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On Saturday 26 December 2009 09:33:19 am cagamba wrote:

LOL! "should, mandatory, absolutely required..."

its like, in the Nixie User's Bible somewhere :)

I see my sin. Would it be overkill to build a variable resistance "box"
(using decade switches) to accomodate the requirements for all the tubes I
have? Or maybe just use a sliding variable resistor ('potenciometer')?
Maybe it's more practical to use just individual resistors, I know.

Not really -- but there's a better way. have on hand a dip-12 socket? Some
assorted resistors? Cool!

Here's how I do it:
(make sure you view things in fixed width :) )

power in Dip12 socket
vcc o-----------[ ~~ ]-.
.-[ ~~ ]-'
`-[ ~~ ]-.
.-[ ~~ ]-'
`-[ ~~ ]-.
.-[ ~~ ]-'
`-[ ~~ ]-.
.-[ ~~ ]-'
`-[ ~~ ]-.
.-[ ~~ ]-'
`-[ ~~ ]-.
-[ ~~ ]-'

Simply shove the appropriate resistors into it (You dont /have/ to use a
DIP12, a DIP8 or some such works fine too) and use the next down hole. $1 in
parts.

As well, a potentiometer would be fine too -- something like a 30k +/- 40%
would do the trick:
12K Resistor
vcc o--~~~--.
==[]---+------o vout
`--/

(a little better is to use the grounding line from the pot down to your ground
like so)
12K resistor
vcc o----~~~-.
[]-----o nixie HV
gnd o--------+------o nixie ground

If you look hard enough he also has some assorted and sundry computer stuff
(including some old FPSs) Neat stuff.

Morgan Gangwere
"The future is here, its just not evenly distributed yet!"
-- William Gibson
"When in doubt, walk up to the offending machine and state Ohms
law: 'v=ir..v=ir'. then hit it. hard. they can smell fear."
(Unknown, presumed from The devil's DP dictionary)

At 4:33 PM +0000 12/26/09, cagamba wrote:

--- In NEONIXIE-L@..., "chuck richards" <chuckrr@...> wrote:

[Shine quite bright...the understatement of the year 2009...]
:P

LOL! "should, mandatory, absolutely required..."
I see my sin. Would it be overkill to build a variable resistance "box" (using decade switches) to accomodate the requirements for all the tubes I have? Or maybe just use a sliding variable resistor ('potenciometer')? Maybe it's more practical to use just individual resistors, I know.

A 4.7K resistor in series with a 50K pot would be just fine. Be sure to use a plastic knob with a recessed set screw, as there may be high voltage on it.

--

--David Forbes, Tucson, AZ

Like my 4 year old nephew says... "Hey, I have a great idea..." for us to put our sleeping nixie tubes to work.

Why don't we (that's 'you engineers' - lol) build a Christmas ornament with nixie tubes? I envision a medium-sized board to hang on the wall, with dozens, perhaps hundreds of tubes happily blinking in random order. Or a string of nixies for the window.

Some sort of blinking speed control would be bliss.

Wat'cha think?

--- In NEONIXIE-L@..., "chuck richards" <chuckrr@...> wrote:

[Shine quite bright...the understatement of the year 2009...]
:P

LOL! "should, mandatory, absolutely required..."
I see my sin. Would it be overkill to build a variable resistance "box" (using decade switches) to accomodate the requirements for all the tubes I have? Or maybe just use a sliding variable resistor ('potenciometer')? Maybe it's more practical to use just individual resistors, I know.

Here's one for sale on someone's webpage, perhaps it might be of interest to someone here. Item 233. Price of $75 is seemingly attractive, considering it's all metal ("built like a tank", he says) and you'd take home a matching variable capacitance box too. Guy calls himself a packrat, and I agree. A few other interesting items for sale there too - nothing nixie though.

Yes, as everyone else has already said, it's absolutely
required that a nixie tube has a series resistor!

This is usually put in series with the anode (positive)
lead.

They will be wrecked in very short (pardon the pun) order
without such a resistor.

