Re: ways to tackle USB keyboard interference?
You mentioned the other day that you are using an indoor loop.
Fifteen to twenty years ago I used indoor loops for LF/MF with no problems, a Wellbrook loft mounted on a rotator and a Palomar tuned active ferrite loop mounted right alongside my then PC served me very well, but nowadays the the amount of self generated interference in the average domestic dwelling makes this far more difficult, if not impossible.
You also asked about an indoor mounted Wellbrook loop vs an outdoor active vertical.Not knowing about individual circumstances can make answering such questions a bit hit and miss, but if you do have room for an outdoor antenna I would recommend the Wellbrook over an active vertical, I do use both though and would always suggest experimentation where possible, and would also recommend mounting anything as far away as possible.I know this may not be practical but, by way of example, not so long ago I found it necessary to mount a Wellbrook some 15 to 20 metres away from the building in order to adequately reduce the LF interference generated by the electronic ballast of a modern fluorescent light.Ok, so the light is in the process of being scrapped but this is just one example of the problems we now face.
Ironically one of the worst examples of wall wart switch mode noise I've come across was from an Icom PSU supplied with one of their wideband receivers, another recommendation would be to always use linear PSUs where possible.
Of? course do all you can to reduce USB interference etc, but if it's still reaching your softrock via the indoor antenna, rather than via the cabling, then it's quite likely you could be fighting a losing battle.
Just a further thought re the USB keyboard, for several years now I've used Logiteck K260 wireless kits for keyboard and mouse, connecting via a small dongle plugged into a USB port on the PC.
The wireles link, I believe, is at 2.4GHz, but either way it certainly doesn't interfere with my radios, nor with wi-fi when I was using it.I think I paid somewhere between ?10 and ?20 per kit, and whilst this kit might be obsolete now I'm sure there will be similar available.
I just bought them for the convenience of? being cable free but something like that might help reduce your USB problems.
Nigel GM8PZR
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-----Original Message----- From: JonI via groups.io <ji425bt@...> To: [email protected]Sent: Mon, 7 Jun 2021 16:35 Subject: [softrock40] ways to tackle USB keyboard interference? ...other than unplugging it!? My USB keyboard is causing quite a lot of interference to the Softrock.? I have tried different USB ports, but still have noise.? I also used a couple of snap closed ferrite chokes.? This helps, but if I keep adding them, soon there won't be enough wire left for the keyboard to be of any use.? I just wondered if maybe there was something I could add to the inside of the keyboard which might suffice.? Thanks!
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Re: ways to tackle USB keyboard interference?
Hello Joni,
Have you tried another keyboard?
I spent much of my work life with EMI problems and FCC part 15 compliance. (Retired now) FCC part 15 only says it will not interfere with NORMAL home entertainment electronics. Amateur radio receivers are vastly more sensitive and not protected. Much of electronic junk from China fails pretty bad if tested. The FCC has no teeth & not enough staff to catch it. Your keyboard may not even meet FCC part 15 requirements which are not strict enough to protect amateur receivers.
Ferrite sleeves & clip-ons come in many flavors. (NOT chocolate, Vanilla & Strawberry) Most of my compliance headaches were in the 30 to 500MHz area. A lot of the Ferrites are optimized for that region, not HF. I used a lot of ferrites from Laird so I am familiar with them. I got engineering lab parts through Digikey. Not endorsing either as there are many other good suppliers as well.
Laird materials:
LF good from 2 to 30 MHz. Not available in clip-ons Hi permeability of materiel will not handle slight gap of a clip on.
28 good from 30 to 500MHz. Most common but less effective below 30MHz.
HF good from 300 to 2000MHz. Has virtually no effect at HF radio range of 3 to 30MHz. Poor choice of alphabet soup of part numbers.
It also may pay to put filters or ferrites on the softrock cables. The outside of a coax shield can be an undesired "Antenna"! Power cable often couple in noise & filters often help there. Sometime separating cables in a bundle make problem go away or get worse.
The clip on ferrites can be less effective if there is any contamination between the 2 chunks of ferrite where they meet.
If the hole in a ferrite is big enough, running cable through 2 x with a loop around the outside sometimes helps. At lower frequencies 2 passes gives 4 times the impedance. At higher frequencies 2 passes are often WORSE.
A toroid core such as Digikey 240-2286-ND with USB connector looped through 4 or 5 times may help.
