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Heres my answers:

1) Are you actually working to 14mm gauge?
Yes

(2) if so are you using the RCL standard, if not what variation are
you using?
Using the "original" RCL standards from NG&I issue 14. I've got to
check what are differences with the latest standards posted by Roy.
For my standard gauge (same layout) I am using Scale 7.

(3) What are you modelling?
The Pentewan Railway c 1950s. This was a 2'6" railway in Cornwall
which was dismantled 1915 to help the WW1 war effort with a promise to
rebuild after the war (fact). After the war it WAS rebuilt and
extended up the valleys, using ex WW1 2' equipment (fiction). A bit
like the
WHR/Ashover using ex WW1, L&B and L&M equipment (transporters).

(4) Are you on DC or DCC or thinking of the latter?
DC, although very tempted by DCC with sound.
Note I understand Osynths is not DCC. Can anoyone confirm this?

(5) Be as vague as you choose, but roughly where are you?
Hampshire, UK

(6) If you answered yes to (1), how long have you been modelling in
O-14?
17+ years (It's a large layout and still only 1/2 finished!)

John Clutterbuck

(1) Are you actually working to 14mm gauge?

No, currently building (slowly) in On30. But my prototype is 2'
gauge, and I am still uncommitted to 1/4" and 16.5mm gauge. I shall be
investigating the feasibility of converting mechs to 14mm gauge, and
if it all works I may then move to 7mm.

(3) What are you modelling?

Tin mining tramways in Far North Queensland.

(4) Are you on DC or DCC or thinking of the latter?

My HOn30 layout uses DCC, and I plan to install decoders in anything I
do in O. (Whichever O). Almost certainly sound decoders. Being a
regular operator on an On3 layout with most locos sound equipped, it
is very odd to hear no noise when a loco is moving...

(5) Be as vague as you choose, but roughly where are you?

Mitcham, VIC, Australia


==========================================================
John Dennis jdennis@...
Melbourne,Australia Home of the HOn30 Dutton Bay Tramway
and the Australian Narrow Gauge Web-Exhibition Gallery
Dutton Bay URL:
WebX

Frank, All,
Question time sounds like a great idea. We have 50 members, and I know for
sure that several don't model in O-14. It would be nice to know who does.
The group poll feature won't work for these types of questions, so an email
poll it is.
Please remember to delete everything except the questions when you reply.

Non O-14 modellers please answer too!

My answers (with a new question 6):

(1) Are you actually working to 14mm gauge?
Yes (although progress is slow)

(2) if so are you using the RCL standard, if not what variation are you
using?
Using RCL standards, although exact scale sounds like a great
challenge-standards would come from the museum I belong to.

(3) What are you modelling?
small town/wharf/warehouse light railway with mining as a later expansion.
(www.geocities.com/mark_the_train_brain/layout.htm)

(4) Are you on DC or DCC or thinking of the latter?
DC, not considering DCC unless sound gets some bass (Ossynths steam has
caught my eye though)

(5) Be as vague as you choose, but roughly where are you?
(I suppose you mean geographically)
Carlingford, Sydney Australia

(6) If you answered yes to (1), how long have you been modelling in O-14?
About 9 months


Frank, its not MY site, those who use it own it-I'm only here to stop
spamming and other undesirable occurences from happening.

Regards,
Mark K
SydOz

Now that John has raised the issue and Roy has kindly added a PDF file
of 14mm track and wheel standards, how many of us are working to these,
and if not what variations are in use? I ask because we are a relatively
small band, and widely spread, but some of us might meet someday and it
would be handy to be able to run on other members layouts should the
possibility ever arise.

Please may I make it clear that I am not for one moment suggesting that
these standards should be mandatory on any of us. If you are modelling
narrow gauge, let alone on 14mm, you have already shown you can think
away from the crowd, so your track standards are your own business.

Mark, as it is your site may I suggest that perhaps over Christmas we
could run a bit of a survey, I will suggest some questions, but say up
to Christmas Eve we add or change the questions, and then 'fill in the
answers' over Christmas. If nothing else if anyone has a problem they
might know who to ask, this being one of the benefits of being in any
group.

(1) Are you actually working to 14mm gauge?

(2) if so are you using the RCL standard, if not what variation are you
using

(3) What are you modelling

(4) Are you on DC or DCC or thinking of the latter

(5) Be as vague as you choose, but roughly where are you

Are we up for this?

