|
What level of math course would I need to study to learn how to comprehend the equations presented in
design books like Introduction to Radio Frequency Design?? by? W7ZOI.
I have been tinkering with circuits from these books for 50 years but never really learned what is in the math.
There are all sorts of online math course now so.....
What level of math class would teach this gobbledygoop?
and
Do any of you? ACTUALLY use this level of math to build radios or is the math only used by
the guys designing the transistors????
73 Rob KB3BYT
|
OK...I'll start a fire here...
I believe that empirical RF designs will outperform
mathematically designed RF hardware every time.
Let the flame war begin :)
Seriously, I personally do not go beyond using frequency
determining math to calculate resonance
and transistor bias resistors using ohms law and 0.6? transistor
voltage drops.
Seems I always end up adjusting circuit values after what the
math tells me to do.
YMMV...as usual.
-Diz (no offense to any math geniuses out there...)
On 12/9/19 7:17 AM, Rob via Groups.Io
wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
What level of math course would I need to study to learn how to
comprehend the equations presented in
design books like Introduction to Radio Frequency Design?? by?
W7ZOI.
I have been tinkering with circuits from these books for 50 years
but never really learned what is in the math.
There are all sorts of online math course now so.....
What level of math class would teach this gobbledygoop?
and
Do any of you? ACTUALLY use this level of math to build radios or
is the math only used by
the guys designing the transistors????
73 Rob KB3BYT
|
I agree with Diz on empirical design.? Although I find that collage?algebra** 101?can be most?useful.? Also some high school trig and calculus.? That so when you are reading a paper about some?basic?design, you have an idea what the symbols mean and what they are doing...8^)
Otherwise, there is a lot of good work out there that you can integrate ?into your project. And the more you do the better you get at it.
**At least 8th grade Algebra as I learned it c. 1950s.??Math they are teaching 5th graders now overwhelms me!
--
Chuck, W5USJ (ex K2OFN)
Point, Rains Co, TX? EM22cv
|
Rob, Start with college-level algebra. My professor called algebra "the language of mathematics".? Then, Calculus (1, 2 and 3) along with engineering level Physics (physics with calculus).? Then Differential equations. Then semiconductor physics and electronic materials. Then you'll be there.
Or... you could use the empirical?methods which are covered thoroughly?in Wes's EMRFD book.
Mike M KU4QO
What level of math course would I need to study to learn how to comprehend the equations presented in
design books like Introduction to Radio Frequency Design?? by? W7ZOI.
I have been tinkering with circuits from these books for 50 years but never really learned what is in the math.
There are all sorts of online math course now so.....
What level of math class would teach this gobbledygoop?
and
Do any of you? ACTUALLY use this level of math to build radios or is the math only used by
the guys designing the transistors????
73 Rob KB3BYT
|
It all depends on how deep you want to go.
For example, most radio amateurs would evaluate an antenna system by measuring the SWR.
But you won't really understand it unless you embrace the notion of a complex impedance,
and make use of those dim memories of sqrt(-1) from your high school algebra class.?
Experimental Methods in RF Design (EMRFD) is probably the book you want.
Anything that fails to go that deep, you will have a hard time cooking up
new designs that actually work well.? Mostly patching together pieces of stuff
that other people have published.
You will need a whole lot of time, as it's a thick read with lots of new concepts.
Some of those pages will take a day of fiddling with before it really sinks in.
And maybe access to a forum somewhere to ask the inevitable questions.
It's got plenty of math in there, relative to the typical QST article.
But nothing I didn't see in a high school algebra class.
I almost never did use calculus in my 40 yr career as an EE.
Some engineers wind up in a job where they use it every day.
Figuring out calculus does give you a tool for better understanding the world,
especially the world of electronics.?
For example, how a capacitor charges up over time.
So useful even if you don't actually *use* it.
Introduction to Radio Frequency design (by the same author) is a good taste
of what you will run into if you decide to get a degree in Electrical Engineering.
