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Re: DCC Distribution comments, please
wirefordcc
Blair,
Regarding PS2012: I prefer to have a power source with each booster/command station. Given the cost of individual power sources and the PS2012, there really isn't a cost advantage either way. The PS20212 surprises me as a product because I thought Digitrax was one of the manufacturers that advised against using a common power source for their boosters. Note that the Digitrax command station and boosters can be powered by AC sources. DC is not required. Loconet plugs: The only reason to have more Loconet plugs is if someone comes over to operate that doesn't have wireless capability. Loconet: There is no practical restriction as to how long your Loconet can be. You can run it anywhere, anyway you want to. Feeder length: Feeder lengths of 24" is not advised, but if you can pass the short test (see ) you can do it. You might want to consider branching off your main bus with more 14 AWG sub buses to get shorter feeder lenghts. |
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Re: DCC Distribution comments, please
Allan, others
Schema posted last night, and previous file moved (one note - the schema posted uses letters to designate connections; they are not related to the letters used on the floor plan). In the schema, be advised that the yards depicted vary from 8 to 12 tracks in width. The schema also doesn't show a couple of important details; the CNR and CPR will either both have, or both have access to, a reversing loop to allow trains in staging to be turned for reuse in the same, or subsequent, sessions. The loops will be embedded in the peninsula that starts at E. In addition, the future existence of a helix at D and engine turning Y tracks at A and B were omitted. Further thoughts/data: I will be wiring the DCC bus with 14/2 Romex, stripped and twisted; each run from the DCS100 will either run direct to the layout uninterrupted, or pass through a PM42 or equivalent power distribution centre; other than a few T-joints, which can have the main bus uninterrupted, there will be no breaks or other connections to introduce higher impedance in the busses. However, I am likely to have feeder stretches up to about 24" (actually 48" of wire). Feeders will run to every piece of track and switch, I'm not fond of soldering joiners unless I really need to for physical alignment. Considering all of the above, I think my best bet is to locate boosters at D(feeds BC, helix) & E (feeds BFG) , with the command station to the right of A (feeding left of A thru to H). The duct (A-B) will be used to feed loconet signals from A to B to D/E, but not a DCC bus. Of the three locations, A will be the most accessible, so it is a good spot to put UR91, DCS100. Does anyone have any experience with the PS2012 from Digitrax? It looks good, but I wonder about, in my situation, running a long DC bus from A to D and E to get the power to these boosters. It may make a lot more sense to have localized DC supplies than to buss that around the layout. Turning to the loconet topic, the layout will be DT400R/UT4 operated, with perhaps a Zephyr for one or more of the yards (a friend's layout is Zephyr controlled, and he would like to utilize it on my layout so his young daughters can participate. my guess is once they use a UT4, this issue will go away, but...) In order to control the yards, it would seem to me that I want loconet plugs, at a minimum, at each yard. However, are there other good reasons for wanting them along the right-of-way? I can't see it. I suppose one long run around the layout from yard to yard could always be broken into later to install UP5 panels, but if I can, I'd like to avoid that. Funny, the process of writing this down for the list and thinking it through leaves me with a workable plan, I think. If anyone can see pitfalls, or better approaches, please fire away . Regards Blair Smith |
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Re: question about MRC auto reverse unit........
--- In WiringForDCC@..., "trainman2435" <trainman2435@y...>
wrote: Steve Connect the two red wires of the AD520 to your DCC output from your booster and the two yellow wires to the section of track for the reverse loop. You must double gap the track at the isolation points. If the reverse loop uses the same turnout for entry/exit you can use a switch/microswitch that is operated when the turnout is operated, thus saving the use of the AD520 for something else like a return loop, a wye or a turntable. The turnout has to be operated to turn a train, so this same "operation" can operate a switch/microswitch/relay etc. Marcus |
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question about MRC auto reverse unit........
