Re: Spurs, waterfall and board revisions
On Wed, Aug 23, 2023 at 01:06 PM, Ron Liekens wrote:
- The sometimes big spurs coming showing en the centre of the waterfall. These are caused by the imbalance of the I/Q signal. This is normally calculated in the software to and have a lesser impact on the reception and waterfall. Any chance of improving on this within the firmware or by hack?
The peak in the center is not always DC skew. Sometimes it's really low frequency noise. There is a DC filter inside the software, but it is fixed. Therefore, this peak is different on different bands. Perhaps in my firmware I implement it so that it can be individually suppressed on different bands.
A faster speed will be out of the question as it will put a (too) big load on the CPU processor. This can also be changed in the Firmware without much effort
Calculating the FFT for this processor is a negligible burden (CPU usage 1-2%). The main problem with the slow spectrum is that digitization takes place on the side of the BB processor (STM32) and then the signal is sent to the main processor to calculate the spectrum and display it. In this case, the signal from BB comes in pieces with holes between them. Therefore, there is no way to speed up the spectrum, there is simply not enough data.
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Spurs, waterfall and board revisions
Hi,
I'm awaiting the delivery of my X6100, and I am gathering as much info as possible from the internet.
Being an SDR user since 2004 (many receivers) and until recently an Elad FMS-DUO and still owning the SDR TRX-DUO, I wanted a portable SDR (hybrid) tranceiver.
Some x6100 things are not really to my liking.
- The sometimes big spurs coming showing en the centre of the waterfall. These are caused by the imbalance of the I/Q signal. This is normally calculated in the software to and have a lesser impact on the reception and waterfall. Any chance of improving on this within the firmware or by hack?
- The waterfall is way under performing by what I use on a daily basis with SDRconsole. I know that the 800x400 screen can not perform miracles. Still, the contrast between the strongest and weakest signals is very low. I experience that a 50 dBm dynamic range will offer the best performance, and this in combination with a better colour choice of the different grades can offer a huge improvement in spotting small intelligent signals. A faster speed will be out of the question as it will put a (too) big load on the CPU processor. This can also be changed in the Firmware without much effort.
- Are there any of the boards inside the x6100 that had an upgrade since its introduction 2 years ago? Maybe things are better screened, or so? And is the battery autonomy improved anyhow.
Any thoughts or info are welcome?
73' Ron Liekens
ON2RON
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Hello!
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On Wed, Aug 23, 2023 at 08:54 AM, Chuc wrote:
I've yet to make my first contact, but did notice that the "Birdies" run wild on all the bands that I"ve listened too so far.
This transceiver has a fairly strong level of self-interference. And it depends on many factors. Enabling WiFi/BLE increases the level of interference. Power from an external battery also increases the level of interference. Even a USB connection increases this.
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Unless your power meter can show peak power, this is completely normal. The human voice has a very high peak to average power ratio, so a power meter that reads average power will show only a few Watt when the x6100 is set to 10 W SSB output.
Greetings,
Rainer DG1SMD
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Let me say that I am new to HF, this being my first Rig and not sure what are the pros and cons to switching to R1CBU firmware.? I've yet to make my first contact, but did notice that the "Birdies" run wild on all the bands that I"ve listened too so far.? Heard W1AW last night on 40, but couldn't make the return trip on 5 watts.? A couple of questions based on observations; first connecting the radio to a 48ah battery allowed me to set power to max 10w, but using a digital power meter on SSB it doesn't really show anywhere near 5w.? What's up with that? Secondly, there are 10m repeaters out there that don't appear to require a PL to trigger, so why would anyone need a PL on the radio? I apologise for not making a new thread, second thought that maybe this would have been better as a stand alone thread.
73
kd6aej/ag
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Re: New radio, heat mitigation
Thanks Gary
Nice stand and fan?
73 Rob G3RCE?
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Re: Voice Messages - low power - a known firmware bug?
I have created saved memory messages for SSB. ?I have tried both LSB & USB with the same result.
Recorded message is CQ CQ CQ...
While I can replay the message and hear it clearly, TX and the power levels appear insignificant.
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Re: New radio, heat mitigation
Printed the stand out - pretty nice. Thanks.
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Re: Voice Messages - low power - a known firmware bug?
What voice modes did you try? I tried SSB and noticed this but thought I was making a mistake.?
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Voice Messages - low power - a known firmware bug?
On the pre wfview version, my voice transmits at 5w peaks as it should. ?But my voice messages peak at maybe 1 watt. ?I have Re-recorded to ensure this was not a factor and the same result occurs.
Is this a known bug in the OEM firmware? ?While I intend to upgrade to the newest version, I was waiting until a few YouTube vids showed more complete use of it.
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Re: Anyone found a repeatable way to recover from loss of power output?
Hi Scot Thanks for all of the info Good that you found the problem with your radio, Dave?
