Re: What is a "small layout"
Archie, Yes, the quarter point is a simplistic analysis of a uniform load, but is close enough to distributing the bending moments and works quite well with a ladder frame with cross members at a nominal spacing of one foot.
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On Oct 5, 2018, at 12:40 PM, Archibald Campbell < fdonmedway@...> wrote:
I would dispute the use of quarter points. Theoretically this gives no moment mid span which increases the moments over the supports relative to shorter overhangs. It also increases the risk of someone leaning or falling
onto the end of the layout and tipping it up.
The optimum length from the end depends on whether you design for the dead load - known as a Uniformly Distributed Load - for the risk of the accidental load which would be a point load at mid span or end of overhang.
The UDL formulae are Wl^2/2 for the overhang and WL^2/8 - the overhang moments where l is the overhang length and L the span length. For point loads it's Wl and WL/4.
This gives optimi of c1/5 points for UDL and 1/6 points for the point loads, remembering that the accidental loads are very unlikely to occur at the end and middle simultaneously.
Personally I'd go for the 1/6 point.
Archie
PS: Locating the legs ? of the module length in from each end results in the best distribution of bending forces on the module, as those structural engineers following
this group will attest to. Locating legs at the ends creates the worst distribution of forces.
?
?
Ed,
Our modular group has been using “Ultra-light” modules for the past fifteen years. (See
“” in
?p.?36? and “” in ?p.?89.) Most of these modules use 1 x 1 mortised and glued oak framing topped by 1” foam insulation board. I bundle four 48” long sections together hardboard ends
connecting all four and with a trap around the middle with a handle I can easily carry all four (16 feet of modules) with one hand. (each module is typically 5 lbs. in weight.) One key is that the legs are NOT rigidly attached to the modules. Rigidly attaching
legs to modules imposes a lot of stress on the module frame. Our modules have a cross piece located 12” in from each end. The legs are a standardized, lightweight folding system of 1x2 Poplar and ?” dowel with the tops of the legs notched to fit the 1x cross
frames, and the modules simply sit on top of these legs. (I first read of simply setting modules on supports in one of Ian Rice’s layout plan books.) These modules have been to hundreds of train shows, one even traveling to Warwick Rhode Island for the National
Narrow Gauge Convention.
My more recent modules have used 1 x 2 Poplar framing topped with ?” black foam-core board. This has proven even more rigid than our older modules.
Tom K.
?
From:
[email protected] <[email protected]>
On Behalf Of Ed Weldon
Sent: Wednesday, October 3, 2018 11:06 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [small-layout-design] What is a "small layout"
?
While we explore this subject I'd like to point out that "small" is as seen by the beholder.? If I can take a layout on a bus in the city or check it as luggage on an airplane flight I might call it "small" for my purposes.? OTOH if I'm
the owner of a construction crane rigging business with a nice big airconditioned shop building my "small" layout would likely be defined by what my equipment can easily move without too big a crew or permits from the local cops.
I kinda like the 24x48 module size having once gotten started in that direction in hopes of participating with a local module group.? Now the nature of modules is that they need to be of somewhat more robust construction than a single "pack and hand carry"
in a portable case display module.? But these types share one common problem.? They're subject to handling shocks and vibrations that are a good bit stronger than what they will experience in the train room.? A very small layout like a pizza size has the benefit
overy low mass and relatively high stiffness of its litttle parts.? Beyond that some amount of vibtation/shock isolation (blocks of foam) around the layout in its carrying box is easier to do.
If some of you out there have built your own carrying cases or found some commercially available container that works real well how about starting a thread here on carrying cases and tell us about it.
EdW
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Re: What is a "small layout"
I would dispute the use of quarter points. Theoretically this gives no moment mid span which increases the moments over the supports relative to shorter overhangs. It also increases the risk of someone leaning or falling
onto the end of the layout and tipping it up.
The optimum length from the end depends on whether you design for the dead load - known as a Uniformly Distributed Load - for the risk of the accidental load which would be a point load at mid span or end of overhang.
