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After taking care of my blade tracking problem and doing some cutting I discovered a problem I haven't seen before.? The saw blade was not dropping all the way down, to the point that the work pieces weren't being completely severed.? It didn't take much troubleshooting to find the source of the problem:? the frame now is cocked over enough that it's hitting the base and then stops cutting.? I did a "drag test" where I placed a plastic bag on the base, dropped the frame down and then pulled the bag to see where it was hanging up.? It turned out to be those metal brackets around the on/off switch.? I was able to get the frame to drop low enough to completely sever stuff I'm cutting by grinding notches in the frame (and grinding down those brackets a little bit), but I'm baffled by WHY my saw would start exhibiting this problem -- I've had it for close to 10 years and this is the first time I've encountered this problem.
Anyone have any ideas on what could be going on?? The saw hasn't been knocked over or abused, and the pivot doesn't have much play.? Certainly not enough to cause my problem.
Mark
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On Thu, Mar 17, 2022 at 06:17 PM, Mark Kimball wrote:
Anyone have any ideas on what could be going on?? The saw hasn't been knocked over or abused, and the pivot doesn't have much play.? Certainly not enough to cause my problem.
I had the same issue. More than likely the blade guides were deflecting the blade downward before. When you adjusted them correctly the blade was higher up. I went through the exact same problem and even tried grinding part of the frame where the switch was to get it to drop a little further. I made a 1/4" think plate that sits under the vise that elevates the stock so that you can run the blade guides in the correct position. I have a youtube channel and a web store. I sell these plate but if you have the means to make a plate I also have a template you can go by.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1OwFtZDsW_IjrLGnYdh1yr8x0jO8phkHE/view?usp=sharing?
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I understand what you're saying, but that's not the problem.? The reason I believe that is because the bottom blade guide normally has to be set just a little under its maximum height, else it contacts the base behind the fixed jaw.? On my saw I can have the blade guide all the way up and it still is proud of the base.? It's almost like the rear of the frame now is sitting higher than it used to.? Something's shifted, but what???? How???
I think I will need to take some photos of the saw and post them.
Mark
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First off just let me say I'm sorry group most of you here probably don't know me. I've been here for about 20 years and owned a welding service in Austin. I bought my first Harbor Freight 4 x 6 bandsaw somewhere around 1992 I still have it it runs okay it's not great but it runs okay. So I do have some experience with them I haven't had this exact problem but as a welder I can tell you the cast iron used in these bandsaws is not very high quality, or stress relieved so over time the cast-iron can crack and change its shape. that's why cast iron that high quality lathes are made out of. was left to set out for fifty years or so, so that it would stabilize and quit moving this may not be the cause of your problems. Though as it's actually fairly easy to torque these saws out of shape but assuming everything's just set up perfectly, they can still move on their own over time...
That's a great thing about groups like this what's the problems identified if get offered lots of solutions good luck.
Roger Hart ?:^)
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I had the same issue. When you get the?saw to track and?cut nicely, the frame hits the?bed and it won't make a complete cut. When you adjusted the?guides so it will?complete the?cut, the blade pops off the?wheels.? I got tired of tinkering it. I lifted the workpiece?off the bed with a piece of 1/4" stock that is smaller?than the workpiece so it won't interfere with the vise jaws. Since?my saw doesn't drop straight down either, I've also shimmed the blade side of the stock to?get a more vertically square?cut. I don't regret buying this saw because?the price is really good, but man I just wish they would just put a couple more days into the engineering. I always say I will get a better saw. But at $1000+, I can get a lot?of tooling and stock for all the projects I?won't get to!
Howard
After taking care of my blade tracking problem and doing some cutting I discovered a problem I haven't seen before.? The saw blade was not dropping all the way down, to the point that the work pieces weren't being completely severed.? It didn't take much troubleshooting to find the source of the problem:? the frame now is cocked over enough that it's hitting the base and then stops cutting.? I did a "drag test" where I placed a plastic bag on the base, dropped the frame down and then pulled the bag to see where it was hanging up.? It turned out to be those metal brackets around the on/off switch.? I was able to get the frame to drop low enough to completely sever stuff I'm cutting by grinding notches in the frame (and grinding down those brackets a little bit), but I'm baffled by WHY my saw would start exhibiting this problem -- I've had it for close to 10 years and this is the first time I've encountered this problem.
