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turnout frogs within a reversing section

 

This is perhaps an elementary question, but if I have turnouts within a reversing section, should the frogs be powered by the bus or by the reverser?
 

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The frogs within the AR segment should have their own frog juicer or be powered through the servo throwing the points, just as in in a non-AR segment. ??
Bill D
N&W Steam Only


On Jul 7, 2023, at 6:41 PM, William Waithe <wwsd40@...> wrote:

?This is perhaps an elementary question, but if I have turnouts within a reversing section, should the frogs be powered by the bus or by the reverser?

 

Isn't the frog juicer just a specialized autoreverse? If so, putting one or more in a track powered by an autoreverser violates the rule of not connecting two to adjacent tracks.

I'd suggest you contact Tam Valley about it. They have the most to gain by making it work, and the most information about it.

Whether the frog juicers are powered from the normal rail power or the autoreverser's, it seems to me both will see a short circuit, and that triggers a race: the thing that makes different autoreversers on two adjacent blocks not allowed. I hope Tam Valley has a solution.

Don W

--
Don Weigt
Connecticut
 

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Disagree. ?TV Hexjuicer can be used as an AR if connected to both rails. ?But if used only to juice the frog it does not affect the “phase” of the AR segment and works just as it would within a non-AR segment. ? Fact that the frog juicer is within an AR segment is irrelevant. ?
Bill D
N&W Steam Only

On Jul 9, 2023, at 1:09 PM, Don Weigt <dweigt47@...> wrote:

?
Isn't the frog juicer just a specialized autoreverse? If so, putting one or more in a track powered by an autoreverser violates the rule of not connecting two to adjacent tracks.

I'd suggest you contact Tam Valley about it. They have the most to gain by making it work, and the most information about it.

Whether the frog juicers are powered from the normal rail power or the autoreverser's, it seems to me both will see a short circuit, and that triggers a race: the thing that makes different autoreversers on two adjacent blocks not allowed. I hope Tam Valley has a solution.

Don W

--
Don Weigt
Connecticut

 

Bill, except that the AR must be timed such that it doesn't try to reverse before the frog juicer does.? Hence the TV instructions to wire their Frog Juicers directly from the booster.? What the OP wants to do can be done if the AR can be adjusted properly, as there is not such an adjustment on the TV FJ's AFAIK.
John.
 

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Thanks John. ?


On Jul 10, 2023, at 11:22 AM, Swanny <john@...> wrote:

?Bill, except that the AR must be timed such that it doesn't try to reverse before the frog juicer does.? Hence the TV instructions to wire their Frog Juicers directly from the booster.? What the OP wants to do can be done if the AR can be adjusted properly, as there is not such an adjustment on the TV FJ's AFAIK.
John.

 

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Of course the simpler solution is to power the frog through the servo as the turnout is thrown and avoid any potential conflict.
Bill D
N&W Steam Only


On Jul 10, 2023, at 11:22 AM, Swanny <john@...> wrote:

?Bill, except that the AR must be timed such that it doesn't try to reverse before the frog juicer does.? Hence the TV instructions to wire their Frog Juicers directly from the booster.? What the OP wants to do can be done if the AR can be adjusted properly, as there is not such an adjustment on the TV FJ's AFAIK.
John.

 

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John,
You’re correct (of course), which suggests that the objective cannot be achieved if a TV Hexjuicer is being used both as an AR and to power the frog. ??

I don’t know of any convenient way to cause connections to the Hexjuicer to operate at different speeds. ?At minimum an adjustable non-TV product would need to be used either as the AR or as the frog juicer. ?

Or as I suggested, the frog could be powered from the servo throwing the turnout — which does not involve sensing a short to work. ?

Bill D
N&W Steam Only

On Jul 10, 2023, at 12:39 PM, D B via groups.io <1932mgj2@...> wrote:

?Of course the simpler solution is to power the frog through the servo as the turnout is thrown and avoid any potential conflict.
Bill D
N&W Steam Only


On Jul 10, 2023, at 11:22 AM, Swanny <john@...> wrote:

?Bill, except that the AR must be timed such that it doesn't try to reverse before the frog juicer does.? Hence the TV instructions to wire their Frog Juicers directly from the booster.? What the OP wants to do can be done if the AR can be adjusted properly, as there is not such an adjustment on the TV FJ's AFAIK.
John.

