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Testing a WACOM WP-678-R2 with a Nanovna-F


 

Gentlemen,?
?
What is the "Proper" way to tune a 443mhz bpbr Wacom ??
S11 with a 50 ohm load at the antenna port? or S21? ?
I can "see"? ( and tune ) the notch on S11 , but the notch is symmetrical.
The capacitor doesn't seem to "band pass"? ?
( at least on S11 ).? ? ?the capacitor does affect the notch so it is in circuit.
Thanks in Advance?
Don W4DNR
?
?
? ? ?


 

The band pass is tuned by the shaft. The capacitor tunes the notch only..

I use a spectrum analyzer and service monitor to tune my Wacoms, DBs, TXRX, etc..Kit Parsons at Wacom suggested a signal generator , some 3db pads, a 50 ohm load and a receiver tunable to the two frequencies in question.. That worked for me fine back in the 1980s.. now spectrum analyzer/ service monitor does it for me in less than 30 minutes

Chris WB5ITT?

On Wed, Mar 19, 2025, 6:47 PM Don Roden via <donroden=[email protected]> wrote:
Gentlemen,?
?
What is the "Proper" way to tune a 443mhz bpbr Wacom ??
S11 with a 50 ohm load at the antenna port? or S21? ?
I can "see"? ( and tune ) the notch on S11 , but the notch is symmetrical.
The capacitor doesn't seem to "band pass"? ?
( at least on S11 ).? ? ?the capacitor does affect the notch so it is in circuit.
Thanks in Advance?
Don W4DNR
?
?
? ? ?


 

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In ham radio - it's possible to have the transmitter appear on either side of the receiver.? With duplexers that provide symmetrical performance - duplexer ports marked "Transmit" and "Receive" or "TX" and "RX" are meaningless.? Mark the duplexer's radio ports "LPHR" & "HPLR".? This will indicate which radio port provides Low Pass High Reject & High Pass Low Reject frequency responses.? When tuning the duplexer - it will be logical when referencing these marks.? I actually mark each cavity so it's obvious.

Calibrate the VNA with a quality O-S-L.? Use quality cables between the VNA and device under test.? Remove the duplexer harness cables observing where they came from (mark them - so you can put them back).? Connect the VNA's ports to the two connectors of each cavity.? If this is a really old WP-678, the cavities have one connector and a F-M-F Tee.

Tune each cavity individually for best return loss at the pass frequency using the threaded rod.? Maintain the pass to reject spacing (5.0MHz) using the capacitor adjustment.? For the most part the notch frequency (spacing) will track with the pass frequency adjustment - but check it to make sure.? Tune all four cavities that way - two for HPLR and two for LPHR.?

Then, reconnect the harness cables.? Terminate one radio port with a quality (high return loss) load - and reconnect the VNA to the other radio port and antenna port.? Sweep S11 to see the return loss with the two cavities connected together.? Note the result.? You may have a situation where the return loss dips do not fall on top of one another.? You may see one dip, or you may see two dips that no matter what you do, you can't make them align over one another. ?This is not necessarily a bad thing.? For now, do NOT re-peak the cavities in an attempt to make the S11 dips fall on top of one another.? There's a reason for this that I'll elaborate on if you want me to.? If you screwed with the tuning and the S11 dips don't align, go back and re-tune the cavities individually - and don't re-peak after re-cabling.

Now - measure the insertion loss, and note it.? Also, see if the pass response peak (S21) coincides with the return loss dip.? If the return loss dip is not one dip, but two dips, see is the pass frequency is in the center of the return loss response.? Often times the bottom of the return loss response looks like a smoothed W.? On this duplexer - it will likely be one dip.? To put this another way - the frequency you tuned for best return loss should also have the lowest insertion loss - and those should occur at the same frequency.? Concurrent best return loss and lowest insertion loss at the pass frequency is usually the case with UHF duplexers that have a 5 MHz pass to notch spacing.

If the insertion loss and return loss measurements meet or exceed , lock the pass adjustments with the locking nuts (carefully).? Check the opposite side - remembering to swap the load to the other radio port.? The totally cabled insertion loss should be 1.2dB, and the return loss should be -18dB or more on each leg of this WACOM duplexer.? On earlier models - the insertion loss might be a little higher, like 1.4dB or so.

Now - using something else (SA/TG), tune the notches for greatest rejection at the notch frequency - remembering to also terminate the opposite radio port with a quality load.? Do this for both sides.? You can't use your NanoVNA because it doesn't provide enough dynamic range to see the bottoms of the notches.? This duplexer commonly provides 95dB or slightly more notch depth at 5 MHz pass to notch frequency spacing.? If you don't have access to a SA-TG - use a signal generator and receiver to tune the notches.

Clear as mud?? Ask questions....

