Wiring for DCC Website Update
I have added Peter Herron's invisible feeder method to my website.? Follow this link: ?
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Allan Gartner
Wiring for DCC
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3CURLY3 inquires: ? ¡°Have question on feeder wiring. Will send photo to you in the Pictures folder.? Is this ok to have bare wire at bend touching side of track or should the bend still have the insulation touching.¡± ? Not a problem if the bare feeder isn¡¯t touching something conductive such as wire screen, or worse, other wires on the layout. ? In fact, so folks will remove the insulation from where it touches the rail all the way down into the roadbed.? Wire that has been stripped is much easier to hide than wire still covered in insulation.? A large layout I worked on used wires stripped from phone cable as feeders to the track.? A wire went to every section of rail, rail joiners were not trusted to conduct electricity, only for mechanical alignment.? Phone wire sized feeders were up to 24¡± long (due to necessity) between track bus and rail and we never had any problems. ? Best regards, ? Steve ? Steve Haas Snoqualmie, WA ?
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Have question on feeder wiring. Will send photo to you in the Pictures folder.?
Is this ok to have bare wire at bend touching side of track or should the bend still have the insulation touching.
Thanks?
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Hi Peter,
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You cannot embed pictures in emails to the Q&A Forum.? You must put them in the Pictures folder which is the left of the groups.io menu.
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You can do that and I encourage you to do so for our immediate readers of this forum. I can add your text and your photos to my website giving readers a permanent place they can find how to solder to the bottom of rails.??
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I've got your text that you posted here in the forum.? Send me your photos directly at:? bigboy@....? Number the photos.? Just tack a number to the beginning of each picture file.? ATTACH the files to your email to me.? DO NOT EMBED them.? They are too hard to get out when embedded.? ?
Thank you
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Allan Gartner
Wiring for DCC
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They ARE in the copy of post in my sent box!
Peter
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Feb 3, 2025, at 10:01?AM, Peter Herron <peterebherron@...> wrote:
?I am wondering if the photos I placed in the body of my post are visible to you guys as they are not visible to me?! Why did they disappear?
Peter
Sent from my iPad
On Feb 3, 2025, at 8:36?AM, peterebherron via groups.io <peterebherron@...> wrote:
?Hello everyone. I just found this thread and had just put together a tutorial for another forum on how I make invisible feeder joints so I thought I¡¯d share it. If I am stepping on toes or being inappropriate I apologize in advance.
Again I must emphasize how great a resistance soldering machine is! It¡¯s not for everything as you¡¯ll see. I solder all my feeder wires to the bottom of the rail, not the side, even if the track is ballasted. This method is so easy.
Drill a hole next to the rail where you want the feeder on the inside not outside. Angle it slightly towards the out side. Cut,strip, bend and heavily tin a feeder wire about 4¡± long. This part does NOT work well with a resistance station so I use my trusty Hakko! See pic below:
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Now take a file shaped like the one in the picture below right by the hole in the roadbed to clean and scratch up the bottom of the rail for about 1/2¡±. This is the most IMPORTANT step in the whole process.
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Next apply flux to the cleaned area on the bottom of the rail with a toothpick. Bend the feeder into the shape below.
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Now push the feeder wire down the hole until it is sitting like this.
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Here is where your resistance soldering tweezers shine. As you pull the wire down from underneath the roadbed that bend in the wire will let the angled end shift to under the rail. Now push it up and hit with high heat for 2 seconds and the solder on the wire will combine with the flux underneath the rail and form a solid joint. See below:
You certainly can use a conventional iron but the instant on and off of heat using resistance helps you to not affect plastic ties so much.
I hope you will try this method as I¡¯ve been using it for years and has strongly reduced my angst at what I used to dread doing.
Have fun!
Peter
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I am wondering if the photos I placed in the body of my post are visible to you guys as they are not visible to me?! Why did they disappear?
Peter
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Feb 3, 2025, at 8:36?AM, peterebherron via groups.io <peterebherron@...> wrote:
?Hello everyone. I just found this thread and had just put together a tutorial for another forum on how I make invisible feeder joints so I thought I¡¯d share it. If I am stepping on toes or being inappropriate I apologize in advance.
Again I must emphasize how great a resistance soldering machine is! It¡¯s not for everything as you¡¯ll see. I solder all my feeder wires to the bottom of the rail, not the side, even if the track is ballasted. This method is so easy.
Drill a hole next to the rail where you want the feeder on the inside not outside. Angle it slightly towards the out side. Cut,strip, bend and heavily tin a feeder wire about 4¡± long. This part does NOT work well with a resistance station so I use my trusty Hakko! See pic below:
?
