On 3/23/2022 2:04 PM, Bill Armstrong wrote:

This conversation, sure makes me glad I bought a Grizzly!
:)

Mine was free for helping a guy clean out his shop after 3 (yes , 3) giant oak trees fell on it . I don't even know what brand it is (it's kinda metallic green where it still has paint), but it cuts adequately square for me . I usually use 10/14 M42 blades , unless cutting thin sections , then I go to an 18t carbon steel blade .
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On Wed, Mar 23, 2022 at 03:01 PM, John Vreede wrote:

I can answer MarkK's wondering about the angle of the teeth to the workpiece at the end of the cut, from experience.? It's actually opposite to how you figured it.? One of my saws finishes the cut almost dead parallel to the vice table before dropping about 1/8" into the slot at the end of the cut.? On wide pieces (4"+) in steel the blade has stalled just before part-off on a number of occasions. When I lifted the sawframe out of? the cut, there was a neat row of holes where all the teeth had punched through the last remaining bit at once, which?caused the blade to stop dead, and stall the motor!?

It actually needs a bit of angle, so that the teeth cut across the bottom of the workpiece normally (being held up by the solid remaining triangle of work). Then with the full bow weight on the teeth?cutting the last remaining bit, the motor still has enough torque?to tear through it, to separate the off-cut. In fact, for wide cuts, the saw cuts quite a bit faster if you can arrange for the teeth to angle across the workpiece all the way through the cut (like propping up the workpiece under its front edge) - jv?

That's good to know, and explains why no one has really complained about the angle as a blade-life issue.

Thanks,
Mark

Free, is a very good price! A better price than I paid for my Grizzly saw no doubt!

I'm happy with it. I adjusted it when I got it, and have had to adjust the tracking a couple times, as it vibrates loose over time. I've replaced all of the guide bearings, and he motor finally started giving out last years, so I replaced it with an American made model. I'm sure I killed it, by sawing for hours on end on some big projects, and getting the motor so hot I couldn't lay a finger on it.

I cut mostly alloys, like 1045 & 4140Q&T, and 304, & 316 stainless steels, so I run nothing but 10/14 bi-metal as well. I could cut aluminum, and the bronzes I use more effeciently with other blades, and have, but do fine running nothing but the 10/14's.

Other Bill

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Electrical equipment running at rated is often near 40c, or higher which is indeed too hot to comfortably touch.
Much is rated for a 30c RISE in a 40c ambient.




Jim Klessig
Senior Power Systems Engineer

Phone +1 707.497.9611
Jim.Klessig@... | Connect with us at ERS.vertiv.com

Chinese made motors, are highly overrated. That's why I replaced it with a USA made model.

The new motor I have now, doesn't get too hot to touch, even with long run times.

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Well, I do know that the Chinese motor that came on my Grizzly, is poor, and is overrated. No debate on that.

Whether Grizzly spec'd it or not, or blindly approved it, is irrelevant. Shame on them if they did. Double shame on them if they still do. We live in a price driven market, so that's the driving factor of why it had what it had.

The price of my particular Grizzly band saw, has more than doubled, so maybe a better motor is part of that increase. I don't know, and it's also irrelevant to me. I own a saw.....with a good motor....now.

I replaced it with a US made motor, which, is actually rated and performs as advertised. The Chinese motor was and did not. Other Chinese motors I have been around, have not been much better. That doesn't mean they can't make a good motor. It means the motors on these saws are not.

Simple as that!

Other Bill

I don't know that?Chinese made motors are necessarily?poor or overrated, you just get what you pay for (sometimes less!).?

Remember it's the American parent company that specified the motor on the Grizzly and?HF .? They chose to advertise its horsepower?as power output, as Grizzly used to (not sure now), or maximum motor-current?x voltage converted to horsepower, so is power input as HF do (and thus is overrated by 100-200%).

Chinese?made stuff can be very well made or very poorly made, depending on how much the customer is willing to pay.? Looking back to when I was a child in the 1950's; 'Made in Japan' was a by-word for 'crappy' but not now.? I think the Chinese made stuff is better than the Japanese stuff was, or Taiwanese or Korean stuff for that?matter, at an equivalent stage of that country's industrial development.