The UDL formulae are Wl^2/2 for the overhang and WL^2/8 - the overhang moments where l is the overhang length and L the span length. For point loads it's Wl and WL/4.
This gives optimi of c1/5 points for UDL and 1/6 points for the point loads, remembering that the accidental loads are very unlikely to occur at the end and middle simultaneously.
Personally I'd go for the 1/6 point.
Archie
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PS: Locating the legs ? of the module length in from each end results in the best distribution of bending forces on the module, as those structural engineers following
this group will attest to. Locating legs at the ends creates the worst distribution of forces.
?
?
Ed,
Our modular group has been using “Ultra-light” modules for the past fifteen years. (See
“” in
?p.?36? and “” in ?p.?89.) Most of these modules use 1 x 1 mortised and glued oak framing topped by 1” foam insulation board. I bundle four 48” long sections together hardboard ends
connecting all four and with a trap around the middle with a handle I can easily carry all four (16 feet of modules) with one hand. (each module is typically 5 lbs. in weight.) One key is that the legs are NOT rigidly attached to the modules. Rigidly attaching
legs to modules imposes a lot of stress on the module frame. Our modules have a cross piece located 12” in from each end. The legs are a standardized, lightweight folding system of 1x2 Poplar and ?” dowel with the tops of the legs notched to fit the 1x cross
frames, and the modules simply sit on top of these legs. (I first read of simply setting modules on supports in one of Ian Rice’s layout plan books.) These modules have been to hundreds of train shows, one even traveling to Warwick Rhode Island for the National
Narrow Gauge Convention.
My more recent modules have used 1 x 2 Poplar framing topped with ?” black foam-core board. This has proven even more rigid than our older modules.
Tom K.
?
From:
[email protected] <[email protected]>
On Behalf Of Ed Weldon
Sent: Wednesday, October 3, 2018 11:06 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [small-layout-design] What is a "small layout"
?
While we explore this subject I'd like to point out that "small" is as seen by the beholder.? If I can take a layout on a bus in the city or check it as luggage on an airplane flight I might call it "small" for my purposes.? OTOH if I'm
the owner of a construction crane rigging business with a nice big airconditioned shop building my "small" layout would likely be defined by what my equipment can easily move without too big a crew or permits from the local cops.
I kinda like the 24x48 module size having once gotten started in that direction in hopes of participating with a local module group.? Now the nature of modules is that they need to be of somewhat more robust construction than a single "pack and hand carry"
in a portable case display module.? But these types share one common problem.? They're subject to handling shocks and vibrations that are a good bit stronger than what they will experience in the train room.? A very small layout like a pizza size has the benefit
overy low mass and relatively high stiffness of its litttle parts.? Beyond that some amount of vibtation/shock isolation (blocks of foam) around the layout in its carrying box is easier to do.
If some of you out there have built your own carrying cases or found some commercially available container that works real well how about starting a thread here on carrying cases and tell us about it.
EdW
|
Re: What is a "small layout"
PS: Locating the legs ? of the module length in from each end results in the best distribution of bending forces on the module, as those structural engineers following this group will attest to. Locating legs at the ends creates the worst distribution of forces. ?