What you do coming out of school with an EE degree is wide open.
Could be working on a better generator for Bonneville Dam.
Could be digital design with boards full of FPGA's and mostly writing VHDL.
Analog design (perhaps a radio), mostly reading ap notes from chip manufacturers
on their hot new parts, trying out your design in a simulator on a computer.
Could be getting the recipe just right for a silicon fab line.
That last one would require intimate knowledge of the Ebers-Moll model.
For the second to the last, reading EMRFD thoroughly would get you most of the way there.
Jerry, KE7ER
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Mon, Dec 9, 2019 at 05:40 AM, Michael Maiorana wrote:
Rob,
Start with college-level algebra. My professor called algebra "the language of mathematics".?
Then, Calculus (1, 2 and 3) along with engineering level Physics (physics with calculus).?
Then Differential equations.
Then semiconductor physics and electronic materials.
Then you'll be there.
?
Or... you could use the empirical?methods which are covered thoroughly?in Wes's EMRFD book.
?
Mike M
KU4QO
|
You will find that there are online calculators or models you can use for most everything you?might want to do.? The tougher issue is to understand the how and why of electronics.? On your own, that will take many years to learn.? Most of the folks in this group are experts in their own areas, but will willingly tell you they are still learning.? So, don't worry about the math or the hairy technological details, just jump in and enjoy.? Dale
On Mon, Dec 9, 2019 at 8:55 AM Jerry Gaffke via Groups.Io <jgaffke= [email protected]> wrote: It all depends on how deep you want to go.
For example, most radio amateurs would evaluate an antenna system by measuring the SWR.
But you won't really understand it unless you embrace the notion of a complex impedance,
and make use of those dim memories of sqrt(-1) from your high school algebra class.?
Experimental Methods in RF Design (EMRFD) is probably the book you want.
Anything that fails to go that deep, you will have a hard time cooking up
new designs that actually work well.? Mostly patching together pieces of stuff
that other people have published.
You will need a whole lot of time, as it's a thick read with lots of new concepts.
Some of those pages will take a day of fiddling with before it really sinks in.
And maybe access to a forum somewhere to ask the inevitable questions.
It's got plenty of math in there, relative to the typical QST article.
But nothing I didn't see in a high school algebra class.
I almost never did use calculus in my 40 yr career as an EE.
Some engineers wind up in a job where they use it every day.
Figuring out calculus does give you a tool for better understanding the world,
especially the world of electronics.?
For example, how a capacitor charges up over time.
So useful even if you don't actually *use* it.
Introduction to Radio Frequency design (by the same author) is a good taste
of what you will run into if you decide to get a degree in Electrical Engineering.
What you do coming out of school with an EE degree is wide open.
Could be working on a better generator for Bonneville Dam.
Could be digital design with boards full of FPGA's and mostly writing VHDL.
Analog design (perhaps a radio), mostly reading ap notes from chip manufacturers
on their hot new parts, trying out your design in a simulator on a computer.
Could be getting the recipe just right for a silicon fab line.
That last one would require intimate knowledge of the Ebers-Moll model.
For the second to the last, reading EMRFD thoroughly would get you most of the way there.
Jerry, KE7ER
On Mon, Dec 9, 2019 at 05:40 AM, Michael Maiorana wrote:
Rob,
Start with college-level algebra. My professor called algebra "the language of mathematics".?
Then, Calculus (1, 2 and 3) along with engineering level Physics (physics with calculus).?
Then Differential equations.
Then semiconductor physics and electronic materials.
Then you'll be there.
?
Or... you could use the empirical?methods which are covered thoroughly?in Wes's EMRFD book.
?
Mike M
KU4QO
|
This reminds me of the question I asked in the old group regarding an oscilloscope. I wondered if it was possible to homebrew?a sideband transmitter without one, and the answer was "definitely!" It turns out that even the experienced folks tune with not much else than another transceiver. Oh, ok! Sounds good to me lol.?