Hi Dave,
there are components on the heatsink side. A LDMOS thermal sensor is actually sat butt up to the heatsink. I didn't see it before the failure, but it looks like there was a black gasket around the PCB aperture. There was some solder like blobs and frazzle all over the back of the FET. The whole area was sticky like treacle. So, I have no way of knowing how Xiegu fitted it or with what technology they bonded it.?
I read the NXP technical papers on their Plastic OMP FET RF devices, that related to soldering and bolt down techniques. They cited using TGON 850 Graphite film as an alternative to baking in down and actually recommended it. They discusses the importance of the chemical mixtures to prevent oxidisation etc etc..?
The IC Graphite is a more pure form of the TGOM as I see it. With a temperature rating of 400oC which is more than enough.?
The main factor (I think) will be applying sufficient even pressure to the device during soldering the main DRAIN / GATE tabs.?
Thanks
Scot
The source of my reference is?
Freescale Semiconductor
Application Note
Bolt Down Mounting Method for High Power RF Transistors and RFICs in Over-Molded Plastic Packages
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Re: Anyone found a repeatable way to recover from loss of power output?
Hi Dave, there are components on the heatsink side. A LDMOS thermal sensor is actually sat butt up to the heatsink. I didn't see it before the failure, but it looks like there was a black gasket around the PCB aperture. There was some solder like blobs and frazzle all over the back of the FET. The whole area was sticky like treacle. So, I have no way of knowing how Xiegu fitted it or with what technology they bonded it.? I read the NXP technical papers on their Plastic OMP FET RF devices, that related to soldering and bolt down techniques. They cited using TGON 850 Graphite film as an alternative to baking in down and actually recommended it. They discusses the importance of the chemical mixtures to prevent oxidisation etc etc..? The IC Graphite is a more pure form of the TGOM as I see it. With a temperature rating of 400oC which is more than enough.? The main factor (I think) will be applying sufficient even pressure to the device during soldering the main DRAIN / GATE tabs.? Thanks Scot The source of my reference is?
Freescale Semiconductor
Application Note
Bolt Down Mounting Method for High Power RF Transistors and RFICs in Over-Molded Plastic Packages
 
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Re: Anyone found a repeatable way to recover from loss of power output?
Hi Scot I have not opened one of these radios, could you use a hot plate to help the heat flow or is there components on the side were the heat sink block is, I once used a swan multi cooker as a hot plate to help de-solder? the transistors of a heat sink block for the outputs in a FT817, and it worked, I now have the correct tools, hot plate, bag rework station, heat top and bottom, Thanks Dave 2E0DMB
There IS a LDMOS MCP9700 thermal sensor on the heatsink of the X6100. The output FET in my radio lost contact from th heatsink die to baked solder between the SRC and Heatsink.? When removed it was boiled and full of goop...?
I machined that off and pressure mounted it to the heatsink and the radio came back to life.
These output sets are reflow baked on a jig and an oven at manufacture form what I can deduce from reading and observation of manufacturing specs for the FET.?
I have ordered some very expensive IC Cooling IC Graphite heatsink material. This is recommended by NXP semiconductors who make the actual final output. transistor.?
My radio is working, now with the above remove/clean and re fit, but I feel it will fail hence I ordered a new original final output and the graphite heatsink material.?
I will let you know!
Thanks
Scot
M0RWV
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Re: Anyone found a repeatable way to recover from loss of power output?
There IS a LDMOS MCP9700 thermal sensor on the heatsink of the X6100. The output FET in my radio lost contact from th heatsink die to baked solder between the SRC and Heatsink. ?When removed it was boiled and full of goop...?
I machined that off and pressure mounted it to the heatsink and the radio came back to life.
These output sets are reflow baked on a jig and an oven at manufacture form what I can deduce from reading and observation of manufacturing specs for the FET.?
I have ordered some very expensive IC Cooling IC Graphite heatsink material. This is recommended by NXP semiconductors who make the actual final output. transistor.?
My radio is working, now with the above remove/clean and re fit, but I feel it will fail hence I ordered a new original final output and the graphite heatsink material.?
I will let you know!
Thanks
Scot
M0RWV
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SOME INPUT POWER MEASUREMENTS AT VARIOUS POWER SUPPLY SETTINGS FOR MY X6100
OME INPUT POWER MEASUREMENTS AT VARIOUS POWER SUPPLY SETTINGS FOR MY X6100
I wanted to get a feel for why my then new (in mid-2022) X6100 was getting so warm and hot. I decided to measure the current draw at various external power supply voltages. My X6100¡¯s output was connected to a SWR / wattmeter and then to a dummy load. When in the transmit mode, I used the CW mode.
My general theory is that the power going into the X6100 (which is the volts x current) is the power in heat that must be dissipated. Hence the rigs¡¯ temperature rise noticed.
Note when the X6100 is actually transmitting CW at some power setting then the RF output power goes to the dummy load that I¡¯ve used and thus reduces the power in the X6100 that ends up being heat that must be dissipated. My table below does not adjust for this. For example, my table shows 40 watts going into the X6100 at 13.8 volts when generating 10 watts of CW. But the power actually ending as heat in the radio is 40 ¨C 10 = 30 watts. At 9 volts it would be about 17 watts. Also note that if some actual CW code was being sent, then the actual signals duty cycle would reduce this current and power by about whatever the signal¡¯s duty cycle was.
