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Allan,

The thing that got me was:

When I hooked up the decoder and MP15 motor to the program track and
also the Atlas motor, pressed DISP to read the default address, both
motors turned but only the Atlas motor gave a readback for the address.
So, I programmed the decoder with the Atlas motor. No problem.

The advice to put a resistor across the motor won't work in the loco
because there is no room even to put it in temporarily. The motor
leads are buried in the frame and inaccessable so that the wiring has
to be done to the motor and then the motor put in the frame.

At any rate, since both motors turned, that's what lead me to measure
resistance on the motors with the MP15 motor measurimg a lot less, so
my thought that it didn't have enough resistance to be read and give
readback.

Sure would like to know how many ohms the command station needs to
read to give readback but it's not important since another way to
program the decoder is available.

Mike

They didn't say a whole lot, did they?

Their phrase "the decoder must see a load" is partially correct.
Since the decoder is connected to the motor, you can say that the
decoder sees the motor. But the decoder doesn't do anything with
this. It merely causes a load to be seen by your command station.
Your command station is what registers the presence of the motor.

I do agree that if the decoder works with another motor, the decoder
is working correctly.

Their advice about connecting a resistor across the motor is also
valid. It would have been nice if they suggested a value. I'd
start with 100 ohms and work down to say 20 ohms if need be. Since
you are talking N-scale, you probably don't have room inside the
locomotive to leave the resistor. Use AT LEAST 1/2W resistor.
Don't leave it attached, it will smoke.

There was something else I intended to say earlier, but forgot.
There are only 2 sets of CVs you need to program in the program
mode. 1. The address CVs (either CV 01 for short addresses or CV 17
& 18 for long addresses) and 2. the configuration CV 29. Everything
else you can program on the main in Ops mode, which does not try to
read back CVs. You won't be able to read CVs back in Ops mode, but
you also won't get noPG or noID in this mode.

Allan

--- In WiringForDCC@..., "wirefordcc"
<wire4dcc_admin@c...> wrote:

Mike,

You asked some very good questions. I'm curious as to what

Digitrax

told you. They should have answered your questions.

This was Digitrax's answer:

To program, the decoder must see a load on the motor outputs.
We are not aware of the programming problem with this particular
motor with the DZ143.
That the decoder programs with another type motor proves that the
decoder is OK.
You might add an additional resistor across the motor leads to
increase the load and lave it in place for future programming
changes or remove after programming.

Hope this helps

Your problem is reading back the CVs that you are programming in
your N-scale locomotives.

You were wondering if there was something that could be changed so
that a decoder could see a motor and read back the CV. Actually,
the process doesn't exactly work that way.

The decoder doesn't see the motor. When a decoder receives a
programming signal or a request to read a CV, ALL the decoder does
is briefly apply power to the motor to acknowledge that it has
received a request from the command station. The motor acts as a
load and draws current. That's all the decoder does. So there is
nothing to change in your decoder.

Your programming station, such as a Chief, sees the surge in

current

drawn and reads that as an acknowledgement by the decoder. If the
Chief is programming, it displays 'Good.'

When trying to read back a CV, the Chief sequentally sends the
decoder every possible value for a given CV. When the Chief

sends,

and the decoder receives, a value equal to that of a particular

CV,

the decoder again briefly puts power to the motor to acknowledge
this particular value. In this way the command station figures

out

what value is in the CV. Note that the decoder has no way to send
the value of the CV. The command station has to "guess" it.

It is not essential that an acknowledgement pulse be received by

the

command station for a CV to be programmed. I frequently program
decoders before I put them in locomotives without a motor

attached.

I get noPG indicating that the command station did not receive the
acknowledgment pulse. But the CV is programmed nonetheless.

So how come you can't program a long address? A long address is
programmed in two CV's - 17 & 18. The command station is probably
programming one of them and then looking for the acknowledgement
pulse. It never programs the second CV because the command

station

didn't receive the acknowledgement. You can get around this by
programming CV 17 and 18 individually. You will need to figure

out

what values need to go into them manually. With the original
Digitrax throttles, this is what you did, so they had how to

figure

these values in their manuals. I don't know if they still do.
Don't forget, when programming a long address, you will also need

to

program CV 29 for long addresses. The new Digitrax DT400, and I
believe DT300, throttles make programming CV 29 easy for you. Or
again, you can do them manually.

The above is how to program a CV without getting an
acknowledgement. So what can you do to get the acknowledgement?
Usually the motor will do the track. I admit I don't have
experience on N and Z scale locomotives. I suggest that you

program

the decoder prior to placing it in the locomotive if you can. Use

a

20 ohm, 2 watt resistor for the motor. Use the resistor only for
programming. If you try to "run" the decoder using the resistor

as

a motor, you may smoke the resistor. (You don't actually need to
use a 2 W resistor for programming. The 2 W is only in case you
apply power and forget you have the resistor as a motor. It will
start to smoke, but you probably won't destroy it before you can
power down.)

