Locked
Re: Measure frequencies down to 500khz with tinysa?
Please can I gently draw attention to this forum front page general rule¡..¡±Please only post content related to the tinySA and avoid all content that could lead to off-topic discussions as I'd like to avoid having to moderate off topic discussions.¡±
?
It is becoming more like ¡°ham radio general¡± than ¡°TinySA¡± At least the last 15 posts in this topic (and similar status in many others too) have zero relevance to TinySA product. Thanks. Peter.
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Locked
Re: Measure frequencies down to 500khz with tinysa?
Yes.? And my middle name is spelled with a single "l" and the vowel in the middle is an "u".?
Dave - W?LEV
Dave,
I don't mean to be 'picky' but doing a web search for "Allen
Variances" yielded "Allan", so who is right? (yeah, techs like me
tend to be that way, fun intended)
Mike C. Sand Mtn GA
On 10/8/2024 1:13 PM, W0LEV wrote:
Yes,
in those days we were flying Cs clocks even on commercial
flights.? Fun days.? In the lab I was doing Allen Variances
between Cs and Rb.? We were finally convinced with all the
flights that we had to include corrections for relativity.? As
a physicist, I was elated.
Dave
- W?LEV
We had to do that here at the University of Illinois,
too. Back in the early 70's we were doing some ionospheric
propagation studies along with the University of Houston.
We flew two cesium clocks to NBS in Fort Collins CO. They
sent one to us and one to the University of Houston. I was
involved in it because I was studying radio science in
grad school.
Zack W9SZ
Back 'in-the-day' I had to carry (transport) the
'flying clock' from Northwest to White-House (no not
that wh house) to establish the exact 'phase' error
for the ROTHR (Relocatable Over The Horizon Radar).
Why? Yeah, that's another kettle of fish to digest.
Bottom line, it had to do with the 'error' distance
between the transmitter site at wh-house and our
receiver site at NW. If you stuck your periscope out
of the water 1000+ miles away and were traveling just
over 5mph, (knots) well let's just say you now became
a 'target' of interest. Yeah, Dave, then came GPS and
the gee-dunk trips were over.
Mike C. Sand Mtn GA
On 10/5/2024 12:48 PM, W0LEV wrote:
Yes.?
mHz is needed to "compete" in the FMTs.? However,
we should use correct abbreviations for the
units.?
Having
once been professionally involved in precision
timekeeping in the early days of GPS, I well
appreciate error bars in the 10^-14 Hz (in the
lab, only).? Of course, once on orbit, we had to
correct for relativity.? Now we take GPS for
granted.?
Dave
- W?LEV
Dave
- W?LEV
We all like to poke fun about this but if you ever
participate in the FMT you actually do need
milliHertz precision to get into the "green box".
On Fri, 4 Oct 2024 15:12:53 +0000
"W0LEV via "
<davearea51a=[email protected]>
wrote:
> QUOTE:? 200 mhz.
>
> 200 milliHertz?? That's the realm of
earthquakes and subsonics!? Possibly
> you mean 200 MHz, MegaHertz.
>
> Dave - W?LEV
--
73
-Jim
NU0C
--
--
|
Locked
Re: Measure frequencies down to 500khz with tinysa?
Dave,
I don't mean to be 'picky' but doing a web search for "Allen
Variances" yielded "Allan", so who is right? (yeah, techs like me
tend to be that way, fun intended)
Mike C. Sand Mtn GA
On 10/8/2024 1:13 PM, W0LEV wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Yes,
in those days we were flying Cs clocks even on commercial
flights.? Fun days.? In the lab I was doing Allen Variances
between Cs and Rb.? We were finally convinced with all the
flights that we had to include corrections for relativity.? As
a physicist, I was elated.
Dave
- W?LEV
We had to do that here at the University of Illinois,
too. Back in the early 70's we were doing some ionospheric
propagation studies along with the University of Houston.
We flew two cesium clocks to NBS in Fort Collins CO. They
sent one to us and one to the University of Houston. I was
involved in it because I was studying radio science in
grad school.