Kevin W3KKC

On 3/19/2025 7:47 PM, Don Roden wrote:

Gentlemen,?
?
What is the "Proper" way to tune a 443mhz bpbr Wacom ??
S11 with a 50 ohm load at the antenna port? or S21? ?
I can "see"? ( and tune ) the notch on S11 , but the notch is symmetrical.
The capacitor doesn't seem to "band pass"? ?
( at least on S11 ).? ? ?the capacitor does affect the notch so it is in circuit.
Thanks in Advance?
Don W4DNR
?
?
? ? ?


 

Hello,
What would a 3 dB pad be?
?
?
On Wed, Mar 19, 2025 at 05:16 PM, Chris Boone WB5ITT wrote:

3db pads


 

Hello, Chris Boone WB5ITT!
?
Is the service monitor better than a NANO VNA for cavity tuning?
?
?
Na quarta-feira, 19 de mar?o de 2025 às 17h16, Chris Boone WB5ITT escreveu:

monitor de servi?o


 

On Mar 20, 2025, at 10:26?PM, pu5aom.t via groups.io <pu5aom.t@...> wrote:

?
Hello,
What would a 3 dB pad be?
<— 3dB fixed attenuator.


 

Thanks Kevin,
This was a diplexer that was on my 443 repeater.? ?I bought the repeater/diplexer as a package years ago.
It always had a 25% reflected out of the transmitter.? ? I had been looking at some broadcast FM filters with notches, and before I put the Nanovna up, I thought this would be a good time to look at the WACOM.? The S11 looked horrible.. not at all as I expected.? ?I purchased the repeater years before the Nanovna was introduced.
?
I found that the capacitors? were on the wrong frequency side of the notch? ( all these years ) .... After I saw the effects of the capacitor, it took a few back and fourths to get the null and the broad peak separated by 5Mhz .? ?By the way, the Nanovna-F was calibrated nuts-on on both 443Mhz and 448Mhz.? ? -1.35 and -21.25? were the single cavity readings.
Combined, there was some minor tweaking that had both notches aligned and both rejects aligned.? ? I tightened everything up and the notches stayed on frequency.
Back in-line and zero reflected on the transmitter. Great !!? ?I'm looking forward to seeing a much improved range on the repeater.? ? Thanks Again Kevin
Don W4DNR? ? WA4NPL/R? 443Mhz


 

Don't conflate "diplexer" (those solid metal box fixed-filters that let you put a dualband radio with separate VHF/UHF ports to a single dualband antenna or vice-versa) with a "duplexer" (what you're trying to tune for your repeater)


 

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You're welcome, Don.

One clarification....
The WACOM series of duplexers generally were provided with variable capacitors with enough range to allow the filter to be configured with the notch either above or below the pass frequency.? In other words - each side of the duplexer can be configured for LPHR or HPLR.

One comment....
1.35 dB insertion loss per cavity seems suspect.? I would have expected it to be 0.5 dB, resulting in a total cabled loss of around 1.4 dB or less.? You didn't mention what your total cabled parameters ended up being - so you may want to let us know.

Kevin W3KKC

On 3/20/2025 11:02 PM, Don Roden wrote:

Thanks Kevin,
This was a diplexer that was on my 443 repeater.? ?I bought the repeater/diplexer as a package years ago.
It always had a 25% reflected out of the transmitter.? ? I had been looking at some broadcast FM filters with notches, and before I put the Nanovna up, I thought this would be a good time to look at the WACOM.? The S11 looked horrible.. not at all as I expected.? ?I purchased the repeater years before the Nanovna was introduced.
?
I found that the capacitors? were on the wrong frequency side of the notch? ( all these years ) .... After I saw the effects of the capacitor, it took a few back and fourths to get the null and the broad peak separated by 5Mhz .? ?By the way, the Nanovna-F was calibrated nuts-on on both 443Mhz and 448Mhz.? ? -1.35 and -21.25? were the single cavity readings.
Combined, there was some minor tweaking that had both notches aligned and both rejects aligned.? ? I tightened everything up and the notches stayed on frequency.
Back in-line and zero reflected on the transmitter. Great !!? ?I'm looking forward to seeing a much improved range on the repeater.? ? Thanks Again Kevin
Don W4DNR? ? WA4NPL/R? 443Mhz


 

If your checking through loss of the pass and the notch is accidently too close in frequency it will add more insertion loss. Just make sure the notch is set at the correct offset before measuring overall insertion loss.?


 

Thank you!!!

Mick - W7CAT

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob KK6RQ via groups.io"
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, March 21, 2025 03:46:42 AM
Subject: Re: [repeater-builder] Testing a WACOM WP-678-R2 with a Nanovna-F

Don't conflate "diplexer" (those solid metal box fixed-filters that
let you put a dualband radio with separate VHF/UHF ports to a single dualband antenna or vice-versa) with a "duplexer" (what you're trying to tune for your repeater)




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