I think the overall attitude in the homebrew world gravitates to "learn by doing" no "learn by learning" and I'm cool with that.?
On the other hand, if I've misunderstood misrepresented something in that statement, please accept my apologies and feel free to tell me to shaddup :p? ?
You will find that there are online calculators or models you can use for most everything you?might want to do.? The tougher issue is to understand the how and why of electronics.? On your own, that will take many years to learn.? Most of the folks in this group are experts in their own areas, but will willingly tell you they are still learning.? So, don't worry about the math or the hairy technological details, just jump in and enjoy.? Dale
On Mon, Dec 9, 2019 at 8:55 AM Jerry Gaffke via Groups.Io <jgaffke= [email protected]> wrote: It all depends on how deep you want to go.
For example, most radio amateurs would evaluate an antenna system by measuring the SWR.
But you won't really understand it unless you embrace the notion of a complex impedance,
and make use of those dim memories of sqrt(-1) from your high school algebra class.?
Experimental Methods in RF Design (EMRFD) is probably the book you want.
Anything that fails to go that deep, you will have a hard time cooking up
new designs that actually work well.? Mostly patching together pieces of stuff
that other people have published.
You will need a whole lot of time, as it's a thick read with lots of new concepts.
Some of those pages will take a day of fiddling with before it really sinks in.
And maybe access to a forum somewhere to ask the inevitable questions.
It's got plenty of math in there, relative to the typical QST article.
But nothing I didn't see in a high school algebra class.
I almost never did use calculus in my 40 yr career as an EE.
Some engineers wind up in a job where they use it every day.
Figuring out calculus does give you a tool for better understanding the world,
especially the world of electronics.?
For example, how a capacitor charges up over time.
So useful even if you don't actually *use* it.
Introduction to Radio Frequency design (by the same author) is a good taste
of what you will run into if you decide to get a degree in Electrical Engineering.
What you do coming out of school with an EE degree is wide open.
Could be working on a better generator for Bonneville Dam.
Could be digital design with boards full of FPGA's and mostly writing VHDL.
Analog design (perhaps a radio), mostly reading ap notes from chip manufacturers
on their hot new parts, trying out your design in a simulator on a computer.
Could be getting the recipe just right for a silicon fab line.
That last one would require intimate knowledge of the Ebers-Moll model.
For the second to the last, reading EMRFD thoroughly would get you most of the way there.
Jerry, KE7ER
On Mon, Dec 9, 2019 at 05:40 AM, Michael Maiorana wrote:
Rob,
Start with college-level algebra. My professor called algebra "the language of mathematics".?
Then, Calculus (1, 2 and 3) along with engineering level Physics (physics with calculus).?
Then Differential equations.
Then semiconductor physics and electronic materials.
Then you'll be there.
?
Or... you could use the empirical?methods which are covered thoroughly?in Wes's EMRFD book.
?
Mike M
KU4QO
--
-- Ryan Flowers W7RLF
https://miscdotgeek.com
|
It's one thing to build a known good design.
Quite another to design something that is fundamentally novel,
making the necessary calculations and measurements to get it performing well.
Yes, you can tinker with stuff and iterate to something that works better.
Sometimes.
But you will have much better luck if you understand what's going on.
When designing a radio there are many itradeoffs to be made.
You will need more than another transceiver to fully evaluate some new design.
Jerry, KEy7ER
?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Mon, Dec 9, 2019 at 11:02 AM, Ryan Flowers wrote:
This reminds me of the question I asked in the old group regarding an oscilloscope. I wondered if it was possible to homebrew?a sideband transmitter without one, and the answer was "definitely!" It turns out that even the experienced folks tune with not much else than another transceiver. Oh, ok! Sounds good to me lol.?
?
I think the overall attitude in the homebrew world gravitates to "learn by doing" no "learn by learning" and I'm cool with that.?
?