Now take a file shaped like the one in the picture below right by the hole in the roadbed to clean and scratch up the bottom of the rail for about 1/2¡±. This is the most IMPORTANT step in the whole process.
?
Next apply flux to the cleaned area on the bottom of the rail with a toothpick. Bend the feeder into the shape below.
?
Now push the feeder wire down the hole until it is sitting like this.
?
Here is where your resistance soldering tweezers shine. As you pull the wire down from underneath the roadbed that bend in the wire will let the angled end shift to under the rail. Now push it up and hit with high heat for 2 seconds and the solder on the wire will combine with the flux underneath the rail and form a solid joint. See below:
You certainly can use a conventional iron but the instant on and off of heat using resistance helps you to not affect plastic ties so much.
I hope you will try this method as I¡¯ve been using it for years and has strongly reduced my angst at what I used to dread doing.
Have fun!
Peter
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Hello everyone. I just found this thread and had just put together a tutorial for another forum on how I make invisible feeder joints so I thought I¡¯d share it. If I am stepping on toes or being inappropriate I apologize in advance.
Again I must emphasize how great a resistance soldering machine is! It¡¯s not for everything as you¡¯ll see. I solder all my feeder wires to the bottom of the rail, not the side, even if the track is ballasted. This method is so easy.
Drill a hole next to the rail where you want the feeder on the inside not outside. Angle it slightly towards the out side. Cut,strip, bend and heavily tin a feeder wire about 4¡± long. This part does NOT work well with a resistance station so I use my trusty Hakko! See pic below:
?
Now take a file shaped like the one in the picture below right by the hole in the roadbed to clean and scratch up the bottom of the rail for about 1/2¡±. This is the most IMPORTANT step in the whole process.
?
Next apply flux to the cleaned area on the bottom of the rail with a toothpick. Bend the feeder into the shape below.
?
Now push the feeder wire down the hole until it is sitting like this.
?
Here is where your resistance soldering tweezers shine. As you pull the wire down from underneath the roadbed that bend in the wire will let the angled end shift to under the rail. Now push it up and hit with high heat for 2 seconds and the solder on the wire will combine with the flux underneath the rail and form a solid joint. See below:
You certainly can use a conventional iron but the instant on and off of heat using resistance helps you to not affect plastic ties so much.
I hope you will try this method as I¡¯ve been using it for years and has strongly reduced my angst at what I used to dread doing.
Have fun!
Peter
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FWIW,
I always try to solder the feeders to each piece of rail before placing it on the layout surface; preferably on the bottom of the rail. I do this at the workbench en masse. Turnouts too.
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I use liquid flux and apply it to the feeder wire ("L") and the bottom of the rail piece.
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I then apply some solder to both until the solder is shiny. You can then place them together and heat the "joint" enough to melt the solder on the two pieces together. A little more solder added to your iron before doing this can't hurt.
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I always use an old toothbrush and some cheap rubbing alcohol to clean each joint afterward, a little over kill for the type of flux I use, but I do it anyway.
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If the rail is already in place on the layout surface, or I'm doing a repair, I follow Allan's instructions.
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Have fun!
dan
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Re: power district gaps and other questions.
***Thx John- that would solve my problem exactly.
The way Ed at NCE explained awhile ago, they like the boosters ( SB DB DB )? all together,
?and cross grounded.
The connectors that come with my DB5s were short, unit to unit.
Which means LONG power bus wiring to my two outlying locations / zones.
I will let you talk to Ed and let us all know...THX Bill*-*
On Sunday, February 2, 2025 at 01:07:12 PM EST, JOHN BISHOP <john_bishop@...> wrote:
Alan,
Sure.? I can ask NCE tomorrow.?
But for your information, I have attached? the page on the NCE DB5, showing its connection to the SB5.??
A Powercab becomes a Procab when plugged into a booster, instead of its own powered fascia unit with the red light.?
So for my programing track, I plug the Power Cab into its red light plate which goes to the programing track (the Power cab has enough amps for programing)
?And for running on the layout I plug it into a UTP connected to an SB5 booster (which gives the amps to run multiple trains) which is connected to the layout and the control bus, which goes to other UTPs around the layout.??
So I wonder if I can just plug the DB5 into one of the UTPs, and then connect to the SB5 with a 12 gauge ground wire.? The diagram makes me think so.
John
On Sunday, February 2, 2025 at 06:42:39 AM PST, Allan AE2V <bigboy@...> wrote:
John,
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You got me on this one.? I don't have any knowledge of the DB5 and I haven't seen an SB5 up close and in person.? Everyone around here either has a Power Cab without expanding it or a Pro Cab system.
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I don't see the DB5 on NCE's website.? It may be discontinued.? If you don't have your documentation for it, NCE can probably provide it.
