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WOC SOTA Summit Values

 

Is W0C in some sort of purgatory for past wrongs??
Can someone tell me why our mountains are worth less points?
?
Below is a few snapshots on the Colorado border.
?
Feel free to berate/scorn me as the noob I am.
?
 

Now you see why the Colorado SOTA ops are tougher than the average op....!!

;)

73,

Dave, N0DET



On Sat, Mar 8, 2025 at 9:31?PM Matt KF0RIG via <zimbelmanguitars=[email protected]> wrote:
Is W0C in some sort of purgatory for past wrongs??
Can someone tell me why our mountains are worth less points?
?
Below is a few snapshots on the Colorado border.
?
Feel free to berate/scorn me as the noob I am.
?
 

If I remember correctly, the short answer is the standard formula is highest N% of peaks in that association get 10 points, the lowest M% get 1 point, and they spread out the rest.? Since Colorado is it's own association, and we have a lot of high mountains compared to neighboring states, it creates a bit of a skew.

Complicating matters further, there was apparently some drama when they split the US into smaller associations, and people didn't want the mountains near them to go down in value.? Some associations managed to keep their points with the percentile bands reflecting the entire US, instead of just their association.? This was before my time, but I'm sure if you ask on the nasota list people would be happy to provide more information and/or re-litigate old arguments.


On Sat, Mar 8, 2025, 21:55 Dave N0DET via <navyprowler=[email protected]> wrote:
Now you see why the Colorado SOTA ops are tougher than the average op....!!

;)

73,

Dave, N0DET



On Sat, Mar 8, 2025 at 9:31?PM Matt KF0RIG via <zimbelmanguitars=[email protected]> wrote:
Is W0C in some sort of purgatory for past wrongs??
Can someone tell me why our mountains are worth less points?
?
Below is a few snapshots on the Colorado border.
?
Feel free to berate/scorn me as the noob I am.
?

Screenshot 2025-03-08 at 9.20.20?PM.png
Screenshot 2025-03-08 at 9.25.53?PM.png
Screenshot 2025-03-08 at 9.28.40?PM.png
Screenshot 2025-03-08 at 9.28.05?PM.png
Screenshot 2025-03-08 at 9.27.44?PM.png
Screenshot 2025-03-08 at 9.26.54?PM.png

 

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Neal is spot on.?

If you read the history of SOTA it originated in the UK, in a pub, on a napkin, based on islands on the air IIRC.?

In the beginning, US associations were mostly multi-state.?

You can still see the remnants in the naming. W5 used to be the association name. Now there are multiple subdivisions of W5.?

The activators in NM would scream and complain about there being say 99% of their summits being 1 pointers and 1% being 10 or 8 up around the enchanted circle (Taos, Angel Fire, Red River). But wait, there’s more. Texas was even worse because they ONLY had summits in West Texas and it’s HOURS from the majority of the population centers.?

The SOTA management team grew to include people in the US and the summit data got better and more accurate with some very flexible changes in some associations where the prominence was changed to allow hilly areas to be sectioned off even further within a state to allow some of those hilltops to count as summits. The goal of the MT was to get more people out activating summits.?

Now that you have all of the summits out there, it leaves people to be able to activate towards personal goals whatever they may be.

Some people want to make mountain goat, using VHF and above, some want to become a Goat activating only Summit over 10,000 feet high, some people want to only activate virgin summits, some people don’t care and just use their time off of work or their retirement to travel around and see the world from summits wherever they are and talk to other aficionados of the sport.?

Some people like to take the rules or the changes and use that as a reason to complain about one thing or another. In Germany, it got so bad that the angry mob created their own alternate program from SOTA.?

Just like the hobby of Ham Radio, there are many directions within this program that people have created or followed.

73,

Curtis KC5CW?



On Mar 8, 2025, at 11:38?PM, Neal N3ALT via groups.io <turettn@...> wrote:

?

If I remember correctly, the short answer is the standard formula is highest N% of peaks in that association get 10 points, the lowest M% get 1 point, and they spread out the rest.? Since Colorado is it's own association, and we have a lot of high mountains compared to neighboring states, it creates a bit of a skew.

Complicating matters further, there was apparently some drama when they split the US into smaller associations, and people didn't want the mountains near them to go down in value.? Some associations managed to keep their points with the percentile bands reflecting the entire US, instead of just their association.? This was before my time, but I'm sure if you ask on the nasota list people would be happy to provide more information and/or re-litigate old arguments.