Anyone have any ideas on what could be going on?? The saw hasn't been knocked over or abused, and the pivot doesn't have much play.? Certainly not enough to cause my problem.
Mark
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On Fri, Mar 18, 2022 at 09:18 AM, Howard Ng wrote:
When you adjusted the?guides so it will?complete the?cut, the blade pops off the?wheels.? I got tired of tinkering it. I lifted the workpiece?off the bed with a piece of 1/4" stock that is smaller?than the workpiece so it won't interfere with the vise jaws.
They definitely had an assembly problem at the factory. Probably a bad setup on a fixture and they drilled the holes for the head pivot point in the wrong place. I've sold a bunch of plates that sit under the vise. I'd have to count but I'd say more than 60 plate. They do the same as you did except it sits under the vice jaws. It has slots the same as the bed.?
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Last night I had a thought about what _might_ have happened, but I need to confirm it.? I remembered that I had? tipped my saw over to open up the gearbox and replace the gear oil (I supported it with a plywood plank at the right height).? This would put some sideways rotational force on the frame, and in the right direction if something in the support arm assembly was loose.? The bed casting isn't all that rigid either so there could have been some flex in there that caused something to shift..? One observation that supports my theory is that, while I was able to adjust the blade guides so the saw cuts pretty square in the vertical plane, the blade clearly is misaligned on the horizontal plane (and the direction is consistent with my problem).....and it WAS properly aligned at one point.
To be more specific, I'm talking about part #121 in my owner's manual for the HF #93762 bandsaw.? There it's called the "left pivot" but it also has been referred to as the "support arm".? The left end of the pivot shaft passes through it and on mine it's secured by a grub screw in the support arm.? Two adjustment/fixing bolts attach it to the frame and the support has two slots in it to permit adjusting the frame so it is horizontally square to the pivot shaft.
More later....
Mark
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You've got it MarkK. Moving the 'Pivot' (as its called) casting (#121) is what has made?your switch hit the?base casting and why it no longer cuts square horizontally.? As I've said many times, the heart of a 4x6 (or any horizontal /vertical bandsaw with a hinge in the middle) is the axis of the turning of?the pivot shaft (the centreline of the hinge, which here-after I'll call the pivot axis).?You figure the effect of every adjustment in relation to the pivot axis. The pivot axis is fixed immovably in the base casting but almost everything?else has some freedom of movement in relation to it.? To cut perfectly square, both horizontally across and vertically down through, the work, the workpiece has to be parallel to the pivot axis? in both plan?view?(looking vertically down) and front elevation (looking across surface of the vice table from the front of the saw)??AND?the blade body (the 1/2" bit above the teeth) has to be square to the pivot axis?in both plan view and front elevation.?? Let's?look at horizontal squareness?first, because this?is where your?switch hitting the base casting came from: Horizontal squareness?comes from looking at the workpiece and blade in plan view only.? - Getting the back of the workpiece parallel to the pivot axis is easy to set by moving the fixed ice jaw and clamping it when it's parallel.This needs to be set parallel as good as you can get it (certainly better than 0.008" (0.2mm) difference in distance from the?pivot shaft to the front face of the vice jaw at each base casting pivot shaft ear). I re-bushed the pivot on the fixed vice jaw and pinned it in this position, (with a taper pin through the vice jaw into the base casting), because you NEVER have to move this again in a properly setup saw cutting square. This returns it to the identical parallel position each time after doing an angle cut.??
- Getting the blade square to the back of the workpiece is more difficult.? This is primarily set from the joint between the the pivot arm casting and the sawframe?(your piece #121 and the sawframe at the back left hand side of the saw).? Slide the pivot?arm casting forward in relation to the sawframe, and when you tighten the bolts the sawframe will pivot left and the switch hits the base casting.? The angle between the blade and the back of the work tightens so this is the way you move it when the angle between the back of the workpiece and the horizontal cut face of the workpiece is obtuse (>90deg). Slid it the other way?of its an acute (<90deg) angle.? ?To get horizontal squareness exact you need to be able to micro-adjust the slip across this joint and the best way is with Rick Sparbers adjustment bolts per the picture attached.? You can get additional adjustment range from this joint by filing?or machining out the bolt slots in the pivot arm.?