On the other hand, if I've misunderstood misrepresented something in that statement, please accept my apologies and feel free to tell me to shaddup :p?
?
|
About 15 years ago, I had a website appropriately called
KE6US.com. I actually reviewed both EMRFD and Intro to RF Design.?
Wes was kind enough to send me a thank you email for the reviews.
Experimental Methods in RF Design, by
Wes Hayward (W7ZOI), Rick Campbell (KK7B), Bob Larkin (W7PUA).?
Hands down, the best book on homebrew design for hams ever
published. I refer to it constantly. My copy is dog-eared and
annotated on almost every page. I have modeled a number of the
circuits in SPICE.? I have also built quite a few of them.
Includes a jam-packed CD of valuable articles and other stuff.
Published by?.
Introduction to Radio Frequency Design,
by Wes Hayward (W7ZOI). You best pour through "Introduction to
Advanced Mathematics" and "Introduction to Electronic Design"
before tackling this one. I doubt the average ham would find
this book useful. It was originally published by Prentice-Hall
as a text for the "working engineer". Wes says he wished it
was available for his "career change from electron device
physics to rf circuit design." If you're contemplating a
similar career change, I recommend this book, otherwise, you
might want to hold off. There are lots of books better suited
to even advanced hams. Published by?.
I understand that level of math. In
grad school (economics), I took most math classes with engineering
students. However, understanding the math doesn't necessarily
equip you for understanding the concepts. I am a native English
speaker, but that doesn't mean I can understand everything a
theoretical physicist or classical philosopher has to say...in
English.
So I stand by what I said at the time.
For even above average hams, stick with EMRFD. You will need high
school math at most and a very curious mind. If you can get
through everything in that book, you won't need much else for
empirical design. I wouldn't discourage seriously skimming RFD
though.
Eric KE6US
On 12/9/2019 4:17 AM, Rob via Groups.Io
wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
What level of
math course would I need to study to learn how to comprehend the
equations presented in
design books like Introduction to Radio Frequency Design?? by?
W7ZOI.
|
And while I'm at it, I'll recommend two other books:
The Art of Electronics, Horowitz and Hill. A classic
RF Circuit Design, Chris Boswick. Lots of practical design info and exercises
Eric KE6US
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 12/9/2019 4:17 AM, Rob via Groups.Io wrote: What level of math course would I need to study to learn how to comprehend the equations presented in
design books like Introduction to Radio Frequency Design?? by W7ZOI.
|
Rob,
Ouch! That's going to leave a mark!
It's a fair cop, as the Brit villains say. I went through college begging for a grade in calculus, retired two years ago and *finally* started to do some of the math I haven't used in 45 years -- even got an HP calculator and learned RPN.
Still have trouble calculating power from Vp-p, however.??
--
William, k6whp
--------------------
"Cheer up, things could get worse. So I cheered up and things got worse."
|
I am a 60 year old retired computer programmer......... with
failing vision.
I have written software for everything from tiny microcontrollers
to track satellites with DOS computers to IBM mainframes the size
of a football field.
I have written accounting software and manufacturing software and
911 systems and software for pacemakers in your chest.
and
all ..without ever spending a day in a college classroom.
and
not once....
not ever...?? did a boss ever say to me "solve for X".
In all of that lifetime of computer programming there never was
an algebra exam.
So... now... in my old age and tinkering with radio circuits I
dabble with these books
and
yes...?? Experimental Methods in RF Design is one of them here.
and
I know I don't know anything more than basic algebra.... so when
something like the EBERS-MOLL equation
is presented to me I asked the question ...what math class
teaches how to solve this equation.
?
On 12/09/2019 02:02 PM, Ryan Flowers
wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
This reminds me of the question I asked in the old
group regarding an oscilloscope. I wondered if it was possible
to homebrew?a sideband transmitter without one, and the answer
was "definitely!" It turns out that even the experienced folks
tune with not much else than another transceiver. Oh, ok! Sounds
good to me lol.?
