|
I have released a new version of NanoVNA-Saver, 0.2.1:
This release is a minor update to the 0.2.0 release:
New feature: Capacitance and Inductance charts
These new charts display the calculated series equivalent Capacitance and
Inductance against frequency.
New feature: Panning and modified zooming
You can now hold the middle mouse button to pan a zoomed chart, or hold
shift or control to only zoom the value or frequency axis when zooming
using the mouse wheel.
Moving markers using the arrow keys
After placing a marker on a chart by clicking with the mouse, it's now
possible to move the marker immediately using the arrow keys.
Experimental feature: Port extension/Offset delay
The calibration window has a new experimental feature. You can set an
offset delay, which I'm told is useful for compensating for cables used
when measuring without doing a full calibration. The value is applied
immediately when changed, and is not connected to the other calibration
features. Feedback on this feature is specifically requested.
Additionally, a number of bugfixes have been made, based on your feedback -
Thank you! A lot of tidying has happened on the back end of the code, as
well as the introduction of some automatic testing - thanks to Holger
M¨¹ller and David Hunt!
As ever, I look forward to hearing all your feedback and suggestions!
--
Rune / 5Q5R
|
Thank you, Rune!
Now also the TDR function is correct and even delivers the impedance as function of the distance. Great!
Wolfgang, DH1AKF
|
I can't find it. What do you use for a middle mouse button on a macintosh if you have an apple two button mouse?
M
|
Dear Rune,
thanks for the new release 0.2.1.
I tried to test the new experimental feature additional extension of cable length with the linux tar gz on python 3.7 (opensuse, Thumbleweed)
When I have the calibration at the port has been loaded an I connect a short adapter (length 200 ps) I opened the calibration dialog and added the 200 ps to the special extension of the dialog.
Nothing happens, even when I closed the dialog.
What did I expect from the view of working process?
When I enter a number into the offset dialog, the last measured Smith diagram will be redrawn with the new calculation of the just entered extension.
So I am able to optimize the length so that the Smith diagram shows a dot in the high impedance point. -- As I understood your description.
Let me recommend some more points:
1. I prefer this dialog to be placed in the main window, left column, below TDR or above analysis
2. I tried to open the last nanaovna-saver versions on Windows 8.1 Surface Pro with screen pixels 1920 x1080. When entering the calibration dialog, this dialog is larger than the screen and the low er elements are cut off. -- Am I the only one who mentioned this issue?
3. the new offset should have a phase component (offset time) as well as an attenuation component. You proposed to use it for "extending the calibration plane to the end of the cable" -- yes, this will be nice. -- But real cables are lossy cables!
Thanks for this experimental feature. (together with all the other nice features)
|
Hello Hartje,
thank you very much for your feedback!
I have used it like you describe, though usually without having set up a
calibration in NanoVNA-Saver itself. There may be an error that prevents it
from functioning as I expected - I will look at it some more. :-)
I agree that it *should* include a loss compensation, but this isn't as
easy as the mathematics for doing a phase shift ;-)
UI placement is a difficult problem. Like you say, some windows are ending
up taller than your screen. I run all my screens at 1920x1200, so I don't
tend to notice if I make the windows too large. I know that if I put
anything more in the main window, it will be too tall for those running
1366x768. All a matter of compromising.
Again, thank you for taking the time to give me feedback on this!
--
Rune / 5Q5R
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Wed, 4 Dec 2019 at 19:20, <hartje@...> wrote: Dear Rune,
thanks for the new release 0.2.1.
I tried to test the new experimental feature additional extension of cable
length with the linux tar gz on python 3.7 (opensuse, Thumbleweed)
When I have the calibration at the port has been loaded an I connect a
short adapter (length 200 ps) I opened the calibration dialog and added the
200 ps to the special extension of the dialog.
Nothing happens, even when I closed the dialog.
What did I expect from the view of working process?
When I enter a number into the offset dialog, the last measured Smith
diagram will be redrawn with the new calculation of the just entered
extension.
So I am able to optimize the length so that the Smith diagram shows a dot
in the high impedance point. -- As I understood your description.
Let me recommend some more points:
1. I prefer this dialog to be placed in the main window, left column,
below TDR or above analysis
2. I tried to open the last nanaovna-saver versions on Windows 8.1 Surface
Pro with screen pixels 1920 x1080. When entering the calibration dialog,
this dialog is larger than the screen and the low er elements are cut off.