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From: [email protected] < [email protected]> On Behalf Of Thomas Knapp Sent: Thursday, October 4, 2018 11:45 AM To: [email protected]Cc: thomasknapp@... Subject: Re: [small-layout-design] What is a "small layout" ? Ed, Our modular group has been using “Ultra-light” modules for the past fifteen years. (See “” in ?p.?36? and “” in ?p.?89.) Most of these modules use 1 x 1 mortised and glued oak framing topped by 1” foam insulation board. I bundle four 48” long sections together hardboard ends connecting all four and with a trap around the middle with a handle I can easily carry all four (16 feet of modules) with one hand. (each module is typically 5 lbs. in weight.) One key is that the legs are NOT rigidly attached to the modules. Rigidly attaching legs to modules imposes a lot of stress on the module frame. Our modules have a cross piece located 12” in from each end. The legs are a standardized, lightweight folding system of 1x2 Poplar and ?” dowel with the tops of the legs notched to fit the 1x cross frames, and the modules simply sit on top of these legs. (I first read of simply setting modules on supports in one of Ian Rice’s layout plan books.) These modules have been to hundreds of train shows, one even traveling to Warwick Rhode Island for the National Narrow Gauge Convention. My more recent modules have used 1 x 2 Poplar framing topped with ?” black foam-core board. This has proven even more rigid than our older modules. Tom K. ? From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Ed Weldon
Sent: Wednesday, October 3, 2018 11:06 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [small-layout-design] What is a "small layout" ? While we explore this subject I'd like to point out that "small" is as seen by the beholder.? If I can take a layout on a bus in the city or check it as luggage on an airplane flight I might call it "small" for my purposes.? OTOH if I'm the owner of a construction crane rigging business with a nice big airconditioned shop building my "small" layout would likely be defined by what my equipment can easily move without too big a crew or permits from the local cops.
I kinda like the 24x48 module size having once gotten started in that direction in hopes of participating with a local module group.? Now the nature of modules is that they need to be of somewhat more robust construction than a single "pack and hand carry" in a portable case display module.? But these types share one common problem.? They're subject to handling shocks and vibrations that are a good bit stronger than what they will experience in the train room.? A very small layout like a pizza size has the benefit overy low mass and relatively high stiffness of its litttle parts.? Beyond that some amount of vibtation/shock isolation (blocks of foam) around the layout in its carrying box is easier to do.
If some of you out there have built your own carrying cases or found some commercially available container that works real well how about starting a thread here on carrying cases and tell us about it.
EdW
|
Re: What is a "small layout"
Ed, Our modular group has been using “Ultra-light” modules for the past fifteen years. (See “” in ?p.?36? and “” in ?p.?89.) Most of these modules use 1 x 1 mortised and glued oak framing topped by 1” foam insulation board. I bundle four 48” long sections together hardboard ends connecting all four and with a trap around the middle with a handle I can easily carry all four (16 feet of modules) with one hand. (each module is typically 5 lbs. in weight.) One key is that the legs are NOT rigidly attached to the modules. Rigidly attaching legs to modules imposes a lot of stress on the module frame. Our modules have a cross piece located 12” in from each end. The legs are a standardized, lightweight folding system of 1x2 Poplar and ?” dowel with the tops of the legs notched to fit the 1x cross frames, and the modules simply sit on top of these legs. (I first read of simply setting modules on supports in one of Ian Rice’s layout plan books.) These modules have been to hundreds of train shows, one even traveling to Warwick Rhode Island for the National Narrow Gauge Convention. My more recent modules have used 1 x 2 Poplar framing topped with ?” black foam-core board. This has proven even more rigid than our older modules. Tom K. ?
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From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Ed Weldon
Sent: Wednesday, October 3, 2018 11:06 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [small-layout-design] What is a "small layout" ? While we explore this subject I'd like to point out that "small" is as seen by the beholder.? If I can take a layout on a bus in the city or check it as luggage on an airplane flight I might call it "small" for my purposes.? OTOH if I'm the owner of a construction crane rigging business with a nice big airconditioned shop building my "small" layout would likely be defined by what my equipment can easily move without too big a crew or permits from the local cops.
I kinda like the 24x48 module size having once gotten started in that direction in hopes of participating with a local module group.? Now the nature of modules is that they need to be of somewhat more robust construction than a single "pack and hand carry" in a portable case display module.? But these types share one common problem.? They're subject to handling shocks and vibrations that are a good bit stronger than what they will experience in the train room.? A very small layout like a pizza size has the benefit overy low mass and relatively high stiffness of its litttle parts.? Beyond that some amount of vibtation/shock isolation (blocks of foam) around the layout in its carrying box is easier to do.