Troubleshooting this type problem often seems like black magic or worse.
Another odd note: I have a daughter named Joni who is almost 40 & still kayaks off of waterfalls. Playing with radios sounds safer!
Bruce NT4RT
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-----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto: [email protected]] On Behalf Of JonI via groups.io Sent: Monday, June 7, 2021 11:36 AM To: [email protected]Subject: [softrock40] ways to tackle USB keyboard interference? ...other than unplugging it! My USB keyboard is causing quite a lot of interference to the Softrock. I have tried different USB ports, but still have noise. I also used a couple of snap closed ferrite chokes. This helps, but if I keep adding them, soon there won't be enough wire left for the keyboard to be of any use. I just wondered if maybe there was something I could add to the inside of the keyboard which might suffice. Thanks!
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Re: ways to tackle USB keyboard interference?
Unplugging it isn't necessarily tragic. You could replace it with an old school PS/2 keyboard (most desktop computers still have a port for those that can accept either a keyboard or a mouse), a wireless keyboard with a USB dongle, or a Bluetooth keyboard (you might have to buy a Bluetooth receiver). On Mon, Jun 7, 2021 at 11:36 AM JonI via groups.io <ji425bt= [email protected]> wrote: ...other than unplugging it! My USB keyboard is causing quite a lot of
interference to the Softrock. I have tried different USB ports, but
still have noise. I also used a couple of snap closed ferrite chokes.
This helps, but if I keep adding them, soon there won't be enough wire
left for the keyboard to be of any use. I just wondered if maybe there
was something I could add to the inside of the keyboard which might
suffice. Thanks!
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ways to tackle USB keyboard interference?
...other than unplugging it!? My USB keyboard is causing quite a lot of interference to the Softrock.? I have tried different USB ports, but still have noise.? I also used a couple of snap closed ferrite chokes.? This helps, but if I keep adding them, soon there won't be enough wire left for the keyboard to be of any use.? I just wondered if maybe there was something I could add to the inside of the keyboard which might suffice.? Thanks!
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Re: Ensemble RX II interference source solved and question about magnetic loop!
Hi John,
Well, I have a lot of things going on at the moment.? I'm using an indoor loop which has a preamp, two peaking controls that I can control remotely, and also a relay for switching to lower bands. So a lot of wiring runs from the SDR to where the switches and peaking controls are. One thing I did do this week is take the "wall warts" I've been using and add capacitance and a regulator to a couple to get ripple way down.? I also run a lot of snap closed ferrite cores which help, but I have now run out of them with my extra equipment.
Getting there.? The biggest offender, the USB speakers, disconnected and the result has been greatly improved just from that alone.
Jon
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On 6/5/21 4:47 PM, John Duquette wrote: Jon,
As you are having a lot of USB related problems, that's making me think it could be the power supply for the USB circuits in your PC. I suggest you get a powered USB hub and plug everything into the hub to see if that helps.
John D
KC8OFW
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Re: question about converting Ensemble RX II from HF to LF
Hi Jon,
I continue to build LF RX II receiver boards and would be happy to convert one of your HF RX II receiver boards to a LF receiver for a small charge.
If interested send me an email to kb9yig@....
Regards,
Tony, kb9yig
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On Jun 5, 2021, at 4:05 PM, JonI via groups.io <ji425bt@...> wrote:
Shucks, as that looks like a surface mount device (U12), I won't be doing the conversion after all. Thanks for the info though.
Jon
On 6/5/21 9:29 AM, Alan G4ZFQ wrote:
I can't find anything regarding the extra IC and link. Could you please share a link for this? Jon,
The details are in the link you sent. I see it on the schematic. U12 is required, the wire link not.
73 Alan G4ZFQ
On 6/5/21 3:02 AM, Alan G4ZFQ wrote:
Is all that would be required under the "180 Khz through 3000 Khz LF BPF set"? I don't believe any of the component changes here are surface mount, correct? What type of capacitors are those?
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Re: Ensemble RX II interference source solved and question about magnetic loop!
Jon,
As you are having a lot of USB related problems, that's making me think it could be the power supply for the USB circuits in your PC. I suggest you get a powered USB hub and plug everything into the hub to see if that helps.
