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At 21:34 2005-07-11 -0400, Rasa and Blair Smith wrote:

Hi
For those with a lot more experience. I keep reading comments about 13.8
VDC not being enough to power DCC systems for HO, because you "dont get
enough speed out of the locos". Now, when I think about it for not very
long, it seems to me that that implys running the units at full throttle and
being unsatisfied with performance. So what voltage DC is required to
achieve full performance? Yes, I realize that we have to assume a few
things, like the voltage drop to the farthest corner of the layout, etc.
etc, but ignoring those factors for a moment, what input voltage DC should
we strive for to get satisfactory DCC performance?

1. The DCC systems I've encountered all required AC input. Have you found
one that runs on DC power?
2. Power is not the same as speed with DCC, the DCC signal is full power
all the time. However, more power in the signal allows more speed. I like
to aim for 14-15 volts on the tracks, which implies a similar amount of
input power.

If 13.8 VDC is satisfactory as long as we aren't looking for slotcar
performance, then the next question becomes will a DCC system perform
satisfactorily from an automobile electrical system? With and without
alternator charging system, or only when the car is running?
12 VDC is the minimum input, right? Or is that optimistic?

I ask all of this because there is a significant chance I am going to want
to go off-grid in my next abode, and I expect 12 Volts will be part of my
life at that point.

Like I wrote above, the systems I've found all require AC input. I was
going to say that you can always change the power source at a later time if
it doesn't work, but your situation kind of rules that out.
/Jan

Hi
For those with a lot more experience. I keep reading comments about 13.8
VDC not being enough to power DCC systems for HO, because you "dont get
enough speed out of the locos". Now, when I think about it for not very
long, it seems to me that that implys running the units at full throttle and
being unsatisfied with performance. So what voltage DC is required to
achieve full performance? Yes, I realize that we have to assume a few
things, like the voltage drop to the farthest corner of the layout, etc.
etc, but ignoring those factors for a moment, what input voltage DC should
we strive for to get satisfactory DCC performance?

If 13.8 VDC is satisfactory as long as we aren't looking for slotcar
performance, then the next question becomes will a DCC system perform
satisfactorily from an automobile electrical system? With and without
alternator charging system, or only when the car is running?
12 VDC is the minimum input, right? Or is that optimistic?

I ask all of this because there is a significant chance I am going to want
to go off-grid in my next abode, and I expect 12 Volts will be part of my
life at that point.

Blair Smith

Hi gang: I have several snap relays, that I wish to wire to my
switches and to my target lights. Does any one have a wiring diagram
for this out there? I do not have the original wiring diagram of how
to hook up these relays either.

Les
Canadian Eastern Inland R R

MT,

It appears that no one has developed a circuit that displays green
for no short and red for short. There are probably several reason
for this.
1. If a light bulb is not used to limit a short, DCC boosters shut
down when a short occurs. This would make it hard for a circuit to
know that a short is present.
2. When a short occurs, your trains comes to an abrupt stop. You
don't need a light that tells you have a problem. You will already
know you probably have a short before you look at any light.
3. If you use light bulbs to limit short circuit current, this will
provide you with a short circuit indication.

To learn more about using bulbs, go to:


Note: At the moment I created this email, the server for the
website appears to be down. Try later.

Allan

K am a little bit slow, have now figured out that DCC runs on AC, not
DC, (thus reason why lites come on in non dcc engines when put on dcc
powered track) Now i want to know how to set up blocks that show one
colored lite when all is ok and a red lite when I have a short...I
know I need to use relays, but not quite sure how to configure
them...I've had 22 yrs experience fixing radar and radios in aircraft
but this one is eluding me. (plus i guess i'm getting old laugh laugh)

mt

Whoops! I see that when I added the "How to wire this turnout"
feature to my website, I missed the Kato turnouts. Sorry about that.

I just updated the website. You should find the information you seek
there now. Go to

I strongly recommend soldered connections to the track. However,
given that there is so much plastic in the Unitrack, if your soldering
skills really are weak, you may do more harm than good. If you use
joiners with wires attached to them, you should be good for several
years IF THE JOINERS ARE TIGHT ON THE RAILS. Long term, you may start
developing problems. Therefore, you really should solder your
connections.