- Horizontal squareness is also affected by the adjustment of the clearance between the blade side guide rollers ONLY IF you have eccentrically adjustable rollers?on the inside of the loop of the blade.? This is annoying so I've changed the inside rollers on my machine so they?rotate on concentric mounts, to remove this adjustment.??
And that's it for horizontal squareness, there are no other adjustments?built into the?machine that affect horizontal squareness.? I have a saw where the pivot axis was bored 'not square' across the base casting at the factory, and this has been a real mission to correct, but generally this is OK in most saws
Vertical squareness is a whole other ballgame that doesn't concern?your problem, but basically looks at the parallelism?of the bottom of the workpiece (essentially the surface of the vice table) and the squareness of the blade body to the pivot axis in front elevation only. The squareness of the blade body is just an adjustment, but the parallelism of the vice table to the pivot is built into the machine at manufacture and is very often wrong (upto 2 out of 3 depending on mnfr. I'd guess) and is a major problem to fix. One of the contributors to this is the base casting warping and twisting after machining while it sits in its box (or in your shop), as Roger describes, but the major one is poor machining at the factory that?Mark2 and Howard talked about.? These 2 have to be corrected BEFORE you pin the fixed vice jaw to the base (the 'properly setup saw' caveat in point 1 above). - jv
Last night I had a thought about what _might_ have happened, but I need to confirm it.? I remembered that I had? tipped my saw over to open up the gearbox and replace the gear oil (I supported it with a plywood plank at the right height).? This would put some sideways rotational force on the frame, and in the right direction if something in the support arm assembly was loose.? The bed casting isn't all that rigid either so there could have been some flex in there that caused something to shift..? One observation that supports my theory is that, while I was able to adjust the blade guides so the saw cuts pretty square in the vertical plane, the blade clearly is misaligned on the horizontal plane (and the direction is consistent with my problem).....and it WAS properly aligned at one point.
To be more specific, I'm talking about part #121 in my owner's manual for the HF #93762 bandsaw.? There it's called the "left pivot" but it also has been referred to as the "support arm".? The left end of the pivot shaft passes through it and on mine it's secured by a grub screw in the support arm.? Two adjustment/fixing bolts attach it to the frame and the support has two slots in it to permit adjusting the frame so it is horizontally square to the pivot shaft.
More later....
Mark
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On Fri, Mar 18, 2022 at 01:30 PM, John Vreede wrote:
You've got it MarkK. Moving the 'Pivot' (as its called) casting (#121) is what has made?your switch hit the?base casting and why it no longer cuts square horizontally.?
You are probably correct John. I was thinking he had the same problem I did when he was talking about not making the switch. Fortunately my saw is is level and square but the pivot point it drilled too high. The pictures show my first attempt to make the saw head go down far enough to complete the cut. I ground the upper frame to clear the switch guard and the other picture shows the outboard part of the elevating plate I added. The rest is under the vise jaws and obscured by the blade.
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Those jack screw would be a huge plus if you needed to adjust the horizontal squareness!? I disagree with the eccentric bolt on the blade guide rollers. Its a small amount of movement. Unless maybe your blade guides are made a lot different than mine you can move them where every you want anyway. Mine are a joke really...? they work well but are hard to get right.?
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Yeah the?adjustments are hard to all get right at the same time.?? I've made a conscious attempt to remove unnecessary adjustments or disentangle them, especially where adjusting one thing affects another, and also to control movement of those adjustments. Like: - Removing the inside roller mount eccentrics from side guide rollers to disentangle guide roller clearance?from horizontal squareness .? If I need extra adjustment (and, I agree, you often do), then I file the slots in the Pivot arm casting to?get it.
- Pinning the fixed vice jaw to the base in parallel position to make resetting it, after angle cutting, a cinch.
- Using Ricks trick on the back of the guide assembly bracket to disentangle rear guide roller clearance from the front elevation squareness of the blade body to the vice table (per the pic).? This is a real no-brainer that everyone should do.
- Ricks adjustment screws to control the pivot arm casting to sawframe casting joint for fine horizontal squareness adjustment as already?shown
- Tiny set screws (M3) into both sides of the tongue&groove?joint of the guide-bracket-to-guide-arm, for precise control of the squareness of the blade body to the vice table (per the pic)
?- jv
On Fri, Mar 18, 2022 at 01:30 PM, John Vreede wrote:
You've got it MarkK. Moving the 'Pivot' (as its called) casting (#121) is what has made?your switch hit the?base casting and why it no longer cuts square horizontally.?
