Hi Wooter, ? Thanks for expanding on your original comments ¨C the expansion definitely provides a better set of ¡°Givens and Desires¡± that will help us (and you) derive a solution you are happy with. ? Your clarifications reduce the universe of possible solutions by several orders of magnitude! ? The revised scenario (correct me if I¡¯m misinterpreting your comments): ? - Two layouts, one outside, one inside, not physically connected, never operated at the same time,
- G-Scale:
- Requires higher track voltage than HO and smaller,
- Larger motors consume higher amperage,
- There is a desire to use a fair amount of the DCC system for both layouts,
- Up to five locos running at a time, and
- Current planning calls for more AIUs than can be placed on an SB5 (Six AIUs, addresses 3, 4, 5, 8, 9, 10).
? Based on the above, I¡¯d suggest the following: ? - A command station, NCE CS03, latest version with the USB interface for talking to the computer,
- A booster, PB-110A
- 10 Amps
- 15 ¨C 22 volt output (adjustable).
- Appropriate power supplies for the above meeting the requirements as set by NCE.
? I looked up the spec on the AIUs ¨C each of them can accept input from 1 to 14 BD-20¡¯s.? ?That brings up an alternative option for you to consider: ? - An SB5 ¨C provides the command station you need, if you don¡¯t have more than 6 AIU units (enough to monitor 84 BD-20s),
- A PB-110A to provide you with
- 10 Amps
- 15 ¨C 22 Volts output (adjustable).
- Appropriate Power supplies for the above as recommended by NCE.
? The 5 amp track output on the SB5 could be used to power any DCC components that need track power, while the 10 Amp booster powers the track. ? One _might_ be able to get away with a just a new 5 amp command station SB5 or other) _if_ you have extremely low power draw from your locomotives, _and_ you don¡¯t need more than 6 AIUs.? However, that doesn¡¯t leave you with a lot of overhead.? I¡¯d be inclined to go with the first option, but you¡¯ll have to make that decision based on your needs and that of the two layouts. ? If you do use a single system indoors and out, I¡¯d build some kind of box/cabinet for the system, and include heavier connectors to connect such a box to the layout of the day ¨C let them take the wear and tear away from the connectors on the NCE boxes. ? ? ? Hope this helps, feel free to follow up with any additional questions you might have. ? Best regards, ? Steve ? Steve Haas Snoqualmie, WA ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? s ?
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From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of whmvd via groups.io
Sent: Saturday, February 15, 2025 3:33 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [w4dccqa] DCC Boosters, not quite the standard way? Thanks for your response. I'll add my answers embedded within your text below, in bold, even if they repeat what's in the original post, just to have everything handy in one place. ? Wouter , correcting some of Alan¡¯s comments shares: ? ¡°All I currently have, and am testing with, is a Power Cab and USB interface. At about 15V, that is clearly not enough, nor has its cab bus enough addresses for the required AIUs. So that one's fine for inside - with limitations.¡± ? 15 Volts is actually just about the correct voltage, I suspect you are actually concerned with the amperage you will need to provide the appropriate power to your layout(s).
15V is not enough for G-Scale, thought it suffices for the initial experimentations I've been doing. ? Current Production of the Power Cab delivers 2 AMPS.? Using NCE¡¯s conservative numbers, that¡¯s enough for 4 HO locos or 8 N locos.? Older less efficient motors may draw more, more efficient motors may draw less, and there could be additional amperage draw on the Power Cab.
I'd not seen the 2A limit before, so that's interesting. Whether mine corresponds to "current production" is doubtful, as I got it, second hand, ten years ago. Then again, the world of NCE is not one of lightning-fast changes (which I actually appreciate). I did the upgrade to 1.65B, but obviously that does make the hardware up to date... ? Current Production of the Power Cab supports three additional cabs at addresses 3, 4, and 5.? Cab addresses 8, 9, and 10 are for AIUs or other cab accessories as needed.? In addition cab addresses 3, 4, and 5 may be used for addition AIUs or other devices _IF_ not needed for cabs. ¡°It seems you wrote from memory, causing quite a bit of confusion! The Power Cab is the one with the command station in. The Pro Cab is just a dumb throttle. The SB5 is for the Power Cab (S for Smart means it contains a command station, which when connected takes over from the one in the Power Cab). The DB is a Dumb Booster, which goes with the higher end NCE systems. There is no "Pro Cab System". It's a Power Pro sytem, which happens to be operated with a Pro Cab as a throttle unless you add other goodies.¡± ? Mostly correct.? The SB5 is a logical follow on to a Power Cab system, but all that is gained is the additional 3 amps and the freedom to unplug the Power Cab to move about and plug in somewhere else. The Power Cab and the PCP can be moved to the work bench to service as a program track as needed ¨C the SB5 itself has no programming capability. I would suggest folks consider their long term needs before deciding on their upgrade path ¨C some will never need more than an SB5 so no reason to buy more.? Others, who may ultimately need more cabs and/or cab accessory units than an SB5 supports should give consideration to jumping straight to a Power Pro system. ? The DB5 is a 5 amp booster that can be used just like any other NCE 5 amp booster, or any other NCE system other than the Power Cab.? ? The SB5 requires neither a Power Cab nor a Pro Cab to operate correctly.? Any NCE throttles can be used with either. ¡°But all that is rather moot, because none of it leads to what I really need: the SAME booster inside and outside (so that I have the exact same conditions for the locos, speed profiled inside but run outside). And it needs to be high voltage. Which is why I am looking for a (pretty certainly non-NCE) booster that just takes an existing track signal, sniffs out the DCC packets, and spits them out *at its own voltage* to the only track bus that reaches the rails. The normal connection for a booster would be a direct one to the command station NOT involving the track output, but a low-voltage low-current dedicated output. Which is not what I need.¡± ? This is a confusing statement of requirements: ? - All that boosters do is take the low voltage data signal from the System¡¯s command station and boost it by adding voltage to the signal sufficient enough to deliver the signal and necessary power to the track for the operation of the locos.? They have limited (if any) intelligence beyond amplifying that signal, and enough short detection to protect itself in the event of a short out on the layout.?