Allan

HELP!!! I am new to the hobby and I am currently building a dcc N
scale layout using KATO Unitrack. I am building the Manning Oaks
#4417 layout plan that I downloaded from KATOUSA.com under the section
for N scale layouts. The layout uses 6 left hand #6 swithces
(turnouts) as well as a double crossover. I read on this website the
articles on how to make the Unitrack #6 turnouts "DCC Friendly" by
removing the tab or wiper arm that powers the frogs and to do the same
with the Unitrack double crossover. I made theses modifications this
weekend but now I am totally confused on how to wire the layout??? I
already ran my bus wire under the layout but I have no clue on how and
where to properly wire the switches and double crossover as they
relate to the layout. Also, would it be O.K. to use the terminal
Unijoiners as feeders and solder the ends of them to the bus wires or
should I really solder feeders directly to the track? (My soldering
skills are weak). Since my skills and knowledge of the hobby are very
limited, please be specific as possible!

Jan,

No problem. I've added it to the solutions worth considering ;-)

Glad to hear it. We're pretty flexible for updates and features. The
firmware running now hasn't changed in several months. It's about due for a
update. If you have any features or functions that seem to be lacking,
please let me know.

Do your system feature slow starts and stops?

At the moment, it just sends a 'kick' to get the motor moving when running
at slow speed. Since it doesn't have any Back-EMF or way to detect what the
physical motor is doing, slow speed can be a bit tricky. It is really more
dependant on the mechanics of the trolley/loco. The Brill trolley shown in
my pictures is quite finicky at slow speeds. It has the factory motor. It
works very nice with a 'normal' motor, not the factory pancake in the Brill.
We could add a more flexible ramp or curve to get your motor stable at slow
speeds. This would take the form of 'settings' that you could 'tweak' for
your specific trolley, much the same as CV's in a mobile DCC decoder.

Your homepage say you're considering a DCC version.

Been considering it, but we have a much more aggressive plan for this that I
can't quite talk about yet, more like a universal throttle...

As we're using a Lenz system, using Loconet is a non-starter.

I understand and agree. I have NCE, Lenz, MRC, and Digitrax here, you are
right, committing to one is a non-starter for the others. Have a plan, but
still working on the solution.


I suppose that is about the limit for what we should talk about on-list, if
you have more questions or comments, best to send me off-list so I don't
offend anyone here. If anyone else has questions, please let me know!

Bob Scheffler
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
www.dcctester.com "Test all the data on your Rails!"

At 13:05 2005-07-01 -0600, Robert Scheffler wrote:

Not sure if you are interested in DC control. Keeping all the warnings Mark
has described about mixing DC and DCC on the track level in mind. This
system will only work with DC:
<>

It has up to 8 station sensors (for me Hall-Effect sensors) that simply
'close' when the Trolley is over them. You put a small magnet on the bottom
of your Trolley and the controller can start and stop at any station. It can
change position of up to 4 twin-coil switch machines, or 4 slow-motion
switch machines.

I have one setup on my layout with 4 switch tracks and 8 station sensors. It
drives from any point to any point using a scripting-like table of events.
You just say "Drive East at 40%", "Wait For Station A", "Stop for 5
seconds", "Throw Turnout 2", "Drive West at 50%", "Wait for Station B",
"Stop for 25 Seconds", etc... This would be considered a "ROUTE". You can
create many "ROUTES" and then build them up into a "SCHEDULE" so that the
movements are not just a "BUMP AND REVERSE" type of controller.

Having an automatic line is actually pretty cool because it really does run
itself. It doesn't use a computer once you have the "ROUTES" set. When you
power it on, it just starts the "SCHEDULE" you have stored. The programming
of the "ROUTES" is done with a PC, but after that, no PC needed.


This is my product, so sorry for the plug, since you didn't get any better
answers, I though you might appreciate this.

No problem. I've added it to the solutions worth considering ;-) Do your
system feature slow starts and stops?

Your homepage say you're considering a DCC version. As we're using a Lenz
system, using Loconet is a non-starter.