My testing was using simple on / off CW mode. No doubt that a more complex mode of SSB would be dramatically different depending on the actual duty cycle of the modulation and the transmit / receive duty cycle .. Be it speech or something like FT8.
My overall conclusion is that reducing the external power supply voltage powering the X6100 can significantly reduce the power that ends up as heat that must be dissipated by the radio.
Below is a table of the data that I compiled along with some additional conclusions that I see.
Gary KE8WO
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Re: New radio, heat mitigation
With the way I set this up I have part of the airflow that also goes over the bottom heatsink, by design. All sides of the 6100 are now keeping equally cool even @ 13.8V. I didnt want to go crazy with heatsinks, been there done that when I had a KX3 which had cooling issues also.
I am at a happy medium now between the size of heatsinks and keeping the 6100 nice and cool.
--
Gary Mitchelson
NC3Z/4 Pamlico County, NC FM15
NC AHIMT COML
SHARES NCS997
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Re: New radio, heat mitigation
Gary
Best is to cool the radio at the bottom, as the back side is not really a part of the internal heatsink. Besides cooling also lowering the inoutvoltage to 10,5V? is advised because a part of the heat is generated by the internal (lineair) 9V voltage regulator.
https://pseudovoice.wordpress.com/2022/09/06/x6100-auxiliary-passive-cooler/
--
Robert
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Re: ALC 100 and NO TX output (AFT5M31N) LDMOS [SOLVED]
Hi Scot Thanks that will be great, Can you take some photos Thanks Dave?
[UPDATE]
The repair is still good after several days however I have read a lot of literature regarding NXP LDMOS RF devices and the techniques used to heatsink these RF FETS.
I appears that the mounting of the output FET is very technical and completed in highly controlled reflow conditions using special jigs and equipment that the home repair does not have access to (even advanced hobbyist)?
I think the issue with my radio was that the soldered (paste or pre-form) had heated up and pumped out. The whole back of the transistor was a mess. It is not practical to reflow the solder as the temperatures required are difficult to administer.
I have obtained an IC Graphite cooling pad from Innovation Cooling, a graphite pad also recommended by NXP in their literature)?
Bolt Down Mounting Method for High Power RF Transistors and RFICs in Over-Molded Plastic Packages
This PDF paper discusses test they carried?out using several paste and solder methods to maximise heat and conductivity to the heatsink and they concluded that TGON 805 graphite was the best mixture of cost and ease/performance.
Although my output FET is working OK, it is likely stressed a lot from the excess eat and mechanical movement and so I will be replacing it with a new genuine AFT5M31N from mouser that has now arrived, along with the IC Graphite material as a heat pad.
I will update the thread when completed.
Thanks, Scot
M0RWV
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Re: ALC 100 and NO TX output (AFT5M31N) LDMOS [SOLVED]
[UPDATE] The repair is still good after several days however I have read a lot of literature regarding NXP LDMOS RF devices and the techniques used to heatsink these RF FETS. I appears that the mounting of the output FET is very technical and completed in highly controlled reflow conditions using special jigs and equipment that the home repair does not have access to (even advanced hobbyist)? I think the issue with my radio was that the soldered (paste or pre-form) had heated up and pumped out. The whole back of the transistor was a mess. It is not practical to reflow the solder as the temperatures required are difficult to administer. I have obtained an IC Graphite cooling pad from Innovation Cooling, a graphite pad also recommended by NXP in their literature)?
Bolt Down Mounting Method for High Power RF Transistors and RFICs in Over-Molded Plastic Packages
This PDF paper discusses test they carried?out using several paste and solder methods to maximise heat and conductivity to the heatsink and they concluded that TGON 805 graphite was the best mixture of cost and ease/performance.
Although my output FET is working OK, it is likely stressed a lot from the excess eat and mechanical movement and so I will be replacing it with a new genuine AFT5M31N from mouser that has now arrived, along with the IC Graphite material as a heat pad.
I will update the thread when completed.
Thanks, Scot
M0RWV
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Re: New radio, heat mitigation
The only thing I found with the back of my X6100 was it was slightly concave so a large heatsink only made contact round the edges, so I replaced that with 15 smaller 20mm x 20mm heatsinks and the difference was noticeable
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The other thing I haven¡¯t seen Mentioned in this thread is how much input voltage affect the heat output
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I run mine when at home at 11v-11.5v from the PSU instead of the standard 13.8v it runs a lot cooler and no difference in power output
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Peter
M0PWX
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From: groups.kc3suw.eycn2 via groups.io
Sent: 18 August 2023 12:07
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [xiegu-x6100] New radio, heat mitigation
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Cooling fins stuck to the back make a big difference. I used these which cover almost the entire back plate.?
Then set the radio on top of this while running and it doesn't even feel warm any more.?
https://a.co/d/2JJsZlV
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Peter M0PWX
