This look suitable?
--
Todd K Stearns
|
Lots of replies, thanks to all.
A few points.
1. I'm not doing the wiring, my back prevents me from doing anything under the layout.
I'm just trying to make sure I have an ample supply for the guy that is going to do it it.
It's a tight window, he has two days available to do it so i have to have wire in advance.
2. All track bus wires and drops from track to bus are already in. Just need to run one set of wires
from control panel toggle switches to each block section and yard track.
3. Right now trains are run with just one set of 20 gauge temporary wires from power pack to the mainline
bus wires.? Half way around the layout, the mainline heads through a 12 track yard.
Trains do slow down a bit in some yard tracks with this temporary wiring. When final wiring is done, yard
tracks will each have their own wires from the control panel to them. These will be no longer than 7 feet long.
I think that should eliminate trains slowing on the yard tracks.
I do not have enough wire at the moment. Does everyone think I would be okay using 18 gauge wire for the farthest
reaches and 20 for the closer runs? This would be for Tortoises and block wiring to the control panel. If so I'll just get
18 gauge wire for the rest of what I need and all should be well.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 3/16/2025 4:15 PM, Jeffrey Reynolds wrote: Todd,
If you are just powering the tortoise motors from a dc source and flipping polarity with a control board dpdt switch you should be fine running 20g wire out to your tortoise switch machines, i don’t think they draw much power at all.
But to verify just cut a chunk of your 20g wire the length of your longest run [sounds like around 17’] and just test it with a toggle switch wired to your power supply for the points and the other end to any easily accessible tortoise point [or a spare on the bench if you have one]. You should have negligible power drop in 20’ of 20g at lower amperage im guessing a tortoise motor draws. Wont matter how many you end up wiring up as each is its own circuit from the power supply thru your toggle switch on the control board and then out to the point motor. Only issue could be if you try throwing a whole bunch at once and try to pull more power than your power supply can put out, but thats not a factor of the wire gauge on each circuit as each circuit is just feeding one point motor.
10g or 12g would be way overkill to just wire a tortoise point and very bulky feeding into your control panel for a number of points.
Cheers
Jeff
On Mar 16, 2025, at 2:47?PM, Todd K Stearns <toddsyr@...> wrote:
?Hi folks,
After many years at getting to this stage, I'm about ready to start having my Tortoise switch machines
and my track block sections wired up to my control panel.
All of my track currently has bus wires and feeders installed. Cuts will be made into the track to isolate
the block sections. Tortoise switch machines already in, just need to be connected to the control panel toggles.
Here's the questions:
What gauge wire should I use going to the control panel toggles to the Tortoise switch machines?
Wire length will range from 3' to 17'.
What gauge wire should I use going to the control panel toggles to the track block bus wires?
Wire length will range from 4' to 16'.
I have on hand 400' of 20 gauge and smaller amounts of 20 and 12 gauge wires.
Thanks for any assistance provided.
--
Todd K Stearns
--
Todd K Stearns
|
Todd,
If you are just powering the tortoise motors from a dc source and flipping polarity with a control board dpdt switch you should be fine running 20g wire out to your tortoise switch machines, i don’t think they draw much power at all.
But to verify just cut a chunk of your 20g wire the length of your longest run [sounds like around 17’] and just test it with a toggle switch wired to your power supply for the points and the other end to any easily accessible tortoise point [or a spare on the bench if you have one]. You should have negligible power drop in 20’ of 20g at lower amperage im guessing a tortoise motor draws. Wont matter how many you end up wiring up as each is its own circuit from the power supply thru your toggle switch on the control board and then out to the point motor. Only issue could be if you try throwing a whole bunch at once and try to pull more power than your power supply can put out, but thats not a factor of the wire gauge on each circuit as each circuit is just feeding one point motor.
10g or 12g would be way overkill to just wire a tortoise point and very bulky feeding into your control panel for a number of points.