trainman2435
hello everyone, im new here and i have a question. i purchased a MRC
AD520 auto reverse unit about 6 or 8 months ago. since then i have gotten my layout ready and need to install it. i am useing the new Prodigy Advance DCC system and i need to control a reverse loop. the unit itself has two yellow wires and two red wires. can someone tell me where these hook to? i have lost the directions that came with the AD520 since i bought it. any information is greatly appreciated. thanks! steve |
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Re: DCC Distribution comments, please
Allan
Yes, I'm familiar with your website. The hole in the wall for wire is possible, but as the offending wall is 10" concrete block, I'll only do it if it saves me significant effort in wiring. As an electronics tech, the wiring doesn't intimidate me, I just want to check my ideas against the thoughts of those who have done this more than I have. As for the DCS100 vs Booster debate, money is a concern as it is for most, but I also see advantages to having equipment commonality, as opposed to multiple different items, so it's a tradeoff. I should give you some data about the layout as it is presently envisaged; I'll post a schematic later this PM. Thanks Blair Smith |
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Re: DCC Distribution comments, please
wirefordcc
Blair,
Thanks for posting the detailed drawing. I will think about your layout some more over the weekend. I'm sure some of the other people will have a few comments for you. Here are a few of my initial thoughts. You seem to have a good grasp of the "30' rule," so I will assume you are familar with my website. Have you considered punching a hole in the wall to run your bus through it? That would be one way to shorten one of your buses. In deciding where your boosters will go, you need to think about the loading on the boosters. Are you likely to have one or more places on your layout that will have a concentration of running locos? That may not change any of your plans, but it is something you need to consider. I suspect you will need a DCS100 and 2 boosters (or DCS100's operating in booster-only mode). |
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DCC Distribution comments, please
I have a fairly ambitious layout a-building, and it's time I considered DCC
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power distribution. I have posted a PDF to the files section of this group, named "ACR 20040402b DCC.pdf", to give you an idea of dimensions, constraints, etc. What I'm looking for is creative ideas for power distribution within the room, presuming a single level layout. I'm trying to keep busses to a max of 30' from a DCS100, but that rule isn't firm. I believe the room could be served by two DCS100 (5A), located at A and B, in terms of my expected traffic loading - up to 15 HO diesels running at any one time, with another 30 in staging tracks). Each DCS100 will feed at least one PM42. However, I'm concerned about total feed length around the LHS. I may be better served with three DCS100, one each at A, D, and E. (the link shown from A to B represents the availability of a below-floor duct, but to extend power buss across this is silly - total length consumed is about 12', to what end?) I'm sure I haven't given enough info, but please just ask away. Blair Smith -----Original Message-----
From: Ulrich Albrecht [mailto:albreuf@...] Sent: March 31, 2005 12:49 To: WiringForDCC@... Subject: Re: [WiringForDCC] Digest Number 8 I did not want to scare anyone off DCC, but would actually encourage everyone to take this route. I would only recommend that everything is working fine under DC so that the conversion experience does not become a pain. All too often, one blames DCC for problems that are actually old DC-problems. My main concern is that the wiring needs to be able to ahndle the loads. Yes locos use the same current under DCC as under DC, but on a DC layout running six engines this load is distributed between 3-4 power packs, while under DCC all may go through one wire at a certain point. This may result in poor performance due to voltage drop or overheating of the wire. Ulrich On 31 Mar 2005 WiringForDCC@... wrote:
Yahoo! Groups Links |
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New file uploaded to WiringForDCC
Hello,
This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the WiringForDCC group. File : /ACR Plan 20050402b - DCC.pdf Uploaded by : camsysca <smithbr@...> Description : Basement Layout for DCC Distribution discussion You can access this file at the URL: To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: Regards, camsysca <smithbr@...> |
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Re: Wiring a Shinahora Double Crossover for DCC
Vollrath, Don
A couple more comments
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1. Note the close proximity of rails of opposite polarity near the frog points. This is where extra wide wheel treads and out of gauge wheel sets may contact both rails. Also there are rail-rail bonding ties at the bottom of the wheel flange trench at the frog. these are supposed to be burried into the plastic but on 2 of my samples are actually exposed. Older wheel sets with oversized flanges can touch the wrong rail polarity while rolling through. 2. Making the the switch DCC friendly includes making the 'unused' point rail the same polarity as the adjacent stock rail. In most cases including this one, it requires cutting gaps in the closure rails just before they reach the frog as Allan has shown. But this becomes an 'unfriendly' DCC problem only when using older oversized or out of gauge wheels or only when there is an actual derailment. Good running wheel sets should not be brushing their backside against the other point rail when it is open. If you are willing to gamble on that, then you don't have to cut any rail gaps. Just let both point rails become the same polarity as the frog, as originally designed. 