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I'm just finishing off an Alan Gibson kit for an L&B 2-6-2t. (I purchased it from Alan's stand at NEC Warley in 2001, which may be some kind of record for slow work!).
Anyway, given the short coupled wheelbase and long overhangs on the Lynton locos, it would be nice to incorporate some form of side control on the front and rear trucks, so that they do their real-life job of helping steer the loco into curves. However, my initial efforts have merely succeeded in lifting the lead truck's inside wheel off the rail on curves.
Has anyone developed a satisfactory form of pony truck side control for the larger n.g. locos, or is this best consigned to the "too difficult" file?
Allan
|
Hello Allan,
You are nowhere near the "procrastination" record, as?my decades old kit is still languishing in the "cupboard where kits go to die"! ?Needless to say, I am unable to offer any "first hand" advice, however I might suggest
that you contact Paul Martin ( EDM Models ), as he has spent several years redesigning aspects of that kit, and may be able to save you some time ( and frustration ) with a list of "dos" and "don'ts" from his personal "alteration" experiences.
Good luck with your project.
Best regards,
John A. Craig
Austin, Texas
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Show quoted text
I'm just finishing off an Alan Gibson kit for an L&B 2-6-2t. (I purchased it from Alan's stand at NEC Warley in 2001, which may be some kind of record for slow work!).
Anyway, given the short coupled wheelbase and long overhangs on the Lynton locos, it would be nice to incorporate some form of side control on the front and rear trucks, so that they do their real-life job of helping steer the loco into curves. However, my
initial efforts have merely succeeded in lifting the lead truck's inside wheel off the rail on curves.
Has anyone developed a satisfactory form of pony truck side control for the larger n.g. locos, or is this best consigned to the "too difficult" file?
Allan
|
Hi John Thanks - a good idea, I'll get in touch with Paul. If I do come across any ideas I'll let you know.? As for the cupboard where kits go to die, I guess we've all got one of those! All the best Allan
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On 28 Jul 2018, at 17:05, jac19412000 < johnacraigmd@...> wrote:
Hello Allan,
You are nowhere near the "procrastination" record, as?my decades old kit is still languishing in the "cupboard where kits go to die"! ?Needless to say, I am unable to offer any "first hand" advice, however I might suggest
that you contact Paul Martin ( EDM Models ), as he has spent several years redesigning aspects of that kit, and may be able to save you some time ( and frustration ) with a list of "dos" and "don'ts" from his personal "alteration" experiences.
Good luck with your project.
Best regards,
John A. Craig
Austin, Texas
I'm just finishing off an Alan Gibson kit for an L&B 2-6-2t. (I purchased it from Alan's stand at NEC Warley in 2001, which may be some kind of record for slow work!).
Anyway, given the short coupled wheelbase and long overhangs on the Lynton locos, it would be nice to incorporate some form of side control on the front and rear trucks, so that they do their real-life job of helping steer the loco into curves. However, my
initial efforts have merely succeeded in lifting the lead truck's inside wheel off the rail on curves.
Has anyone developed a satisfactory form of pony truck side control for the larger n.g. locos, or is this best consigned to the "too difficult" file?
Allan
|
Allan,
I have done this on a number of different loco's over the years, there are
several ways of doing this, the simplest way is to do it is to use a conical
shaped spring, that way it not only applies a down force but also creates a
sideways resistance.
I don't know how much room you have to play with but one possible spring
might be this one:-
<>
Another way of doing it is to set up all 5 axles so they have “see-saw”
arms between each axle meaning all 5 axles carry the weight of the loco, and
then have horizontally mounted straight compression springs to control the side
movement.
Let me know what you want I can probably photo etch some components to make
it all work how it should.
?
?
?
?
Brian
Rawbelle County Workshops
Qld. Aust.
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Show quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: Allan Dare
Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2018 1:56 AM
Subject: [o14] Loco suspension
?
I'm just finishing off an Alan Gibson kit for an L&B 2-6-2t. (I
purchased it from Alan's stand at NEC Warley in 2001, which may be some kind of
record for slow work!).
Anyway, given the short coupled wheelbase and long overhangs on the Lynton
locos, it would be nice to incorporate some form of side control on the front
and rear trucks, so that they do their real-life job of helping steer the loco
into curves. However, my initial efforts have merely succeeded in lifting the
lead truck's inside wheel off the rail on curves.