-- Am I the only one who mentioned this issue?
3. the new offset should have a phase component (offset time) as well as
an attenuation component. You proposed to use it for "extending the
calibration plane to the end of the cable" -- yes, this will be nice. --
But real cables are lossy cables!
Thanks for this experimental feature. (together with all the other nice
features)
|
Hello Wolfgang,
thank you! I hope it's useful for you :-)
--
Rune / 5Q5R
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Wed, 4 Dec 2019 at 13:51, Wolfgang Kiefer <woki@...> wrote: Thank you, Rune!
Now also the TDR function is correct and even delivers the impedance as
function of the distance. Great!
Wolfgang, DH1AKF
|
Hello Mario,
I don't know how things work on Apple - sorry. Middle mouse to drag things
is used in other apps I use, such as Autodesk Fusion 360. I don't know what
they do on Mac OS, though. Maybe there is a way to do it?
--
Rune / 5Q5R
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Wed, 4 Dec 2019 at 16:22, Mario Vano <mvano@...> wrote: I can't find it. What do you use for a middle mouse button on a macintosh
if you have an apple two button mouse?
M
|
Hartje,
a little update: If you are running a continuous sweep, the Offset Delay
will *not* be applied. Only for single sweeps of an arbitrary length.
I'll fix this in the next version, of course :-)
--
Rune / 5Q5R
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Wed, 4 Dec 2019 at 19:39, Rune Broberg <mihtjel@...> wrote: Hello Hartje,
thank you very much for your feedback!
I have used it like you describe, though usually without having set up a
calibration in NanoVNA-Saver itself. There may be an error that prevents it
from functioning as I expected - I will look at it some more. :-)
I agree that it *should* include a loss compensation, but this isn't as
easy as the mathematics for doing a phase shift ;-)
UI placement is a difficult problem. Like you say, some windows are ending
up taller than your screen. I run all my screens at 1920x1200, so I don't
tend to notice if I make the windows too large. I know that if I put
anything more in the main window, it will be too tall for those running
1366x768. All a matter of compromising.
Again, thank you for taking the time to give me feedback on this!
--
Rune / 5Q5R
On Wed, 4 Dec 2019 at 19:20, <hartje@...> wrote:
Dear Rune,
thanks for the new release 0.2.1.
I tried to test the new experimental feature additional extension of
cable length with the linux tar gz on python 3.7 (opensuse, Thumbleweed)
When I have the calibration at the port has been loaded an I connect a
short adapter (length 200 ps) I opened the calibration dialog and added the
200 ps to the special extension of the dialog.
Nothing happens, even when I closed the dialog.
What did I expect from the view of working process?
When I enter a number into the offset dialog, the last measured Smith
diagram will be redrawn with the new calculation of the just entered
extension.
So I am able to optimize the length so that the Smith diagram shows a dot
in the high impedance point. -- As I understood your description.
Let me recommend some more points:
1. I prefer this dialog to be placed in the main window, left column,
below TDR or above analysis
2. I tried to open the last nanaovna-saver versions on Windows 8.1
Surface Pro with screen pixels 1920 x1080. When entering the calibration
dialog, this dialog is larger than the screen and the low er elements are
cut off. -- Am I the only one who mentioned this issue?
3. the new offset should have a phase component (offset time) as well as
an attenuation component. You proposed to use it for "extending the
calibration plane to the end of the cable" -- yes, this will be nice. --
But real cables are lossy cables!
Thanks for this experimental feature. (together with all the other nice
features)
|
Dear Rune,
thank you very much for the very fast reply -- I am very pleased -- as it is your hobby to increase the usabillity of nanovna... Thanks for all!
I made my observations with the offset feature in single sweep mode --- but it may depend on my settings:
As nansnovna-saver breaks the limits of the 101 points, my ordinary setting for nanovna-saver usage is 5 segments, 3 repetitions each segment.
And this settings result in my observed fixed "recalculations".
hopefully this helps a little further to identify the responsible part of code...
And i readjusted my calibration setting for 1 segment, 0(1) repetitions and single sweep -- but, sorry to write that, with the same results (no change in the S11-smith diagram when I entered different values in the feature "offset".