I think the overall attitude in the homebrew world
gravitates to "learn by doing" no "learn by learning" and I'm
cool with that.?
On the other hand, if I've misunderstood misrepresented
something in that statement, please accept my apologies and
feel free to tell me to shaddup :p?
?
You
will find that there are online calculators or models you
can use for most everything you?might want to do.? The
tougher issue is to understand the how and why of
electronics.? On your own, that will take many years to
learn.? Most of the folks in this group are experts in
their own areas, but will willingly tell you they are
still learning.? So, don't worry about the math or the
hairy technological details, just jump in and enjoy.? Dale
On Mon, Dec 9, 2019 at
8:55 AM Jerry Gaffke via Groups.Io <jgaffke= [email protected]>
wrote:
It all depends on how
deep you want to go.
For example, most radio amateurs would evaluate an antenna
system by measuring the SWR.
But you won't really understand it unless you embrace the
notion of a complex impedance,
and make use of those dim memories of sqrt(-1) from your
high school algebra class.?
Experimental Methods in RF Design (EMRFD) is probably the
book you want.
Anything that fails to go that deep, you will have a hard
time cooking up
new designs that actually work well.? Mostly patching
together pieces of stuff
that other people have published.
You will need a whole lot of time, as it's a thick read
with lots of new concepts.
Some of those pages will take a day of fiddling with
before it really sinks in.
And maybe access to a forum somewhere to ask the
inevitable questions.
It's got plenty of math in there, relative to the typical
QST article.
But nothing I didn't see in a high school algebra class.
I almost never did use calculus in my 40 yr career as an
EE.
Some engineers wind up in a job where they use it every
day.
Figuring out calculus does give you a tool for better
understanding the world,
especially the world of electronics.?
For example, how a capacitor charges up over time.
So useful even if you don't actually *use* it.
Introduction to Radio Frequency design (by the same
author) is a good taste
of what you will run into if you decide to get a degree in
Electrical Engineering.
What you do coming out of school with an EE degree is wide
open.
Could be working on a better generator for Bonneville Dam.
Could be digital design with boards full of FPGA's and
mostly writing VHDL.
Analog design (perhaps a radio), mostly reading ap notes
from chip manufacturers
on their hot new parts, trying out your design in a
simulator on a computer.
Could be getting the recipe just right for a silicon fab
line.
That last one would require intimate knowledge of the
Ebers-Moll model.
For the second to the last, reading EMRFD thoroughly would
get you most of the way there.
Jerry, KE7ER
On Mon, Dec 9, 2019 at 05:40 AM, Michael Maiorana wrote:
Rob,
Start
with college-level algebra. My professor called
algebra "the language of mathematics".?
Then,
Calculus (1, 2 and 3) along with engineering level
Physics (physics with calculus).?
Then
Differential equations.
Then
semiconductor physics and electronic materials.
Then
you'll be there.
?
Or...
you could use the empirical?methods which are covered
thoroughly?in Wes's EMRFD book.
?
Mike M
KU4QO
--
--
Ryan Flowers W7RLF
|
Rob,
I would say a couple terms into a calculus sequence for that equation to lose its mystery.?
So by the end of a freshman year for an engineering student.
There is some physics there too, a math major might solve it without knowing what it means.
But you don't need to solve that equation to be good at designing a radio.
Read EMRFD.
Jerry
?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Mon, Dec 9, 2019 at 04:20 PM, Rob wrote:
what math class teaches how to solve this equation.
?
|
William,
Try this:? Vrms = 0.3535 * Vpp? then, Po = Vrms*2 / 100
That's the simplest approximation.
--
Chuck, W5USJ (ex K2OFN)
Point, Rains Co, TX? EM22cv
|
Chuck,
Thanks!
I had discovered that a long time ago and was using it in my previous message to illustrate my relative Business Administration degree ignorance of electronic theory. But, coincident with my purchase of the relatively new HP-35S (the retro/nostalgia product unleashed on the market about a decade ago), I entered that calculation and about a dozen others into the memory and am cruising blissfully away, oblivious to the underlying math.