Frank

Amongst all these unmade kits, can anyone help me to find a 7mm DJB BR Class
4 Tank kit to purchase please?

I have a Gibson Lynton & Barnstaple "LEW" 7mm NG unmade kit to exchange or
for sale.

Many thanks

Tony Spencer

Roy/All

Another apology as I failed to notice that Roy has kindly published
the standards PDF in the files section.

I have therefore removed my original files as these are far better
than mine.

John

--- In O-14@..., "adriangrayfr" <adrian@p...> wrote:

:-) I think you mean Guy Williams, or maybe Malcolm Mitchell, both
top flight loco builders I am proud to call me friends.

I meant Guy Williams, but it equally applies to both.

I'm up for a set, please, John.

I'll wait and see if any others want some before getting any made. I
assume as yours is still in the box you're not quite ready for them
yet. Send me a reminder if you have'nt heard from me when you start.

The architect member of our group was adamant that
NO waterproof membrane should be put behind the softboard and that
the gap under the felt should be left so that air can circulate;

My loft floor in my c1988 house has 8x2 joists and no trusses (its why
I wanted the house!) There is currently about 4" insulation under the
chipboard floor. I am supplementing this around the edges to bring it
up to 8" and to trap any heat loss to the middle of the floor. I am
then using a special foil bubble wrap insulation which is designed for
this purpose on the inside of the rafters. This leaves a substantial
air gap between it and the tiles/felt which goes all the way from the
soffit to the ridge. This will leave the area inside the insulation
slightly warmed (due to loss from the 4" insul.) but it will keep out
all the drafts from the soffit gap. Note I also have a velux window
and ventilation from the inside area, and the water tank is still
warmed from below. I'm only 1/4 way through but my wife already says
our bedroom is warmer!

John

Re attic/loft -- if you had put insulation without a vapor barrier that did not contact the underside of the roof structure you would have upped the R value. It would have been really good if you used a foam board that is impervious to moisture still leaving the gap.

May want to add outside vents at the end of the flat ceiling unless there is a lot of venting going on under the roof tiles.

But it is done now so enjoy it.

Bill Uffelman
Las Vegas NV -- it's a dry heat!

adriangrayfr <adrian@...> wrote:



My substantial loft in a 1948 vintage house has had the 3" joists
doubled, to 6" depth, to carry the chipboard floor (I have quite a
bit of FR Archivery up there as well) and the space between these
joists has been filled with rockwool (fibreglass) insulation. This
has the double benefit of having seriously reduced the heating bill
for the house below and reducing the sounds of my friends and I
tramping about above the family bedrooms!
The tiled and felted roof has been underdrawn with softboard nailed
to the rafters. The architect member of our group was adamant that
NO waterproof membrane should be put behind the softboard and that
the gap under the felt should be left so that air can circulate; for
this reason the softboard does not go all the way to the apex but an
18" wide horizontal ceiling ensures a gap from one side to the other
(it also makes a good foundation for the six neon tubes).
If you impede the airflow there will be problems with condensation
between softboard and the underside of the felt.
The softboard has been painted with white emulsion - a tedious job as
it soaks up paint by the gallon, but it makes a very light 'room'.

The insulation from the house below prevents the 'room' becoming too
warm and the softboard above insulates the 'room'(mostly) from
outside temperatures. I now have a space for a layout that doesn't
suffer the extremes of temperature found in some lofts.

I feel a Narrow Lines article coming on............grrr!

Adrian




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--- In O-14@..., "jclutterbuck2001"
<jclutterbuck2001@y...> wrote:

My K1 kit was for 14mm, and therefore I assume I have the correct
brass extensions. Note these are used directly in the bearings (e.g.
brass in brass) which was one of the first things I did'nt like

about

them.

I used phosphor bronze for just that reason (but forgot to mention it
in my Narrow Lines comments - d'oh!)

Now I have assembled the flycranks, coupling rods etc., I still feel
they should be further out as the con rod is currently about 1.5-2mm
shy of the slide bars. Note the slide bars, and cylinders are much
further out (2+mm each side!) than the prototype which led me to the
conclusion that everything is designed for 16.5 gauge and 14mm gauge
is a poor compromise. This may be a bit unfair. I have not built any
other kits intended for 14mm so perhaps my general observation was
also unfair.

On the contrary, I think you are absolutely correct. What you are
observing, however, is a legacy of the kit having been orignally
designed for 9mm gauge when it should have been 8mm - a discrepancy
of 12.5% and the source of the problem. I confess I haven't taken a
vernier to them but I guess that there MAY be extra width between the
frames to suit 009 AND clearance outside for all the slightly
overscale valve gear. When blown up for 7mm scale the 'errors' would
be compounded.

