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A throat controlled relay is ?a DPDT relay used to set the polarity of the reversing loop based on the position of a turnout or “throat “ to following tracks. The fast acting ?relay takes the place of a sometimes finicky (and expensive) AR controller.?

Ryan,
? It is not your switch (brand) nor your system (NCE) - all DCC layouts
(pretty much) operate the same basic way.? The part you are missing
is the "turnout status feedback" to JMRI/whoever cares.
? If you throw turnouts using the fascia - there are ways to get the
current status of the turnout ... but they aren't as simple as just
using DCC.
? The best of those methods - in my opinion - is to use LCC to
"control the layout" and DCC to control the trains.? If you do that
most guys would not use a stationary decoder to control the
turnout ... simply because decoders are DCC and DCC is a
"send and pray" system (you don't actually know that the
turnout has gotten the command and acted on it - you just
know that the command has been sent.
? Another method for doing this that some guys are using is
to use Arduinos.??

? ===> It is not important, and some would say not even desirable,
? ? ? ? ? ?to have your layout control use DCC.

? Implementing any kind of computer control of your layout is
not easy and can (usually? often?) involves a whole new layer of
"technology".??
? The choice to use DCC, LCC, Arduinos, ... whatever ... to control
your layout is often driven by the choice to implement some sort of
signaling system.

? I will tell you what my choice is/was.? My layout will be TT&TO which
means that it will not have signals.? It is based upon an actual?
prototype RR - in the late 40's/early 50's - and there weren't any
signals in use in that era.? BUT - I have considerable hidden track
in my staging.? So I have chosen to use LCC for staging and hand
thrown turnouts for the visible layout - with a few tortoise driven
turnouts where the turnout is hard to reach.? My layout room is
30 x 15 with a 10 x 10 bump out on one end.? There is one visible
layer and staging is under 2/3rds of the entire visible layout.? The
layout is "Ops oriented" and will have a crew of 6 or 7.
? Some of what I'm doing is based upon my preference to not use
DCC controlled turnouts.? I - this is me - do not like using DCC to
throw turnouts.? My other preference is that I don't want to use a
general purpose computer (JMRI, RR & Co., whatever) in order to
control the layout ... so to do my staging I had to choose between
"manual" and either LCC or arduino controls.

? Your methods may vary - model railroading is a series of choices
(some call them "compromises") and the above reflects what I
decided.
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?- Jim

Greg/Blair,

If you look at Allan's page, the basic "throat controlled relay" is inside the Tortoise when you are using 2-7 contacts. ?As you set the route through the throat (using contacts 1 and 8), the other contacts change accordingly, allowing the polarity to be swapped (and some people will call this "extended power routing", by the way). ?Allan does show a color version of the tortoise contacts below #4 of the "Reversing a Balloon Track with a Tortoise".

If you don't use the Tortoise contacts, he shows you can use an external separate relay in the first diagram under #1. ?The relay is above the block labelled "Tortoise".

The DPDT switch on the left side of that same diagram is used to control both the route through the turnout and the loop polarity.

So, the "throat controlled relay" is just the relay part, not the DPDT switch or the combination of the DPDT switch and the relay.

Hope this helps!
Jim






The action of pubining the selection of the turnout setting (contacts 1 and 8) and an additional relay outside of the tortoise onto a DPDT switch used to control both the Tortoise and the track polarity.

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Greg

As I see it, that's a DPDT toggle switch, or a slider, the output from it is used to both control the Tortoise and the track polarity.? "SV #1" is probably "SW #1", i.e. switch number 1.

Although, it could just as easily be a DPDT relay controlled by an automation system.
Blair

John thank you for the input.? I have been using JMRI also and that has been an issue for me too. If a switch has been thrown from fascia since the last JMRI switch command I don't have an accurate panel view of the route. I feel like I need to choose one method exclusively for switch control, only fascia, only DCC cab, or only JMRI to reduce my chances of putting a train where I didn't intend for it to go. Maybe using the other indication options to a central local control panel would be way to go also.

Open to other options, switch types, or general suggestions.

Thanks everyone,
Ryan?

Hi Tim,

A throat controlled relay is one that is activated by a turnout that is at the throat of a balloon track.? I used them to reverse the polarity of the balloon track depending on which way the turnout is thrown.? For examples, go to my website at:??

Allan Gartner
Wiring for DCC

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What is a "throat controlled relay"?
Who makes them?

Thanks,
Tim

Thanks for the quick response Don!? I moved the gaps closer to the turnouts without any problems and everything seems to be working great.? I also tried moving one set outside the turnout, but immediately had a shorting problem; however, the end of the reversing track flows directly into a small switching yard, and then into a balloon loop, so it didn't surprise me.?