You are probably correct John. I was thinking he had the same problem I did when he was talking about not making the switch. Fortunately my saw is is level and square but the pivot point it drilled too high. The pictures show my first attempt to make the saw head go down far enough to complete the cut. I ground the upper frame to clear the switch guard and the other picture shows the outboard part of the elevating plate I added. The rest is under the vise jaws and obscured by the blade.
?
Those jack screw would be a huge plus if you needed to adjust the horizontal squareness!? I disagree with the eccentric bolt on the blade guide rollers. Its a small amount of movement. Unless maybe your blade guides are made a lot different than mine you can move them where every you want anyway. Mine are a joke really...? they work well but are hard to get right.?
? 
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On Fri, Mar 18, 2022 at 07:56 PM, John Vreede wrote:
disentangle
Good choice of words. Respectfully, these are all good adjustment improvements or at the very least "logical" but the the entire blade guide setup is a bit of a guess and a compromise. Like when rotating the blade to vertical along it's center, it's impossible to know if you have deflected the lower part of the blade more than the top. Now throw in the gap between the guide rollers for the weld and you have another variable. The tongue and groove on the guides are not machined and the bar they are mounted on aren't either.? The ideal setup would be to have a blade guide float with a single bolt lock down (similar to the current) but have trunnions that control the rotation of the blade along the center axis. Sort of like a tilt on a table saw blade.?
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I agree with everything you said.? That's what makes these things such a challenge to get right - jv
On Fri, Mar 18, 2022 at 07:56 PM, John Vreede wrote:
disentangle
Good choice of words. Respectfully, these are all good adjustment improvements or at the very least "logical" but the the entire blade guide setup is a bit of a guess and a compromise. Like when rotating the blade to vertical along it's center, it's impossible to know if you have deflected the lower part of the blade more than the top. Now throw in the gap between the guide rollers for the weld and you have another variable. The tongue and groove on the guides are not machined and the bar they are mounted on aren't either.? The ideal setup would be to have a blade guide float with a single bolt lock down (similar to the current) but have trunnions that control the rotation of the blade along the center axis. Sort of like a tilt on a table saw blade.?
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I wasn't able to do everything I wanted to on my bandsaw today, but was able to do some preliminary stuff.? The first thing I wanted to do was to set the fixed jaw so it 's parallel to the pivot shaft, using Rick Sparber's method with a 1-2-3 block and some other bits.? The thing with these saws is that they have so much adjustment range that it is all too easy to end up on an extreme that interferes with some other adjustment...so I wanted to first establish some kind of baseline.
I was happy to find that the fixed jaw actually wasn't too far off.? And after minor adjustments to the fixed jaw,? I got fairly decent alignment on the horizontal axis when I did some test cuts -- but the frame still was contacting the base and preventing it from dropping low enough to completely sever work material.? It looks like the only way to get the frame to drop all the way down is to move it over so it clears the base enough (by tweaking the two bolts on the support arm):? but that will mean the horizontal cut axis will NOT be perpendicular to the pivot.? Rotating the fixed jaw so it's perpendicular to the blade is not all that big a deal, so maybe I'm overthinking this.? It won't take much adjustment to the vise, and, given the fact that adjusting it to get square cuts is a common approach, it appears it's in my bandsaw's near future as well.