I suppose it would be difficult to test some drop in decoders in N

&

Z or connect a resistor to them temporarily.

The final choice is to change the sensitivity of the command

station

to the acknowledgement pulse. I don't know exactly how to do

this,

but I suspect it is just a resistor change. If you contact
Digitrax, they may be able to tell you how to do it or have you

send

back your command station so that they may make the change for you.

I hope this gives you some insight into the reading CVs and
programming decoders

Thanks for the info. I knew something had to get feedback from the
motor load in order to enable readback.
I'll try putting a 4 digit address in the 1st loco which is all
together now.
The other loco is still waiting for the decoder to be installed and
I have programmed the decoder with using a resistor as you suggested.

Mike,

You asked some very good questions. I'm curious as to what Digitrax
told you. They should have answered your questions.

Your problem is reading back the CVs that you are programming in
your N-scale locomotives.

You were wondering if there was something that could be changed so
that a decoder could see a motor and read back the CV. Actually,
the process doesn't exactly work that way.

The decoder doesn't see the motor. When a decoder receives a
programming signal or a request to read a CV, ALL the decoder does
is briefly apply power to the motor to acknowledge that it has
received a request from the command station. The motor acts as a
load and draws current. That's all the decoder does. So there is
nothing to change in your decoder.

Your programming station, such as a Chief, sees the surge in current
drawn and reads that as an acknowledgement by the decoder. If the
Chief is programming, it displays 'Good.'

When trying to read back a CV, the Chief sequentally sends the
decoder every possible value for a given CV. When the Chief sends,
and the decoder receives, a value equal to that of a particular CV,
the decoder again briefly puts power to the motor to acknowledge
this particular value. In this way the command station figures out
what value is in the CV. Note that the decoder has no way to send
the value of the CV. The command station has to "guess" it.

It is not essential that an acknowledgement pulse be received by the
command station for a CV to be programmed. I frequently program
decoders before I put them in locomotives without a motor attached.
I get noPG indicating that the command station did not receive the
acknowledgment pulse. But the CV is programmed nonetheless.

So how come you can't program a long address? A long address is
programmed in two CV's - 17 & 18. The command station is probably
programming one of them and then looking for the acknowledgement
pulse. It never programs the second CV because the command station
didn't receive the acknowledgement. You can get around this by
programming CV 17 and 18 individually. You will need to figure out
what values need to go into them manually. With the original
Digitrax throttles, this is what you did, so they had how to figure
these values in their manuals. I don't know if they still do.
Don't forget, when programming a long address, you will also need to
program CV 29 for long addresses. The new Digitrax DT400, and I
believe DT300, throttles make programming CV 29 easy for you. Or
again, you can do them manually.

The above is how to program a CV without getting an
acknowledgement. So what can you do to get the acknowledgement?
Usually the motor will do the track. I admit I don't have
experience on N and Z scale locomotives. I suggest that you program
the decoder prior to placing it in the locomotive if you can. Use a
20 ohm, 2 watt resistor for the motor. Use the resistor only for
programming. If you try to "run" the decoder using the resistor as
a motor, you may smoke the resistor. (You don't actually need to
use a 2 W resistor for programming. The 2 W is only in case you
apply power and forget you have the resistor as a motor. It will
start to smoke, but you probably won't destroy it before you can
power down.)

I suppose it would be difficult to test some drop in decoders in N &
Z or connect a resistor to them temporarily.

The final choice is to change the sensitivity of the command station
to the acknowledgement pulse. I don't know exactly how to do this,
but I suspect it is just a resistor change. If you contact
Digitrax, they may be able to tell you how to do it or have you send
back your command station so that they may make the change for you.

I hope this gives you some insight into the reading CVs and
programming decoders

I put a DZ143 into the 1st MP15 I got and get 'NO PG' on every CV I
try to read.
I have a Chief, DT400, and seperate program track.
The loco runs on default address and the lights function normally.
I can program a different 2 digit address into it - again no read
back - and it performs OK.
Cannot program a 4 digit address tho.

Took the 2nd loco motor and hooked it up to decoder and program
track with the same results on another DZ143, Lenz 0511 and TCS M1.
Took an Atlas motor and hooked it up and can read all CV's.
This MP15 motor has no visible brushes, just wires going into the
motor similar to the 12v motors on some toy cars.

Read ohms on the Atlas motor = 159
Read ohms on the MP15 motor = 69

Apparently the decoder can't 'see' a motor, thus no feedback on CV's.