Zack W9SZ
Back 'in-the-day' I had to carry (transport) the
'flying clock' from Northwest to White-House (no not
that wh house) to establish the exact 'phase' error
for the ROTHR (Relocatable Over The Horizon Radar).
Why? Yeah, that's another kettle of fish to digest.
Bottom line, it had to do with the 'error' distance
between the transmitter site at wh-house and our
receiver site at NW. If you stuck your periscope out
of the water 1000+ miles away and were traveling just
over 5mph, (knots) well let's just say you now became
a 'target' of interest. Yeah, Dave, then came GPS and
the gee-dunk trips were over.
Mike C. Sand Mtn GA
On 10/5/2024 12:48 PM, W0LEV wrote:
Yes.?
mHz is needed to "compete" in the FMTs.? However,
we should use correct abbreviations for the
units.?
Having
once been professionally involved in precision
timekeeping in the early days of GPS, I well
appreciate error bars in the 10^-14 Hz (in the
lab, only).? Of course, once on orbit, we had to
correct for relativity.? Now we take GPS for
granted.?
Dave
- W?LEV
Dave
- W?LEV
We all like to poke fun about this but if you ever
participate in the FMT you actually do need
milliHertz precision to get into the "green box".
On Fri, 4 Oct 2024 15:12:53 +0000
"W0LEV via "
<davearea51a=[email protected]>
wrote:
> QUOTE:? 200 mhz.
>
> 200 milliHertz?? That's the realm of
earthquakes and subsonics!? Possibly
> you mean 200 MHz, MegaHertz.
>
> Dave - W?LEV
--
73
-Jim
NU0C
--
--
|
Locked
Re: Measure frequencies down to 500khz with tinysa?
Yes, in those days we were flying Cs clocks even on commercial flights.? Fun days.? In the lab I was doing Allen Variances between Cs and Rb.? We were finally convinced with all the flights that we had to include corrections for relativity.? As a physicist, I was elated.
Dave - W?LEV
We had to do that here at the University of Illinois, too. Back in the early 70's we were doing some ionospheric propagation studies along with the University of Houston. We flew two cesium clocks to NBS in Fort Collins CO. They sent one to us and one to the University of Houston. I was involved in it because I was studying radio science in grad school.
Zack W9SZ
Back 'in-the-day' I had to carry (transport) the 'flying clock'
from Northwest to White-House (no not that wh house) to establish
the exact 'phase' error for the ROTHR (Relocatable Over The
Horizon Radar). Why? Yeah, that's another kettle of fish to
digest. Bottom line, it had to do with the 'error' distance
between the transmitter site at wh-house and our receiver site at
NW. If you stuck your periscope out of the water 1000+ miles away
and were traveling just over 5mph, (knots) well let's just say you
now became a 'target' of interest. Yeah, Dave, then came GPS and
the gee-dunk trips were over.
Mike C. Sand Mtn GA
On 10/5/2024 12:48 PM, W0LEV wrote:
Yes.?
mHz is needed to "compete" in the FMTs.? However, we should
use correct abbreviations for the units.?
Having
once been professionally involved in precision timekeeping in
the early days of GPS, I well appreciate error bars in the
10^-14 Hz (in the lab, only).? Of course, once on orbit, we
had to correct for relativity.? Now we take GPS for granted.?
Dave
- W?LEV
Dave
- W?LEV
We all like to poke fun about this but if you ever participate
in the FMT you actually do need milliHertz precision to get
into the "green box".
On Fri, 4 Oct 2024 15:12:53 +0000
"W0LEV via "
<davearea51a=[email protected]>
wrote:
> QUOTE:? 200 mhz.
>
> 200 milliHertz?? That's the realm of earthquakes and
subsonics!? Possibly
> you mean 200 MHz, MegaHertz.
>
> Dave - W?LEV
--
73
-Jim
NU0C
--
|
Re: tinySA : most accurate power level
If you read the specifications for any of the TINYSAs, Eric recommends measurements to remain faithful to the input signal (no compression or aliasing) stay less than -26 dBm.? I usually shoot for -30 dBm.? Yes, your measurement is likely in compression.