Mark
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Still not sure why your saw suddenly won't cut all the way through - did you disassemble it at some point? The left-right position of the saw frame is set primarily by the spacer on the pivot shaft between the saw frame and base casting on the RHS of the saw so that, in?plan view, the blade runs in the centre of the gap between infeed and outfeed tables and parallel to the length of the gap. The length of this spacer varies according to manufacturer.? My old UC115 has a 15mm (~5/8") long spacer? while the yr2000 RF is only 8mm (5/16"). On the last saw (that?had seriously?misaligned holes for the pivot shaft in the base ears), I had to remove the spacer altogether, to get it to work.? A tell-tale of mis-aligned?drilling as above, is that the?blade does not run parallel to the slot between the infeed and outfeed tables.? If? (looking vertically down) the blade runs at an angle to this slot when the sawframe is resting horizontally, then this may be the reason why your sawframe now hits the base near the switch, especially if in the past the slip joint between the pivot arm casting and the sawframe was set so the sawframe did miss the base casting near the switch and horizontal squareness was achieved by adjusting the fixed vice jaw square to the blade instead of the other (proper) way round.?? If the blade is parallel to the slot but to the left of centre, then the spacer is too short. Even?If it's?parallel and central, just make a longer spacer for your machine to shift the sawframe to the right, then pack out the resultant gap between the pivot arm casting and the sawframe at the LHS rear. The blade not central?in the slot is no big deal and upsets nothing. If the blade angles across the slot now you've set the vice jaw parallel to the pivot shaft and adjusted the LHS rear joint so it cuts horizontally?square, then likely the pivot shaft holes in your sawframe or base casting are not drilled correctly. and that's a big deal to fix.? You cannot set the vice jaw at an angle to the pivot to compensate because then?the vertical cut cannot be made to cut square and there is no way to compensate for that (its complicated but the blade moving in 3-dimensional space just doesn't move vertically straight down anymore).? If that's?the case, just set the fixed vice jaw parallel to the pivot shaft and change the spacer length until the sawframe clears the base and it cuts full depth and accept the blade angling across the slot is going to look funny, but at least will be capable of cutting square in both directions - jv
I wasn't able to do everything I wanted to on my bandsaw today, but was able to do some preliminary stuff.? The first thing I wanted to do was to set the fixed jaw so it 's parallel to the pivot shaft, using Rick Sparber's method with a 1-2-3 block and some other bits.? The thing with these saws is that they have so much adjustment range that it is all too easy to end up on an extreme that interferes with some other adjustment...so I wanted to first establish some kind of baseline.
I was happy to find that the fixed jaw actually wasn't too far off.? And after minor adjustments to the fixed jaw,? I got fairly decent alignment on the horizontal axis when I did some test cuts -- but the frame still was contacting the base and preventing it from dropping low enough to completely sever work material.? It looks like the only way to get the frame to drop all the way down is to move it over so it clears the base enough (by tweaking the two bolts on the support arm):? but that will mean the horizontal cut axis will NOT be perpendicular to the pivot.? Rotating the fixed jaw so it's perpendicular to the blade is not all that big a deal, so maybe I'm overthinking this.? It won't take much adjustment to the vise, and, given the fact that adjusting it to get square cuts is a common approach, it appears it's in my bandsaw's near future as well.
Mark
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John,
No, the saw hasn't been dissasembled -- at least, not other than removing the blade guide hardware to examine it.? Nothing associated with the pivot shaft -- spacer included -- has been changed, until I started messing around with the M10 bolts that attach the support arm to the sawframe.? BTW, the location of that joint kind of baffles me in terms its supposed function? (to adjust the horizontal alignment of the sawframe relative to the pivot shaft)? and the geometry, because the right-hand pivot joint should oppose rotation around it.? The direction of adjustment also doesn't look like it is purely on the horizontal axis, either? I have to conclude that the adjustment done there is normally expected to be quite small, certainly not enough to address my problem.
So I'm still left being flummoxed and frustrated by what's going on with my saw.? Something clearly has shifted, but where the heck is it??
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On Sun, Mar 20, 2022 at 12:51 PM, Mark Kimball wrote:
The direction of adjustment also doesn't look like it is purely on the horizontal axis, either? I have to conclude that the adjustment done there is normally expected to be quite small, certainly not enough to address my problem.
Yes I agree, the amount of adjustment at this point would be limited by the clearance of the pivot point. However, it would not take much movement in this area to make a significant change at the switch end of the saw. I'd say the movement at the switch end would be about 4 times what you move at the back of the saw. Also, if the jack bolts are installed as indicated in the picture that John posted the adjustment would be purely horizontal (looking down on the saw it would move the switch end of the head left or right. I have no idea what might have moved but if you are seeing a horizontal change near the switch I'm thinking this back adjustment is the only place that will effect this.?
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Mark2's comments are spot on, it takes very little fore and aft movement at the slip joint to move the head of the sawframe sideways quite a bit. Can you give some measurements:
- How much does the sawframe have to move sideways to clear the base at the switch?
- Is the run of the blade between the guides parallel to the slot in the base casting?
- Is the blade central in the slot, if not by how much and which way?