My question: If the decoder is set to see a certain amount of
resistance (which appears to be the case from my test) and this
value is too low, can it be changed in the decoder?
If not, what is the solution to feed back?
I've run the scenario by Digitrax also.

Only thing I could figure, is to hook up an Atlas (or Kato) motor to
decoder and to program track and program the decoder with the 4
digit address I want and then install it in the MP15 which I'll try
next.

Any electronical wizard thoughts?

Mike

With my P2K GP7 units, this is indicative not of DCC problems, but of split
gears. Check some of the other lists (RPM-forum, Proto2000, etc.) for
running commentaries. It seems the consensus is that the axle gears need to
be replaced with an Athearn equivalent. The part number is listed in some
of those threads. If you have problems finding same, report back to me and
I'll search for those emails tonight.

Second possibility - my opinion to date is that DCC is more dirt-on-wheels
sensitive than DC was, so you may need to spend a few minutes cleaning
wheels and track.

Blair Smith.

I have a 4 by 8 layout which I recently converted to DCC. I am using a
Digitrax Zephyr System. It initially ran well at first, but then I
started getting sporadic response in my engines. I especially get this
sporadic response around 18" radius turns and in my turnouts.

My layout consists of an outside oval mainline interconnected to an
inside oval at several locations by turnouts.

I am running two Proto 2000 engines. GP7 equipped with a Soundtraxx
decoder. Also a Alco S-1 with a Digitrax decoder.

What is uncanny about all this is my engines ran well then just
started to barely respond to DCC.

My analog engine runs better than my decoder engines.

Can anyone shed light on this problem?

Peter,

I am running Digitrax wireless. I don't have any experience with
the IR. However, I can say that in wireless everything works as it
should. I can't think of any reasons why IR should be any
different. Does everything work properly when you are plugged into
Loconet directly?

I think you asked another Digitrax questions a few days ago
regarding running on analog address 00. Long term operation on
address 00 can damage some motors. Also, if the locomotive is
running on track where the booster is set to autoreverse, the
locomotive may leap into reverse derailing your train. So use of
address 00 is probably best used for testing out new locomotives but
not day to day operation.

Allan


--- In WiringForDCC@..., "mhn_416" <mhn_416@y...> wrote:

i have set up an infrared system on my lay out . my question to

you is

when in the tetherless mode with analog train certain functions do

not

work such as reverse ,emergancy stop. have i done something wrong

in my

set up .dt 400 throttle, ir operation with 2 ur90's

peter.

i have set up an infrared system on my lay out . my question to you is
when in the tetherless mode with analog train certain functions do not
work such as reverse ,emergancy stop. have i done something wrong in my
set up .dt 400 throttle, ir operation with 2 ur90's

peter.

Thanks dale i no longer feel alone.
This DT 300 pluged into the same up 5 seems to show idle or PS when ever it feels like.i don't know of battery life yet time will tell.

Jim

I have a similar configuration to yours ecxept all my throttles are
DT100R or DT100IR and one ancient DT100. I have noticed that when I
turn off power (the UP3/5s are powered) that the throttles show PS
or IDLE, not always the same display on each throttle. I
investigated a bit and couldn't come up with an explanation. So I
don't worry about it. It doesn't seem to affect battery life (I
leave the batteries installed all the time).

Dale.


--- In WiringForDCC@..., "Jim McMahon" <hotrains@n...>
wrote:

Tried the Digitrax group maybe someone here has an answer.
----- Original Message -----
From: "hotrains2001" <hotrains@n...>
To: <Digitrax@...>
Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2005 8:59 PM
Subject: [Digitrax] DT 300

i have a DCS 100 DB150 PM42 BdL162 Ur91.
My UP 3/5's are powered when i turn off the system with UP 3/5

still

powered My DT 400R &DT300R show PS my DT 300 no longer shows PS

it

used to it now shows IDLE.
Digitrax did not know what i should do other than turn it upside

down

& spank it.That hasn't worked.
Would appreciate any ideas.

Thank in advance.

Jim McMahon

Analog engines will run slower on DCC as the did with DC. It is in the
nature of the way how analog engines are handled: A part of the DCC
signal is stretched either in the positve or ngative part (depending on
the direction of travel) to create a positive or negative bias in the
signal. This bias is what drives the engine, but it can never reach the
full strength of a DC-signal.

Ulrich

Tried the Digitrax group maybe someone here has an answer.

i have a digitrax operating system power on ytacks read 7.5volts
x2=15volts.however when i try to run an anologe train on the address
00 the train runs very slowly i have tried dfferent anologe trains
with the same result. any suggestions?
peter

If you need to be stepped through it before I finish exams next week,
call Digitrax tech support.

