Re: Do any track power boosters have a phase control input?
Lighted rolling stock, passenger cars and other cars that need track power are a scourge to smooth operations. I am a curmudgeon, but when I weigh the need for lighted equipment on a layout that operates 99.9% of the time in daylight, I choose operations over the small gain given by lighted equipment. I can also do without stockcars that moo. Jerry Michels
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Re: Spacing between NCE BD20 detectors
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Re: Spacing between NCE BD20 detectors
Do you have other BD20's connected to Atlas' universal signal control board in other areas of your layout that work?
Just this one BD20 is not working?
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Re: Spacing between NCE BD20 detectors
Bill,
? The typical method for detection placement is for it to be on "the power to the block"
rather than on "the power to one section of the block".? I'll take the time to describe
this further.
? Let's say you have a section of track that has one "power district" that is three
sections of track (with their own feeders) long ... we'll call them A, B, and C.
And each of them has it's own feeders all fed from the same track bus (segment).
? The proper placement of the detector (the "doughnut") is between the booster
and the 'feed' to all three segments ... not in the feed to the "B" (middle) block.
? The idea is to detect all of the power use in the entire track section.??
? Now, if your wiring is too "wimpy" (wire gauge is too small) that can also make
an entire segment (power district) undetectable because the wire is acting as a
"resistor" and limiting the current flow below the level of the BD20 to detect.
? The other problems related to the wiring itself (as have already been hinted at)
are those caused by not twisting the track bus (NOT the feeders) and getting
cross talk between parallel runs of power running to different detection districts.
? The common wisdom is to twist the wire before the detector and not after,
to use larger wire, and to -never- tie wrap or otherwise bring the wires for?
different track segments (detection blocks) running parallel to each other for
even a few inches.? The separation between track bus wires (pairs) should be
at least 3".
? Wiring for signaling is/can be "tricky stuff" and often needs to be 'adjusted'
in each situation and wiring that is perfectly good for a layout without detection
can be unusable when you start adding detection.
? ?If you suspect your wiring then take just one block and?"make it as good as it
can be" with respect to recommended wiring practices (including wire gauge).
If that cures your problem then you know what to do for the rest of the
layout.? When the suspected problem is cross talk (aka "coupling") then
simply unpower all the wires in a bundle except one and see if that one
now works.? However, cross talk can be "cumulative" and elusive to find.
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?- Jim
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Re: Spacing between NCE BD20 detectors
Definitely have 5 volts.
On 9/27/21 10:24 AM, John Eldridge via
groups.io wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Thanks Bill,?
?
Based on your reply, confirming how this BD20 is connected,
you said 3 wires: “one logic, one common, one power”.??
?
Have you measured the “power” voltage @ the BD20 terminals 1
to 4 to confirm you actually have 5V??
?
If you do, you should connect your “logic” wire to pin 3 to
take advantage of the power provided.
?
Also, are you saying that with 5V power @ the BD20 terminals,
the LED on the BD20 is NOT lighting with a train in the block?
John Eldridge
Texas
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Re: Spacing between NCE BD20 detectors
Thanks Bill,?
?
Based on your reply, confirming how this BD20 is connected, you said 3 wires: “one logic, one common, one power”.??
?
Have you measured the “power” voltage @ the BD20 terminals 1 to 4 to confirm you actually have 5V??
?
If you do, you should connect your “logic” wire to pin 3 to take advantage of the power provided.
?
Also, are you saying that with 5V power @ the BD20 terminals, the LED on the BD20 is NOT lighting with a train in the block?
John Eldridge
Texas
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Re: Do any track power boosters have a phase control input?
Don,
And yes, I realize you're not working with a Digitrax system, but
the concept is the same.? However the booster 'learns' what phase
of signal to generate, you'll have? to swap the signals.
Blair
On 2021-09-27 10:22, Blair wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Don
In the early days of DCC, I had problems with phasing on my
Digitrax layout because I was sloppy with Telco vs Data cables.?
Since the only way to 'rephase' a Digitrax booster is to swap
the two Railsync signals in the Loconet cable, I'd suggest that
an easy solution for you would be to use a 5V DPDT relay to swap
the wires that 'inform' the booster as to phase.? Not quite a
'logic level' solution, but certainly 5V compatible. ? The relay
could be driven by whatever is powering the turnout, though that
might argue for a 12V relay if you're using a Tortoise, for
example.
Unfortunately, using a relay may introduce enough of a power
dropout that sound locos will reset, but it's a start.
Blair
On 2021-09-27 9:20, Don Weigt wrote:
I've connected up new EasyDCC boosters with auto reversing to my
layout. Previously, I used a toggle switch on the panel to
control the phasing of the power in the reversing loop.