I fear, I made a simple but powerful mistake during the usage of this feature ...
|
On 12/4/19 7:22 AM, Mario Vano wrote: I can't find it. What do you use for a middle mouse button on a macintosh if you have an apple two button mouse? ???? Don't know about Mac, but in Linux you would use both mouse buttons simultaneously to emulate middle mouse button.? Maybe do a web search for 'mac middle mouse button emulate'?? Or buy a different mouse?
|
Hi Run I did demo the NonoVNA-saver 0.2.1 to night I the locale HAM club and in the preparation this afternoon I tested the delay function and it seem it is not doing a correct calculation and quite big difference. Will chase how much it account for and let you know if you have forgotten a 2 times phi ? I noticed a comment a shift to the end of a cable. In my opinion the calibration should be done at the end of cable and the delay only used to shift adaptor delays and the like not the large a chunk a delay Kind regards Kurt. -----Oprindelig meddelelse----- Fra: [email protected] < [email protected]> P? vegne af Rune Broberg Sendt: 4. december 2019 12:24 Til: [email protected]; [email protected]Emne: [nanovna-users] New version of NanoVNA-Saver: 0.2.1 I have released a new version of NanoVNA-Saver, 0.2.1: <> This release is a minor update to the 0.2.0 release: New feature: Capacitance and Inductance charts These new charts display the calculated series equivalent Capacitance and Inductance against frequency. New feature: Panning and modified zooming You can now hold the middle mouse button to pan a zoomed chart, or hold shift or control to only zoom the value or frequency axis when zooming using the mouse wheel. Moving markers using the arrow keys After placing a marker on a chart by clicking with the mouse, it's now possible to move the marker immediately using the arrow keys. Experimental feature: Port extension/Offset delay The calibration window has a new experimental feature. You can set an offset delay, which I'm told is useful for compensating for cables used when measuring without doing a full calibration. The value is applied immediately when changed, and is not connected to the other calibration features. Feedback on this feature is specifically requested. Additionally, a number of bugfixes have been made, based on your feedback - Thank you! A lot of tidying has happened on the back end of the code, as well as the introduction of some automatic testing - thanks to Holger M¨¹ller and David Hunt! As ever, I look forward to hearing all your feedback and suggestions! -- Rune / 5Q5R
|
Hi Rune The dealy to enter is by a factor of ten. E.g. if the measurement plane has to be shifted backward to the calibration plane by 50.7ps the I must enter -507ps and this the sign is Ok. I used the calibration with two testcables and calibrated with the female kit setting and left the thru adaptor positioned (I had created a calibration kit file and used it) Kind regards Kurt -----Oprindelig meddelelse----- Fra: [email protected] < [email protected]> P? vegne af Rune Broberg Sendt: 4. december 2019 12:24 Til: [email protected]; [email protected]Emne: [nanovna-users] New version of NanoVNA-Saver: 0.2.1 I have released a new version of NanoVNA-Saver, 0.2.1: This release is a minor update to the 0.2.0 release: New feature: Capacitance and Inductance charts These new charts display the calculated series equivalent Capacitance and Inductance against frequency. New feature: Panning and modified zooming You can now hold the middle mouse button to pan a zoomed chart, or hold shift or control to only zoom the value or frequency axis when zooming using the mouse wheel. Moving markers using the arrow keys After placing a marker on a chart by clicking with the mouse, it's now possible to move the marker immediately using the arrow keys. Experimental feature: Port extension/Offset delay The calibration window has a new experimental feature. You can set an offset delay, which I'm told is useful for compensating for cables used when measuring without doing a full calibration. The value is applied immediately when changed, and is not connected to the other calibration features. Feedback on this feature is specifically requested. Additionally, a number of bugfixes have been made, based on your feedback - Thank you! A lot of tidying has happened on the back end of the code, as well as the introduction of some automatic testing - thanks to Holger M¨¹ller and David Hunt! As ever, I look forward to hearing all your feedback and suggestions! -- Rune / 5Q5R
|
On Wed, Dec 4, 2019 at 03:09 PM, Kurt Poulsen wrote: Kurt and Rune, I found the same thing as Kurt. I had to multiply the delay by 10. I have connector savers on my NanoVNA. They add a delay of 52 ps. as reported by Dave Kirby in an earlier post. I had to enter -520 to get the short and open to go to the two extremes on on the Smith Chart horizontal axis. Roger
Hi Rune
The dealy to enter is by a factor of ten. E.g. if the measurement plane has to
be shifted backward to the calibration plane by 50.7ps the I must enter -507ps
and this the sign is Ok.