John D
KC8OFW
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Re: question about converting Ensemble RX II from HF to LF
as that looks like a surface mount device (U12), I won't be doing the conversion after all. Jon, You will not believe me but it is really easy. Solder with any iron, use solder wick if you make bridges. I've never damaged a component by clumsy soldering. 73 Alan G4ZFQ
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Re: question about converting Ensemble RX II from HF to LF
Shucks, as that looks like a surface mount device (U12), I won't be doing the conversion after all.? Thanks for the info though.
Jon
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On 6/5/21 9:29 AM, Alan G4ZFQ wrote: I can't find anything regarding the extra IC and link.? Could you please share a link for this? Jon,
The details are in the link you sent. I see it on the schematic. U12 is required, the wire link not.
73 Alan G4ZFQ
On 6/5/21 3:02 AM, Alan G4ZFQ wrote:
Is all that would be required under the "180 Khz through 3000 Khz LF BPF set"?? I don't believe any of the component changes here are surface mount, correct?? What type of capacitors are those?
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Re: question about converting Ensemble RX II from HF to LF
I can't find anything regarding the extra IC and link.? Could you please share a link for this? Jon, The details are in the link you sent. I see it on the schematic. U12 is required, the wire link not. 73 Alan G4ZFQ On 6/5/21 3:02 AM, Alan G4ZFQ wrote:
Is all that would be required under the "180 Khz through 3000 Khz LF BPF set"?? I don't believe any of the component changes here are surface mount, correct?? What type of capacitors are those?
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Re: question about converting Ensemble RX II from HF to LF
Hi Alan,
I can't find anything regarding the extra IC and link.? Could you please share a link for this?
Sorry for my ignorance.? These were Tony builds, so I never did any of this myself.? I figured I could probably handle the mods if not too complex without shelling out for a separate unit just for LF.
By the way, should anyone here want to trade, I'd be willing to do that also and would save me some work (and you get a basically unused HF unit in return).? Trade my spare HF Ensemble RX II for your LF one.
Thanks,
Jon
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On 6/5/21 3:02 AM, Alan G4ZFQ wrote:
Is all that would be required under the "180 Khz through 3000 Khz LF BPF set"?? I don't believe any of the component changes here are surface mount, correct?? What type of capacitors are those?
Jon,
Add the extra IC and link.
The capacitors are ceramic as illustrated on Robby's page.
(Personally I find it easier to replace SM capacitors but none of those are.)
73 Alan G4ZFQ
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Re: question about converting Ensemble RX II from HF to LF
Is all that would be required under the "180 Khz through 3000 Khz LF BPF set"?? I don't believe any of the component changes here are surface mount, correct?? What type of capacitors are those?
Jon, Add the extra IC and link. The capacitors are ceramic as illustrated on Robby's page. (Personally I find it easier to replace SM capacitors but none of those are.) 73 Alan G4ZFQ
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question about converting Ensemble RX II from HF to LF
Since I have the extra HF, I am considering changing out components to get LF.? I am looking at his page:
Is all that would be required under the "180 Khz through 3000 Khz LF BPF set"?? I don't believe any of the component changes here are surface mount, correct?? What type of capacitors are those?
Thank you,
Jon
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Re: Ensemble RX II interference source solved and question about magnetic loop!
Once I solve all of this interference, I'm going to have to take pictures of how it all goes as I find special routing, number of cores per cable, etc all custom done.? Any movement of cables, re-routing, etc could jeopardize all of the solved interference. Jon, You seem to have an exceptional amount of interference problems. I wonder if you have ground loop problems. Here is a logical way of checking connections /g/softrock40/message/8242773 Alan G4ZFQ
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Re: Ensemble RX II interference source solved and question about magnetic loop!
Hi Alan,
Yes, I am suspecting the amplifier inside the tiny speaker volume control.? Needless to say, I won't be using it anymore.
Today has been an interference tracking day.? Another source is apparently the Netgear N3100 USB stick I use to WIFI to the router.? I didn't have issues at first, but since I re-ran all the cables today for easier access, I started having issues.? It took two snap together ferrite cores to stop it.
Finally, the source of the tones that get closer as I increase in frequency.? Seems to be the monitor.? If I turn off the monitor, the tones disappear.? Winding the monitor cable through two ferrite cores has curtailed the tones but not completely as I believe it would take additional cores which I don't have.
Once I solve all of this interference, I'm going to have to take pictures of how it all goes as I find special routing, number of cores per cable, etc all custom done.? Any movement of cables, re-routing, etc could jeopardize all of the solved interference.
