Re: Scotchlok bus punctures
On Friday, August 6, 2021, 07:37:52 PM EDT, Blair <smithbr@...> wrote:
Hi Ken
I have a T25M stapler which successfully fires Arrow T25
staples.? Both are made by Arrow.? The T25 staples are "#256"
according to the package, and were purchased three weeks ago at a
Home Hardware here in Eastern Ontario, Canada.
I searched Amazon.com (USA) with the term "Arrow T25 staple #256"
and got several hits, so they're available.? Maybe try Home Depot
or Lowes?
Blair
On 2021-08-06 10:54, Ken Harstine
wrote:
Please fill me in on where to get cable staples for the T-25M
style staplers.? I found some Klein Coax staples but so far
nothing else.
Best,
Ken Harstine
Holyoke, MA
|
Re: Scotchlok bus punctures
Hi Ken
I have a T25M stapler which successfully fires Arrow T25
staples.? Both are made by Arrow.? The T25 staples are "#256"
according to the package, and were purchased three weeks ago at a
Home Hardware here in Eastern Ontario, Canada.
I searched Amazon.com (USA) with the term "Arrow T25 staple #256"
and got several hits, so they're available.? Maybe try Home Depot
or Lowes?
Blair
On 2021-08-06 10:54, Ken Harstine
wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Please fill me in on where to get cable staples for the T-25M
style staplers.? I found some Klein Coax staples but so far
nothing else.
Best,
Ken Harstine
Holyoke, MA
|
PSX Circuit Breaker Issue
Hi - I have two PSX Circuit Breakers, I’ll call them PSX1 and PSX2. I have an inner loop of track and an outer loop of track. If I have a loco running on a loop, and I intentionally short out the other loop, the locomotive will stop momentarily, then run for 3 or 4 seconds, then stop again, so on and so forth. I thought with the PSX circuit breakers, a short on one would have no effect whatsoever on the other??
So then I thought maybe my two loops were not totally electrically isolated, so I checked that by disconnecting one of the buses to one of the PSX’s, and I didn’t have any track power on that loop, so I know it was not electrically connected to the other loop.
I’m running a Digitrax system, N scale. I’ve installed the “digitrax” jumper on the PSX’s. My isolation sections between the two loops are 3/4 inch or more apart per the PSX directions.?
Any ideas or is the stop and go of the loco on the non shorted loop normal? ?Thanks.
|
Re: Scotchlok bus punctures
Please fill me in on where to get cable staples for the T-25M style staplers.? I found some Klein Coax staples but so far nothing else.
Best,
Ken Harstine
Holyoke, MA
|
Jim
However, it seems there is a distinction to be made at times.
Some/most block detection devices apparently report false
occupation erratically if the block's bus wires DOWNSTREAM of the
detector are twisted; similarly, if you twist your feeders, they
could cause this problem.?
So, twist your busses ahead of the block detectors by all means,
but do some research before you twist the wires leading from the
detector to the feeders to the rails.? I don't have a definitive
list of which detection systems are more/less susceptible to this,
perhaps others could add some info to this.
Blair
On 2021-08-06 12:17, Jim Betz wrote:
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Show quoted text
Hi,
? The adage "if it ain't broke don't fix it" is a good one.?
? Having said?that - if you are doing -new- wiring (even of a
small
section of an otherwise untwisted and existing layout) then
twisting
the bus is the recommended practice -?and there is no reason not
to do so.? There have not been any?problems caused by twisted bus
wires.
? The RPs for bus wire and feeder wire sizes are also "best
practices"
and should be followed for all new/replaced wiring.? As are the
recommendations for "separating wiring used for different purposes
from each other (as much as is possible/easy).? One of the most
common sources of wiring interference problems is the "neat?
freak" who just has to take a bunch of different wires and tie
wrap
them all together in a cosmetically nice bundle (by different
wires
I'm talking about wires for different purposes - such as bundling
the
track power with the signaling bus).
? Although there are many, many layouts that have reported "no
problems" with untwisted bus wires - and I am not saying those
reports are wrong ... IF you have ever had to personally deal
with a layout that is having trouble with untwisted bus wires (and
DCC) then you will be in the "twist camp" - and will recommend
that all new bus wiring be twisted.? The amount of effort to twist
(before the wire is run/strung) is far less than "fixing it
afterward".
? Again - there is no reason to rework/rewire a working layout.
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?- Jim
|
Joseph,
Feel free to ask your newbie wiring questions.? That is what this group is for.
Allan Gartner
Wiring for DCC
|
I am a 'hope to learn rather newbie' but I am embarrassed?to post/ask question on the group page.
Joseph A "Jody" Correro Jr. Mississippi
"Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away!"