I used the calibration with two testcables and calibrated with the female kit
setting and left the thru adaptor positioned (I had created a calibration kit
file and used it)
Kind regards
Kurt
|
Thanks the new version, experimential port extension very good news.
Of course, loss compensation option(s) requied too. But math not easy, now next entry level is easy. Good start point to advanced math.
For simple lossless port extension only required the delay. But have many way to get this. Simplest, everything is unkown, simply try and see what happen is change the delay.
If you know port extension physical lenght and velocity factor, delay easy computable. Try it, and fine tune with small delay value change. Delay, physical lenght, and velocity factor easy compute, if you know two of them. Many instrument, manuals use different method to set delay. Many uses the delay, others use electrical lenght (millimeters) and velocity factor = 1. Others use mechanical lenght (millimeters) + true velocity factor (for example 0,66).
Another differencies, some instrument use one way delay, some use two way delay. The signal from instrumnet travel to port extension end (one way delay), now if not ideally terminated, the part of signal reflected back to instrument (two way delay).
I suggest there input, delay, velocity factor, lenght. Simple check box useful (one or two way delay). More elegant, settings for delay picoseconds, nanoseconds. To lenght in millimeters, centimeters, meters, feet, inches.
If you not know the lenght or delay, and the coaxial line terminated by complex antenne or not, many times useful the tdr lenght to delay compute. Not easy the simple delay guess on real antenna + coaxial cable. TDR help a lot.
Many times good result with antenna, but sometimes fail. If you think your line between 30 to 60 meters, and you get 49,68 meter no big problem. If you get outside, something is wrong. If you disconect the far end of cable, you will have good value. If impossible disconnect, try short the antenne.
Example, 1000.000mm lenght velocity factor 1 coax cable one way delay:
1000.000/0.299792458/1 = 3335.641 picoseconds
Example, 1000.000mm lenght velocity factor 0.700 coax cable one way delay:
1000.000/0.299792458/0.700 = 4765.200 picoseconds
0.299792458 = light speed constans
Next level the loss compensation.
|
Kurt and Roger, thank you for the correction! I'm sure I've messed up the conversion from picoseconds to seconds :-) I agree that shifting to the end of a cable using the delay is not very accurate - but in some cases, it's all you can do. At least the option is there! ;-) -- Rune / 5Q5R On Thu, 5 Dec 2019 at 06:27, Roger Need via Groups.Io <sailtamarack= [email protected]> wrote: On Wed, Dec 4, 2019 at 03:09 PM, Kurt Poulsen wrote:
Kurt and Rune,
I found the same thing as Kurt. I had to multiply the delay by 10. I
have connector savers on my NanoVNA. They add a delay of 52 ps. as
reported by Dave Kirby in an earlier post. I had to enter -520 to get the
short and open to go to the two extremes on on the Smith Chart horizontal
axis.
Roger
Hi Rune
The dealy to enter is by a factor of ten. E.g. if the measurement plane
has to
be shifted backward to the calibration plane by 50.7ps the I must enter -507ps
and this the sign is Ok.
I used the calibration with two testcables and calibrated with the female kit
setting and left the thru adaptor positioned (I had created a calibration kit
file and used it)
Kind regards
Kurt
|
Hi Rune Very probably ? Regarding the comment where to place the field for delay adjustment so the calibration window does not shadow for the displays of data it is logical to have it under calibration and it is simply a matter of move the calibration window on top of the input fields to the left so it the position as default could be extremer left it would solve this shadowing issue. During the delay adjustments no need to have access to these input fields except for a new sweep Kind regards Kurt -----Oprindelig meddelelse----- Fra: [email protected] < [email protected]> P? vegne af Rune Broberg Sendt: 5. december 2019 09:32 Til: [email protected]Emne: Re: [nanovna-users] New version of NanoVNA-Saver: 0.2.1 Kurt and Roger, thank you for the correction! I'm sure I've messed up the conversion from picoseconds to seconds :-) I agree that shifting to the end of a cable using the delay is not very accurate - but in some cases, it's all you can do. At least the option is there! ;-) -- Rune / 5Q5R
On Thu, 5 Dec 2019 at 06:27, Roger Need via Groups.Io <sailtamarack= <mailto: [email protected]> [email protected]> wrote: On Wed, Dec 4, 2019 at 03:09 PM, Kurt Poulsen wrote: Kurt and Rune, I found the same thing as Kurt. I had to multiply the delay by 10. I have connector savers on my NanoVNA. They add a delay of 52 ps. as reported by Dave Kirby in an earlier post. I had to enter -520 to get the short and open to go to the two extremes on on the Smith Chart horizontal axis. Roger
Hi Rune
The dealy to enter is by a factor of ten. E.g. if the measurement
plane
has to be shifted backward to the calibration plane by 50.7ps the I must
enter
-507ps and this the sign is Ok.