If some of you out there have built your own carrying cases or found some commercially available container that works real well how about starting a thread here on carrying cases and tell us about it.
EdW
|
Re: ADMIN Transfers Appear To Have Been Successful
Absolutely brilliant change!
Thank you!
Christopher
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Re: What is a "small layout"
While we explore this subject I'd like to point out that "small" is as seen by the beholder.? If I can take a layout on a bus in the city or check it as luggage on an airplane flight I might call it "small" for my purposes.? OTOH if I'm the owner of a construction crane rigging business with a nice big airconditioned shop building my "small" layout would likely be defined by what my equipment can easily move without too big a crew or permits from the local cops.
I kinda like the 24x48 module size having once gotten started in that direction in hopes of participating with a local module group.? Now the nature of modules is that they need to be of somewhat more robust construction than a single "pack and hand carry" in a portable case display module.? But these types share one common problem.? They're subject to handling shocks and vibrations that are a good bit stronger than what they will experience in the train room.? A very small layout like a pizza size has the benefit overy low mass and relatively high stiffness of its litttle parts.? Beyond that some amount of vibtation/shock isolation (blocks of foam) around the layout in its carrying box is easier to do.
If some of you out there have built your own carrying cases or found some commercially available container that works real well how about starting a thread here on carrying cases and tell us about it.
EdW
|
Re: Ideas for a photo layout
Oops, I spoke too soon - trying to do too many things.? Modules brought to a location to be assembled into a larger railroad have their own legs and standard size.? N-Trak was first, and then came the 24x48 HO module standards introduced by Bob Watson.? Check the standards for your scale for interchangeability.
Max
?
On October 3, 2018 at 2:14 PM Max <msarazin@...> wrote:
?? I?cut 3 modules 32x48 from 1 sheet of plywood which I framed and?put together to form an easy to transport?4x8 foot table supported on 2 rails with legs and diagonals.? This lightweight?table support frame can be setup and broken down in minutes with Carriage Bolts and Washers under the Wingnuts.? Although my photo shows a larger version I built, you would want a 2x3 foot support structure for such a small module.
Max on Cape Cod ?
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Re: Ideas for a photo layout
On October 3, 2018 at 12:12 PM dcw_rr <dcw_rr@...> wrote:
?? Having dome a lot of work with Ntrak modules, I would say 30" by 60" or
3' x 4' are reasonable to carry and will fit in almost any hatchback, minivan, etc.
-ArtP ?
?? I?cut 3 modules 32x48 from 1 sheet of plywood which I framed and?put together to form an easy to transport?4x8 foot table supported on 2 rails with legs and diagonals.? This lightweight?table support frame can be setup and broken down in minutes with Carriage Bolts and Washers under the Wingnuts.? Although my photo shows a larger version I built, you would want a 2x3 foot support structure for such a small module.
Max on Cape Cod
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What is a "small layout" (was RE: [small-layout-design] Ideas for a photo layout)
Art,
Interestingly (at least to me) is that when Jim Fitzgerald and Ben Davis were first forming NTRAK in the early 1970's, their criteria for sizing the typical module was a requirement it had to fit in the back seat of a VW bug - hence the 24" x 48" size. And 24" x 48" is also a good fit for the less-plebian Lincoln Town Car! I think the "back-seat-test" is still a good criteria for defining a "small layout".
Tom K,
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-----Original Message----- From: [email protected] < [email protected]> On Behalf Of dcw_rr Sent: Wednesday, October 3, 2018 9:12 AM To: [email protected]Subject: Re: [small-layout-design] Ideas for a photo layout Having dome a lot of work with Ntrak modules, I would say 30" by 60" or 3' x 4' are reasonable to carry and will fit in almost any hatchback/minivan/SUV/crossover. This size reange gives plenty of room for several scenes in N scale I had a module set consisting of three 30" x 48" units that stacked for transport- very lightweight construction, but bulky. Legs can be folding or removable for transport, or set up to sit on a table. As for scenic dividers, I might lean toward high scenery in the middle - grove of trees, cliff, bridge or row of buildings - rather than a backdrop down the center. Backdrop could be movable for photo purposes. Are you leaning more towards rural, industrial, small town, city, logging/mining, dockside, or some mix of these? -ArtP
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Re: Ideas for a photo layout
Having dome a lot of work with Ntrak modules, I would say 30" by 60" or 3' x 4' are reasonable to carry and will fit in almost any hatchback/minivan/SUV/crossover. This size reange gives plenty of room for several scenes in N scale
I had a module set consisting of three 30" x 48" units that stacked for transport- very lightweight construction, but bulky. Legs can be folding or removable for transport, or set up to sit on a table.