Cheers
Jeff
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Mar 16, 2025, at 2:47?PM, Todd K Stearns <toddsyr@...> wrote:
?Hi folks,
After many years at getting to this stage, I'm about ready to start having my Tortoise switch machines
and my track block sections wired up to my control panel.
All of my track currently has bus wires and feeders installed. Cuts will be made into the track to isolate
the block sections. Tortoise switch machines already in, just need to be connected to the control panel toggles.
Here's the questions:
What gauge wire should I use going to the control panel toggles to the Tortoise switch machines?
Wire length will range from 3' to 17'.
What gauge wire should I use going to the control panel toggles to the track block bus wires?
Wire length will range from 4' to 16'.
I have on hand 400' of 20 gauge and smaller amounts of 20 and 12 gauge wires.
Thanks for any assistance provided.
--
Todd K Stearns
|
I use 12 gauge for the buses and 20 gauge for the drops. The lower the gauge number the larger the wire. Lessens the voltage drops from the controler (Either DC or DCC)
Ira
Quoting Todd K Stearns <toddsyr@...>:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Yes, buses go around the whole layout, directly under each track. Many can be attached to control panel toggles within a few feet.
A few blocks will require longer wire runs.
?Right now the layout is powered with a lone set of feeder wires for each main line track. There is a bit of a voltage drop when about 1/2 way around the layout
on some of the yard tracks. Not all though. This makes me think the 20 gauge wire will be fine since there will be many more connections.
Common rail? No, not using that method. Maybe I'm wrong, but using common rail method might not work as well with potential voltage drops etc.
On 3/16/2025 3:17 PM, Douglas Gosha via groups.io wrote:
OK, so do the buses actually go around the whole layout and end up near the control panel? Are you using common rail? I;m assuming you are using DC. If so, connecting the block bus to the control panel common takes care of that side and the wire gauge doesn't need to be that large if it's a short distance.
On my 4 X 8 foot layout, I'm pretty sure I just used 20 gauge for the hot side from the block switch to the block rail and it works fine. If you have blocks 17 feet away, you might need 18 gauge but I think I would try 20 gauge on one block and see what the voltage drop is.
Doug
In a message dated 3/16/2025 2:00:17 PM Central Daylight Time, toddsyr@... writes:
Bus wire is 12 gauge.
On 3/16/2025 2:54 PM, Douglas Gosha via groups.io wrote:
Hi Todd,
You say the buses are already installed. What gauge are they?
Doug
In a message dated 3/16/2025 1:51:54 PM Central Daylight Time,
toddsyr@... <mailto:toddsyr@...> writes:
The line near the bottom should read:
"I have on hand 400' of 20 gauge and smaller amounts of 10 and
12 gauge
wires."
On 3/16/2025 2:46 PM, Todd K Stearns wrote:
> Hi folks,
>
> ?After many years at getting to this stage, I'm about ready
to start
> having my Tortoise switch machines
>
> and my track block sections wired up to my control panel.
>
>
> ?All of my track currently has bus wires and feeders
installed. Cuts
> will be made into the track to isolate
>
> the block sections. Tortoise switch machines already in,
just need to
> be connected to the control panel toggles.
>
>
> ?Here's the questions:
>
> What gauge wire should I use going to the control panel
toggles to the
> Tortoise switch machines?
>
> Wire length will range from 3' to 17'.
>
> What gauge wire should I use going to the control panel
toggles to the
> track block bus wires?
>
> Wire length will range from 4' to 16'.
>
> I have on hand 400' of 20 gauge and smaller amounts of 20
and 12 gauge
> wires.
>
> Thanks for any assistance provided.
>
--
Todd K Stearns
-- Todd K Stearns
--
Todd K Stearns
|
Yes, buses go around the whole layout, directly under each track.
Many can be attached to control panel toggles within a few feet.
A few blocks will require longer wire runs.
?Right now the layout is powered with a lone set of feeder wires
for each main line track. There is a bit of a voltage drop when
about 1/2 way around the layout
on some of the yard tracks. Not all though. This makes me think
the 20 gauge wire will be fine since there will be many more
connections.