 

Hmmm,

? I thought 'standard practice' (aka the basic approach) is to wire the turnout to 'the rest of the
layout' and have the?reversing section start just beyond that turnout.? If you have any
turnouts inside the reversing section then they are simply powered 'normally' ... but thru
the reverser.??
? This way everything in the reversing section stays the same polarity all the time (whatever
polarity the reverser is at that point in time).? And the rest of the layout is wired normally as
well (without a reverser).
? Although it can be done it can be difficult to set up two reversing sections that are 'connected'
(where trains run from one reversing section to the other across a double gap).

? Some situations require the entire turnout to be isolated (gaps on all six rails) in order to
support occupancy detection for the turnout (and only the turnout).? But this does not?
affect the basic wiring of such a turnout in terms of what end of it uses the same polarity
as the track it is connected to (which would be the 'single end' of the turnout).

? What am I missing here about this thread?? This is really, really the basic stuff about
how to wire a reversing section ... isn't it?
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? - Jim in the PNW
 

Jim's logic is correct. A reversing section with only one entrance is like a separate layout. Flip the polarity before entering, and everything?inside is flipped together. The main thing is that the power to the section has to come from the turnout or whatever is throwing the turnout. You can't have a separate source of power to anything in the reversing section or there will be a clash

...Tom

On Tue, Jul 11, 2023 at 8:45?AM Jim Betz <jimbetz@...> wrote:
Hmmm,

? I thought 'standard practice' (aka the basic approach) is to wire the turnout to 'the rest of the
layout' and have the?reversing section start just beyond that turnout.? If you have any
turnouts inside the reversing section then they are simply powered 'normally' ... but thru
the reverser.??
? This way everything in the reversing section stays the same polarity all the time (whatever
polarity the reverser is at that point in time).? And the rest of the layout is wired normally as
well (without a reverser).
? Although it can be done it can be difficult to set up two reversing sections that are 'connected'
(where trains run from one reversing section to the other across a double gap).

? Some situations require the entire turnout to be isolated (gaps on all six rails) in order to
support occupancy detection for the turnout (and only the turnout).? But this does not?
affect the basic wiring of such a turnout in terms of what end of it uses the same polarity
as the track it is connected to (which would be the 'single end' of the turnout).

? What am I missing here about this thread?? This is really, really the basic stuff about
how to wire a reversing section ... isn't it?
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? - Jim in the PNW

 

Totally with you, Jim. I've been bewildered by some of the things I read...

Wouter


On Tue, 11 Jul 2023 at 16:45, Jim Betz <jimbetz@...> wrote:
Hmmm,

? I thought 'standard practice' (aka the basic approach) is to wire the turnout to 'the rest of the
layout' and have the?reversing section start just beyond that turnout.? If you have any
turnouts inside the reversing section then they are simply powered 'normally' ... but thru
the reverser.??
? This way everything in the reversing section stays the same polarity all the time (whatever
polarity the reverser is at that point in time).? And the rest of the layout is wired normally as
well (without a reverser).
? Although it can be done it can be difficult to set up two reversing sections that are 'connected'
(where trains run from one reversing section to the other across a double gap).

? Some situations require the entire turnout to be isolated (gaps on all six rails) in order to
support occupancy detection for the turnout (and only the turnout).? But this does not?
affect the basic wiring of such a turnout in terms of what end of it uses the same polarity
as the track it is connected to (which would be the 'single end' of the turnout).

? What am I missing here about this thread?? This is really, really the basic stuff about
how to wire a reversing section ... isn't it?
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? - Jim in the PNW

 

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I believe the original question (as reflected in the subject line) dealt with powering a frog in a turnout WITHIN?a reversing section. ?That is what the latest posts seem to be “missing.” ?Not a turnout INTO a reversing section or two revising sections connected to one another. ?But rather, powering a frog with a frog juicer WITHIN an AR segment. ?That unique set of facts presents the issues that have been discussed.

Bill D
N&W Steam Only

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