Auto reversing works reliably, but I've notice some of the metal
wheels on old Athearn passenger cars can cause arc after arc as
they roll across the gaps. It seems likely only shorts to one
side of the booster output triggers auto reversing. I don't like
the idea of having this arcing occur over and over. I don't want
to use a power relay to switch the phase of the power for the
reversing sections. I'd really like a way to control the output
phase of the auto reverse boosters.
Does anyone make a booster with a low level, such as 5V logic
level, input that controls it's output track power phase?
--
Don Weigt
Connecticut
__._,_._,_
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Re: Do any track power boosters have a phase control input?
Don
In the early days of DCC, I had problems with phasing on my
Digitrax layout because I was sloppy with Telco vs Data cables.?
Since the only way to 'rephase' a Digitrax booster is to swap the
two Railsync signals in the Loconet cable, I'd suggest that an
easy solution for you would be to use a 5V DPDT relay to swap the
wires that 'inform' the booster as to phase.? Not quite a 'logic
level' solution, but certainly 5V compatible. ? The relay could be
driven by whatever is powering the turnout, though that might
argue for a 12V relay if you're using a Tortoise, for example.
Unfortunately, using a relay may introduce enough of a power
dropout that sound locos will reset, but it's a start.
Blair
On 2021-09-27 9:20, Don Weigt wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
I've connected up new EasyDCC boosters with auto reversing to my
layout. Previously, I used a toggle switch on the panel to control
the phasing of the power in the reversing loop.
Auto reversing works reliably, but I've notice some of the metal
wheels on old Athearn passenger cars can cause arc after arc as
they roll across the gaps. It seems likely only shorts to one side
of the booster output triggers auto reversing. I don't like the
idea of having this arcing occur over and over. I don't want to
use a power relay to switch the phase of the power for the
reversing sections. I'd really like a way to control the output
phase of the auto reverse boosters.
Does anyone make a booster with a low level, such as 5V logic
level, input that controls it's output track power phase?
--
Don Weigt
Connecticut
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Re: Spacing between NCE BD20 detectors
John,
I'm connecting the BD20s to Atlas' universal signal control board
via three wires, one logic, one common, one power.? the Atlas
boards in turn have two other posts that use 5 volt power to light
the Atlas signal itself.
BIll
On 9/27/21 9:52 AM, John Eldridge
wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Hi Bill,?
?
Have been following this topic of your “Spacing between NCE
BD20 detectors” question, and have some questions that I have
not seen
asked or answered.?
?
1. Are you using a NCE AIU to receive the signal from the
BD20 to encode the Block Occupancy to your DCC system? If not,
what is your interface?
?
2. If you are using AIU’s to read your BD20's, does the LED
on the AIU for the BD20 in question NOT light, while LED’s for
other BD20's do light??
?
2. Based on your reply to Don Weigt, am I correct that you
are using only Pin 2 “Logic +” terminal + Pin 1 “Ground” on the
BD20 to your interface??
?
Please advise, as I have been using BD20's connected with
pins 2 & 1 only toAIU interfaces quite successfully for over
a year.
?
John Eldridge
Texas
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Re: Spacing between NCE BD20 detectors
Hi Bill,?
?
Have been following this topic of your “Spacing between NCE BD20 detectors” question, and have some questions that I have not seen
asked or answered.?
?
1. Are you using a NCE AIU to receive the signal from the BD20 to encode the Block Occupancy to your DCC system? If not, what is your interface?
?
2. If you are using AIU’s to read your BD20's, does the LED on the AIU for the BD20 in question NOT light, while LED’s for other BD20's do light??
?
2. Based on your reply to Don Weigt, am I correct that you are using only Pin 2 “Logic +” terminal + Pin 1 “Ground” on the BD20 to your interface??
?
Please advise, as I have been using BD20's connected with pins 2 & 1 only toAIU interfaces quite successfully for over a year.
?
John Eldridge
Texas
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Re: Spacing between NCE BD20 detectors
I have heard that adding a resistor to a freight car axle ?and/or caboose also helps with detection. Train length will dictate the number of resistors needed depending upon block length and applications (signals, grade crossings, etc).
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Sep 27, 2021, at 9:23 AM, Bill Wilken <bill.wilken@...> wrote:
?
Don,
I know that adding a 5-volt connection to posts 1 and 4 on a BD20
will permit the onboard LED to light or not depending on block
traffic.? I've also read, as you suggest, that it could impact
BD20 sensitivity, but I've never found anything to that effect in
NCE's documentation.? In any event, it's worth a shot.
Thanks for your feedback.
Bill
On 9/27/21 9:10 AM, Don Weigt wrote:
Bill,
There's often confusion between the terms wire, cable, and
pairs. Many people call a multi-conductor cable a "wire", when
it's a group of wires. Also, "speaker wire" is really a pair,
as is "zip cord." They would usually carry the power and the
return; currents in opposite directions, whose magnetic fields
approximately cancel.