On Fri, Aug 6, 2021 at 7:45 AM Don Weigt < dweigt47@...> wrote: As I rebuild my layout in a new-to-us home in a different state, I'm getting ready to divide it into four power districts, with four EasyDCC double zone boosters. Auto Reversing outputs from two of the boosters will handle reversing loops at each end, while the remaining zones will handle the? rest of the layout.
Originally wired for about 64 blocks with DC power, I'm reducing that to 32 blocks for DCC only operation, keeping just enough blocks, in my opinion, for a simple signal system and fault isolation.
The whole layout was run as one power district from one home brew 4 Amp booster for nearly 20 years. I had no problems with it, running up to four single loco powered trains at a time, which was all the layout really could handle, although a planned logging branch would have added one more, and someone could have hosteled locos in the roundhouse and turntable area. The only annoyance was all the trains slowing or stopping if something shorted on the track, usually from running into a power routing turnout set for the other route.
Don Weigt Connecticut
|
Kudos to Jim. If what you have is working, don't bother to try to re-twist an existing?layout. That was my condition for the layout I dismantled last year. Twenty years, 25-foot runs, no twist and no problems. When I build the next layout, I'll twist the wires because it's not that hard to do and it might be a benefit. If I had a big layout with problems and the answer MIGHT be twisting the wires, then I might consider it or a portion of it.
....Tom
On Fri, Aug 6, 2021 at 9:17 AM Jim Betz < jimbetz@...> wrote: Hi,
? The adage "if it ain't broke don't fix it" is a good one.?
? Having said?that - if you are doing -new- wiring (even of a small
section of an otherwise untwisted and existing layout) then twisting
the bus is the recommended practice -?and there is no reason not
to do so.? There have not been any?problems caused by twisted bus
wires.
? The RPs for bus wire and feeder wire sizes are also "best practices"
and should be followed for all new/replaced wiring.? As are the
recommendations for "separating wiring used for different purposes
from each other (as much as is possible/easy).? One of the most
common sources of wiring interference problems is the "neat?
freak" who just has to take a bunch of different wires and tie wrap
them all together in a cosmetically nice bundle (by different wires
I'm talking about wires for different purposes - such as bundling the
track power with the signaling bus).
? Although there are many, many layouts that have reported "no
problems" with untwisted bus wires - and I am not saying those
reports are wrong ... IF you have ever had to personally deal
with a layout that is having trouble with untwisted bus wires (and
DCC) then you will be in the "twist camp" - and will recommend
that all new bus wiring be twisted.? The amount of effort to twist
(before the wire is run/strung) is far less than "fixing it afterward".
? Again - there is no reason to rework/rewire a working layout.
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?- Jim
|
Hi,
? The adage "if it ain't broke don't fix it" is a good one.?
? Having said?that - if you are doing -new- wiring (even of a small
section of an otherwise untwisted and existing layout) then twisting
the bus is the recommended practice -?and there is no reason not
to do so.? There have not been any?problems caused by twisted bus
wires.
? The RPs for bus wire and feeder wire sizes are also "best practices"
and should be followed for all new/replaced wiring.? As are the
recommendations for "separating wiring used for different purposes
from each other (as much as is possible/easy).? One of the most
common sources of wiring interference problems is the "neat?
freak" who just has to take a bunch of different wires and tie wrap
them all together in a cosmetically nice bundle (by different wires
I'm talking about wires for different purposes - such as bundling the
track power with the signaling bus).
? Although there are many, many layouts that have reported "no
problems" with untwisted bus wires - and I am not saying those
reports are wrong ... IF you have ever had to personally deal
with a layout that is having trouble with untwisted bus wires (and
DCC) then you will be in the "twist camp" - and will recommend
that all new bus wiring be twisted.? The amount of effort to twist
(before the wire is run/strung) is far less than "fixing it afterward".
? Again - there is no reason to rework/rewire a working layout.
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?- Jim
|
As I rebuild my layout in a new-to-us home in a different state, I'm getting ready to divide it into four power districts, with four EasyDCC double zone boosters. Auto Reversing outputs from two of the boosters will handle reversing loops at each end, while the remaining zones will handle the? rest of the layout.
Originally wired for about 64 blocks with DC power, I'm reducing that to 32 blocks for DCC only operation, keeping just enough blocks, in my opinion, for a simple signal system and fault isolation.
The whole layout was run as one power district from one home brew 4 Amp booster for nearly 20 years. I had no problems with it, running up to four single loco powered trains at a time, which was all the layout really could handle, although a planned logging branch would have added one more, and someone could have hosteled locos in the roundhouse and turntable area. The only annoyance was all the trains slowing or stopping if something shorted on the track, usually from running into a power routing turnout set for the other route.