The running temperature?of a motor, as Jim indicated, is highly variable.? It is specified according to the temperature rating of the insulation around the wire in the motor winding, called 'winding insulation class' or just 'class' on the motor plate.? The following classes are recognised.

Winding Insulation Class	Max Temperature °C	Max Temperature °F
A	105	221
E (IEC motors only)	120	248
B*	130	266
F*	155	311
H	180	356

* most common industrial motor classes.

Where the motor is rated to run continuously, it can operate indefinitely below its max operating temperature given by its class..

My 1987 saw had a?Class?A motor which burned out and was replaced with a?TEFC class F,?the other two (yr2000 and 2020) are Open class E motors.

Old Class A motors had relatively poor insulation on the wire, that broke down above 105C?(220F), so they necessarily had thicker wire (i.e. more copper) to keep the temperature?down and so weighed much more than higher classes of motor. but you can still burn yourself on a Class A motor operating within its normal parameters.?

Modern TEFC (totally enclosed fan cooled) motors are generally class F or H and you'll burn yourself very quickly on these, even operating at relatively low power outputs, and they can run all day at over 300F!?

Mnfr's are always trying to get more out of less, and one of the more recent innovations?is copper coated aluminium wire for the windings.? Not sure how this will pan out in the long run. but aluminium has almost as high heat and electrical conductivity as copper at 1/3 the weight and inertia, so it will find a place.

American made, or Chinese made, they run at the temperature dictated by the actual load, run time and their winding insulation class - jv

On Thu, Mar 24, 2022 at 1:12 PM Bill Armstrong <bill_1955@...> wrote:

Chinese made motors, are highly overrated. That's why I replaced it with
a USA made model.

The new motor I have now, doesn't get too hot to touch, even with long
run times.

On 3/23/2022 5:09 PM, Jim.Klessig@... via wrote:
> Electrical equipment running at rated is often near 40c, or higher which is indeed too hot to comfortably touch.
> Much is rated for a 30c RISE in a 40c ambient.
>
>
>
>
> Jim Klessig
> Senior Power Systems Engineer
>
> Phone +1 707.497.9611
> Jim.Klessig@...? |? Connect with us at
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Bill Armstrong
> Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2022 4:36 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [4x6bandsaw] Mysterious shift in saw alignment
>
> CAUTION: This email originated from outside of Vertiv. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.
>
>
> Free, is a very good price! A better price than I paid for my Grizzly saw no doubt!
>
> I'm happy with it. I adjusted it when I got it, and have had to adjust the tracking a couple times, as it vibrates loose over time. I've replaced all of the guide bearings, and he motor finally started giving out last years, so I replaced it with an American made model. I'm sure I killed it, by sawing for hours on end on some big projects, and getting the motor so hot I couldn't lay a finger on it.
>
> I cut mostly alloys, like 1045 & 4140Q&T, and 304, & 316 stainless steels, so I run nothing but 10/14 bi-metal as well. I could cut aluminum, and the bronzes I use more effeciently with other blades, and have, but do fine running nothing but the 10/14's.
>
> Other Bill
>
>
> On 3/23/2022 2:56 PM, Terry Coombs wrote:
>> On 3/23/2022 2:04 PM, Bill Armstrong wrote:
>>> This conversation, sure makes me glad I bought a Grizzly!
>>>
>>> :)
>>>
>>
>>? ? Mine was free for helping a guy clean out his shop after 3 (yes , 3)
>> giant oak trees fell on it . I don't even know what brand it is (it's
>> kinda metallic green where it still has paint), but it cuts adequately
>> square for me . I usually use 10/14 M42 blades , unless cutting thin
>> sections , then I go to an 18t carbon steel blade .
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开云体育

Glad to hear it cuts well George.
Your 1HP motor will never heat up on a 4x6, as its only running at 1/3 to 1/2 the load the motor is capable of.
You'd think that Consumer Guarantee legislation would stop the dishonest practice of inferring that input power is the same as output power.?
It works like this:?
The maker states the maximum motor current, so you can spec the supply wiring (I think that's law some places).??
Funny how LOTS of motors just happen to draw 6.8Amps at 110Volts.
So the power drawn from the mains supply is 6.8*110 = 748Watts?
Oh but - WOW -? there are 746W in a horsepower - our motor is 1HP