As for scenic dividers, I might lean toward high scenery in the middle - grove of trees, cliff, bridge or row of buildings - rather than a backdrop down the center.? Backdrop could be movable for photo purposes.
Are you leaning more towards rural, industrial, small town, city, logging/mining, dockside, or some mix of these?
-ArtP
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ADMIN Transfers Appear To Have Been Successful
At this time most of the SLD related groups have been successfully transfered over to groups.io.? I am still waiting to get SLDFiles moved and some files from the original small layout design group did not get transferred and I am waiting on that. Groups.io will function in the same fashion as yahoo groups but is more dependable wrt to accessing information.? There are some other options that I am looking at activating but I need to take a longer look at them first. Due to restrictions in file space, 4 separate groups had been set up for the sharing of design files and photos. /g/sldfiles?? (still waiting on transfer) /g/sldfiles2 /g/sldfiles3Due to space restrictions on groups.io photos from the Small Layout Design yahoo group are located at the following /g/small-layout-design-photosThe above groups are for files and photos only, i.e. no messages allowed.? Please continue to post on this main group. Take a look around and become familiar with our new home and let me know what thoughts you have. Bruce Wilson Group Owner
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Re: Ideas for a photo layout
Not necessarily just large layouts. ?I built a 4x6 HO layout with a rather short yard ending under a plate girder highway bridge with a 4x6 inch mirror beneath.? Didn't look like a train backing into cars though, it looked like 2 trains backing into each other, so keep the mirror small, and make sure mirrors are placed where you can't see your face in them.
Max on Cape Cod
?
On October 3, 2018 at 5:01 AM J?rn Pachl <jrnp25152@...> wrote: I own the great book on John Allen's famous layout. He successfully applied several techniques to extend the view on a very large layout. This includes the use of mirrors. Some of these principles were later adopted by George Sellios. However, these techniques rather work for very big layouts.
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Re: Ideas for a photo layout
@Len
I own the great book on John Allen's famous layout. He successfully
applied several techniques to extend the view on a very large layout.
This includes the use of mirrors. Some of these principles were later
adopted by George Sellios. However, these techniques rather work for
very big layouts.
@Bill
In my sense, small does not just mean portable but 'very small', i.e.,
rather micro layouts as promoted by Carl Arendt.
@Charles
I know these tricks of using backdrops as dividers to create
completely separated scenes on the the same layout. However, that's
not what I had in mind. For completely separated scenes, I would
simply build separate dioramas. My objective is to have one scene that
can by viewed at different angles, so I can use the same scene for
very different photo settings. See the attached draft of a very small
scene. Maybe a cramped industrial district or something like that. A
goog example in a much bigger scale are the photo dioramas of
Guilherme Holtz, see You
will have to look very hard to see that most of the photos were taken
on the same diorama.
Joern
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I suspect that there are a number of designs with a double slip.?
One is Box Street yard -??and Wyter's Ed. Supplies on the same page.
There is also a design possibly by Iain Rice using a double slip and a three way point, but I cannot find it on the net.?
I hope that helps
Tim
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Re: Transferring Underway
? I never use DCC, I'm from the old school.? This has 2 separate main lines, each connected to a single track section in turn?via an s.p.d.t. switch so it?can be used by?either the inner or outer loop for a Meet or for Passing. ? It could also be used with a?single power pack connected to the single track section using the s.p.d.t. switch to attach the inner or the outer loop to run one train at a time for solo operation.