The BD20 works by detecting the magnetic field created by
train current going through the wire threaded through the hole
in the detector. That wire becomes part of a transformer. If
you put both the power and return wires through the BD20, the
currents, going in opposite directions, will cancel each
other's magnetic fields. You want only one or the other wires,
not both, wound on the BD20. Perhaps that's your problem? Note
in the wiring diagram it shows only the power feeder wire, not
the return wire, routed through the sensor hole.
Nothing is said about needing a power supply for basic
detection. But, I wonder if one might be needed. I've never
used a BD20, so I don't know. It would hurt nothing to do this
test: Connect a 5V power supply between terminals 1 and 4, as
called out for using the onboard LED or an external
relay.?Make no other changes. With the 5V power on, does the
detector work, and not without it?
Don Weigt
Connecticut
--
Don Weigt
Connecticut
|
Re: Spacing between NCE BD20 detectors
Don,
I know that adding a 5-volt connection to posts 1 and 4 on a BD20
will permit the onboard LED to light or not depending on block
traffic.? I've also read, as you suggest, that it could impact
BD20 sensitivity, but I've never found anything to that effect in
NCE's documentation.? In any event, it's worth a shot.
Thanks for your feedback.
Bill
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 9/27/21 9:10 AM, Don Weigt wrote:
Bill,
There's often confusion between the terms wire, cable, and
pairs. Many people call a multi-conductor cable a "wire", when
it's a group of wires. Also, "speaker wire" is really a pair,
as is "zip cord." They would usually carry the power and the
return; currents in opposite directions, whose magnetic fields
approximately cancel.
The BD20 works by detecting the magnetic field created by
train current going through the wire threaded through the hole
in the detector. That wire becomes part of a transformer. If
you put both the power and return wires through the BD20, the
currents, going in opposite directions, will cancel each
other's magnetic fields. You want only one or the other wires,
not both, wound on the BD20. Perhaps that's your problem? Note
in the wiring diagram it shows only the power feeder wire, not
the return wire, routed through the sensor hole.
Nothing is said about needing a power supply for basic
detection. But, I wonder if one might be needed. I've never
used a BD20, so I don't know. It would hurt nothing to do this
test: Connect a 5V power supply between terminals 1 and 4, as
called out for using the onboard LED or an external
relay.?Make no other changes. With the 5V power on, does the
detector work, and not without it?
Don Weigt
Connecticut
--
Don Weigt
Connecticut
|
Do any track power boosters have a phase control input?
I've connected up new EasyDCC boosters with auto reversing to my layout. Previously, I used a toggle switch on the panel to control the phasing of the power in the reversing loop.
Auto reversing works reliably, but I've notice some of the metal wheels on old Athearn passenger cars can cause arc after arc as they roll across the gaps. It seems likely only shorts to one side of the booster output triggers auto reversing. I don't like the idea of having this arcing occur over and over. I don't want to use a power relay to switch the phase of the power for the reversing sections. I'd really like a way to control the output phase of the auto reverse boosters.
Does anyone make a booster with a low level, such as 5V logic level, input that controls it's output track power phase?
--
Don Weigt
Connecticut
|
Re: Spacing between NCE BD20 detectors
Bill,
There's often confusion between the terms wire, cable, and pairs. Many people call a multi-conductor cable a "wire", when it's a group of wires. Also, "speaker wire" is really a pair, as is "zip cord." They would usually carry the power and the return; currents in opposite directions, whose magnetic fields approximately cancel.
The BD20 works by detecting the magnetic field created by train current going through the wire threaded through the hole in the detector. That wire becomes part of a transformer. If you put both the power and return wires through the BD20, the currents, going in opposite directions, will cancel each other's magnetic fields. You want only one or the other wires, not both, wound on the BD20. Perhaps that's your problem? Note in the wiring diagram it shows only the power feeder wire, not the return wire, routed through the sensor hole.
Nothing is said about needing a power supply for basic detection. But, I wonder if one might be needed. I've never used a BD20, so I don't know. It would hurt nothing to do this test: Connect a 5V power supply between terminals 1 and 4, as called out for using the onboard LED or an external relay.?Make no other changes. With the 5V power on, does the detector work, and not without it?
Don Weigt Connecticut
-- Don Weigt Connecticut
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Re: Spacing between NCE BD20 detectors
I've been pretty scrupulous about having feeders attached to
every section of track.? For my amusement this afternoon, I'll be
taking a close look at every wire connection.? Unfortunately, I
wasn't sufficiently prescient to build my layout 56" off the
floor.? Thinking about kids, I opted for 48", which makes every
venture beneath my track work decidedly unpleasant.? Indeed,
"build your benchwork 56" high" ought to be the first commandment
in any DCC how-to-do-it manual!