In reality induction motors are somewhere between 30% and 60% efficient; the more cheaply made, the lower the efficiency.
So a claimed 1HP motor drawing 6.8 amps might deliver less than 1/3HP
I don't think you'll see motors stating input power as output on their motor plate, because motor manufacturers are bound by NEMA and IEC rules to state output (horsepower is a 'rate of doing work' (ie. its output) not 'rate of consuming power (input).?
But brand owners are not bound like this.?
Check for yourselves The Grizzly 4x6 G0622 (last old style 4x6 that with Grizzly brand - see manual in the Files section) claims it has a 3/4HP motor and its draws 5A maximum current (5x110=550W input Watts, divide by 746 = 0.737 - near enough 3/4'HP' so is clearly input power), while their replacement 3/4HP motor ( draws 10.3A @ 110V (over double!).
Yet even Grizzly are inconsistent with their bandsaws.? The Grizzly G9742 swivel-base version (?which has the same sawframe (but maybe not motor) claims a 1/2HP motor that draws 8.8A @ 110V (= 968W - much more likely)??
Shame and double shame alright Bill, on all those who cheat - jv

开云体育

I think any of the companies selling low costs saws out there, with China made motors, cheat. There are different grades of cheating, but they cheat.

Back to you get what you pay for, and they are manufactured to varying specs, of what is acceptable, and what is not. For most hobbyists, a Horror Freight, or similar, is fine. It's not seeing the use of a fab shop, and for a guys home shop, with a little tweaking, not a biggie. We don't mind tweaking stuff to save a buck.

If you have more money, buy a Jet. When I bought my Grizzly swivel-base saw, a Jet just like it, cost over double. The Jet, has a motor made in Taiwan, like my Jet knee mill, and my Jet table saw. Higher quality. You pay for it.

Or, you can splurge. Howzabout a Wellsaw, or a DoAll? Quality gear, all I have been around, but, for a hobbyist, hard to justify the cost for occasional use.

So.....a low cost saw is a crap shoot. The chance you take. Not much you can tweak on the motor you get with it. It may last....and maybe not. :)

Other Bill

Glad to hear it cuts well George.
Your 1HP motor will never heat up on a 4x6, as its only running at 1/3 to 1/2 the load the motor is capable of.
You'd think that Consumer Guarantee legislation would stop the dishonest practice of inferring that input power is the same as output power.?
It works like this:?
The maker states the maximum motor current, so you can spec the supply wiring (I think that's law some places).??
Funny how LOTS of motors just happen to draw 6.8Amps at 110Volts.
So the power drawn from the mains supply is 6.8*110 = 748Watts?
Oh but - WOW -? there are 746W in a horsepower - our motor is 1HP

In reality induction motors are somewhere between 30% and 60% efficient; the more cheaply made, the lower the efficiency.
So a claimed 1HP motor drawing 6.8 amps might deliver less than 1/3HP
I don't think you'll see motors stating input power as output on their motor plate, because motor manufacturers are bound by NEMA and IEC rules to state output (horsepower is a 'rate of doing work' (ie. its output) not 'rate of consuming power (input).?
But brand owners are not bound like this.?
Check for yourselves The Grizzly 4x6 G0622 (last old style 4x6 that with Grizzly brand - see manual in the Files section) claims it has a 3/4HP motor and its draws 5A maximum current (5x110=550W input Watts, divide by 746 = 0.737 - near enough 3/4'HP' so is clearly input power), while their replacement 3/4HP motor ( draws 10.3A @ 110V (over double!).
Yet even Grizzly are inconsistent with their bandsaws.? The Grizzly G9742 swivel-base version (?which has the same sawframe (but maybe not motor) claims a 1/2HP motor that draws 8.8A @ 110V (= 968W - much more likely)??
Shame and double shame alright Bill, on all those who cheat - jv

开云体育

The motor on my Harbor Freight 4 x 6 lasted about 2 years, but it saw quite a bit of use in that time.? Rather than buy a new motor I put the money toward a Grizzly swivel base saw like you Bill and gave the old saw to a friend who put a new motor on it. The Grizzly is a really great tool.? I felt as much as I used the HF saw that I got my moneys worth and my friend is happy with it.

Paul