/Jan

Not sure if you are interested in DC control. Keeping all the warnings Mark
has described about mixing DC and DCC on the track level in mind. This
system will only work with DC:


It has up to 8 station sensors (for me Hall-Effect sensors) that simply
'close' when the Trolley is over them. You put a small magnet on the bottom
of your Trolley and the controller can start and stop at any station. It can
change position of up to 4 twin-coil switch machines, or 4 slow-motion
switch machines.

I have one setup on my layout with 4 switch tracks and 8 station sensors. It
drives from any point to any point using a scripting-like table of events.
You just say "Drive East at 40%", "Wait For Station A", "Stop for 5
seconds", "Throw Turnout 2", "Drive West at 50%", "Wait for Station B",
"Stop for 25 Seconds", etc... This would be considered a "ROUTE". You can
create many "ROUTES" and then build them up into a "SCHEDULE" so that the
movements are not just a "BUMP AND REVERSE" type of controller.

Having an automatic line is actually pretty cool because it really does run
itself. It doesn't use a computer once you have the "ROUTES" set. When you
power it on, it just starts the "SCHEDULE" you have stored. The programming
of the "ROUTES" is done with a PC, but after that, no PC needed.


This is my product, so sorry for the plug, since you didn't get any better
answers, I though you might appreciate this.

Bob Scheffler
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
PRICOM Design
www.pricom.com

At 11:18 2005-07-01 -0700, Mark Gurries wrote:

Friends,

My club has a requirement for a tram that just goes back and forth
between it's terminal track and staging/storage. We want this to be
automatically controled. There are several kits for doing just this on
the market, but all I have found are DC based. As this track is
connected with the general layout, we would prefer a DCC solution, but
this seems to require a computer, a computer interface, and track
detectors.

My question is: Is there a simpler solution with DCC? What's the
cheapest DCC-based solution (without building your own hardware or
sofware)?

Nothing is simpler or more cost effective than a DC solution.

DCC has layout automation software for DCC.

<>

is an example of such software.

But you will need a computer, a computer interface to the DCC system,
sensors in the track (DC will need that too) and do some programming.

Definitely more expensive and requires a computer running to make it
happen. The DC solution would be hands off easy to setup and forget.

That's what I suspected, thanks for confirming.

Some thoughts...

Generally mixing DC and DCC is not recommended by anyone. I can result
in destruction of a booster, DC throttle or both if both power sources
connect to each other. (DCC is a form of AC power) If you must run DC,
the recommendation is that one have a master switch that toggle the
whole layout between DC or DCC but NEVER both at the same time. Many
layouts have done this successfully. There was an article about how one
club did it in MR magazine.

If you MUST have DC and DCC present, there are some recommended rules.

1) Isolate at least a 12: section of track the goes between the DC power
section of the layout and the DCC powered portion of the layout. A no
mans land with not power. Using a momentary center off switch, you
would toggle the power of the dead section of track to DC or DCC
depending on which side of the dead section of track you need to get
power from. The key is momentary switch. A standard toggle will no be
safe for you will forget to turn it off.

That solution is something like what I had in mind. We don't want any
rolling stock straying into the way of the automatic tram, anyway.

Thanks for a comprehensive answer.

Yours,
Jan

Friends,

My club has a requirement for a tram that just goes back and forth
between it's terminal track and staging/storage. We want this to be
automatically controled. There are several kits for doing just this on
the market, but all I have found are DC based. As this track is
connected with the general layout, we would prefer a DCC solution, but
this seems to require a computer, a computer interface, and track
detectors.

My question is: Is there a simpler solution with DCC? What's the
cheapest DCC-based solution (without building your own hardware or
sofware)?

Nothing is simpler or more cost effective than a DC solution.

DCC has layout automation software for DCC.



is an example of such software.

But you will need a computer, a computer interface to the DCC system,
sensors in the track (DC will need that too) and do some programming.

Definitely more expensive and requires a computer running to make it
happen. The DC solution would be hands off easy to setup and forget.

Some thoughts...

Generally mixing DC and DCC is not recommended by anyone. I can result
in destruction of a booster, DC throttle or both if both power sources
connect to each other. (DCC is a form of AC power) If you must run DC,
the recommendation is that one have a master switch that toggle the
whole layout between DC or DCC but NEVER both at the same time. Many
layouts have done this successfully. There was an article about how one
club did it in MR magazine.