On Sat, Mar 8, 2025, 21:55 Dave N0DET via <navyprowler=[email protected]> wrote:
Now you see why the Colorado SOTA ops are tougher than the average op....!!

;)

73,

Dave, N0DET



On Sat, Mar 8, 2025 at 9:31?PM Matt KF0RIG via <zimbelmanguitars=[email protected]> wrote:
Is W0C in some sort of purgatory for past wrongs??
Can someone tell me why our mountains are worth less points?
?
Below is a few snapshots on the Colorado border.
?
Feel free to berate/scorn me as the noob I am.
?
 

On Sat, Mar 8, 2025 at 09:31 PM, Matt KF0RIG wrote:
Is W0C in some sort of purgatory for past wrongs??
Can someone tell me why our mountains are worth less points?
?
Yeah, life isn't fair! ;-).? You just need to remind yourself that SOTA isn't a competition....I keep reminding myself of that...particularily when I watch guys in other associations do four or five 8-10pt summits in one day (many driveups....).? To make it interesting for me, I decided to do 100% unique W0C summits during my quest to reach mountain goat status.? Some guys like W0ADV are doing only 8-10pt Colorado peaks -- very hard journey to goat status!? You could do only first activations of W0C summits getting to goat (also very hard to do).? There are many ways to make it interesting and be the first activator to accomphish that particular challenge.
?
The point system also has nothing to do with summit difficulty.? That would be really hard to incorporate that into the grading system -- and subjective as well.? So, yeah, life isn't fair!? But what a fun hobby this is ;-).
?
73, Brad
WA6MM
?
?
?
 

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On 3/9/2025 7:07 AM, Brad WA6MM via groups.io wrote:

Yeah, life isn't fair! ;-).? You just need to remind yourself that SOTA isn't a competition....I keep reminding myself of that...particularily when I watch guys in other associations do four or five 8-10pt summits in one day (many driveups....).?
Agreed! The SOTA system actually works pretty well around the world, being adaptable to the local area.
BUT, comparing scoring between Associations does not work very well.

Bob K0NR
 

The subject of different points different states is most obvious from here in the Four Corners where I have on any given day Co, Ut, Az, and NM to choose?
from. Its pretty obvious where the skew is. I have done 50 points in a day in AZ. But on the other hand I have done some low point buttes in Utah that are really a bear to get up,?scary. And a lot of those Arizona ones are trail-less and lots of tough thorny bushwhacking. And of course there are the 600 foot elev. ocean side peaks elsewhere I have done that are really difficult. And many 4000 footers in EU have been long and hard for me. Which brings us back to Colorado. I think making Goat in Colorado alone as many of you have needs a star next to it. Its a bigger deal than anywhere except maybe Alaska (visiting my Doc son in Anchorage it was really hard to even find a qualifying peak I could figure out how to approach, I got ONE ) I am down two heart attacks, three stents and a defibrillator. I dont like hiking atbove?10,000 feet at all. Very different from when I was a youngster in Colorado. So I very much?appreciate those who can bag all the 13k Colorado peaks available. You all need a big congratulation. Kudos.?
cap W0CCA

On Sun, Mar 9, 2025 at 7:59?AM Bob K0NR via <bob=[email protected]> wrote:
On 3/9/2025 7:07 AM, Brad WA6MM via wrote:
Yeah, life isn't fair! ;-).? You just need to remind yourself that SOTA isn't a competition....I keep reminding myself of that...particularily when I watch guys in other associations do four or five 8-10pt summits in one day (many driveups....).?
Agreed! The SOTA system actually works pretty well around the world, being adaptable to the local area.
BUT, comparing scoring between Associations does not work very well.