I get the feeling my continuously increasing fine scale aspirations
for the kit are preventing me from enjoying building it. The trouble
is once I see something obviously wrong it will always bug me, so I
keep rebuilding parts. A case of 3 steps forward, 2 steps back and
using up 5 steps of modelling time! Futhermore I question whether my
skills are up to my aspirations. I'm getting better but will never
be a Guy Mitchell.

:-) I think you mean Guy Williams, or maybe Malcolm Mitchell, both
top flight loco builders I am proud to call me friends.

Note I do have some masters to enable production of replacement
cylinder and valve covers in resin of the correct size and number of
bolts. Casting costs for a set (including covering the mould costs)
would end up being in the region of 拢2 - 拢3. If there is enough
interest I could get some done.

I'm up for a set, please, John.

On the subject of DIY I have convinced my wife that insulating the
roof space of my substantial loft will save on heating costs, as it
will trap any heat lost from the house below. At least I'll now be
warm in the winter and cool in the summer and get more modelling

time.

My substantial loft in a 1948 vintage house has had the 3" joists
doubled, to 6" depth, to carry the chipboard floor (I have quite a
bit of FR Archivery up there as well) and the space between these
joists has been filled with rockwool (fibreglass) insulation. This
has the double benefit of having seriously reduced the heating bill
for the house below and reducing the sounds of my friends and I
tramping about above the family bedrooms!
The tiled and felted roof has been underdrawn with softboard nailed
to the rafters. The architect member of our group was adamant that
NO waterproof membrane should be put behind the softboard and that
the gap under the felt should be left so that air can circulate; for
this reason the softboard does not go all the way to the apex but an
18" wide horizontal ceiling ensures a gap from one side to the other
(it also makes a good foundation for the six neon tubes).
If you impede the airflow there will be problems with condensation
between softboard and the underside of the felt.
The softboard has been painted with white emulsion - a tedious job as
it soaks up paint by the gallon, but it makes a very light 'room'.

The insulation from the house below prevents the 'room' becoming too
warm and the softboard above insulates the 'room'(mostly) from
outside temperatures. I now have a space for a layout that doesn't
suffer the extremes of temperature found in some lofts.

I feel a Narrow Lines article coming on............grrr!

Adrian

Roy

Thanks for the explanation of the O14 standards. I am the 'guilty'
person responsible for publishing your standards in the files section.

I have been following these standards for many years (having been a
reader of NG&I for many years) and can vouch that they work well for
'larger' two-foot gauge prototypes. I have some quite complex
pointwork including some curved points rarely experience any
problems. I agree that it is critical to keep exactly to the standards
and especially the back to back. I also use compensation and springing
wherever possible which I feel helps.

In the abscence of anything better I would like to suggest your
standards are still published, that is assuming you dont mind. At
least until someone who knows more about this suggests further
improvements.

Unfortunately attachments get stripped off posts to the group, so I do
not know what the PDF looks like. If you would like to send me the
attachment directly I can either update my document to match.
Alternatively you may wish to publish your standards directly and I
can remove my document (or I can do it for you)

Regards
John Clutterbuck

14mm Gauge Standards

I note that a set of standards, copied from NG&I REVIEW issue 14 are published in the
'Files' section for this group.

These were tentative, and a revised set of standards, based on experience, have been
part of the RCL 'Product Handbook' (page T14) for some time. A copy, together with
an explanation of the way the dimensions work to make reliable turnouts is attached,
as a PDF.

These standards are derived from the old British Railway Modelling Standards Bureau
(BRMSB) document 'Standard Dimensions'. When, in the 1980s, I was developing
proper wheels for 7mm scale narrow gauge rolling stock, the best commercial profile
available was (and remains) that for 'EM'. I took the BRMSB dimensions for EM
(18.00mm gauge), deducted 4mm as appropriate and made a few slight adjustments
in the light of experience.

The 'EM' profile, as made by Alan Gibson, Maygib etc., represents a profile (in 7mm
scale) part way between the Festiniog Railway 'Coach' and 'locomotive' wheel profiles
as drawn in 'Vignes Atlas'. The flange is a little overscale, but not as much as
Romfords. With regard the latter, the 'RP' is not, if I understand Mark Arscott of
Romford correctly, 'Recommended practice (NMRA) but stands for 'Romford Profile'. It
follows NMRA RP-25 standards to an extent, but should not be considered
interchangeable with that profile.