? I built this using 3-rail Lionel to avoid the polarity problem in the reverse loop and not needing a d.p.d.t. switch for polarity.
Max on Cape Cod
On October 2, 2018 at 4:14 PM "David Pye via Groups.Io" <rednmchile@...> wrote:?
Is this DCC? And, what is the plan for wiring the reverse loop? Just curious. Is this a schematic, or actually two concentric circles (more or less)? --Dave
? On Oct 2, 2018 7:02 am "Max Sarazin"?<msarazin@...>?wrote:?
Here's a small track?plan for 2 trains provides Passing, Meets, reversing train, Backing move, and Route Switching.
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Re: Ideas for a photo layout
Bill - I agree with you on what is a small layout.? To me a small layout is one you can pretty much painlessly move from home to an event site and back home again.? It should fit in a reasonable size family vehicle or small enclosed trailer that can be easily moved by one person into a small parking space. Often anything wider than 48 inches or longer than 78 inches or heavier than 50-60 pounds creates moving problems (like getting through doorways) that can take the fun out of a display project.? 48 x 78 is still practical to move on a hand truck as long as it is designed to be tilted up to vertical without coming apart.? At 60# weight removable legs or collapsible saw horses are very practical.
Note, this prescription will have you bringing a tape measure along if you plan to buy a family vehicle.? Note that if you live in a place with only one parking space and prefer a smaller economical car a very light aluminum enclosed trailer can be a good investment and may easily fit sideways behind your car in an apartment parking space.? Hence the importance of hand moving it around. One may need a willing landlord to allow the necessary anchor point to secure the trailer from theft. ........... EdW
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Re: Transferring Underway
Is this DCC? And, what is the plan for wiring the reverse loop? Just curious. Is this a schematic, or actually two concentric circles (more or less)? --Dave
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-----Original Message----- From: Max <msarazin@...> To: small-layout-design < [email protected]>; Gene Kruger <Genetk44@...> Sent: Tue, Oct 2, 2018 7:02 am Subject: Re: [small-layout-design] Transferring Underway
Here's small trackplan for 2 trains provides Passing, Meets, reversing train, Backing move, and Route switching.
Max on Cape Cod
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PS on Build-A-Dream photo album
I resized all the photos to 72ppi and a maximum dimension of 960 pixels before uploading to the album in the “Photos” section. This is a good viewable size and keeps file sizes small. Tom K. ? ?
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Re: N scale layout 3'x6' double track over and under
Paul, The NMRA had a program called “Build A Dream” a couple of years ago where members built small layouts in public places as a demonstration and encouragement to enter the hobby. A couple of local (Coast Division) members built an HO layout at a Home Depot. The next year, they did it again, only in N Scale, using building insulation forma for the entire layout, and completing different stages of the work as “clinics” at our quarterly NMRA meetings. The track was Kato Unitrak, and the track plan was modified from Kato’s “World’s Greatest Hobby” track plan ( ). I have uploaded photos of the layout and the track plan to the Photos section in an album titled “Build-a-Dream Layout 2017”. This layout has plenty of running possibilities. If running two trains totally independently is a must, the track plan could probably be divided into a “upper” and “lower” route. There may be other plans on the Kato site which would lend themselves to this kind of separation as well. You will notice the layout also has a scenic dividing element (mountain ridge) running down the middle which may be a solution to another posted message today. Tom K. ?
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From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Paul Greenberg
Sent: Monday, October 1, 2018 9:19 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [small-layout-design] N scale layout 3'x6' double track over and under ? Hello All.
My brother in law wants an N scale layout able to run 2 trains. I saw a layout like I described
but can't remember where it came from. Anyone have any ideas or plans? Can be longer.
Thanks. Paul Greenberg in Fl.
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Thanks for making the change. I look forward to uploading some track plans and photos. Tom K. ?
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Thomas Knapp