Jon
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On 6/4/21 1:18 PM, Alan G4ZFQ wrote: no matter if I plug in on the desktop USB or the little USB 5V module that plugs into the AC, I get the noise! ?Jon
As it occurs with both power feeds I wonder if it is the speaker amplifier?
There are cheap class D amps around that may well radiate the switching frequency + harmonics.
On a separate note, I would appreciate some thoughts on a Wellbrook loop and how it works with the Softrock as well as performance with a short (less than 8 feet) active antenna.
I've not done any tests but these should give a good signal for a Softrock, maybe more than it actually needs.
73 Alan G4ZFQ
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Re: Ensemble RX II interference source solved and question about magnetic loop!
no matter if I plug in on the desktop USB or the little USB 5V module that plugs into the AC, I get the noise! Jon As it occurs with both power feeds I wonder if it is the speaker amplifier? There are cheap class D amps around that may well radiate the switching frequency + harmonics. On a separate note, I would appreciate some thoughts on a Wellbrook loop and how it works with the Softrock as well as performance with a short (less than 8 feet) active antenna. I've not done any tests but these should give a good signal for a Softrock, maybe more than it actually needs. 73 Alan G4ZFQ
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Re: Ensemble RX II interference source solved and question about magnetic loop!
Thanks, Shirley.? As I tune HF, I find that sometimes the interference isn't completely gone, but then again I still have a USB keyboard and other USB devices plugged in.? The USB keyboard is known to cause a lot of interference, but snap closed ferrite has helped with it.
Another interference I'm seeing are carriers spaced about 30 Khz or so apart.? Not everywhere, but certain parts of HF.? The auto notch can take care of them as long as they're not too wide, but sometimes they are a bit wide for auto notch.? I was just reading what the source could be, but I have forgotten and didn't bookmark it.? Rats.
Jon
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On 6/4/21 11:13 AM, Shirley Dulcey KE1L wrote: Cheap USB speakers are likely moving data on the USB bus at 12 Mbps, the
speed of full speed USB. Really cheap ones might be using low speed, 1.5
Mbps; that has enough bandwidth for mono but would be tight at best for
stereo. (Typically USB audio devices are using 44.1 KHz sampling and 16 bit
depth, so a single channel of audio uses 705.6 Kbps.) Those speeds mean
that the USB data stream itself is the likely source of HF interference,
especially low speed because it has harmonics all over the bands. The most
likely mitigation would be a better USB cable. It might also be necessary
to add shielding to the speakers themselves.
Fancy new stuff might use high speed from USB 2.0; that runs at 480 Mbps,
moving the frequencies outside the HF bands. USB 2.0 devices also come with
better cables because it's necessary for integrity of the faster signals.
Super Speed from USB 3.0 (5 Gbps and up) is not seen on audio devices
except for very large multichannel interfaces; the new generation of
smaller interfaces with USB-C ports are still using 480 Mbps data
transmission.
On Fri, Jun 4, 2021 at 10:51 AM JonI via groups.io <ji425bt=
[email protected]> wrote:
I finally figured out the source of my interference- my USB powered
speakers! Never thought it would be those, so never checked them.
However, no matter if I plug in on the desktop USB or the little USB 5V
module that plugs into the AC, I get the noise! Unfortunately, I really
like these little speakers but I don't absolutely have to use them and
the headphones are doing fine for now.
I tried wrapping the USB wires around a couple snap closed ferrite cores
I have here. This did help somewhat, but there's still a nasty central
interference band at random on HF (about 5 Khz wide). Other than not
using the speakers, might there be something else I could do to stop the
interference? Could I build a better USB filter or do something to the
speaker circuit?
Just some thoughts, not critical and thanks in advance.
On a separate note, I would appreciate some thoughts on a Wellbrook loop
and how it works with the Softrock as well as performance with a short
(less than 8 feet) active antenna. The loop would primarily be used
indoors or perhaps in a 15 foot high attic; the active whip outdoors
maybe 15 feet high. I've seen plenty of videos on these loops/
antennas, but nothing Softrock specific. Thanks.
Jon
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Re: Ensemble RX II interference source solved and question about magnetic loop!