The Romford wheels are entirely at home, however, with my modified standards -
note that recent i.c. loco kits use solid turned nickel silver wheels made for us by
Romford. The trick is getting the back to back measure correct.

I have a small layout built using these standards, with three turnouts (see recent
issues of NG&IRM REVIEW). All the stock have EM profile wheels, machined in steel,
those on the locos being polished out to aid current collection. none of the rolling
stock has any additional weight. Rakes of six skips can be propelled at the top speed
(a scale 20mph) through turnouts without any fear of derailment. The 'trick' is solely
one of keeping to the standards and not deviating. Additional reliability comes from
having locos and stock where the overall lengths and wheelbases are near identical.
The 'Rugga' chassis helps too, as the ends are rounded.

non-industrial prototypes, with varying lengths, wheelbases etc., will always be more
difficult to resolve in terms of good running. Mixing disparate prototypes is another
cause of problems, in the real and model world.

Please bear in mind that I developed these standards to ensure my range of 7mm
scale, 14mm gauge kits worked reliably, given that no set standards existed at the
time of development. I have always felt that, for 'larger' two-foot gauge equipment, a
development of the NMRA standards for 'On2' would be more appropriate.

Roy C Link

Adrian/Frank

My K1 kit was for 14mm, and therefore I assume I have the correct
brass extensions. Note these are used directly in the bearings (e.g.
brass in brass) which was one of the first things I did'nt like about
them.

Now I have assembled the flycranks, coupling rods etc., I still feel
they should be further out as the con rod is currently about 1.5-2mm
shy of the slide bars. Note the slide bars, and cylinders are much
further out (2+mm each side!) than the prototype which led me to the
conclusion that everything is designed for 16.5 gauge and 14mm gauge
is a poor compromise. This may be a bit unfair. I have not built any
other kits intended for 14mm so perhaps my general observation was
also unfair.

I get the feeling my continuously increasing fine scale aspirations
for the kit are preventing me from enjoying building it. The trouble
is once I see something obviously wrong it will always bug me, so I
keep rebuilding parts. A case of 3 steps forward, 2 steps back and
using up 5 steps of modelling time! Futhermore I question whether my
skills are up to my aspirations. I'm getting better but will never be
a Guy Mitchell.

Note I do have some masters to enable production of replacement
cylinder and valve covers in resin of the correct size and number of
bolts. Casting costs for a set (including covering the mould costs)
would end up being in the region of 拢2 - 拢3. If there is enough
interest I could get some done.

On the subject of DIY I have convinced my wife that insulating the
roof space of my substantial loft will save on heating costs, as it
will trap any heat lost from the house below. At least I'll now be
warm in the winter and cool in the summer and get more modelling time.
This will no doubt be the source of more moans - she did buy me the K1
though!

John

Adrian,

Will your wife notice that the built in wardrobes look remarkably like
slate wagons stacked on top of each other?

Frank (who's D I Y list is so long its on computer!)

--- In O-14@..., "jclutterbuck2001"
<jclutterbuck2001@y...> wrote:

Further to the recent issues regarding 14mm axles I am finding that
some kits do not allow the distance between the frames to be

adjusted

to match the gauge and maintain the correct relationship between
cranks, motion and cylinders etc. For example with my Backwoods K1
Garratt it means that the flycranks etc, are too close to the frames
by 1.25 mm each side (16.5 - 14) / 2.

John,
That should not have happened as the McParlins have axle extensions
of two lengths, one for 16.5mm gauge axles and another for 14mm gauge.
Did you buy your K1 as a 14mm set up or have you adapted it?
Either way, give Pete a ring and check you have extensions of the
correct length.
I would check mine but my kit has been carefully packed away by my
wife so that I deliver on my promise to complete before Christmas
some DIY jobs that have languished, 99% done, for far too long.
When I made the promise I didn't think she would take it to be THIS
Christmas!!
:-)

In 4mm many kit manufacturers supply different frame spacers to suit
OO, EM and P4. With the rise in 14mm gauge perhaps the kit
manufacturers should be encouraged to do the same.

Many already do, when appropriate - Agenoria, Mercian and Wrightlines
to name three.