3. The original Shinohara design uses a copper strap at the points as a sliding switch to selectively power the point rails and frog to the right stock rail polarity as each switch is thrown. This works OK but has all the potenital of poor electrical contact due to oxidation, dirt, etc. Ditto for where the point rails swivel. One needs to add continuity jumpers around the swivel point to fix that particular problem. [Making the swivel joint with rail joiner-like clips is better than rivets, but still subject to ageing problems.] Adding an external electrical switch to provide a better electrical connection to point and closure rails is necessary to avoid the problems of a dirty or work copper contact at the rail points. JMNust make sure that the electrical switch transfers power while neither point contact is touching. 4. If you add the external supplementry switch as in #3, and are willing to live with or eliminate the problem of #2, You don't need to cut any new rail gaps. The problem of the exposed built in bonding wire being exposed of #1 can be avoided by simply throwing all four throwbars to be in the same position at the same time. Easy to do if you are using 4 tortiose machines. DonV -----Original Message-----
From: wirefordcc [mailto:wire4dcc_admin@...] Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 7:11 PM To: WiringForDCC@... Subject: [WiringForDCC] Re: Wiring a Shinahora Double Crossover for DCC Here's a drawing of the double crossover that shows what Don is talking about. Allan Yahoo! Groups Links |
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Re: Digest Number 8
Ulrich Albrecht
I did not want to scare anyone off DCC, but would actually encourage
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everyone to take this route. I would only recommend that everything is working fine under DC so that the conversion experience does not become a pain. All too often, one blames DCC for problems that are actually old DC-problems. My main concern is that the wiring needs to be able to ahndle the loads. Yes locos use the same current under DCC as under DC, but on a DC layout running six engines this load is distributed between 3-4 power packs, while under DCC all may go through one wire at a certain point. This may result in poor performance due to voltage drop or overheating of the wire. Ulrich On 31 Mar 2005 WiringForDCC@... wrote:
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Rewiring an existing layout for DCC
Hi Paul
I agree with what Dale has said and all that Allan with his Wiring for DCC site suggests, Ulrich has stated what I have termed, "too many negatives to go to DCC" and has scared off many a potential DCCer. A lot of home layouts will not need 2, 3 etc boosters and will never reach the full potential of one booster's designed current limit. They will only run one to say 4 or 5 locos, and that would be with a few operators. I would encourage any modeller contemplating going to DCC to reap the rewards that are available in DCC, to JUST connect a DCC system to his layout, with one proviso, use a 12 volt "1156" or similar lamp in series with one track feeder, but the booster will never cut out with a short, the lamp illuminates and gives a "very" visual warning. This will protect the layouts wiring and limit the total number of locos on the track running at one time, but at least a single opertor will be happily operating with DCC and enjoying all the new found features that DCC brings with the minimum effort and all done in a few hours and that includes fitting a decoder. A DCC equipped loco does not draw anymore current than its dc equivalent, maybe a few milliamps more to power the electronics but thats all. I have over 100 Peco turnouts in code 100 and have not converted any of them to "DCC Friendly". I would only convert installed turnouts if they are causing a problem, and only after I have done things like improve track alignment and correct any wheel sets that are out of gauge, this will correct most problems. I have progressively changed my layout as the need arises and have used all the information that Allan and others have provided on his web site, to answer my own questions and help me understand the "wiring problems". With my recommendation, you will address a problem when it presents itself, otherwise don't worry yourself about some things that never happen, but at least you are running in DCC and not thinking about how to modify all your turnouts and rewiring your layout and never getting to DCC. At a later stage you will probably rewire sections or the whole of you layout. If starting from scatch, then yes, wire system as it suggested in these pages, modify turnouts prior to fitting and wire in power zones. There is NO substitute for good wiring practices. Marcus --- In WiringForDCC@..., Ulrich Albrecht <albreuf@m...> wrote: Paul,is that if everything works under DC, just hook up a DCC booster, andthings will work. In my opinion, this has to be taken with a grain ofsalt, and here are my reasons:like Digitrax DB150 or DCS100, the maximum output is 5A, while a goodpower pack in DC may deliver 2A. You may end up overloading your DCwiring with a DCC-booster. I rewired my lauout completely.particular to turnouts. A metal whell that short circuits a turnout may not bebut it will trigger the booster.bus (actually I would use AVG# 14 or lower when rewiring). The #18 iso.k. unless your loads will exceed 3A, in this case it will cause avoltage drop. Also make sure that all your wheels are in gauge, so thatthey do not touch parts of switches which are connected to opposite outputsof the booster. As far as Peco turnouts are concerned, I have noexperience, but if you do not have a short under DC, your set-up should work exceptfor b).to DCC. I haveElectrofrog Peco turnouts. I have heard that if you putinsulators on thefrog rails and the stock rails of the switch, I won't have totear them outand re-wire them? Any ideas? |
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Re: Wiring a Shinahora Double Crossover for DCC
Vollrath, Don
Keep both main tracks at the same polarity. [i.e - Wire both North rails to be at the same polarity. Don't make a figure 8 loop crossing through the crossover.]