Has anyone developed a satisfactory form of pony truck side control for the
larger n.g. locos, or is this best consigned to the "too difficult" file?
Allan
?
?
?
---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com
|
Hi Brian Thanks - the conical spring idea is intriguing. Am I right to assume that the narrow end of the spring is centred on and attached to the loco frames, with the truck bolster moving laterally under the wide end of the spring? Putting in see-saw compensation would be ideal, but unfortunately the frames, etc. were all built rigid when I started construction of the loco back in 2001(!). As it was the first etched brass loco I'd ever attempted, I kept things simple (crude would be a better description). Still, all part of the learning curve....So, thanks for the offer of etching components, but for now I'm stuck with the original arrangement. Allan
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Show quoted text
On 28 Jul 2018, at 21:45, Brian < rallim56@...> wrote:
Allan,
I have done this on a number of different loco's over the years, there are
several ways of doing this, the simplest way is to do it is to use a conical
shaped spring, that way it not only applies a down force but also creates a
sideways resistance.
I don't know how much room you have to play with but one possible spring
might be this one:-
<>
Another way of doing it is to set up all 5 axles so they have “see-saw”
arms between each axle meaning all 5 axles carry the weight of the loco, and
then have horizontally mounted straight compression springs to control the side
movement.
Let me know what you want I can probably photo etch some components to make
it all work how it should.
?
?
?
?
Brian
Rawbelle County Workshops
Qld. Aust.
-----Original Message-----
From: Allan Dare
Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2018 1:56 AM
Subject: [o14] Loco suspension
?
I'm just finishing off an Alan Gibson kit for an L&B 2-6-2t. (I
purchased it from Alan's stand at NEC Warley in 2001, which may be some kind of
record for slow work!).
Anyway, given the short coupled wheelbase and long overhangs on the Lynton
locos, it would be nice to incorporate some form of side control on the front
and rear trucks, so that they do their real-life job of helping steer the loco
into curves. However, my initial efforts have merely succeeded in lifting the
lead truck's inside wheel off the rail on curves.
Has anyone developed a satisfactory form of pony truck side control for the
larger n.g. locos, or is this best consigned to the "too difficult" file?
Allan
?
?
?
---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
|
The conical spring design I first saw on the old Tyco 10 wheeler that was
being sold back in the 1970’s it had a conical spring for the 4 pilot wheels and
worked very well. The link I gave you for the spring is about the right spring
to use, as available from there stock spring range unless you want to have a
custom spring made which would cost you an arm & leg, not to mention having
to perhaps buy 1000 minimum. I don’t know how much weight you have in your loco,
but if that spring tend to lift the drivers slightly you may have to add a bit
more weight to the loco, which will make it run better and pull better. And yes,
small end to the top or loco chassis and big end to the pilot or pony wheels
frames.
?
Brian
Rawbelle
County Workshops
Qld. Aust.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2018 7:40 AM
Subject: Re: [o14] Loco suspension
?
Hi Brian
Thanks - the conical spring idea is intriguing. Am I
right to assume that the narrow end of the spring is centred on and attached to
the loco frames, with the truck bolster moving laterally under the wide end of
the spring?
Putting in see-saw compensation would be ideal, but
unfortunately the frames, etc. were all built rigid when I started construction
of the loco back in 2001(!). As it was the first etched brass loco I'd ever
attempted, I kept things simple (crude would be a better description). Still,
all part of the learning curve....So, thanks for the offer of etching
components, but for now I'm stuck with the original arrangement.
Allan
Allan,
I have done this on a number of different loco's over the years, there
are several ways of doing this, the simplest way is to do it is to use a
conical shaped spring, that way it not only applies a down force but also
creates a sideways resistance.
I don't know how much room you have to play with but one possible spring
might be this one:-
<>
Another way of doing it is to set up all 5 axles so they have “see-saw”
arms between each axle meaning all 5 axles carry the weight of the loco, and
then have horizontally mounted straight compression springs to control the
side movement.
Let me know what you want I can probably photo etch some components to
make it all work how it should.
?
?
?
?
Brian
Rawbelle County Workshops
Qld. Aust.