On 9/26/21 12:47 PM, wirefordcc via
groups.io wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Bill,
I believe you said that your BD20 was not detecting a train in the
block.? The pot is for desensitizing the BD20.? So that may not
help you.
I did notice in the BD20 instructions where it says it may not
work on long blocks.? But it referenced false detections due to
couple capacitance and glue and ballast.
Is your long block fed every section or two of track to your bus
wires.? Note:? One of your bus wires should be connected to a wire
going through your BD20.? Make sure you don't have another
connection (called the goober connection!) going to your booster
that could be bypassing your BD20.
Those are the obvious things I can think of.
Allan
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Re: Spacing between NCE BD20 detectors
Interesting.? Thanks for forwarding.?
On 9/26/21 11:23 AM, David McBrayer via
groups.io wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Bill,?
I don’t know all of the in’s and out’s of your
layout. ?NCE has an article on their website that discusses a
BD20 detection challenge that reads similar to yours at this
link,?.
Hope this helps. ?
Dave McBrayer?
Auburn, CA?
I've tried a variety of "winding" strategies, but without
success.? When I talked with NCE's technical support fellow
the other day, he was pretty skeptical about the feasibility
of 25' blocks.? He suggested that the only viable option was
installing a POT on the BD20, which I haven't yet
attempted.? In the meantime, I'm double-checking all my
wiring.? My experience (successfully) building a test-bed
tells me that it's all too easy to goober up connections.
Bill
On 9/26/21 10:45 AM, wirefordcc via groups.io wrote:
Hi Bill,
If you haven't tried it already, try putting more than one
turn through your BD20.? Literally just loop it around and
go through it again.? This increases sensitivity of the
BD20.? I don't think you need multiple detectors in a
block.? Check the BD20 instructions for multiple turns
through it.
Allan Gartner
Wiring for DCC
--
Dave McBrayer
Auburn, CA
|
Re: Spacing between NCE BD20 detectors
Bill,
I believe you said that your BD20 was not detecting a train in the block.? The pot is for desensitizing the BD20.? So that may not help you.
I did notice in the BD20 instructions where it says it may not work on long blocks.? But it referenced false detections due to couple capacitance and glue and ballast.
Is your long block fed every section or two of track to your bus wires.? Note:? One of your bus wires should be connected to a wire going through your BD20.? Make sure you don't have another connection (called the goober connection!) going to your booster that could be bypassing your BD20.
Those are the obvious things I can think of.
Allan
|
Re: Spacing between NCE BD20 detectors
Bill,? I don’t know all of the in’s and out’s of your layout. ?NCE has an article on their website that discusses a BD20 detection challenge that reads similar to yours at this link,?. Hope this helps. ?
Dave McBrayer? Auburn, CA? ———————
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Sep 26, 2021, at 07:54, Bill Wilken <bill.wilken@...> wrote:
I've tried a variety of "winding" strategies, but without
success.? When I talked with NCE's technical support fellow the
other day, he was pretty skeptical about the feasibility of 25'
blocks.? He suggested that the only viable option was installing a
POT on the BD20, which I haven't yet attempted.? In the meantime,
I'm double-checking all my wiring.? My experience (successfully)
building a test-bed tells me that it's all too easy to goober up
connections.
Bill
On 9/26/21 10:45 AM, wirefordcc via
groups.io wrote:
Hi Bill,
If you haven't tried it already, try putting more than one turn
through your BD20.? Literally just loop it around and go through
it again.? This increases sensitivity of the BD20.? I don't think
you need multiple detectors in a block.? Check the BD20
instructions for multiple turns through it.
Allan Gartner
Wiring for DCC
--
Dave McBrayer
Auburn, CA
|
Re: Spacing between NCE BD20 detectors
Allan,
I've tried a variety of "winding" strategies, but without
success.? When I talked with NCE's technical support fellow the
other day, he was pretty skeptical about the feasibility of 25'
blocks.? He suggested that the only viable option was installing a
POT on the BD20, which I haven't yet attempted.? In the meantime,
I'm double-checking all my wiring.? My experience (successfully)
building a test-bed tells me that it's all too easy to goober up
connections.
Bill
On 9/26/21 10:45 AM, wirefordcc via
groups.io wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Hi Bill,
If you haven't tried it already, try putting more than one turn
through your BD20.? Literally just loop it around and go through
it again.? This increases sensitivity of the BD20.? I don't think
you need multiple detectors in a block.? Check the BD20
instructions for multiple turns through it.
Allan Gartner
Wiring for DCC
|
Re: Spacing between NCE BD20 detectors
Hi Bill,
If you haven't tried it already, try putting more than one turn through your BD20.? Literally just loop it around and go through it again.? This increases sensitivity of the BD20.? I don't think you need multiple detectors in a block.? Check the BD20 instructions for multiple turns through it.
Allan Gartner
Wiring for DCC
|
Jim Betz
David McBrayer