Bob K0NR
 

On Sun, Mar 9, 2025 at 09:14 AM, Cap W0CCA wrote:
I am down two heart attacks, three stents and a defibrillator. I dont like hiking atbove?10,000 feet at all.
Holy cow Cap!? I had no idea you had some heart issues!? You were a World and National champ many times in your canoe racing so you must have had a great cardiovascular system to be able to do that.? Heck you're not even "old" yet :-).? Take care OM..
?
73, Brad
WA6MM
 

Actually likely?those activities that did it to me. Doer beware. Someday over a few beers -------


On Sun, Mar 9, 2025 at 10:40?AM Brad WA6MM via <wa6mm=[email protected]> wrote:
On Sun, Mar 9, 2025 at 09:14 AM, Cap W0CCA wrote:
I am down two heart attacks, three stents and a defibrillator. I dont like hiking atbove?10,000 feet at all.
Holy cow Cap!? I had no idea you had some heart issues!? You were a World and National champ many times in your canoe racing so you must have had a great cardiovascular system to be able to do that.? Heck you're not even "old" yet :-).? Take care OM..
?
73, Brad
WA6MM
 

This is a very interesting discussion.? I have more questions than answers....
?
SOTA is what it is, and it works pretty well.? We definitely have a tougher deal here in Colorado than in most other SOTA associations.? This is especially true in winter, but it is true in general.? Our state is still vast and wild to a considerable degree.
?
The worst part of our deal is that most of the high-point summits are only available with reasonable risk for a short time each year.? Fortunately we have a lot of summits that are fun and more available.??
?
Only a small fraction of amateur operators can activate very many - or any - SOTA peaks in our state, mostly because of age-related issues.? We also have various access problems with seasonal road closures, or no useful roads, private property, harsh winter conditions, and vast mountain landscapes much too large to cross.?
?
Much of this is good, because what we have is rare, special, precious, and unusual within the realm of amateur radio.? Here it is possible - in one day - to hike up above 4000 meters, in relatively pristine areas, carrying tiny but capable radios, get on the air in minutes, make many contacts across our continent and across oceans, and anyone who cares can see it on the internet, as well as participate in our shared experience.?
?
Look at the big picture and we've got an incredible deal - but SOTA here is more challenging, in so many ways.? It's also more rewarding, in my opinion.
?
73? ??

Carey

KX0R

On 03/09/2025 2:59 PM MDT Matt KF0RIG via groups.io <zimbelmanguitars@...> wrote:
?
?
Thank you for this response.? It is most helpful.??

 

Carey,

I don't activate much anymore but for a while there I lived in Dallas and only had miles to complain about for driving to ANY summit to activate.? I would take my vacation and my wife and I but usually just me one or more weekends a month... would drive to NM, or AR, or southern MO, or southern IL, or OK, or MS (for it's 1 point single summit for the entire state), so in that case the journey was all part of the experience.??

It seems like some people like to do something so they can complain about it - maybe they find their joy in finding all the wrongs?
It seems like some people like to do something so they can beat others or their chests about how much harder they worked than anyone else
It seems like some people like to do something so they can enjoy the experience and all that comes with it
It's hard sometimes not to see it as a competition when the stats are there to show the "standings"

Some of my best experiences are those bluebird days on top of a grand view and those aren't patented in Colorado.... I've seen amazing bends of the river in Arkansas and Texas while an activation in France was of a muddy field.

I've heard of a few summits in Europe where you can walk behind a tavern, eat, drink, and activate because the summit is in a town.

I recently got rear ended and can't even work due to a concussion and other issues so that is my last thought on this.... there's a large group of people that just read people's activation stories and don't post themselves.? I'd love it if more people posted their photos and activation expeditions so those who can't activate can live vicariously through those of you that can.? I do appreciate it when people put that effort out there.

73,
Curtis
kc5cw

On Sun, Mar 9, 2025 at 8:41?PM Carey KX0R via <careyfuller=[email protected]> wrote:
This is a very interesting discussion.? I have more questions than answers....
?
SOTA is what it is, and it works pretty well.? We definitely have a tougher deal here in Colorado than in most other SOTA associations.? This is especially true in winter, but it is true in general.? Our state is still vast and wild to a considerable degree.
?
The worst part of our deal is that most of the high-point summits are only available with reasonable risk for a short time each year.? Fortunately we have a lot of summits that are fun and more available.??
?
Only a small fraction of amateur operators can activate very many - or any - SOTA peaks in our state, mostly because of age-related issues.? We also have various access problems with seasonal road closures, or no useful roads, private property, harsh winter conditions, and vast mountain landscapes much too large to cross.?
?
Much of this is good, because what we have is rare, special, precious, and unusual within the realm of amateur radio.? Here it is possible - in one day - to hike up above 4000 meters, in relatively pristine areas, carrying tiny but capable radios, get on the air in minutes, make many contacts across our continent and across oceans, and anyone who cares can see it on the internet, as well as participate in our shared experience.?
?
Look at the big picture and we've got an incredible deal - but SOTA here is more challenging, in so many ways.? It's also more rewarding, in my opinion.
?
73? ??