On one of my 175 volt DC power supplies, I have a 20 position
barrier strip to which are screwed several resistors ranging
from around 10k up to 47k or so.

The tiny little tubes such as NL5853 will glow fairly well
using the 47k or maybe 33k.

More standard sized tubes such as NL941 glow nicely with
around 20k to 15k.

Some of the larger tubes need down around 10k or so.

But, do go by what David Forbes says about current.
You will find that my ballpark resistance values do tend
to agree with David's specified currents.

Chuck

[Shine quite bright...the understatement of the year 2009...]
:P

nixies shine quite bright, so I wonder if I should be using some
resistor (and, if so, what value) in series with the anode to avoid

$4.95/mo. National Dialup, Anti-Spam, Anti-Virus, 5mb personal web space. 5x faster dialup for only $9.95/mo. No contracts, No fees, No Kidding! See for more details!

Yeah I noticed that (Of course they could care less now at those low
values). I have a friend who has an oooold smoke detector that uses
Polonium or some such for co2 detection.

Cool, polonium is also used in anti-static brushes. These days, ionization style smoke detectors use americium. I'm looking for an ooooold americium one for my element collection, as americium has a shortish half-life, and a really old unit would be mostly neptunium by now.

- John

--- In NEONIXIE-L@..., "cagamba" <cagamba@...> wrote:

Hello, Giampaolo, and thank you for showing up.

I love the design of the Penta, so I'm going forward and starting to build one. However, I've just realised that some of the most interesting words in Portuguese have 6 letters, so who knows an "Hexa" device might come to be sometime? Of course, I have no idea if it's possible to stick an extra digit/character there.

Anyway, I've got a few questions about the Penta.

- What modifications are needed for it to work under a 60Hz mains?
- What's that capacitor on pin 3 of the MC34063? It's not clear in your drawing, seems to be '1M'.
- There are 3 different drawings for capacitors, does that differ the electrolytic from ceramic, and so on?
- What's the dissipation on the resistors? don't know if there's any difference between the two different drawings of resistors also.
- What are the specifications (or just the type) of the four diodes making up a bridge at the main power source?

Thank you

(Everyone, please feel free to answer)

Hello Marco,
Some answers to your questions:

The capacitor on pin 3 of the mC 34063 is 1 nF (1000 pf).
I have cleaned up a little bit the drawing. Only two types of capacitors: electrolitic or non-electrolitic.
Resistors are all the same: 1/4 W.
Diodes in the bridge are 1N4007
I have put the asm and hex files for the 60 Hz version in the web site(v 1.40C). The hardware is the same.

Making a Hexa out of the Penta would be a major task, not so much for the hardware but for the software. You'll have to rewrite it.
All the best
Giampaolo

hey y'all;

Wanted to wish everyone on the list a merry Christmas and a happy new year!

--
Morgan Gangwere
"The future is already here, its just not evenly distributed yet"
-- William Gibson"

At 6:18 AM +0000 12/25/09, cagamba wrote:

Hello everyone.
Through eBay, I've bought a few switching power supply units for nixies. They seem to be based on the Desmith design. For now, I just intent to use them to light up and test nixies.

It works perfectly, puts out exactly 180 volts. I noticed that the nixies shine quite bright, so I wonder if I should be using some resistor (and, if so, what value) in series with the anode to avoid damage.

Thanks

Marco

Marco,

Yes, a series resistor is mandatory. You wouldn't run an LED without one, and a nixie tube works just like an LED as far as its voltage/current relation is concerned.

The value depends on the current you want to push through the tube and the voltage across the nixie tube when lit. This is usually 140 volts. If the power supply puts out 180 volts, then the resistor will have 40 volts across it, being the difference between the 180v supply and the 140 volt tube.

The tube current depends on the tube size. For a typical 15mm digit height, use about 3 milliamperes. Use 2 mA for a 10mm digit, and 5 mA for a 30mm digit.

Ohm's law says that 40 V / 3 mA = 17K ohms. Round it up to 18K or 22K whatever you have handy.