- The operating characteristics of a decoder/loco are controlled by the mechanics of the loco itself, the design of the decoder, the coding in the firmware, and CV setting.? Boosters have no impact on this other than a failing booster might not deliver sufficient voltage and amperage to the track.
After going through my search history, I found the page that caused me to think the way I did, and it's this post on RMweb:
The type 2 is what I started looking for - and did not find. ? It¡¯s hard to tell if you have one layout or two (or a layout and a test track), their proximity to each other, etc.
There's two. Both G-scale. One is very small (well, G-Scale still means it fills an entire room...) and the other is in the garden. Or rather: will be as it does not exist yet. This is the planning stage, really. They are not close enough to one another to be linked in any way (not interested in wireless links; one will never operate at the same time as the other, controlling hardware can be moved around to avoid buying double). The one inside is a single-track loop with three passing places. This is where I'm learning about and testing automation, one train at a time. ? You need to: ? - Start with the DCC system of your choice,
I didn't. I did not know if DCC was actually for me (I know now that it very much is) so I started with the most low-cost option, which I knew would not be a long-term choice for lack of oomph. ? - Make a selection based on the number of cabs and/or cab devices you will place on the cab bus (Step up to the next sized system until you meet this goal,
Very few cabs, but certainly more AIUs than Power Cab or SB5 can handle. ? - Determine the number of AMPs (not volts) required to carry the load your locomotives (primarily) plus the incremental but small increases in load to support sound, lights, and other DCC accessories _powered_ from the DCC supply:
- Less than two amp load, probably any system,
- Less than five amp load, an SB5 or a Power Pro 5 (in any packaging/labeling),
- More than five amps, start adding boosters to your system to provide the required amperage.
10A, to comfortably allow 5 G-Scale locos to run with a bit left over for accessories. ? Share with us in greater detail: Some repetition here. ? - The physical definition of your layout(s),
A) inside: loop with three passing places; 6 switches, fully BD20-detected (15 blocks, each switch in its own block), virtual (jmri basic) signalling. All switches with positional feedback to AIU inputs. Currently Power Cab and NCE-USB, two AIUs, preferred throttle is EngineDriver via JMRI. All wiring to the standard of electrics for in the house (serious overkill in many areas but better safe than sorry).
B) outside: so far in planning only; two back-and-forth lines (one tram, one rack railway, both with passing loop and two terminus tracks at all ends) and single track horseshoe as main line, three stations (including termini) three tracks each. Trains (and therefore station tracks) quite short, as I prefer seeing longer distances between stations rather than longer stations. Design will follow lessons learned on inside track in all respects. - Their locations relevant to each other,
Not linked, not operated simultaneously. Rolling stock shared, command station possibly shared, and (what prompted my question in the first place!) 10A booster hopefully shared so that speed profiles remain identical and cost is limited. Happy to lug the booster around between layouts. - The scale(s),
G throughout - The number of locomotives to be run at a time,
Inside: just one, eventually maybe two, but that's not really a requirement. No consists (I model a small narrow-gauge operation). All locos have servo uncouplers. All signalling to remain virtual. No operating sessions; when it runs, the basis should be time-tabled automated passenger trains (my own software on top of JMRI, whose automation I do not like one bit, but everything making automation possible is unbelievably sturdy and well thought out) with the occasional manually operated train added when desired. - The number of throttles required at the same time.
Cab bus throttles: 0. Phone throttles no more than 3 (via JMRI/EngineDriver).
? You will need one, or perhaps two command stations, depending on several factors (see questions above). Each command station may require one or more additional boosters ( a power pro and an SB 5 each have their own initial boosters). ? You can treat the two layouts as one, thus only requiring a single command station of the appropriate capacity and adding additional boosters as needed for additional power, or you can have one command station with additional boosters as needed.? Its more proximity and convenience than anything else.
The Power Cab will do me for inside. With the one important exception in? that the voltage doesn't cut it, making it impossible to do speed profiling inside that will hold true on the big, outside system. For outside, I am still entirely free to choose whichever way I want to go, as I have not bought anything yet. So you see: current investment level is still very, very low! Having learned what I've learned within the NCE universe, I would be very happy to stay there. This is how I came to see my ideal path forward: adding a command station for outside with enough AIU capacity - certainly more than a Power Cab or SB5 - so a 5A Power Pro. And then the clincher: by NOT using the track outputs to provide the actual track power either inside or outside, but rather using those track outputs as sources for one 10A booster of the type 2 in the link I mentioned:
I think I'd be set up to perfection. And that's why I'm looking for such a booster. Should it actually exist... Should it not, I see my best bet as a 10A Power Pro that I'd move around between inside and outside, forgetting about the Power Cab for layout control entirely, but keeping it as a dedicated programming tool. I could live with that, and it's probably the more realistic option. ? Get back to us with the additional information and we¡¯ll be able to help you zero in on your actual requirements and you can make additional conditions after that. ? Best regards, Thanks again!
Steve ? Steve Haas Snoqualmie, WA ?
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