Dave - W?LEV
I'm building a 1kW+ HF power amplifier.? I've a 2kW homebrew dummy-load with a 60dB PAD (measured with a nanoVNA it's around 60db flat to 100MHz).? ?
?
With an IC7300 at 100% FM, 7.2MHz, the tinySA reads -10.5dBm? (As expected: 50dBm less 60db = -10dBm)? (Checking the linearity from from ICOM at 10% to 100% indicates all is working well).
?
So far, so good.
?
Inserting the AMP & LPF: there's a gain of around 12dB (after a 15dB protective PAD at the input of the AMP).? Aligned with the device specification.??
Input: 42.5dBm output 52.5dBm (i.e. -7.5dBm as measured by the tinySA)
?
When the input is increased to 50dBm, one would expect around 62dBm (1600W) at the output : assuming nothing has entered compression.
However, the tinySA reads -2.5dBm which equates to 57.5dBm at the dummy-load (560W).? The AMP is drawing 1,426W DC, the device's datasheet suggests an efficiency of around 80%.? So, one might expect the tinySA to read around 0dBm, indicating 60dBm at the dummy-load.? Checking with a thermal camera, nothing in the AMP (transformer cores) or the LPF cores appear to be getting overly hot (not 850W hot!).??
?
My question is:
Is it likely that the tinySA has become non-linear once above around -10dBm at its input?
Is there a sweet spot where the tinySA is most accurate???
?
I haven't manually configured the tinySA's input attenuator: i.e. it's in Auto mode.? Been using NanoVNA-APP with the tinySA.??
Yep, my next test is to insert a 10dB PAD between the tinySA & dummy-load (the AMP is currently off line for a completely different reason).??
?
Thanks in advance.
?
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Re: tinySA : most accurate power level
For best level accuracy, keep the level AFTER the internal attenuator below -25 dBm, preferably below -35 dBm.
Below -35 dBm the accuracy is level independent as long as you stay 6 dB above the noise floor
--
Designer of the tinySA
For more info go to
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Re: Can't update firmware
Thanks Stan - that fixed it. Correct driver now installed.
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Re: tinySA : most accurate power level
Erik, thank you for your rapid reply.
?
Is there a sweet spot (power level range) where the tinySA is most accurate?
?
Reflecting on the situation:? I only need to know a power range of 20-30dB where the tinySA is most accurate, I have a 10dB/20dB/30dB PAD which can be used to 'land' in that zone.??
?
I'll update the firmware & use the attenuator & PADs when I next have an opportunity to test the AMP.??
?
Thanks for all the efforts.? The tinySA is great.? Especially when used with a nanoVNA (albeit for different design & measurement tasks).??
?
PS: I bought the tinySA from Zennko store in June 2023.??
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Re: Can't update firmware
You have the wrong windows driver for use with tinysa-app.? ?Please see the document at the following link, and it will show you how to install the correct driver.? Note that tinysa-app is derived from nanovna-app, and uses the exact same update method, and will work fine once you have the correct driver in place.
/g/nanovna-users/files/Miscellaneous/DFU-mode%20Driver%20for%20Win10Win11
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Re: Can't update firmware
On some windows systems the program fails to open the USB device when the name starts with \?\
Better use the dfu-util for upgrading.
--
Designer of the tinySA
For more info go to
|
Re: Can't update firmware
Just purchased a tinySA ultra from the Zeenko store, so it's genuine, and I can't upgrade the firmware.
?
1. Running on Windows 11
2. Have installed STM32 drivers
3. When I go into DFU mode I see a "STM32 BOOTLOADER" in Device Manager.
4. When I run tinySA-App.exe and attempt to upload firmware, I get the following message.
?
?
Any idea how to get past this?
|
Re: Can't update firmware
PS; Or you are trying to load your NanoVNA H or H4 using the software for updating the TyniSA? You either need the FW for the TyniSA instead of the NanoVNA or you need the correct software to update the NanoVNA? Either way, you appear to have the wrong FW or software. Clyde KC7BJE?
Just purchased a tinySA ultra from the Zeenko store, so it's genuine, and I can't upgrade the firmware.
?