Anyhow, now I can pull a normal size narrow gauge train around the layout and through the wye without any issues...

Thanks for the help!? Hopefully it will help another member as well.

Aaron Splawn (Roseville, Ca.)

Aaron, one other thought. You might be able to gain some improvement by making sure your isolating gaps are filled so that steel wheels do not fall into the gap and touch both sides of the gaps at each end of the AR section at the same time. If the frog connection of your turnouts include a lengthy section of frog “exit” cut another gap and make a short section of fixed rail polarity to separate the frog juicer power from that of the AR section. Only a couple of inches of fixed polarity is required.


DonV

Aaron, you have bumped into the problem of the AR section shorter than the train, and next...the issue of two AR controllers adjacent at the same isolation gap. (Yes a frog juicer is essentially an AR controller) Take another look at your track diagram to find a way to include a longer stretch of track to be the AR section, possibly including one of the turnouts. Then use a different method of selectively powering that frog using contacts from the turnout motor or a relay instead of a frog juicer.

DonV

William,?

I just dealt with something similar installing an AR on my Sn3 layout.? First I tried a Tam Valley Dual Frog Juicer, and then I bought the PSX-AR.? Both of them malfunctioned by causing a complete short when crossing into the isolated reversing area.? After losing a bunch of sleep and pulling out all my hair, I discovered one of the wye frogs was wired incorrectly.? Once I corrected this it worked perfectly with a single loco.? So good that I tried the Frog Juicer again and it also worked perfectly with a single loco.? However, once I started running trains (anything more than 4 cars) it suddenly started doing exactly what you're describing as the train spanned the isolated reversing portion of the wye.? I've discovered the isolated reversing gaps are too close together and when any additional cars are outside the isolated area it shorts momentarily until the last cars passes the gap on the other side.? All of my cars have metal wheels and I only run small trains, however, I'd like to run a little bit more than a 4 car train.? This led to the question I posted to the group last night about how close the isolation gaps can be moved towards the turnouts without causing a different problem when a loco or cars are running over the reversing gaps and turnout frogs at the same time.?

Hopefully this helps narrow down your problem.? I know exactly how frustrated you feel...!

Aaron Splawn (Roseville, Ca. )

Didn't think about including this. The trucks are like the Athearn Blue Box trucks that has the frame pin and the tab that sticks up by the drive shaft. So it don't have the wheel wipers. That's the reason I soldered the wires to the trucks. It also has the same motor as the Blue Box and it is isolated the same way as Athearn. The frame may be the very same, but I haven't compared it with the Blue Box, but I will.
Thanks Andrew.
JT

Greetings all!??

How close can reversing gaps be to the turnout frogs without causing a malfunction?? I'm?building a small Sn3 layout and just added a wye.? I used a Tam Valley Dual Frog Juicer as an auto reverser and it seems to be working great; however, I've now discovered my gaps in the reversing track section are too close together to accommodate anymore than a three car train.? I can move the gaps further apart, but I'm afraid they will be too close to the turnouts and will cause confusion when the loco rolls over the frog, and then the isolation gap shortly after.? The turnouts are Fast Track and the frogs are controlled by a Tam Valley Hex Juicer.? ?Any answers and ideas would be greatly appreciated...

Thanks, Aaron Splawn (Roseville, Ca.)? ?

John, to diagnose wheel pick up problems, take a piece of tissue paper, make it wide enough to isolate one whole truck, place it across the tracks and run your local over it. See if you can determine which of the trucks or axles may be causing a problem.

Paul O

Tricky! I think I'd just replace all the axle gears to be sure they're OK. I've seen them slide sideways after the gear cracked. You may be able to confirm this with the NMRA gauge, gauge too narrow is probably the one causing the problem.

These GP30s disassemble pretty nicely, so if I didn't see anything else, I'd take it apart and clean and resolder everything.

Are you seeing a stall or a short?

Puckdropper

A couple of things our club has found over the years, now standard practice for all club members to do to their Loks.
1. set CV11 = 0. This is the timeout timer, depending on your system, how many addresses are in the refresh list, etc. Just set to 0.
2. turn off DC. Bit flag in CV29, lets your Lok run on DC layout power. Some systems will trick your Lok into thinking power is DC, then revert to DCC, then dc. Random pauses. Only enable this before going to a DC layout, Otherwise, turn off.
This eliminates most decoder issues.

Check that your solder joints are not cold joints. Always use flux when soldering, even if the solder says it has flux. (NOT ACID FLUX!!!)