Using that resistor as a first guess, connect it and measure the actual voltage across the resistor. Adjust the formula to match, and you will have the correct value.
--

--David Forbes, Tucson, AZ

"cagamba" <cagamba@...> wrote:

I wonder if I should be using some resistor (and, if so, what value) in series with the anode to avoid damage.

Hello Marco,

Yes, you should. Look at the datasheet(s) for your nixie(s) to see what the recommended current should be, then calculate the anode resistor size. Sometimes the datasheets will even make suggestions as to the appropriate value(s) for certain supply voltage(s).

Regards,
Vince

[snip[

I wonder if I should be using some resistor (and, if so, what value) in series with the anode to avoid damage.

a 12Kohm should do fine :) Its what's suggested in the documentation
I've read (Burroughs mostly)

--
Morgan gangwere

“The future’s already arrived. It’s just not evenly distributed yet.”
William Gibson

Hello everyone.
Through eBay, I've bought a few switching power supply units for nixies. They seem to be based on the Desmith design. For now, I just intent to use them to light up and test nixies.

It works perfectly, puts out exactly 180 volts. I noticed that the nixies shine quite bright, so I wonder if I should be using some resistor (and, if so, what value) in series with the anode to avoid damage.

Thanks

Marco

Hello, Giampaolo, and thank you for showing up.

I love the design of the Penta, so I'm going forward and starting to build one. However, I've just realised that some of the most interesting words in Portuguese have 6 letters, so who knows an "Hexa" device might come to be sometime? Of course, I have no idea if it's possible to stick an extra digit/character there.

Anyway, I've got a few questions about the Penta.

- What modifications are needed for it to work under a 60Hz mains?
- What's that capacitor on pin 3 of the MC34063? It's not clear in your drawing, seems to be '1M'.
- There are 3 different drawings for capacitors, does that differ the electrolytic from ceramic, and so on?
- What's the dissipation on the resistors? don't know if there's any difference between the two different drawings of resistors also.
- What are the specifications (or just the type) of the four diodes making up a bridge at the main power source?

Thank you

(Everyone, please feel free to answer)

Howdy y'all;

I've found a source for VFD tubes (as well as a few of the "natural
looking" 7-segment tubes!) and they're FIP9m5 (looks like a calculator
face).

My question is: does anyone have any information on them (specs,
pinouts, voltages, etc) ?

--
Morgan gangwere

“The future’s already arrived. It’s just not evenly distributed yet.”
William Gibson

--- In NEONIXIE-L@..., "cagamba" <cagamba@...> wrote:

Anyone here ever pursued building a Penta device (by Giampaolo Minetti), the one portrayed in Neonixie's opening picture?

I believe it would work well with Portuguese, which has very interesting (ahem) five letter words. I also find its "industrial" look, using five ZM 1350, very cool.

I've tried contacting him a few times, only received a response once, more than one year ago, he was a bit busy at the time due to health issues from a relative, if I remember correctly.

He was kind enough to provide a vast array of information on his page,



but the page itself seems to be derelict these days and it falls short of providing a list of parts (no big deal, actually) and of mentioning any improvements from the original design, so I wonder if it is a viable project.

Hello,
I am the author of the Penta device. I see that Marco (cagamba) has posted a message about it, and I feel I should give an answer. It is true that I did not have time to answer personal email last year and part of this year too, for personal problems. I am 47, unmarried, a biochmist and teacher at the university of Pavia, Itly. This is my full time job and when I say full-time I remember one of those Murphy's laws that says something like "Biochemistry expands to fill all the time and space available". This is the second reason why I am not very active in the group and in keeping in touch with those who contact me privately. Sorry.
I have always had a deep passion for electronics, since I was 12-13, that started bordering on the verge of insanity once a nixie tube made its first appearance in my house. I still remember my father bringing home one lonely specimen, a horizontal-view ZM1186 I believe, with red filter and a nice socket. It was then a matter to figure out how to make it glow, but that came later, after having learned how to assemble digital counters around 7490 decades, 7475 latches and display drivers. This was fun in those years, when digital IC's started becoming available to the experimenter. Apart from the various electrocutions I experienced with high voltage sections, I remember blowing the whole series of 7490 decades, latches and 7441 drivers in what was intended to be a frequency meter, when I inverted the polarity in the 5V power supply. Those 7490 cost each the equivalent of perhaps 15 Euro of today, which was maybe twice my weekly allowance as a kid. I am sure many in the group that are my age know what I am talking about.