1. Running on Windows 11
2. Have installed STM32 drivers
3. When I go into DFU mode I see a "STM32 BOOTLOADER" in Device Manager.
4. When I run tinySA-App.exe and attempt to upload firmware, I get the following message.
?
?
Any idea how to get past this?
|
Just purchased a tinySA ultra from the Zeenko store, so it's genuine, and I can't upgrade the firmware.
?
1. Running on Windows 11
2. Have installed STM32 drivers
3. When I go into DFU mode I see a "STM32 BOOTLOADER" in Device Manager.
4. When I run tinySA-App.exe and attempt to upload firmware, I get the following message.
?
?
Any idea how to get past this?
|
Locked
Re: Measure frequencies down to 500khz with tinysa?
We had to do that here at the University of Illinois, too. Back in the early 70's we were doing some ionospheric propagation studies along with the University of Houston. We flew two cesium clocks to NBS in Fort Collins CO. They sent one to us and one to the University of Houston. I was involved in it because I was studying radio science in grad school.
Zack W9SZ
Back 'in-the-day' I had to carry (transport) the 'flying clock'
from Northwest to White-House (no not that wh house) to establish
the exact 'phase' error for the ROTHR (Relocatable Over The
Horizon Radar). Why? Yeah, that's another kettle of fish to
digest. Bottom line, it had to do with the 'error' distance
between the transmitter site at wh-house and our receiver site at
NW. If you stuck your periscope out of the water 1000+ miles away
and were traveling just over 5mph, (knots) well let's just say you
now became a 'target' of interest. Yeah, Dave, then came GPS and
the gee-dunk trips were over.
Mike C. Sand Mtn GA
On 10/5/2024 12:48 PM, W0LEV wrote:
Yes.?
mHz is needed to "compete" in the FMTs.? However, we should
use correct abbreviations for the units.?
Having
once been professionally involved in precision timekeeping in
the early days of GPS, I well appreciate error bars in the
10^-14 Hz (in the lab, only).? Of course, once on orbit, we
had to correct for relativity.? Now we take GPS for granted.?
Dave
- W?LEV
Dave
- W?LEV
We all like to poke fun about this but if you ever participate
in the FMT you actually do need milliHertz precision to get
into the "green box".
On Fri, 4 Oct 2024 15:12:53 +0000
"W0LEV via "
<davearea51a=[email protected]>
wrote:
> QUOTE:? 200 mhz.
>
> 200 milliHertz?? That's the realm of earthquakes and
subsonics!? Possibly
> you mean 200 MHz, MegaHertz.
>
> Dave - W?LEV
--
73
-Jim
NU0C
--
|
Locked
Re: Measure frequencies down to 500khz with tinysa?
Back 'in-the-day' I had to carry (transport) the 'flying clock'
from Northwest to White-House (no not that wh house) to establish
the exact 'phase' error for the ROTHR (Relocatable Over The
Horizon Radar). Why? Yeah, that's another kettle of fish to
digest. Bottom line, it had to do with the 'error' distance
between the transmitter site at wh-house and our receiver site at
NW. If you stuck your periscope out of the water 1000+ miles away
and were traveling just over 5mph, (knots) well let's just say you
now became a 'target' of interest. Yeah, Dave, then came GPS and
the gee-dunk trips were over.
Mike C. Sand Mtn GA
On 10/5/2024 12:48 PM, W0LEV wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Yes.?
mHz is needed to "compete" in the FMTs.? However, we should
use correct abbreviations for the units.?
Having
once been professionally involved in precision timekeeping in
the early days of GPS, I well appreciate error bars in the
10^-14 Hz (in the lab, only).? Of course, once on orbit, we
had to correct for relativity.? Now we take GPS for granted.?
Dave
- W?LEV
Dave
- W?LEV
We all like to poke fun about this but if you ever participate
in the FMT you actually do need milliHertz precision to get
into the "green box".
On Fri, 4 Oct 2024 15:12:53 +0000
"W0LEV via "
<davearea51a=[email protected]>
wrote:
> QUOTE:? 200 mhz.
>
> 200 milliHertz?? That's the realm of earthquakes and
subsonics!? Possibly
> you mean 200 MHz, MegaHertz.
