Re: New radio, heat mitigation
Thanks Gary
Nice stand and fan?
73 Rob G3RCE?
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Re: Voice Messages - low power - a known firmware bug?
I have created saved memory messages for SSB. ?I have tried both LSB & USB with the same result.
Recorded message is CQ CQ CQ...
While I can replay the message and hear it clearly, TX and the power levels appear insignificant.
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Re: New radio, heat mitigation
Printed the stand out - pretty nice. Thanks.
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Re: Voice Messages - low power - a known firmware bug?
What voice modes did you try? I tried SSB and noticed this but thought I was making a mistake.?
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Voice Messages - low power - a known firmware bug?
On the pre wfview version, my voice transmits at 5w peaks as it should. ?But my voice messages peak at maybe 1 watt. ?I have Re-recorded to ensure this was not a factor and the same result occurs.
Is this a known bug in the OEM firmware? ?While I intend to upgrade to the newest version, I was waiting until a few YouTube vids showed more complete use of it.
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Re: Anyone found a repeatable way to recover from loss of power output?
Hi Scot Thanks for all of the info Good that you found the problem with your radio, Dave?
Hi Dave,
there are components on the heatsink side. A LDMOS thermal sensor is actually sat butt up to the heatsink. I didn't see it before the failure, but it looks like there was a black gasket around the PCB aperture. There was some solder like blobs and frazzle all over the back of the FET. The whole area was sticky like treacle. So, I have no way of knowing how Xiegu fitted it or with what technology they bonded it.?
I read the NXP technical papers on their Plastic OMP FET RF devices, that related to soldering and bolt down techniques. They cited using TGON 850 Graphite film as an alternative to baking in down and actually recommended it. They discusses the importance of the chemical mixtures to prevent oxidisation etc etc..?
The IC Graphite is a more pure form of the TGOM as I see it. With a temperature rating of 400oC which is more than enough.?
The main factor (I think) will be applying sufficient even pressure to the device during soldering the main DRAIN / GATE tabs.?
Thanks
Scot
The source of my reference is?
Freescale Semiconductor
Application Note
Bolt Down Mounting Method for High Power RF Transistors and RFICs in Over-Molded Plastic Packages
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Re: Anyone found a repeatable way to recover from loss of power output?
Hi Dave, there are components on the heatsink side. A LDMOS thermal sensor is actually sat butt up to the heatsink. I didn't see it before the failure, but it looks like there was a black gasket around the PCB aperture. There was some solder like blobs and frazzle all over the back of the FET. The whole area was sticky like treacle. So, I have no way of knowing how Xiegu fitted it or with what technology they bonded it.? I read the NXP technical papers on their Plastic OMP FET RF devices, that related to soldering and bolt down techniques. They cited using TGON 850 Graphite film as an alternative to baking in down and actually recommended it. They discusses the importance of the chemical mixtures to prevent oxidisation etc etc..? The IC Graphite is a more pure form of the TGOM as I see it. With a temperature rating of 400oC which is more than enough.? The main factor (I think) will be applying sufficient even pressure to the device during soldering the main DRAIN / GATE tabs.? Thanks Scot The source of my reference is?
Freescale Semiconductor
Application Note
Bolt Down Mounting Method for High Power RF Transistors and RFICs in Over-Molded Plastic Packages
 
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Re: Anyone found a repeatable way to recover from loss of power output?
Hi Scot I have not opened one of these radios, could you use a hot plate to help the heat flow or is there components on the side were the heat sink block is, I once used a swan multi cooker as a hot plate to help de-solder? the transistors of a heat sink block for the outputs in a FT817, and it worked, I now have the correct tools, hot plate, bag rework station, heat top and bottom, Thanks Dave 2E0DMB
There IS a LDMOS MCP9700 thermal sensor on the heatsink of the X6100. The output FET in my radio lost contact from th heatsink die to baked solder between the SRC and Heatsink.? When removed it was boiled and full of goop...?
I machined that off and pressure mounted it to the heatsink and the radio came back to life.
These output sets are reflow baked on a jig and an oven at manufacture form what I can deduce from reading and observation of manufacturing specs for the FET.?
I have ordered some very expensive IC Cooling IC Graphite heatsink material. This is recommended by NXP semiconductors who make the actual final output. transistor.?
My radio is working, now with the above remove/clean and re fit, but I feel it will fail hence I ordered a new original final output and the graphite heatsink material.?
I will let you know!
Thanks
Scot
M0RWV
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Re: Anyone found a repeatable way to recover from loss of power output?
There IS a LDMOS MCP9700 thermal sensor on the heatsink of the X6100. The output FET in my radio lost contact from th heatsink die to baked solder between the SRC and Heatsink. ?When removed it was boiled and full of goop...?
I machined that off and pressure mounted it to the heatsink and the radio came back to life.
These output sets are reflow baked on a jig and an oven at manufacture form what I can deduce from reading and observation of manufacturing specs for the FET.?