I used the calibration with two testcables and calibrated with the
female kit setting and left the thru adaptor positioned (I had created a
calibration kit file and used it)
Kind regards
Kurt
|
all of these versions jitter all over the screen for the first few mins,none show the marker in the smith chart,anyone else get this?,im on win7sp1
|
Hi Rune and others First of all thank you for keeping the NanoVNA-saver a clean product sticking to "transmission delays" only all the way thru. For S11 reflections the "transmission delay" is correctly called Offset Delay and for S21 transmission delay just called Delay. This way it is so simple to manipulate delay data remembering that 20fF causes an offset delay of 1ps and 50pH causes an offset delay of 1ps when setting up the calibration kit data in the NanoVNA-saver, and nothing to think about with the new implementation of delay adjustment. Below link define why this delay definitions apply. basic knowledge about a transmission line.pdf By keeping the NanoVNA-saver clean of the "muddy business" for the user to keep track of the physical delays (forth and back to the point the reflection takes place), where is twice the Offset Delay, and only deal with one way delays we leave the rest to the developer of NanoVNA-saver and a great decision. I also hope you stick to the way extension delay as is (for the time being), as introducing loss is not at all clever, as there are so many other factors influences of doing a delay to the end of a cable, such as frequency dependent loss and frequency dependent delay in all cables, dispersion of signal in the cable, skin effect just to name a few areas for cable behavior. It is bound to fail and not really relevant for the nanoVNA not having facilities for a full 12 term error correction either. That was just my hubble thinking this morning Kind regards Kurt -----Oprindelig meddelelse----- Fra: [email protected] < [email protected]> P? vegne af Rune Broberg Sendt: 5. december 2019 09:32 Til: [email protected]Emne: Re: [nanovna-users] New version of NanoVNA-Saver: 0.2.1 Kurt and Roger, thank you for the correction! I'm sure I've messed up the conversion from picoseconds to seconds :-) I agree that shifting to the end of a cable using the delay is not very accurate - but in some cases, it's all you can do. At least the option is there! ;-) -- Rune / 5Q5R
On Thu, 5 Dec 2019 at 06:27, Roger Need via Groups.Io <sailtamarack= [email protected]> wrote: On Wed, Dec 4, 2019 at 03:09 PM, Kurt Poulsen wrote:
Kurt and Rune,
I found the same thing as Kurt. I had to multiply the delay by 10. I
have connector savers on my NanoVNA. They add a delay of 52 ps. as
reported by Dave Kirby in an earlier post. I had to enter -520 to get the
short and open to go to the two extremes on on the Smith Chart
horizontal axis.
Roger
Hi Rune
The dealy to enter is by a factor of ten. E.g. if the measurement
plane
has to
be shifted backward to the calibration plane by 50.7ps the I must
enter -507ps
and this the sign is Ok.
I used the calibration with two testcables and calibrated with the female kit
setting and left the thru adaptor positioned (I had created a calibration kit
file and used it)
Kind regards
Kurt
|
Hi Kurt Poulsen,
I understand you, but something is false. Best way the fully calibrated instrument. But if not available, for example if can not do osl far end calibration port extension useful. This is exist industrial vna too. See keysight notes. Of course not ideal. But better than none. Many complex coaxial line model and correction available.
|
Rune,
I appreciate all the work you have done developing and sharing this program. Really looking forward to the next version of your program when you have fully implemented the "offset delay" feature. It is a useful thing to have when using port extenders (connector savers) or when adding short, quality adapters to a previously calibrated setup. Those attempting to use it to compensate for cable length will need to consider the issues associated with cable loss etc. discussed above and use this feature with caution.
|
Wolfgang Kiefer
Jim Allyn - N7JA
Kurt Poulsen
Roger Need