Note: Normally, your slots should not get full. Be sure to dispatch
your locomotives before removing the battery from your throttle.
Dispatching clears the loco from the slot.

Allan

If you want a detailed answer, you are going to have to wait about a
week and half when I have more time. Here is what you need to do.

You need to clear the Chief's slots. If my memory serves me right,
check options 32 thru 36. One of them is labeled something like
clear roster, slots, or locos. If you are not using routes and
things, it won't hurt to clear them all.

To clear an option, flip the DCS100 to OPT. Using your DT100, hit
mode until a black dot appears under Switch. Then dial up the option
you want to change. Then press the c or t key. If you are not sure
whether to hit c or t, hit them both (one at a time).

Hopefully, this is enough info for you. Otherwise, you will need to
wait until I am done with final exams.

I got some answers earlier. I just don't quite get it yet. If anybody
can help me again, my DT100 is showing FF on the right hand side of the
throttle. This of course, makes it unable to key in a loco address. I
know the FF means the DCS100 is full. Can someone help me by telling me
HOW to do away with the FF and get it back to normal? What I really
need, is some detail steps on how to do this. I looked all over the
book and cannot find the answer. Who ever can help me through this
trauma; this will be most appreciated, please send me an e-mail at
lhannahan@.... Thanks in advance.

Steve,

You have 4 possible areas of failure:

1. The BD4 isn't wired up correctly to the track. I don't see the
BD4 manual on Digitrax's website so I can't help you much. I am
using BD1s which require that a particular terminal go to your
track. If the BD4 is like this, make sure you have it wired up
correctly. You may want to connect your BD4 temporarily directly to
your booster and a short section of track for test purposes.

2. The BD4 isn't wired up correctly to the DS54. You will just
have to consult the manuals for the BD4 and DS54.

3. Your DS54 isn't programmed correctly. I provide a table of CV
values for your DS54 which will enable block detection and send
Loconet messages.

4. Your method of displaying detection messages on Loconet isn't
set up correctly. I assume you are using a computer to detect to
your Loconet messages from the DS54. You should also see messages
from your throttles. Make sure it is picking them up.

My problem is that i have a BD4 occupancy detector, which i am
trying to use to trigger a DS54. All Blocks run through a
Powershield circuit breaker and are all on one booster.

the BD4 doesn't seem to be sensing and i'm not sure i'm connecting
it correctly. Any assitance would be apreciated.


--- In WiringForDCC@..., "wirefordcc"
<wire4dcc_admin@c...> wrote:

Steve,

I'm not quite sure I am following your question. Maybe I'm not
following you as to how you have your railroad wired. I think you

are

okay with what you have.

Here is the URL from my website that shows two rails with all the
associated wiring.

The heavy black lines are labeled Rail "A" and "B".

I double gap everything. I find it is easier on my sanity.

That's

just a personal choice. If you have double gapped everything, you
are fine.

Notice that my rail "B" has many gaps in it, but those gaps are
effectively bridged by the white wire. The white wire is labeled
COMMON BUS on the drawing. Notice however, that the white and

the

black for each booster are NOT connected together. NEVER connect

the

outputs of boosters together. DO NOT have a common between

boosters.

Hopefully, this information and the drawing answer your question.

Allan


--- In WiringForDCC@..., "steve" <snorring@a...> wrote:

I have a layout with blocked sections. I isolated both rails in

each

section. I am using DCC and will be installing a BD4 to operate
signals through an SRC24.

Do i need to open 1 rail and make it common through the entire

layout,

or can i leave both rails isolated? I have all my power comming
through a 4 block circuit breaker.

Thanks for your help.

Steve

Steve,

I'm not quite sure I am following your question. Maybe I'm not
following you as to how you have your railroad wired. I think you are
okay with what you have.

Here is the URL from my website that shows two rails with all the
associated wiring.

The heavy black lines are labeled Rail "A" and "B".

I double gap everything. I find it is easier on my sanity. That's
just a personal choice. If you have double gapped everything, you
are fine.

Notice that my rail "B" has many gaps in it, but those gaps are
effectively bridged by the white wire. The white wire is labeled
COMMON BUS on the drawing. Notice however, that the white and the
black for each booster are NOT connected together. NEVER connect the
outputs of boosters together. DO NOT have a common between boosters.

Hopefully, this information and the drawing answer your question.

Allan


--- In WiringForDCC@..., "steve" <snorring@a...> wrote:

I have a layout with blocked sections. I isolated both rails in

each

section. I am using DCC and will be installing a BD4 to operate
signals through an SRC24.

Do i need to open 1 rail and make it common through the entire

layout,

or can i leave both rails isolated? I have all my power comming
through a 4 block circuit breaker.

Thanks for your help.

Steve