Carey

KX0R

On 03/09/2025 2:59 PM MDT Matt KF0RIG via <zimbelmanguitars=[email protected]> wrote:
?
?
Thank you for this response.? It is most helpful.??

 

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Carey,

Agree 100%
The combination of plentiful summits and the public land make W0C a great place to do SOTA.

Bob

Bob Witte K0NR
bob@...
My website:
On 3/9/2025 8:41 PM, Carey KX0R via groups.io wrote:

This is a very interesting discussion.? I have more questions than answers....
?
SOTA is what it is, and it works pretty well.? We definitely have a tougher deal here in Colorado than in most other SOTA associations.? This is especially true in winter, but it is true in general.? Our state is still vast and wild to a considerable degree.
?
The worst part of our deal is that most of the high-point summits are only available with reasonable risk for a short time each year.? Fortunately we have a lot of summits that are fun and more available.??
?
Only a small fraction of amateur operators can activate very many - or any - SOTA peaks in our state, mostly because of age-related issues.? We also have various access problems with seasonal road closures, or no useful roads, private property, harsh winter conditions, and vast mountain landscapes much too large to cross.?
?
Much of this is good, because what we have is rare, special, precious, and unusual within the realm of amateur radio.? Here it is possible - in one day - to hike up above 4000 meters, in relatively pristine areas, carrying tiny but capable radios, get on the air in minutes, make many contacts across our continent and across oceans, and anyone who cares can see it on the internet, as well as participate in our shared experience.?
?
Look at the big picture and we've got an incredible deal - but SOTA here is more challenging, in so many ways.? It's also more rewarding, in my opinion.
?
73? ??

Carey

KX0R

On 03/09/2025 2:59 PM MDT Matt KF0RIG via groups.io <zimbelmanguitars@...> wrote:
?
?
Thank you for this response.? It is most helpful.??

 

If I remember correctly, the short answer is the standard formula is highest N% of peaks in that association get 10 points, the lowest M% get 1 point, and they spread out the rest.? Since Colorado is it's own association, and we have a lot of high mountains compared to neighboring states, it creates a bit of a skew.

Complicating matters further, there was apparently some drama when they split the US into smaller associations, and people didn't want the mountains near them to go down in value.? Some associations managed to keep their points with the percentile bands reflecting the entire US, instead of just their association.? This was before my time, but I'm sure if you ask on the nasota list people would be happy to provide more information and/or re-litigate old arguments.

?
Thanks Neal.? That was the answer I was looking for.?
?
It sounds like W0C has the more scientific scoring system based mostly on altitude, while other associations are artificially subsidizing their wimpy mountains. :)
?
I am from South Dakota and I can confirm nothing in the Black Hills is a 10 especially when Devils Tower (W7Y/EW-097) in WY is a 1.?
?
Thank you everyone for sharing your opinions/feelings.? Like all of you, I also feel privileged to be doing SOTA in W0C.? I hope that any scabs I may have ripped off with this question will heal back nicely.
?
 

Just a note to my Colorado summit experiences, all who I have reached out to in Colorado have been very helpful with Summits to chase close to Denver when I make my way on very short trips, including this weekend but there will be no time for summits. ?Brad, WA6MM, has invited me to return to Colorado to do some higher peaks with him when we don't need crampons.?
?
Cap, W0CCA, I do have to agree with you, SOTA is different wherever we find ourselves. I have wandered up some very nice trails to find myself on a 10 pointer in Arizona but only 4, 6 and 8 pointers in California and Colorado, so far. I think the height (not Sea Level) and prominence have something to do with the points.?
?
I am glad SOTA is not a "competition" with anyone other than myself. I completed my first non-competition SOTA Goat on Berrian Mountain, W0C/FR-060, Dec. 22, 2024 a 4+3 which would have been at least 10 in W7A-Arizona.?
?
--
72,
John - W7OTD
LICW #7314
"people ought to saunter in the mountains - not 'hike!" -John Muir

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