Anyway, the Penta project. Despite the all-pervading professional engagement, I did find some time a few years ago, I don't know how, to build it. It was, it is, and it will remain (I think), a proof of principle that those displays could be driven with a small microcontroller, and for the fun of displaying words and time of the day.
The project is not stalling neither developing, it is out there for others to play with, since the code is available, the schematics is not very complex and it works, and I intend to come back to it as soon as I have some spare time (nice joke). Maybe the choice of transistors for the hardware-number-generator section is a little bit tricky. I remember actually having to choose the right ones in a bag of identically labelled BC237B. I should probably have tested their characteristics, but I don't have a curve tracer. Yes, a curve tracer is really somthing that I would like to get, someday. As for the group, I peek in from time to time, I am delighted and maybe also a little bit flattered, that the two Pentas are in the opening picture of this group, and I like the spirit of it, disinterested and friendly. In days like these it is not a small thing.
I wish a nice Holiday season to everybody
Keep (it) glowing
Giampaolo

[edited by A.J. - please trim quoted material]
2009/12/22 Dave Brown <tractorb@...>

Dont suppose you have a manual for it? Happy to pay all costs to get a
copy.
I have one of these that needs a bit of attention-

- I'm picking a lot of the circuitry will be identical to what you
have.

<snip>

Dave,

Sorry, no manual, but it is always possible that one will turn up in the
massive clearout that we are having.

The construction is rather different to the 4032, with 2 large hinged metal
chassis in a 6U case. I have a model 4064 btw, which has a bunch of switches
for setting preset counts on the front panel. The construction quality is
marvellous. Any help that I can give, photos etc?

Regards

Tom Harris

--

Tom Harris <celephicus@...>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Wed, Dec 23, 2009 at 2:09 PM, A.J. <[email protected]> wrote:
8<----Snip--->8

The 85Kr is present in a few nixie types to reduce what is known as the "dark effect". Several factors affect the time it takes a nixie to ionize and light up from cold, one of the more significant of which is the amount of ambient radiation (usually light). Manufacturers added a small amount of mildly radioactive Krypton gas as a source of ions to a few types, for use in situations where they might be required to light up immediately in dark locations. Most of the radiation produced by 85Kr is low-energy Beta, which can not penetrate glass.

This is what I gathered from the various websites i've found with
them. I'm surprised dieter doesn't have pictures of them, given the
apparent commonality of these guys :)

Also, the amount present is so low that you'd literally have to smash and inhale from thousands (perhaps millions?) of new tubes at once to have any significant increased risk of harm above that from everyday background radiation. Finally, the half-life of 85Kr is less than a decade, so those tubes now have less than a tenth the radioactivity that they did when they were made. So, nothing to worry about at all, really. The radioactivity labeling is only there because the U.S. government required it.

Yeah I noticed that (Of course they could care less now at those low
values). I have a friend who has an oooold smoke detector that uses
Polonium or some such for co2 detection.

[snip]

Firstly, nixies with rigid pins should not be soldered, and you'd probably have a difficult time of it if you tried. Second, and most importantly, type B-5092-A uses one of the most common types of nixie sockets (13-pin round), which are fairly readily available from several sources usually including Jan Wuesten, Sphere Research, and Ebay. Properly driven nixie tubes (except the earliest types) can last for decades of continuous use, so you probably won't be doing much replacing anyway.

I searched and my thing is I dont want to have to order anything I
cant get at say my local Surplus outlet. I *have* socket headers I can
solder onto a board and I wrote me a script that generates the
locations of all the pins (given # pins including keys && size in mils
of the diameter of original socket). I'll go divulge myself of another
few surplus places to see but its looking grim. I mean my last-ditch
effort is I suck the socket leads out of a few connectors I have
laying around.