-----Original Message-----
From: Allan Dare
Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2018 1:56 AM
Subject: [o14] Loco suspension
?
I'm just finishing off an Alan Gibson kit for an L&B 2-6-2t. (I
purchased it from Alan's stand at NEC Warley in 2001, which may be some kind
of record for slow work!).
Anyway, given the short coupled wheelbase and long overhangs on the
Lynton locos, it would be nice to incorporate some form of side control on the
front and rear trucks, so that they do their real-life job of helping steer
the loco into curves. However, my initial efforts have merely succeeded in
lifting the lead truck's inside wheel off the rail on curves.
Has anyone developed a satisfactory form of pony truck side control for
the larger n.g. locos, or is this best consigned to the "too difficult"
file?
Allan
?
?
?
---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
|
This is a very interesting topic for me as I have one of these kits. ?It was a fairly recent purchase (at huge expense!) and was described to me as being one of the original 100 (?) kits that Roy Link had developed.
Not so as it turned out - apparently this kit is a reissued variant by AG himself with all the important Roy Link chassis suspension bits discarded as a cost saving measure.
While I have no 'cupboard of oblivion' for this kit it is at present languishing in the 'pit of despair,' likely until I can find an original to copy or get a fix kit of parts, sprung horn blocks etc.
Craig
On, Canada
|
Craig,
Sprung hornblocks all sound good, but unless you are able to get springs
that are perfect for the job then more often then not you end up with a loco
that wobbles along the track because the springs tend to recoil causing the loco
to rock side to side, that’s why probably the best suspension system isn’t
suspension but equalization ie: using rocker arms between each axle, which
basically keeps the loco stable but allows the axles to move up and down and
only slightly lifting the loco as they do.
?
Brian
Rawbelle
County Workshops
Qld. Aust.
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Show quoted text
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2018 9:40 AM
Subject: Re: [o14] Loco suspension
?
This
is a very interesting topic for me as I have one of these kits.? It was a
fairly recent purchase (at huge expense!) and was described to me as being one
of the original 100 (?) kits that Roy Link had developed. Not so as it
turned out - apparently this kit is a reissued variant by AG himself with all
the important Roy Link chassis suspension bits discarded as a cost saving
measure. While I have no 'cupboard of oblivion' for this kit it is at
present languishing in the 'pit of despair,' likely until I can find an original
to copy or get a fix kit of parts, sprung horn blocks etc. Craig On,
Canada
|
Hi Craig
When I built my loco I had a problem with some cylinder parts, and
Alan Gibson very kindly sent me a replacement etch including a
full set of side frames and stretchers. Whilst these are for a
rigid chassis, there are half-etch lines so that the space for the
hornblocks can be cut out easily and precisely. I didn't need
these, so they are still in my bits box, along with a set of
Gibson sprung hornblocks.? Would these be any use to you?
(The frames were for SR 188 "Lew" but I believe the etches are the
same as for the original locos).
Allan
On 30/07/2018 00:40, Craig Parry wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
This is a very interesting topic for me as I have one of these
kits. ?It was a fairly recent purchase (at huge expense!) and was
described to me as being one of the original 100 (?) kits that Roy
Link had developed.
Not so as it turned out - apparently this kit is a reissued
variant by AG himself with all the important Roy Link chassis
suspension bits discarded as a cost saving measure.
While I have no 'cupboard of oblivion' for this kit it is at
present languishing in the 'pit of despair,' likely until I can
find an original to copy or get a fix kit of parts, sprung horn
blocks etc.
Craig
On, Canada
|
Hi Allan,
I would be most interested in having a go with them. I know of the
half-etch lines you mean as I went through my kit last night piece by
piece. The chassis was partially assembled by a previous owner with the
top hats soldered in place. I believe I have an email from Roy filed away
on this very topic.
Craig
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Hi Craig
When I built my loco I had a problem with some cylinder parts, and Alan
Gibson very kindly sent me a replacement etch including a full set of
side frames and stretchers. Whilst these are for a rigid chassis, there
are half-etch lines so that the space for the hornblocks can be cut out
easily and precisely. I didn't need these, so they are still in my bits
box, along with a set of Gibson sprung hornblocks.?? Would these be any
use to you?
(The frames were for SR 188 "Lew" but I believe the etches are the same
as for the original locos).