It's worrying not to know why the change occurred, but if after due consideration you can't find the reason, I'd just increase the length of the spacer and have done with it.? These no down side to this and its reversible when you do finally find out why - jv
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Hi all Just re-reading this thread to see if there's something I've missed and it occurs to me that MarkK has missed and important point in msg 16008 when he said: ? ? "Rotating the fixed jaw so it's perpendicular to the blade is not all that big a deal, so maybe I'm overthinking this.? It won't take much adjustment to the vise, and, given the fact that adjusting it to get square cuts is a common approach, it appears it's in my bandsaw's near future as well." Implicit in my statements in msg 16001 about "the heart of a 4x6...." being in the conditions of parallelism and squareness relationships of the workpiece and saw blade to the pivot axis, are 3 things I didn't say but should have:? - ?If these conditions do not exist, the saw will NOT cut both horizontally?and vertically square through a workpiece at the same time.??
- There is no way to compensate for any of these conditions not being met.? You can get one axis (either horizontal or vertical) square but not the other.?
- Meet these conditions and you still have to ensure the dynamics?of the teeth cutting through the workpiece will allow them to cut straight, before final square cutting in both axes is achieved. This is mostly sufficient tension in the blade, and getting the blade body to point square to the bottom of the workpiece (if the blade is in good condition) or at some angle to the direction of travel if it is worn more on one side than the other.?
These might seem like arrogant statements, but unfortunately they're true and I've proven them in experiments to?try and find any way to compensate, but to no avail.??
Mark can't adjust the sawframe and vice fixed jaw as he proposed in the quote above without compromising the vertical squareness.??That's?where just moving the whole sawframe sideways by changing the spacer length will work because it maintains those parallelism and squareness conditions
Sorry for any misunderstandings- jv?
I wasn't able to do everything I wanted to on my bandsaw today, but was able to do some preliminary stuff.? The first thing I wanted to do was to set the fixed jaw so it 's parallel to the pivot shaft, using Rick Sparber's method with a 1-2-3 block and some other bits.? The thing with these saws is that they have so much adjustment range that it is all too easy to end up on an extreme that interferes with some other adjustment...so I wanted to first establish some kind of baseline.
I was happy to find that the fixed jaw actually wasn't too far off.? And after minor adjustments to the fixed jaw,? I got fairly decent alignment on the horizontal axis when I did some test cuts -- but the frame still was contacting the base and preventing it from dropping low enough to completely sever work material.? It looks like the only way to get the frame to drop all the way down is to move it over so it clears the base enough (by tweaking the two bolts on the support arm):? but that will mean the horizontal cut axis will NOT be perpendicular to the pivot.? Rotating the fixed jaw so it's perpendicular to the blade is not all that big a deal, so maybe I'm overthinking this.? It won't take much adjustment to the vise, and, given the fact that adjusting it to get square cuts is a common approach, it appears it's in my bandsaw's near future as well.
Mark
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On Sun, Mar 20, 2022 at 04:37 PM, John Vreede wrote:
?If these conditions do not exist, the saw will NOT cut both horizontally?and vertically square through a workpiece at the same time.??
This is confusing to think about but also correct. I think I need to do a new video which includes the importance of the back jaw.?
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Loosening the M10 screws on the support bracket, part #121, and pushing the sawframe over as far as it could go -- to the point where the blade was close to hitting the outfeed support nearest the front of the saw -- still did not permit the sawframe to drop down much more.? Pretty strange.
The only way I could get the blade to get anywhere near parallel to the outfeed "gap" was to place a .010" shim between the back of the support and sawframe.? Tightening the rear M10 bolt without it invariably caused the sawframe's horizontal alignment to rotate counter-clockwise (looking down at it), resulting in significant misalignment relative to the outfeed support.? This is after loosening both bolts, so it's impossible to say just how much the saw had been messed with at the factory to get it to cut anywhere close to square.? That's one of the frustrating aspects of these saws.
I had wondered if the pivot shaft had somehow bent, but I loosened the grub screw on the left side and rotated the shaft about 90 degrees and re-checked the alignment.? No change.
The pivot shaft can't move to the left or right because it's got a spring pin on the right of the bearing ears (preventing motion to the left), and it's captured by the grub screw on the left side, which would prevent motion to the right (due to the bearing ears on the left side).
Still baffled by what's going on....
-Mark
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Mark
John Vreede