Adrian

John,

I think you have said that the K1 is Romford wheels. Now assuming that
the frames aren't already pushed out wider than they should be to allow
for 16.5 gauge, there are some extensions made to screw onto the
threaded part of the shaft. They replace the Romford wheel nuts, but
they are brass. They won't last very well if you use them as the bearing
part of the axle, but could you set them up on a dummy axle in the
lathe, turn then down until you could push some steel tubing over them
and then turn the steel tube down to eighth inch. I got my brass
extensions from Colin Ashby. Colin and Val have now retired, but I
notice were back on the stand at the NEC. It now trades as Colin Ashby
2004 or some similar title.

Frank

Further to the recent issues regarding 14mm axles I am finding that
some kits do not allow the distance between the frames to be adjusted
to match the gauge and maintain the correct relationship between
cranks, motion and cylinders etc. For example with my Backwoods K1
Garratt it means that the flycranks etc, are too close to the frames
by 1.25 mm each side (16.5 - 14) / 2.

In 4mm many kit manufacturers supply different frame spacers to suit
OO, EM and P4. With the rise in 14mm gauge perhaps the kit
manufacturers should be encouraged to do the same.

On my K1 I am now considering whether to make new longer axle
extensions (probably in steel) to which I could attach the flycranks
directly instead of using the plastic bushes. This would mean another
complete dismantle and restart, with completion even further away. At
least it will be a respite from the Xmas telly repeats!

John C

Adrian,
Not yet a 7mmNGA member because I'm a poor uni student and can't afford to be!
Being in Australia without a credit card makes it hard too!
I plan on joining up next year.
Cheers,
Mark K
Sydney Oz

--- In O-14@..., "Mark Kendrick" <trainbrain@o...> wrote:

Will Adrian review something from someone who isn't an Association

member?

Regards,
Mark K

If it has relevance to 7mm scale NG modelling then it will be
reviewed, regardless of source!

Anyway, (Association committee hat on) why aren't you a member?
:-)

Adrian (TLO)

Very impressive piece of work.

Bill Uffelman

Frank Sharp <Frank.J.Sharp@...> wrote:

How's that for a pun? I've put a photo of my double Fairlie in the photo
section. This is taken before I turned down the flanges. I don't really
understand this adding photos business, so if you ask it for full screen
you will find it goes massive, you will need a wall size screen. Tell me
what I am doing wrong and I will sort it.

The loco was a Wrightlines kit, originally 16.5. When I decided to go
14mm, I dismantled it, turned down the frame spacers and regauged it.
Partly then, but also in its 16.5 days it has been somewhat modified
underneath. It no longer has the three point bogie pivots, the original
motor, or gear box. It now has a Branchlines 80:1 boxes, and mashima
motors on their sides. The pivot is now a bolt into a bit of earth pin
off a plug soldered under the dome. This carries a bar which spans the
motor, and is then bolted to part of the Wrightlines mounting plate
through the standoffs used for printed circuit boards. It has DCC chips
for each motor though the pickups are linked.
I've modelled it as far as I know as Taliesin running about 1930, though
it was probably in Colonel Stephen's Kentish Green. I've used Rover
Targa Red, and lining is Fox transfers. It took about 20 hours in total
to line out.
I have two others to do, one should make Merddin Emrys reasonably
easily, but converting the other to James Spooner (just before
withdrawal) is going to be a bigger problem




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How's that for a pun? I've put a photo of my double Fairlie in the photo
section. This is taken before I turned down the flanges. I don't really
understand this adding photos business, so if you ask it for full screen
you will find it goes massive, you will need a wall size screen. Tell me
what I am doing wrong and I will sort it.

The loco was a Wrightlines kit, originally 16.5. When I decided to go
14mm, I dismantled it, turned down the frame spacers and regauged it.
Partly then, but also in its 16.5 days it has been somewhat modified
underneath. It no longer has the three point bogie pivots, the original
motor, or gear box. It now has a Branchlines 80:1 boxes, and mashima
motors on their sides. The pivot is now a bolt into a bit of earth pin
off a plug soldered under the dome. This carries a bar which spans the
motor, and is then bolted to part of the Wrightlines mounting plate
through the standoffs used for printed circuit boards. It has DCC chips
for each motor though the pickups are linked.
I've modelled it as far as I know as Taliesin running about 1930, though
it was probably in Colonel Stephen's Kentish Green. I've used Rover
Targa Red, and lining is Fox transfers. It took about 20 hours in total
to line out.
I have two others to do, one should make Merddin Emrys reasonably
easily, but converting the other to James Spooner (just before
withdrawal) is going to be a bigger problem