Common rail? No, not using that method. Maybe I'm wrong, but
using common rail method might not work as well with potential
voltage drops etc.?
On 3/16/2025 3:17 PM, Douglas Gosha via
groups.io wrote:
OK,
so do the buses actually go around the whole layout and end
up near the control panel? Are you using common rail? I;m
assuming you are using DC. If so, connecting the block bus
to the control panel common takes care of that side and the
wire gauge doesn't need to be that large if it's a short
distance.
?
On
my 4 X 8 foot layout, I'm pretty sure I just used 20 gauge
for the hot side from the block switch to the block rail and
it works fine. If you have blocks 17 feet away, you might
need 18 gauge but I think I would try 20 gauge on one block
and see what the voltage drop is.
?
Doug
In a message dated 3/16/2025 2:00:17 PM Central Daylight Time,
toddsyr@... writes:
?
Bus wire is 12 gauge.
On 3/16/2025
2:54 PM, Douglas Gosha via groups.io wrote:
Hi
Todd,
?
You
say the buses are already installed. What gauge
are they?
?
Doug
In a message dated 3/16/2025 1:51:54 PM Central
Daylight Time, toddsyr@...
writes:
?
The line near the bottom should
read:
?
"I have on hand 400' of 20 gauge
and smaller amounts of 10 and 12 gauge
wires."
?
?
On 3/16/2025 2:46 PM, Todd K
Stearns wrote:
> Hi folks,
>
> ?After many years at getting
to this stage, I'm about ready to start
> having my Tortoise switch
machines
>
> and my track block sections
wired up to my control panel.
>
>
> ?All of my track currently has
bus wires and feeders installed. Cuts
> will be made into the track to
isolate
>
> the block sections. Tortoise
switch machines already in, just need to
> be connected to the control
panel toggles.
>
>
> ?Here's the questions:
>
> What gauge wire should I use
going to the control panel toggles to the
> Tortoise switch machines?
>
> Wire length will range from 3'
to 17'.
>
> What gauge wire should I use
going to the control panel toggles to the
> track block bus wires?
>
> Wire length will range from 4'
to 16'.
>
> I have on hand 400' of 20
gauge and smaller amounts of 20 and 12 gauge
> wires.
>
> Thanks for any assistance
provided.
>
--
Todd K Stearns
?
?
?
?
?
--
Todd K Stearns
--
Todd K Stearns
|
OK, so do the buses actually go around the whole layout and end up near the control panel? Are you using common rail? I;m assuming you are using DC. If so, connecting the block bus to the control panel common takes care of that side and the wire gauge doesn't need to be that large if it's a short distance.
?
On my 4 X 8 foot layout, I'm pretty sure I just used 20 gauge for the hot side from the block switch to the block rail and it works fine. If you have blocks 17 feet away, you might need 18 gauge but I think I would try 20 gauge on one block and see what the voltage drop is.
?
Doug
In a message dated 3/16/2025 2:00:17 PM Central Daylight Time, toddsyr@... writes:
?
Bus wire is 12 gauge.
On 3/16/2025 2:54 PM, Douglas Gosha via groups.io wrote:
Hi Todd,
?
You say the buses are already installed. What gauge are they?
?
Doug
In a message dated 3/16/2025 1:51:54 PM Central Daylight Time, toddsyr@... writes:
?
The line near the bottom should read:
?
"I have on hand 400' of 20 gauge and smaller amounts of 10 and 12 gauge
wires."
?
?
On 3/16/2025 2:46 PM, Todd K Stearns wrote:
> Hi folks,
>
> ?After many years at getting to this stage, I'm about ready to start
> having my Tortoise switch machines
>
> and my track block sections wired up to my control panel.
>
>
> ?All of my track currently has bus wires and feeders installed. Cuts
> will be made into the track to isolate
>
> the block sections. Tortoise switch machines already in, just need to
> be connected to the control panel toggles.
>
>
> ?Here's the questions:
>
> What gauge wire should I use going to the control panel toggles to the
> Tortoise switch machines?
>
> Wire length will range from 3' to 17'.