Allan
On 30/07/2018 00:40, Craig Parry wrote:
This is a very interesting topic for me as I have one of these kits.
??It was a fairly recent purchase (at huge expense!) and was described
to me as being one of the original 100 (?) kits that Roy Link had
developed.
Not so as it turned out - apparently this kit is a reissued variant by
AG himself with all the important Roy Link chassis suspension bits
discarded as a cost saving measure.
While I have no 'cupboard of oblivion' for this kit it is at present
languishing in the 'pit of despair,' likely until I can find an
original to copy or get a fix kit of parts, sprung horn blocks etc.
Craig
On, Canada
|
Hi Allan,
I am new to this group so I'm not sure about 'settings' yet for contacting
members with PM's but I am on the NGRM forum and have several recent posts
on the Baldwin thread if you are a member there.
Craig
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Hi Allan,
I would be most interested in having a go with them. I know of the
half-etch lines you mean as I went through my kit last night piece by
piece. The chassis was partially assembled by a previous owner with the
top hats soldered in place. I believe I have an email from Roy filed away
on this very topic.
Craig
Hi Craig
When I built my loco I had a problem with some cylinder parts, and Alan
Gibson very kindly sent me a replacement etch including a full set of
side frames and stretchers. Whilst these are for a rigid chassis, there
are half-etch lines so that the space for the hornblocks can be cut out
easily and precisely. I didn't need these, so they are still in my bits
box, along with a set of Gibson sprung hornblocks.?? Would these be any
use to you?
(The frames were for SR 188 "Lew" but I believe the etches are the same
as for the original locos).
Allan
On 30/07/2018 00:40, Craig Parry wrote:
This is a very interesting topic for me as I have one of these kits.
??It was a fairly recent purchase (at huge expense!) and was described
to me as being one of the original 100 (?) kits that Roy Link had
developed.
Not so as it turned out - apparently this kit is a reissued variant by
AG himself with all the important Roy Link chassis suspension bits
discarded as a cost saving measure.
While I have no 'cupboard of oblivion' for this kit it is at present
languishing in the 'pit of despair,' likely until I can find an
original to copy or get a fix kit of parts, sprung horn blocks etc.
Craig
On, Canada
|
Me and my c1994-bought kit are watching with interest ...
The furthest I've got is to 'reverse-engineer' the cab sides to early L&B state!
David H
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Hi John
Thanks - a good idea, I'll get in touch with Paul. If I do come across any ideas I'll let you know.?
As for the cupboard where kits go to die, I guess we've all got one of those!
All the best
Allan
Hello Allan,
You are nowhere near the "procrastination" record, as?my decades old kit is still languishing in the "cupboard where kits go to die"! ?Needless to say, I am unable to offer any "first hand" advice, however I might suggest
that you contact Paul Martin ( EDM Models ), as he has spent several years redesigning aspects of that kit, and may be able to save you some time ( and frustration ) with a list of "dos" and "don'ts" from his personal "alteration" experiences.
Good luck with your project.
Best regards,
John A. Craig
Austin, Texas
I'm just finishing off an Alan Gibson kit for an L&B 2-6-2t. (I purchased it from Alan's stand at NEC Warley in 2001, which may be some kind of record for slow work!).
Anyway, given the short coupled wheelbase and long overhangs on the Lynton locos, it would be nice to incorporate some form of side control on the front and rear trucks, so that they do their real-life job of helping steer the loco into curves. However, my
initial efforts have merely succeeded in lifting the lead truck's inside wheel off the rail on curves.
Has anyone developed a satisfactory form of pony truck side control for the larger n.g. locos, or is this best consigned to the "too difficult" file?
Allan
|
Brian,
What absolute nonsense about sprung chassis!
If you were in the UK I could take you to several layouts owned by my friends where locos with sprung suspension are the ONLY locos present - the carriages and wagons are also fully sprung, following the principles of the prototypes and everything moves with a silky, seductive, sensuous, almost sexy, smoothness.
This applies to small locos shunting, medium locos at moderate speeds appropriate to their traffic and to big express locos gliding around the more than one scale mile main circuit at express speeds (and more)! These are P4 layouts, so the weights are probably about the sesame as we might get with 7mm scale narrow gauge but the flanges are significantly smaller.