If the batteries crap out, I am toast!
--
William, k6whp
--------------------
"Cheer up, things could get worse. So I cheered up and things got worse."
|
William,
Oooops, That should have been Vrms ?^2
I never could get comfortable with RPN.? I had one of the TI programmables.?That worked good for me for a while.? I loaned it to my son when he was working on his PhD.? He just retired from the workforce.? Still don't have it back!
What sort of battery does the HP-35S use?
Chuck, W5USJ (ex K2OFN)
Point, Rains Co, TX? EM22cv
|
two CR2032 batteries
Roy WA0YMH
On Wed, Dec 11, 2019, 4:31 AM Chuck Carpenter < w5usj@...> wrote: William,
Oooops, That should have been Vrms ?^2
I never could get comfortable with RPN.? I had one of the TI programmables.?That worked good for me for a while.? I loaned it to my son when he was working on his PhD.? He just retired from the workforce.? Still don't have it back!
What sort of battery does the HP-35S use?
Chuck, W5USJ (ex K2OFN)
Point, Rains Co, TX? EM22cv
|
As someone who has endured graduate level math...
Don't overthink the math when designing or troubleshooting a radio.?
As someone else commented, high school algebra is almost overkill for the amateur experimenter.? I always thought W7ZOI took it down to the 'basics', but also note there is a lot of 'heavier stuff" as well.? However again, don't get too caught up in the heavier stuff (unless you want to).
There is a guy on YouTube, Charlie Morris, ZL2CTM, who has made video documentations of his many scratch built projects, ranging from a simple DC receiver, to an SDR transceiver.? While he stresses what he is doing is 'not teaching', one thing Charlie does extremely well is break the 'math' down into practical calculations and, he explains his thinking process as he does so.?
So, if you are looking to answer the question of? "what level of math", you might find Charlie's videos extremely enlightening.
|
Rob --
If you have a copy of "Experimental Methods of RF Design", take a look at chapter 2 "Amplifier Design Basics", first few pages, which discusses simplified models of semiconductor devices. I think that level of intuition is great to have while building and debugging circuits. It does not have a lot of advanced math.
73
Ram VU3RDD
On Mon, Dec 9, 2019, at 5:47 PM, Rob via Groups.Io wrote:
What level of math course would I need to study to learn how to comprehend the equations presented in
design books like Introduction to Radio Frequency Design?? by? W7ZOI.
I have been tinkering with circuits from these books for 50 years but never really learned what is in the math.
There are all sorts of online math course now so.....
What level of math class would teach this gobbledygoop?
and
Do any of you? ACTUALLY use this level of math to build radios or is the math only used by
the guys designing the transistors????
73 Rob KB3BYT
Attachments:
|
thank you
On 12/14/2019 08:00 AM, Ramakrishnan
Muthukrishnan wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Rob --
If you have a copy of
"Experimental Methods of RF Design", take a look at chapter 2
"Amplifier Design Basics", first few pages, which discusses
simplified models of semiconductor devices. I think that level
of intuition is great to have while building and debugging
circuits. It does not have a lot of advanced math.
73
Ram VU3RDD
On Mon, Dec 9, 2019, at 5:47 PM, Rob via Groups.Io wrote:
What level of math course would
I need to study to learn how to comprehend the equations
presented in
design books like Introduction
to Radio Frequency Design?? by? W7ZOI.
I have been tinkering with
circuits from these books for 50 years but never really
learned what is in the math.
There are all sorts of online
math course now so.....
What level of math class would
teach this gobbledygoop?
and
Do any of you? ACTUALLY use this
level of math to build radios or is the math only used by
the guys designing the
transistors????
73 Rob KB3BYT
Attachments:
|
Chuck Carpenter
Dale Hardin KS4NS
k6whp
Ramakrishnan Muthukrishnan