Also, for anyone curious I took some pictures of my found Nixies:



--
Morgan gangwere

“The future’s already arrived. It’s just not evenly distributed yet.”
William Gibson

On 22 Dec 2009, at 12:52, Martin Rimmer wrote:

Hello, having just joined the group the moderator suggested that I give a little information on myself - so here it is...

I reside in South West Wales, UK and I am a member of the BJO forum on Yahoo, the British Jukebox Owners forum and owning 4 1950's jukeboxes. I have a love for most things thermionic and my next project is to build a nixie clock. My knowledge isn't sufficient for me to design my own so I will have to use someone elses. Eventually I hope to build a scope display clock and a totally thermionic clock, using tubes as counters and dividers with nixies as the display. I shudder at the running costs of that one :)

Many thanks to John Smout for introducing me to nixie clocks, watches and this forum. I look forward to participating in a positive manner soonest.

Martin Rimmer
BTW - happily there isn't one semiconductor amplifier in use in my household!

Martin, please get back to moderating the BJO for me, so I don't have to. I am sure a nixie clock is well within your capabilities. They are not such difficult animals to tame, it's just that some people like to do such outrageous things with nixies. I call it plain perverse, but your mileage might differ...

Having said that, I am going to seriously need the group's help on this alphanumeric display issue I have. I shall endeavour to get my information collated and all in one place very soon, so I can take advantage of the extensive EE expertise on this group. I know we also have Ted Kilpin here who designed pinball machines with these timorous wee beasties...

Thanks to all who responded so positively to my plea of complete and utter ignorance thus far.

Have a great time this Xmas and I hope you all have your families and friends around you. If you don't, then I hope you will be with them very soon.

Best wishes,

John S

PS: this Rimmer chappie is not the one with an H tattooed on his forehead.

--- In NEONIXIE-L@..., Morgan Gangwere <0.fractalus@...> wrote:
<snip>

I've picked up some Burroughs B5092A's (From what I can tell from
one of their catalogs, a long-life high-visibility one) for $4 a
piece and am working on schematics for a simple clock I want to
build.

<snip>

[W]hy is there a radioactivity symbol on these?/ On all my little
nixies there's a radioactive symbol next to the name -- I can
assume because they've got amounts of 85Kr in them
(according to the label on one).

Welcome to the group, Morgan! The 85Kr is present in a few nixie types to reduce what is known as the "dark effect". Several factors affect the time it takes a nixie to ionize and light up from cold, one of the more significant of which is the amount of ambient radiation (usually light). Manufacturers added a small amount of mildly radioactive Krypton gas as a source of ions to a few types, for use in situations where they might be required to light up immediately in dark locations. Most of the radiation produced by 85Kr is low-energy Beta, which can not penetrate glass. Also, the amount present is so low that you'd literally have to smash and inhale from thousands (perhaps millions?) of new tubes at once to have any significant increased risk of harm above that from everyday background radiation. Finally, the half-life of 85Kr is less than a decade, so those tubes now have less than a tenth the radioactivity that they did when they were made. So, nothing to worry about at all, really. The radioactivity labeling is only there because the U.S. government required it.

Third, not so major question, is does anyone know of a source for
sockets? I dont want to have to solder new nixies every time one
burns out

<snip>

Firstly, nixies with rigid pins should not be soldered, and you'd probably have a difficult time of it if you tried. Second, and most importantly, type B-5092-A uses one of the most common types of nixie sockets (13-pin round), which are fairly readily available from several sources usually including Jan Wuesten, Sphere Research, and Ebay. Properly driven nixie tubes (except the earliest types) can last for decades of continuous use, so you probably won't be doing much replacing anyway.

A.J.

On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 4:52 AM, Martin Rimmer
<honeyjukes@...> wrote:

Eventually I hope to build a scope display clock and a totally thermionic clock, using tubes as counters and dividers with nixies as the display.? I shudder at the running costs of that one :)

Welcome! I applaud your ambition!

- Sean