By comparison, another friend's compensated/equalised locos and rolling stock, running on the same layouts, sounds a lot harsher and has distinct knocks at crossing vees and track joints that the sprung stock traverse with not a murmur, save for the acceptable clackety-clack we all associate with railways.
For locos the trick is not to try and use coil springs but to use 'leaf' springs employing guitar wire.? each spring of the same length between suspension points will have exactly the same rate and deflection and, if a pair of springs are a bit soft, or hard, because of weight distribution, they can be changed easily by choosing the next up or down size of guitar wire.? Adjustments using grub screws for one mounting point are also possible.
These systems have been well rehearsed in the (UK) Model Railway Journal several times over the years, most eloquently by my good friends Chris Pendlenton and Dave Bradwell.? Their layouts and those belonging to my friends Bob How and Mick Wakefield are where the sprung stock have all run.? Chris and Mick each have fleets of large tender locos, Atlantics, Pacifics and Mikados of LNER and BR origin and each has close to a couple of dozen such locos, as well as the smaller goods and shunting locos.
Springing works, I have the evidence of my own eyes to prove it.? It is easier and simpler than equalisation to set up and adjust and, dammit, prototype equalised loco chassis still have springs in the system!
Regards, Adrian
|
Let us keep it polite. There's a lot of truth in all the suggestions and most importantly it is what each modeller can make work for them - one persons meat is another's poison. I would also point out that Allan's original question was not so much about springing but how to apply a centering force of which Brian has offered the only advice so far.?
For what it is worth I have become a convert to Continuous Spring Beams for my Scale 7 2-6-2 with split axle pickup through the CSB.
John
|
Adrian,
I agree with you as far as springing being the better smoother option, my
reference to using coil springs, is getting the correct tension spring to do the
job, for which until recently being able to buy springs of varying specs. hasn’t
been available unless you wanted to buy 1000,
obviously using guitar wire is a completely different option, you don’t
tend to get the recoil action as with coil springs.
Keep in mind I have been scratch building brass models for many years and
most of them have had sprung suspension, and I have observed many models built
by others who have used coil springs which were not right and the models wobbled
along the track, because they had obviously use the wrong springs.
?
Brian
Rawbelle
County Workshops
Qld. Aust.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2018 5:29 AM
Subject: Re: [o14] Loco suspension
?
Brian,
?
What absolute nonsense about sprung chassis!
?
If you were in the UK I could take you to several layouts owned by my
friends where locos with sprung suspension are the ONLY locos present - the
carriages and wagons are also fully sprung, following the principles of the
prototypes and everything moves with a silky, seductive, sensuous, almost sexy,
smoothness.
?
This applies to small locos shunting, medium locos at moderate speeds
appropriate to their traffic and to big express locos gliding around the more
than one scale mile main circuit at express speeds (and more)!
These are P4 layouts, so the weights are probably about the sesame as we
might get with 7mm scale narrow gauge but the flanges are significantly
smaller.
?
By comparison, another friend's compensated/equalised locos and rolling
stock, running on the same layouts, sounds a lot harsher and has distinct knocks
at crossing vees and track joints that the sprung stock traverse with not a
murmur, save for the acceptable clackety-clack we all associate with
railways.
?
For locos the trick is not to try and use coil springs but to use 'leaf'
springs employing guitar wire.? each spring of the same length between
suspension points will have exactly the same rate and deflection and, if a pair
of springs are a bit soft, or hard, because of weight distribution, they can be
changed easily by choosing the next up or down size of guitar wire.?
Adjustments using grub screws for one mounting point are also possible.
?
These systems have been well rehearsed in the (UK) Model Railway Journal
several times over the years, most eloquently by my good friends Chris
Pendlenton and Dave Bradwell.? Their layouts and those belonging to my
friends Bob How and Mick Wakefield are where the sprung stock have all
run.? Chris and Mick each have fleets of large tender locos, Atlantics,
Pacifics and Mikados of LNER and BR origin and each has close to a couple of
dozen such locos, as well as the smaller goods and shunting locos.
?
Springing works, I have the evidence of my own eyes to prove it.? It
is easier and simpler than equalisation to set up and adjust and, dammit,
prototype equalised loco chassis still have springs in the system!
?
Regards,
Adrian
|
Allan Dare
David Hughes
Adrian Gray