If you MUST have DC and DCC present, there are some recommended rules.

1) Isolate at least a 12: section of track the goes between the DC power
section of the layout and the DCC powered portion of the layout. A no
mans land with not power. Using a momentary center off switch, you
would toggle the power of the dead section of track to DC or DCC
depending on which side of the dead section of track you need to get
power from. The key is momentary switch. A standard toggle will no be
safe for you will forget to turn it off.

2) Another option to isolate the approach track from the DCC portion of
the layout and power it through a Lenz LT100.



The LT100 is connected to your DC power pack output. It monitors for
signs of DCC and will instantly disconnect the DC power pack from the
track protecting both system.

I should say that running a locomotive from DC section of track to a DCC
section of track can lead to a runaway locomotive. Most decoder make a
decision on first power up to run in DCC or DC mode. As long as power
is maintained, that decision remains true. So if the decoder see DCC
power after while it has been running in DC mode, the decoder will not
recognize the DCC and assume the DCC is nothing more than full throttle
DC power and vrooom.....

The reverse DCC to DC is less predictable. The engine may simple stop
and not run OR switch to DC mode with a very erratic reaction in the
process.

Part of the randomness to all this is the nature of an engine rolling on
track with the corresponding momentary loss of power. Dirt, oxidation,
clean wheel, number of wheel pickups and other such factor play into the
experience.


Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Linear Technology
Power Supply & Battery Charger Applications Engineer/Manager
---------------------------------------------------------
Model Railroad Club and NMRA DCC presentations are at:

--------------------------------------------------------
Audio Enthusiast (Love SAE equipment)

----------------------------------------------------------

Friends,

My club has a requirement for a tram that just goes back and forth
between it's terminal track and staging/storage. We want this to be
automatically controled. There are several kits for doing just this on
the market, but all I have found are DC based. As this track is
connected with the general layout, we would prefer a DCC solution, but
this seems to require a computer, a computer interface, and track
detectors.

My question is: Is there a simpler solution with DCC? What's the
cheapest DCC-based solution (without building your own hardware or
sofware)?

Tom,
Well, I signed up for this forum and posted a message. Here are the links.......
Jerry

--- In WiringForDCC@..., "wirefordcc"
<wire4dcc_admin@c...> wrote:

Jerry,

If you want to show us a drawing, you need to post it to the file
area. Drawings attached to emails are removed by Yahoo.

I may be able to answer your question without seeing it. You are
correct, 3-rail is easy because the outside rails are common. Three
rail is particularly advantagous with reverse loops. Unlike 2 rail,
you don't have to do anything special for 3-rail.

Allan

Sorry, Allan - new to this also. I've posted the diagram to
the 'files' section. I's probably one of your drawing that I modified.
The layout we're working on will be large (78' by 40') and require
several power districts. Great way to start the hobby!
Jerry

Jerry,

I just viewed the drawing you uploaded. Yes, you have modified it
correctly.

Allan

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the WiringForDCC
group.

File : /3-rail power diagram.jpg
Uploaded by : jsilver6307 <jsilver9@...>
Description : 3-rail diagram?

You can access this file at the URL:


To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:


Regards,

jsilver6307 <jsilver9@...>

Jerry,

If you want to show us a drawing, you need to post it to the file
area. Drawings attached to emails are removed by Yahoo.

I may be able to answer your question without seeing it. You are
correct, 3-rail is easy because the outside rails are common. Three
rail is particularly advantagous with reverse loops. Unlike 2 rail,
you don't have to do anything special for 3-rail.

Allan

Does the attached/modified 2-rail drawing represent DCC wiring for 'O' gage (3-rail)? I'm new to model railroading and have chosen to use 3-rail 'O' as my base platform. I've not been able to find much information (that I can interpret as 3-rail information) on wiring that is specific to 3-rail. I thought 3-rail would be easy because the outside rails are common and the inside rail is signal. Maybe I'm wrong!!
Advice/council appreciated - THANKS!

Please see the section for beginners regarding blocks on the Wiring
For DCC website.



Allan