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I'd ask your question of NCE.? NCE's support is support@....? Let me know what you find out. ?
Allan
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I found forceps on Amazon.?
Mabis Kelly Forceps
5.5 inches long
Serrated precision tip
$4.23
Purchased 2 just in case I would somehow solder to rail...........
On 12/09/2024 5:10 PM CST Allan AE2V <bigboy@...> wrote:
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The soldering tweezers and the forceps are very close to one another, but you are not trying to solder exactly the same spot.? The wire is formed into a little "L" and laid against the rail.? Depending on your skill and how particular you are, how small you can make the "L".? There is no hard and fast rule about how long you make the "L" and whether you attach the forceps near the bend of the "L" or at the end of the "L".??
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Sometimes you will find that the feeder will lay up against the side of the rail without the need to use forceps at all.??
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Definitely practice on some scrap pieces of track and see what works best for you.? We all have pieces of track that are too short to use, but for whatever reason, we don't want to throw them away! :)
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There is no particular brand of forceps you need to use.? You are just trying to hold the feeder in place if it won't stay in position on its own.? Forceps do come in different sizes.? It may be hard to get the real small ones to grip the rail.? The real big ones have a big tip and put a lot of twisting motion on the rail.? I just measured the ones I have.? They are 5" long.? Another inch or two probably won't matter, but I wouldn't go bigger than that.? Some also have a curved end.? These tend to want to fall over.? So I recommend straight forceps.??
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Allan Gartner
Wiring for DCC
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Re: power district gaps and other questions.
Alan,
Sure.? I can ask NCE tomorrow.?
But for your information, I have attached? the page on the NCE DB5, showing its connection to the SB5.??
A Powercab becomes a Procab when plugged into a booster, instead of its own powered fascia unit with the red light.?
So for my programing track, I plug the Power Cab into its red light plate which goes to the programing track (the Power cab has enough amps for programing)
?And for running on the layout I plug it into a UTP connected to an SB5 booster (which gives the amps to run multiple trains) which is connected to the layout and the control bus, which goes to other UTPs around the layout.??
So I wonder if I can just plug the DB5 into one of the UTPs, and then connect to the SB5 with a 12 gauge ground wire.? The diagram makes me think so.
John
On Sunday, February 2, 2025 at 06:42:39 AM PST, Allan AE2V <bigboy@...> wrote:
John,
?
You got me on this one.? I don't have any knowledge of the DB5 and I haven't seen an SB5 up close and in person.? Everyone around here either has a Power Cab without expanding it or a Pro Cab system.
?
I don't see the DB5 on NCE's website.? It may be discontinued.? If you don't have your documentation for it, NCE can probably provide it.
?
I'd ask your question of NCE.? NCE's support is support@....? Let me know what you find out. ?
Allan
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Re: Auto Reverse Help/Suggestions
Hi Rob,
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It's challenging to analyze complex layouts that are compressed into a single drawing.? I do see the crossover in sections 9-10.? Make 1-8 a reversing section, in addition to the reversing section I mentioned the other day and you will be fine.
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I don't know what scale your layout is.? If HO or larger, three boosters would probably be good if you have them.? If you yard area will have a lot of idling locos, it might be on one booster.? Everything to the left of it could be a second booster and everything to the right could be a third.
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If your turntable is a Walthers, it has mechanical reverser.? If all the tracks entering it have the same polarity, you won't need to add an electronic reverser.? If they don't have the same polarity, you will need to add an electronic reversers.? See my book, "DCC and Model Railroading" and the reversing sections of my website,
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Allan Gartner
Wiring for DCC
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Re: power district gaps and other questions.
John,
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You got me on this one.? I don't have any knowledge of the DB5 and I haven't seen an SB5 up close and in person.? Everyone around here either has a Power Cab without expanding it or a Pro Cab system.
?
I don't see the DB5 on NCE's website.? It may be discontinued.? If you don't have your documentation for it, NCE can probably provide it.
?
I'd ask your question of NCE.? NCE's support is support@....? Let me know what you find out. ?
Allan
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Re: power district gaps and other questions.
Allan, thanks, I'll do that.??
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One more question.??
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I have fascia plates to plug in my Powercab to the control bus located at various points on my layout, including? one very close to where I will relocate the booster for the new, second power district.
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The dumb booster (NCE DB 5)? has to be daisy chained to the smart booster.? Can I? accomplish that by plugging the DB5 into the control bus at the existing plate?? Then I only have to run the "ground" to the SB5 (using? 12 gauge wire).
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Thanks so much for your help with what may seem like elementary questions.?
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By the way, I really like your new book. Easy to understand for us electronics amateurs.?