I have ordered some very expensive IC Cooling IC Graphite heatsink material. This is recommended by NXP semiconductors who make the actual final output. transistor.?
My radio is working, now with the above remove/clean and re fit, but I feel it will fail hence I ordered a new original final output and the graphite heatsink material.?
I will let you know!
Thanks
Scot
M0RWV
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SOME INPUT POWER MEASUREMENTS AT VARIOUS POWER SUPPLY SETTINGS FOR MY X6100
OME INPUT POWER MEASUREMENTS AT VARIOUS POWER SUPPLY SETTINGS FOR MY X6100
I wanted to get a feel for why my then new (in mid-2022) X6100 was getting so warm and hot. I decided to measure the current draw at various external power supply voltages. My X6100¡¯s output was connected to a SWR / wattmeter and then to a dummy load. When in the transmit mode, I used the CW mode.
My general theory is that the power going into the X6100 (which is the volts x current) is the power in heat that must be dissipated. Hence the rigs¡¯ temperature rise noticed.
Note when the X6100 is actually transmitting CW at some power setting then the RF output power goes to the dummy load that I¡¯ve used and thus reduces the power in the X6100 that ends up being heat that must be dissipated. My table below does not adjust for this. For example, my table shows 40 watts going into the X6100 at 13.8 volts when generating 10 watts of CW. But the power actually ending as heat in the radio is 40 ¨C 10 = 30 watts. At 9 volts it would be about 17 watts. Also note that if some actual CW code was being sent, then the actual signals duty cycle would reduce this current and power by about whatever the signal¡¯s duty cycle was.
My testing was using simple on / off CW mode. No doubt that a more complex mode of SSB would be dramatically different depending on the actual duty cycle of the modulation and the transmit / receive duty cycle .. Be it speech or something like FT8.
My overall conclusion is that reducing the external power supply voltage powering the X6100 can significantly reduce the power that ends up as heat that must be dissipated by the radio.
Below is a table of the data that I compiled along with some additional conclusions that I see.
Gary KE8WO
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Re: New radio, heat mitigation
With the way I set this up I have part of the airflow that also goes over the bottom heatsink, by design. All sides of the 6100 are now keeping equally cool even @ 13.8V. I didnt want to go crazy with heatsinks, been there done that when I had a KX3 which had cooling issues also.
I am at a happy medium now between the size of heatsinks and keeping the 6100 nice and cool.
--
Gary Mitchelson
NC3Z/4 Pamlico County, NC FM15
NC AHIMT COML
SHARES NCS997
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Re: New radio, heat mitigation
Gary
Best is to cool the radio at the bottom, as the back side is not really a part of the internal heatsink. Besides cooling also lowering the inoutvoltage to 10,5V? is advised because a part of the heat is generated by the internal (lineair) 9V voltage regulator.
https://pseudovoice.wordpress.com/2022/09/06/x6100-auxiliary-passive-cooler/
--
Robert
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Re: ALC 100 and NO TX output (AFT5M31N) LDMOS [SOLVED]
Hi Scot Thanks that will be great, Can you take some photos Thanks Dave?
[UPDATE]
The repair is still good after several days however I have read a lot of literature regarding NXP LDMOS RF devices and the techniques used to heatsink these RF FETS.
I appears that the mounting of the output FET is very technical and completed in highly controlled reflow conditions using special jigs and equipment that the home repair does not have access to (even advanced hobbyist)?
I think the issue with my radio was that the soldered (paste or pre-form) had heated up and pumped out. The whole back of the transistor was a mess. It is not practical to reflow the solder as the temperatures required are difficult to administer.
I have obtained an IC Graphite cooling pad from Innovation Cooling, a graphite pad also recommended by NXP in their literature)?
Bolt Down Mounting Method for High Power RF Transistors and RFICs in Over-Molded Plastic Packages
This PDF paper discusses test they carried?out using several paste and solder methods to maximise heat and conductivity to the heatsink and they concluded that TGON 805 graphite was the best mixture of cost and ease/performance.
Although my output FET is working OK, it is likely stressed a lot from the excess eat and mechanical movement and so I will be replacing it with a new genuine AFT5M31N from mouser that has now arrived, along with the IC Graphite material as a heat pad.
I will update the thread when completed.
Thanks, Scot
M0RWV
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Re: ALC 100 and NO TX output (AFT5M31N) LDMOS [SOLVED]
[UPDATE] The repair is still good after several days however I have read a lot of literature regarding NXP LDMOS RF devices and the techniques used to heatsink these RF FETS. I appears that the mounting of the output FET is very technical and completed in highly controlled reflow conditions using special jigs and equipment that the home repair does not have access to (even advanced hobbyist)? I think the issue with my radio was that the soldered (paste or pre-form) had heated up and pumped out. The whole back of the transistor was a mess. It is not practical to reflow the solder as the temperatures required are difficult to administer. I have obtained an IC Graphite cooling pad from Innovation Cooling, a graphite pad also recommended by NXP in their literature)?