Don Weigt Connecticut
|
My small N Scale Layout has four (4) Power Runs from an PM42. Each Leg is a Black/Red dual wire run. Off these I attached to Power Feeders to the tracks. I have had no power problems using this arrangement. I broke the layout into four (4) Zones. The two (2) hidden tracks are on Zone 1 and 2. The front tracks are on Zone 3 and the interstage and industrial tracks are on Zone 4. That way if i am making up a train and short one of the hidden tracks, it doesn't affect the other Zones.
JoAnn Donaldson
On Thursday, August 5, 2021, 4:00:11 PM CDT, Don Weigt <dweigt47@...> wrote:
All that about twisting bus wires is probably true. And yet, my medium sized layout is wired with untwisted 18 gauge speaker wire, each each rail of each block separately fed from a central rack with track power relays and occupancy detectors. I have not had a bit of trouble with this "star" configuration. My longest block feeder is about 25 feet (8m).
My transmission theory is only dimly remembered, but the main reason I recall for twisting is to match the coupling of the two signals to surrounding? wires. Parallel wires such as my speaker cable has unequal distances from the two wires to other wiring. Even with identical (mirrored) currents and voltages in the two, unequal coupling will result in unwanted signals in any other wiring not at right angles to the pair.
Don Weigt Connecticut
|
All that about twisting bus wires is probably true. And yet, my medium sized layout is wired with untwisted 18 gauge speaker wire, each each rail of each block separately fed from a central rack with track power relays and occupancy detectors. I have not had a bit of trouble with this "star" configuration. My longest block feeder is about 25 feet (8m).
My transmission theory is only dimly remembered, but the main reason I recall for twisting is to match the coupling of the two signals to surrounding? wires. Parallel wires such as my speaker cable has unequal distances from the two wires to other wiring. Even with identical (mirrored) currents and voltages in the two, unequal coupling will result in unwanted signals in any other wiring not at right angles to the pair.
Don Weigt Connecticut
|
Re: Scotchlok bus punctures
Agree with puckdropper and Kurt.? In any situation where I think there's a chance one or more buss wires may drift (due to yanking, pulling, whatever), I simply staple the bus wires to adjacent structure (joists, underside of plywood, or whatever) using an old T-25M stapler and 3/8" cable staples.
Blair
|
Re: Scotchlok bus punctures
I do the same as Puckdropper and space connections by an inch or more to keep them from touching
Kurt
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On Aug 4, 2021, at 4:41 PM, Puckdropper via groups.io <puckdropper@...> wrote:
No.
I strip the buss and solder my feeders. Afterwards, I almost never cover the joint, it just doesn't need it. As long as the wires are secure enough they can't touch anything else it's fine.
Puckdropper
|
Re: Scotchlok bus punctures
No.
I strip the buss and solder my feeders. Afterwards, I almost never cover the joint, it just doesn't need it. As long as the wires are secure enough they can't touch anything else it's fine.
Puckdropper
|
The twist is the key.
Taping two wires without twisting is worse than just two random wires.
Thomas
DeSoto, TX
|
Actually, I haven't had any problems ... no runaway locos, no messed up
DCC signals. I was simply wondering whether taping wires together might
serve as a substitute for twisting. I have far too many existing
feeders to make it worthwhile to change out the existing bus for
twisted wire.
In any event thank you all for your responses.
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On Wed, 2021-08-04 at 18:43 +0000, JoAnn Donaldson via groups.io wrote: You can make your own twisted cable. Take 50ft of Black and Red wire.
Make a knot and secure on end in an vise. Make a knot in the other
end. place knot in Hand drill. run drill until desired twist. Then
pull on the twisted pair. Pull hard. It make stretch a tag but that
is OK. Reason for this is if you let the twisted pair go, the wire
will bundle up into a mess.
JoAnn
AB8YZ
?On Wednesday, August 4, 2021, 10:28:01 AM CDT, Jim Betz
<jimbetz@...> wrote:
Bill,
? Your bus wires should -either- be twisted or well separated.? The
worst thing you can do is to tape them together without twisting
them.
? What happens is that the wires will create an RF signal that
interferes
with the DCC signal (causes noise).? Interference usually shows up as
"I don't have my train - wait, now I have it back (after it has moved
a
few feet) - now I don't have it again."? "Don't have" is when the
train
does not respond to changes in the throttle - such as you blow the
horn or change speed and the train doesn't respond or has a long
delay.
? There can be other things that will interfere with the connection
between the cab(s) and the train(s).? What DCC system?? How
old is it?? Have you always had this problem or is it new?? Does
plugging in the cab fix it?? Always or only usually or only in some
parts of the layout?
? If you are not having trouble - just leave well enough alone.? If
you
are having trouble you might consider attempting to separate them
as far as they can be made and see if that helps.