Cheap USB speakers are likely moving data on the USB bus at 12 Mbps, the speed of full speed USB. Really cheap ones might be using low speed, 1.5 Mbps; that has enough bandwidth for mono but would be tight at best for stereo. (Typically USB audio devices are using 44.1 KHz sampling and 16 bit depth, so a single channel of audio uses 705.6 Kbps.) Those speeds mean that the USB data stream itself is the likely source of HF interference, especially low speed because it has harmonics all over the bands. The most likely mitigation would be a better USB cable. It might also be necessary to add shielding to the speakers themselves. Fancy new stuff might use high speed from USB 2.0; that runs at 480 Mbps, moving the frequencies outside the HF bands. USB 2.0 devices also come with better cables because it's necessary for integrity of the faster signals. Super Speed from USB 3.0 (5 Gbps and up) is not seen on audio devices except for very large multichannel interfaces; the new generation of smaller interfaces with USB-C ports are still using 480 Mbps data transmission. On Fri, Jun 4, 2021 at 10:51 AM JonI via groups.io <ji425bt= [email protected]> wrote: I finally figured out the source of my interference- my USB powered
speakers! Never thought it would be those, so never checked them.
However, no matter if I plug in on the desktop USB or the little USB 5V
module that plugs into the AC, I get the noise! Unfortunately, I really
like these little speakers but I don't absolutely have to use them and
the headphones are doing fine for now.
I tried wrapping the USB wires around a couple snap closed ferrite cores
I have here. This did help somewhat, but there's still a nasty central
interference band at random on HF (about 5 Khz wide). Other than not
using the speakers, might there be something else I could do to stop the
interference? Could I build a better USB filter or do something to the
speaker circuit?
Just some thoughts, not critical and thanks in advance.
On a separate note, I would appreciate some thoughts on a Wellbrook loop
and how it works with the Softrock as well as performance with a short
(less than 8 feet) active antenna. The loop would primarily be used
indoors or perhaps in a 15 foot high attic; the active whip outdoors
maybe 15 feet high. I've seen plenty of videos on these loops/
antennas, but nothing Softrock specific. Thanks.
Jon
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Ensemble RX II interference source solved and question about magnetic loop!
I finally figured out the source of my interference- my USB powered speakers!? Never thought it would be those, so never checked them. However, no matter if I plug in on the desktop USB or the little USB 5V module that plugs into the AC, I get the noise! Unfortunately, I really like these little speakers but I don't absolutely have to use them and the headphones are doing fine for now.
I tried wrapping the USB wires around a couple snap closed ferrite cores I have here.? This did help somewhat, but there's still a nasty central interference band at random on HF (about 5 Khz wide). Other than not using the speakers, might there be something else I could do to stop the interference?? Could I build a better USB filter or do something to the speaker circuit?
Just some thoughts, not critical and thanks in advance.
On a separate note, I would appreciate some thoughts on a Wellbrook loop and how it works with the Softrock as well as performance with a short (less than 8 feet) active antenna.? The loop would primarily be used indoors or perhaps in a 15 foot high attic; the active whip outdoors maybe 15 feet high.? I've seen plenty of videos on these loops/ antennas, but nothing Softrock specific.? Thanks.
Jon
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Re: longshot, but hoping someone can help with this
Hi Rob,
Thanks, but unfortunately none of the QtRadio versions are working on my Win desktop.? They either just stall or I get errors at start up.? Tried to remedy by selecting different configs and sound settings, but to no avail.
Jon
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On 5/31/21 11:47 AM, Rob Frohne wrote: Hi Jon,
You might considerghpsdr3-alex using QtRadio. <>
73,
Rob
KL7NA
On 5/31/21 7:28 AM, JonI via groups.io wrote:
CAUTION: This email originated from outside the Walla Walla University email system.
Because the Softrock and associated PC are in an isolated room in the
house, to keep everything in close proximity to the antenna, my radio
servicing lab, etc etc, I have been trying to form a remote connection
between where I use my laptop and the desktop where the SDR is. The
Softrock desktop has Win 7 and my laptops have Ubuntu 18.04. Yesterday,
I found a Ubuntu program that allowed the link called Remmina. It
allows use of RDP (remote desktop protocol) that Win uses and, after a
few hours, got the link made between the laptop and desktop. However,
there's one thing missing: sound.? While I can remotely play a sound
file on the Win desktop and hear it through the laptop, as well as any
Win made sounds, I am unable to transfer any sound from HDSDR. It's not
a complete deal breaker as I could run an extended speaker wire out to
where I use the laptop, but I would rather avoid it if possible.
Any ideas as to how to transfer the sound would be welcome and thanks in
advance.
Jon
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Shirley Dulcey KE1L