Bolt Down Mounting Method for High Power RF Transistors and RFICs in Over-Molded Plastic Packages
This PDF paper discusses test they carried?out using several paste and solder methods to maximise heat and conductivity to the heatsink and they concluded that TGON 805 graphite was the best mixture of cost and ease/performance.
Although my output FET is working OK, it is likely stressed a lot from the excess eat and mechanical movement and so I will be replacing it with a new genuine AFT5M31N from mouser that has now arrived, along with the IC Graphite material as a heat pad.
I will update the thread when completed.
Thanks, Scot
M0RWV
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Re: New radio, heat mitigation
The only thing I found with the back of my X6100 was it was slightly concave so a large heatsink only made contact round the edges, so I replaced that with 15 smaller 20mm x 20mm heatsinks and the difference was noticeable
?
The other thing I haven¡¯t seen Mentioned in this thread is how much input voltage affect the heat output
?
I run mine when at home at 11v-11.5v from the PSU instead of the standard 13.8v it runs a lot cooler and no difference in power output
?
?
Peter
M0PWX
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From: groups.kc3suw.eycn2 via groups.io
Sent: 18 August 2023 12:07
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [xiegu-x6100] New radio, heat mitigation
?
Cooling fins stuck to the back make a big difference. I used these which cover almost the entire back plate.?
Then set the radio on top of this while running and it doesn't even feel warm any more.?
https://a.co/d/2JJsZlV
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Re: New radio, heat mitigation
Cooling fins stuck to the back make a big difference. I used these which cover almost the entire back plate.?
Then set the radio on top of this while running and it doesn't even feel warm any more.?
https://a.co/d/2JJsZlV
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Re: New radio, heat mitigation
Hi Gary et al.
Nice to see you have also fallen to this fantastic radio :)
I have thought of doing some deeper investigation about the X6100 thermal management and already now I'm a bit puzzled just by looking videos and pictures of X6100 teardowns, for example this;
The PA module of the X6100 is nowhere close to the back plate but more in the middle of the radio, behind the front panel PCB, to where it also is attached for cooling. The LiPo battery packs are at the back, accommodating the full back side width and height. There are on internal fans or heatpipes to transfer the heat off the PA chip other than the 'middle wall' which then will heat up the whole radio chassis.
I've been thinking of some sort of a heatpipe solution to transfer the PA heat out from the radio, or removing the battery pack (or replace it with a smaller one) so that there would be direct access from the PA chip to the backplate so that it could be lead to cool to a cooling fin at the back.
73, Erik OH2LAK
On Thu, 17 Aug 2023 at 17:15, NC3Z < nc3z@...> wrote: Just got a new X6100 from Radioddity. Cool little radio but generates healthy heat, which I was not to keen about. I had a ham buddy 3D print a X6100 stand I found online and added a Noctua 60mm fan to it. That made a world of difference. Here are some pictures of the heat as seen by a Flir K2. The fan had a low speed reducer inline so was turning slowly and quietly.
--
Gary Mitchelson
NC3Z/4 Pamlico County, NC FM15
NC AHIMT COML
SHARES NCS997
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Re: New radio, heat mitigation
Yes, the charger is off when not needed, that is pretty well documented that is not good to do.
--
Gary Mitchelson
NC3Z/4 Pamlico County, NC FM15
NC AHIMT COML
SHARES NCS997
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Re: New radio, heat mitigation
Gary,
I have similar stand with small fan for my X6100.? I added to rear of the rig couple heat sinks I got on Amazon.? Looks like you have added them also.
One thing we have learned about the X6100 to reduce heat is to not have the int battery charging on when operating the rig, and have the rig off when charging the battery.??
My X6100 with rig on and battery charging draws about 1A in rcv and this does cause the rig to get hot after some time.? With rig on and charger off the current draw is about 400 ma.? With rig off and charger on the current starts at 750ma and after battery is fully charged drops to less than 300 ma.
All this is from the external 12V power using inline current meter.
So suggest when rig on have charger off and when charger on have rig off.
73, ron, n9ee/r Ron Wright, N9EE/R Hernando Co ARES EC
Spring Hill, Florida also n9ee55@...
On Thursday, August 17, 2023 at 12:41:35 PM EDT, NC3Z <nc3z@...> wrote:
This is the stand that I had my buddy print for me, find someone with a 3D printer.? ? ?
--
Gary Mitchelson
NC3Z/4 Pamlico County, NC FM15
NC AHIMT COML
SHARES NCS997
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Re: New radio, heat mitigation
This is the stand that I had my buddy print for me, find someone with a 3D printer.
--
Gary Mitchelson
NC3Z/4 Pamlico County, NC FM15
NC AHIMT COML
SHARES NCS997
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Peter M0PWX