? If separating the bus wires doesn't work the regrettable fix is to
get them twisted.? Doing that -can- be a big job or it can be a
fairly easy job.? Have you heard of/seen the Wago 221 connectors?
? As I said before - there are other symptoms/causes.? Provide the
answers to the questions above and we can sort out what you?
should do next (if you are having trouble).? The most important
thing you can do for us now is to tell us "why you think you want
to change anything?" -and- provide a fairly accurate description of
the problems you are having (where they occur, what fixes them,
etc.).
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
? ? ? ? ? ? - Jim
|
You can make your own twisted cable. Take 50ft of Black and Red wire. Make a knot and secure on end in an vise. Make a knot in the other end. place knot in Hand drill. run drill until desired twist. Then pull on the twisted pair. Pull hard. It make stretch a tag but that is OK. Reason for this is if you let the twisted pair go, the wire will bundle up into a mess.
JoAnn AB8YZ
On Wednesday, August 4, 2021, 10:28:01 AM CDT, Jim Betz <jimbetz@...> wrote:
Bill,
? Your bus wires should -either- be twisted or well separated.? The
worst thing you can do is to tape them together without twisting them.
? What happens is that the wires will create an RF signal that interferes
with the DCC signal (causes noise).? Interference usually shows up as
"I don't have my train - wait, now I have it back (after it has moved a
few feet) - now I don't have it again."? "Don't have" is when the train
does not respond to changes in the throttle - such as you blow the
horn or change speed and the train doesn't respond or has a long
delay.
? There can be other things that will interfere with the connection
between the cab(s) and the train(s).? What DCC system?? How
old is it?? Have you always had this problem or is it new?? Does
plugging in the cab fix it?? Always or only usually or only in some
parts of the layout?
? If you are not having trouble - just leave well enough alone.? If you
are having trouble you might consider attempting to separate them
as far as they can be made and see if that helps.
? If separating the bus wires doesn't work the regrettable fix is to
get them twisted.? Doing that -can- be a big job or it can be a
fairly easy job.? Have you heard of/seen the Wago 221 connectors?
? As I said before - there are other symptoms/causes.? Provide the
answers to the questions above and we can sort out what you?
should do next (if you are having trouble).? The most important
thing you can do for us now is to tell us "why you think you want
to change anything?" -and- provide a fairly accurate description of
the problems you are having (where they occur, what fixes them,
etc.).
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? - Jim
|
Bill,
? Your bus wires should -either- be twisted or well separated.? The
worst thing you can do is to tape them together without twisting them.
? What happens is that the wires will create an RF signal that interferes
with the DCC signal (causes noise).? Interference usually shows up as
"I don't have my train - wait, now I have it back (after it has moved a
few feet) - now I don't have it again."? "Don't have" is when the train
does not respond to changes in the throttle - such as you blow the
horn or change speed and the train doesn't respond or has a long
delay.
? There can be other things that will interfere with the connection
between the cab(s) and the train(s).? What DCC system?? How
old is it?? Have you always had this problem or is it new?? Does
plugging in the cab fix it?? Always or only usually or only in some
parts of the layout?
? If you are not having trouble - just leave well enough alone.? If you
are having trouble you might consider attempting to separate them
as far as they can be made and see if that helps.
? If separating the bus wires doesn't work the regrettable fix is to
get them twisted.? Doing that -can- be a big job or it can be a
fairly easy job.? Have you heard of/seen the Wago 221 connectors?
? As I said before - there are other symptoms/causes.? Provide the
answers to the questions above and we can sort out what you?
should do next (if you are having trouble).? The most important
thing you can do for us now is to tell us "why you think you want
to change anything?" -and- provide a fairly accurate description of
the problems you are having (where they occur, what fixes them,
etc.).
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? - Jim
|
Re: Scotchlok bus punctures
But if you look at the nature of the opening, the exposed
conductor is at the bottom of a canyon.? DCC voltages will not
leap that canyon to conduct to another potential; you'd need to
tape both conductors together, with the holes in both conductors
directly adjacent, then fill the interior of the space with salt
water to effect any significant current.
I wouldn't worry too much about puncture holes like that, unless
your environment is wet, or you're running 115 VAC through the
conductor; that's a whole different world.
Blair
On 2021-08-03 11:50, Steve Hubbard via
groups.io wrote:
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Not as long as they are openings are unable
to touch another conductor.? I would put some liquid tape on
them
?
Sent from for Windows 10
?
?
Recently, I had to remove several track
feeders that were connected to
my layout's bus with scotchlok connectors.
Removing the scotchlok
connectors, however, inevitably results in
open punctures of the bus's
plastic coating.? Will have that have any
consequences for DCC?
?
Bill Wilken
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
|
Ken Harstine
Jim Betz