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Throw all 4 turnouts to be in the same position to avoid momentary shorts at the frogs. No track cuts or special wiring is required. For further enhancement, add continuity jumpers around point rail swivels and add microswitches (or a latching relay) to your switch machines to help electrify the point rails in parallel with the Shinohara built in contacts at the rail points. Be sure that the microswitches 'click' with the throw bar near mid position. DonV -----Original Message-----
From: barryleejohnson [mailto:johnson4@...] Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 1:02 AM To: WiringForDCC@... Subject: [WiringForDCC] Wiring a Shinahora Double Crossover for DCC Can any one help here. I have several of this crossovers and understand that they can be a problem with shorting on DCC if the wiring is not corrected. Are there any artilces I can obtain or can anyone point me in the right direction. I have looked at the double slip but they seem to be differently laid out. BarryJ Yahoo! Groups Links |
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Wiring a Shinahora Double Crossover for DCC
barryleejohnson
Can any one help here. I have several of this crossovers and
understand that they can be a problem with shorting on DCC if the wiring is not corrected. Are there any artilces I can obtain or can anyone point me in the right direction. I have looked at the double slip but they seem to be differently laid out. BarryJ |
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Re: Using Peco Electrofrog turnouts
wirefordcc
Its time again to remind everyone it is your railroad. As long as
it works, you can do what you want to. What I try to give in my website is bulletproof advice that will definitely work for everyone. You don't have to cut your turnouts if you don't want to. However, don't half follow the advice - meaning don't add any jumpers if you don't make the cuts. A short will develop in the case of the Peco Electrofrog. One other thing I want to make sure I mention is that if you are power routing any sidings, you may want to consider powering them directly from a DCC bus. As previously mentioned about DCC and DC currents, you may run into problems. It may work fine for several years and then start giving you problems. You keep mentioning putting insulated joiners on your turnout so I presume that you will not be power routing your sidings. So this caution is aimed at someone else who may come along and read this posting. Definitely you want to make sure you are using at least 18 AWG bus wiring. And finally, the most important thing you should do when converting a DC layout to DCC is give the ENTIRE layout the short test. Hook up your booster and go around the layout with a quater or a pair of pliers and short the track. Make sure your booster trips immediately. Flip every turnout and test again. If your booster doesn't trip, either your wiring is inadequate or your power routing of your turnouts is inadequate. If you are power routing your turnouts using your turnout's points, add some sort of switch or relay to do your power routing for you. |
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Re: Digest Number 4
Paul,
as I said in my previous post, if your layout runs correctly on DC then it will run correctly on DCC. However, as Ulrich has pointed out, it is easy to ignore or not notice little glitches that occur on DC that will cause DCC to shut down. Those little hesitations in a switch with DC could be temporary shorts that will cause the DCC system to shutdown and stop all trains. So be critical when evaluating how your layout performs on DC before you can say that it functions correctly. Go ahead and just connect up your DCC system but don't be surprised if your properly operating DC layout turns out to have some glitches that will be exposed by DCC. Regarding cutting up switches. This is heresey on Allan's forum - BUT - you don't need to perform any of the modifications just because you are switching to DCC. And all the modifications actually apply to DC as well. The modifications describe how to make switches trouble free forever. On my previous layout, I used Peco Electrofrog swithces and did not do any of the mods. On both DC and DCC I had the usual problems of poor contact, etc. when depending on point rails to make contact with stock rails for power. On my new layout I have made the mods on all switches as I installed them. Regarding Ulrich's comments on wiring. Rewiring is a good idea following the priciples that are also given by Allan and others. however, to get started, you probably don't need to. Start running DCC and if you find trouble spots, address those first and then develop a plan to do the wiring conversion in stages so you can keep your railroad running and upgrade it at the same time. It can be done. Dale. --- In WiringForDCC@..., Ulrich Albrecht <albreuf@m...