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John
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Re: Auto Reverse Help/Suggestions
Thank you for the response. I know that I will need another auto reverse for the turntable but to keep the yard consistent would I also need one on one of the tracks between sections 7 and 9? (File in New Track Plan 26jan25). Also I was thinking of three boosters basically one for each long section does that make sense?
-- Rob Fuhst Grand Haven, MI
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Re: power district gaps and other questions.
***Allan -
I just measured it out, power bus longest run is 17 feet to connect to the outlying sections...THX Bill*-*
On Saturday, February 1, 2025 at 03:08:32 PM EST, railroadbills via groups.io <railroadbills@...> wrote:
**Hi Allan -
**Reading your fine book again....? I have about 170 feet of double track main line, NCE SB3 and two DB5s...
NCE likes the cases on these grounded together, I take that as meaning close to each other.
?That makes my power bus wires longer to the two outlying zones.... THX Bill*-*
On Saturday, February 1, 2025 at 02:15:40 PM EST, Allan AE2V <bigboy@...> wrote:
John,
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You should mount your boosters central to the district they power.? Ideally, you want the distance from the endpoint of each track bus to the booster to be 30 feet or less.? Mounting your second booster next to the first, uses up 25 of those 30 feet.
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Allan
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Re: power district gaps and other questions.
**Hi Allan -
**Reading your fine book again....? I have about 170 feet of double track main line, NCE SB3 and two DB5s...
NCE likes the cases on these grounded together, I take that as meaning close to each other.
?That makes my power bus wires longer to the two outlying zones.... THX Bill*-*
On Saturday, February 1, 2025 at 02:15:40 PM EST, Allan AE2V <bigboy@...> wrote:
John,
?
You should mount your boosters central to the district they power.? Ideally, you want the distance from the endpoint of each track bus to the booster to be 30 feet or less.? Mounting your second booster next to the first, uses up 25 of those 30 feet.
?
Allan
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Re: power district gaps and other questions.
John,
?
You should mount your boosters central to the district they power.? Ideally, you want the distance from the endpoint of each track bus to the booster to be 30 feet or less.? Mounting your second booster next to the first, uses up 25 of those 30 feet.
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Allan
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Re: power district gaps and other questions.
Jon,
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I thought steel was the better connector. Guy argued with me that you need extra feeders for steel because it was a poor conductor. So thanks.
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I prefer steel.? It has better adhesion. Nickle silver is slippery.? Fortunately, I live is So Cal, where humidity is not a problem.? Also there is more wheel rail contact in O scale, so while the rail needs to be kept clean, its not as fussy.
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John
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Re: power district gaps and other questions.
My layout is an oval about 4X7. Part of the oval is a staging area. Mine is developed so that 2-3 people can operate. One as the staging person and 1-2 doing operations. Since there will be more than one person operating, I elected to sub-divide my layout into 4 zone. The booster feeds a PM-42 to power the 4 zones. This is to keep from one operator accidentally shorting the track and shutting down the entire layout. Each zone has a run of 14 gauge wire running the entire length of the layout. Track in each zone is connected with 22 gauge wire via snap-on connectors.
On Friday, January 31, 2025 at 03:56:49 PM CST, Mark Wescott via groups.io <markwescott1829@...> wrote:
How does one determine the ¡°length¡± of a layout when it is a oval? Total run of track (doubled for a 2 track main); or total linear distance from one end to the other?
Are the terms ¡°small layout,¡± ¡°medium layout,¡± and ¡°large layout¡± defined?
I am asking because I have a Power Cab and would like to know if I need a booster or two.?
Mark Wescott?
Hi John,
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If you have two booster outputs tied together, definitely stop that immediately.
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If you layout is 75 feet long (I do not know what you mean by "current point."), I would break it into two districts and locate a booster at the middle of each one.? Do not stagger your gaps by 6".? I've never staggered gaps between booster districts.
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Connect the cases of your boosters together with at least a 16 gauge wire.? It's hard to get a heavy gauge wire under the screw of a case, so I have a terminal strip next to my boosters.? I run a short (about 8") 18 gauge wire and then run 14 gauge wires between the boosters terminal strips.
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Since your distance from your boosters to the end of each booster district is only about 19 feet, you probably don't need snubbers, but if you do find you need them or want them, they would go at the end of each booster district.
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Nickel silver track is a steel allow.? It does not contain silver and I don't think it has any nickel either.? It gets its name from the color of the metal.? Place track feeders about every 6 feet.
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For more on layouts, see my book, "DCC and Model Railroading" (available from Trains.com or Amazon, Walthers, or Ron's Books) and my website, .
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Allan Gartner
Wiring for DCC
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peterebherron
DanBrewer