>
> Dave - W?LEV
--
73
-Jim
NU0C
--
|
Re: tinySA : most accurate power level
Early tinySA firmware was not very good at avoiding compression with strong input signals
It is easy to check for compression
Switch to manual attenuator mode and increase attenuation above the auto level.
If the measured power level increases there was compression.
Keep increasing attenuation till there is no longer a change of measured level
--
Designer of the tinySA
For more info go to
|
tinySA : most accurate power level
I'm building a 1kW+ HF power amplifier.? I've a 2kW homebrew dummy-load with a 60dB PAD (measured with a nanoVNA it's around 60db flat to 100MHz).? ?
?
With an IC7300 at 100% FM, 7.2MHz, the tinySA reads -10.5dBm? (As expected: 50dBm less 60db = -10dBm)? (Checking the linearity from from ICOM at 10% to 100% indicates all is working well).
?
So far, so good.
?
Inserting the AMP & LPF: there's a gain of around 12dB (after a 15dB protective PAD at the input of the AMP).? Aligned with the device specification.??
Input: 42.5dBm output 52.5dBm (i.e. -7.5dBm as measured by the tinySA)
?
When the input is increased to 50dBm, one would expect around 62dBm (1600W) at the output : assuming nothing has entered compression.
However, the tinySA reads -2.5dBm which equates to 57.5dBm at the dummy-load (560W).? The AMP is drawing 1,426W DC, the device's datasheet suggests an efficiency of around 80%.? So, one might expect the tinySA to read around 0dBm, indicating 60dBm at the dummy-load.? Checking with a thermal camera, nothing in the AMP (transformer cores) or the LPF cores appear to be getting overly hot (not 850W hot!).??
?
My question is:
Is it likely that the tinySA has become non-linear once above around -10dBm at its input?
Is there a sweet spot where the tinySA is most accurate???
?
I haven't manually configured the tinySA's input attenuator: i.e. it's in Auto mode.? Been using NanoVNA-APP with the tinySA.??
Yep, my next test is to insert a 10dB PAD between the tinySA & dummy-load (the AMP is currently off line for a completely different reason).??
?
Thanks in advance.
?
|
Locked
Re: Measure frequencies down to 500khz with tinysa?
Which is why I wrote it as "milliHertz". MilliHertz just would not be right. :) On Sat, 5 Oct 2024 16:48:46 +0000 "W0LEV via groups.io" <davearea51a@...> wrote: Yes. mHz is needed to "compete" in the FMTs. However, we should use
correct abbreviations for the units. -- 73 -Jim NU0C
|
Locked
Re: Measure frequencies down to 500khz with tinysa?
Yes.? mHz is needed to "compete" in the FMTs.? However, we should use correct abbreviations for the units.?
Having once been professionally involved in precision timekeeping in the early days of GPS, I well appreciate error bars in the 10^-14 Hz (in the lab, only).? Of course, once on orbit, we had to correct for relativity.? Now we take GPS for granted.?
Dave - W?LEV
Dave - W?LEV
We all like to poke fun about this but if you ever participate in the FMT you actually do need milliHertz precision to get into the "green box".
On Fri, 4 Oct 2024 15:12:53 +0000
"W0LEV via " <davearea51a=[email protected]> wrote:
> QUOTE:? 200 mhz.
>
> 200 milliHertz?? That's the realm of earthquakes and subsonics!? Possibly
> you mean 200 MHz, MegaHertz.
>
> Dave - W?LEV
--
73
-Jim
NU0C
|
Locked
Re: Measure frequencies down to 500khz with tinysa?
We all like to poke fun about this but if you ever participate in the FMT you actually do need milliHertz precision to get into the "green box". On Fri, 4 Oct 2024 15:12:53 +0000 "W0LEV via groups.io" <davearea51a@...> wrote: QUOTE: 200 mhz.
200 milliHertz? That's the realm of earthquakes and subsonics! Possibly
you mean 200 MHz, MegaHertz.
Dave - W?LEV -- 73 -Jim NU0C
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Mike C.
Clyde Lambert
Jim Shorney