> wrote: Paul,DCC is that if everything works under DC, just hook up a DCC booster, andthings will work. In my opinion, this has to be taken with a grain ofsalt, and here are my reasons:like Digitrax DB150 or DCS100, the maximum output is 5A, while a goodpower pack in DC may deliver 2A. You may end up overloading your DCwiring with a DCC-booster. I rewired my lauout completely.particular to turnouts. A metal whell that short circuits a turnout may not beshort, but it will trigger the booster.power bus (actually I would use AVG# 14 or lower when rewiring). The #18 iso.k. unless your loads will exceed 3A, in this case it will cause avoltage drop. Also make sure that all your wheels are in gauge, so thatthey do not touch parts of switches which are connected to oppositeoutputs of the booster. As far as Peco turnouts are concerned, I have noexperience, but if you do not have a short under DC, your set-up should workexcept for b). |
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Re: Digest Number 4
Ulrich Albrecht
Paul,
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One of the statements I often heard about conversion from DC to DCC is that if everything works under DC, just hook up a DCC booster, and things will work. In my opinion, this has to be taken with a grain of salt, and here are my reasons: a) DC uses much lower current loads than DCC. I you use a booster like Digitrax DB150 or DCS100, the maximum output is 5A, while a good power pack in DC may deliver 2A. You may end up overloading your DC wiring with a DCC-booster. I rewired my lauout completely. b) DC is much less sensitive to shorts than DCC. This applies particular to turnouts. A metal whell that short circuits a turnout may not be noticed by the DC powerpack due to the short duration of the short, but it will trigger the booster. My sugestion, rewire the whole thing unless you have a AVG#18 power bus (actually I would use AVG# 14 or lower when rewiring). The #18 is o.k. unless your loads will exceed 3A, in this case it will cause a voltage drop. Also make sure that all your wheels are in gauge, so that they do not touch parts of switches which are connected to opposite outputs of the booster. As far as Peco turnouts are concerned, I have no experience, but if you do not have a short under DC, your set-up should work except for b). Ulrich --- In WiringForDCC@..., sawlumber@a... wrote:I have an existing layout. I'm getting ready to change over toDCC. I haveElectrofrog Peco turnouts. I have heard that if you putinsulators on thefrog rails and the stock rails of the switch, I won't have totear them outand re-wire them? Any ideas? |
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Re: switches and lights
Vollrath, Don
Not directly, if I understand your question correctly.
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The Atlas Snap Switches (the turnout) have a metal but non-powered frog. You can power the frog by using external microswitches or relays, one of which is also called an Atlas Snap-Switch. This device is a twin coil mechanical latching relay that can be wired in parallel with the Atlas twin coil switch machine that operates the turnout. The contacts of this relay can then be used to power the frog at the right polarity or operate a signal circuit. Once you have that, look at Allan's wiring aids at . DonV -----Original Message-----
From: Les Crawford [mailto:cei300@...] Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2005 8:25 AM To: WiringForDCC@... Subject: [WiringForDCC] switches and lights Good Morning, I am new to this list and my question is: Is it possible using Atlas snap switches and DCC, to connect a two light signal to it, to show red or green depending on which way the switch is, without having to do it manually? Thank you for any help. Les Canadian Eastern Inland RR |
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switches and lights
Les Crawford
Good Morning, I am new to this list and my question is:
Is it possible using Atlas snap switches and DCC, to connect a two light signal to it, to show red or green depending on which way the switch is, without having to do it manually? Thank you for any help. Les Canadian Eastern Inland RR |
Dale Gloer
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