>
> What gauge wire should I use going to the control panel toggles to the
> track block bus wires?
>
> Wire length will range from 4' to 16'.
>
> I have on hand 400' of 20 gauge and smaller amounts of 20 and 12 gauge
> wires.
>
> Thanks for any assistance provided.
>
--
Todd K Stearns
?
?
?
?
?
--
Todd K Stearns
|
Bus wire is 12 gauge.
On 3/16/2025 2:54 PM, Douglas Gosha via
groups.io wrote:
Hi
Todd,
?
You
say the buses are already installed. What gauge are they?
?
Doug
In a message dated 3/16/2025 1:51:54 PM Central Daylight Time,
toddsyr@... writes:
?
The line near the bottom should read:
?
"I have on hand 400' of 20 gauge and smaller
amounts of 10 and 12 gauge
wires."
?
?
On 3/16/2025 2:46 PM, Todd K Stearns wrote:
> Hi folks,
>
> ?After many years at getting to this
stage, I'm about ready to start
> having my Tortoise switch machines
>
> and my track block sections wired up to
my control panel.
>
>
> ?All of my track currently has bus wires
and feeders installed. Cuts
> will be made into the track to isolate
>
> the block sections. Tortoise switch
machines already in, just need to
> be connected to the control panel
toggles.
>
>
> ?Here's the questions:
>
> What gauge wire should I use going to
the control panel toggles to the
> Tortoise switch machines?
>
> Wire length will range from 3' to 17'.
>
> What gauge wire should I use going to
the control panel toggles to the
> track block bus wires?
>
> Wire length will range from 4' to 16'.
>
> I have on hand 400' of 20 gauge and
smaller amounts of 20 and 12 gauge
> wires.
>
> Thanks for any assistance provided.
>
--
Todd K Stearns
?
?
?
?
?
--
Todd K Stearns
|
Hi Todd,
?
You say the buses are already installed. What gauge are they?
?
Doug
In a message dated 3/16/2025 1:51:54 PM Central Daylight Time, toddsyr@... writes:
?
The line near the bottom should read:
?
"I have on hand 400' of 20 gauge and smaller amounts of 10 and 12 gauge
wires."
?
?
On 3/16/2025 2:46 PM, Todd K Stearns wrote:
> Hi folks,
>
> ?After many years at getting to this stage, I'm about ready to start
> having my Tortoise switch machines
>
> and my track block sections wired up to my control panel.
>
>
> ?All of my track currently has bus wires and feeders installed. Cuts
> will be made into the track to isolate
>
> the block sections. Tortoise switch machines already in, just need to
> be connected to the control panel toggles.
>
>
> ?Here's the questions:
>
> What gauge wire should I use going to the control panel toggles to the
> Tortoise switch machines?
>
> Wire length will range from 3' to 17'.
>
> What gauge wire should I use going to the control panel toggles to the
> track block bus wires?
>
> Wire length will range from 4' to 16'.
>
> I have on hand 400' of 20 gauge and smaller amounts of 20 and 12 gauge
> wires.
>
> Thanks for any assistance provided.
>
--
Todd K Stearns
?
?
?
?
?
|
The line near the bottom should read:
"I have on hand 400' of 20 gauge and smaller amounts of 10 and 12 gauge wires."
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 3/16/2025 2:46 PM, Todd K Stearns wrote: Hi folks,
?After many years at getting to this stage, I'm about ready to start having my Tortoise switch machines
and my track block sections wired up to my control panel.
?All of my track currently has bus wires and feeders installed. Cuts will be made into the track to isolate
the block sections. Tortoise switch machines already in, just need to be connected to the control panel toggles.
?Here's the questions:
What gauge wire should I use going to the control panel toggles to the Tortoise switch machines?
Wire length will range from 3' to 17'.
What gauge wire should I use going to the control panel toggles to the track block bus wires?
Wire length will range from 4' to 16'.
I have on hand 400' of 20 gauge and smaller amounts of 20 and 12 gauge wires.
Thanks for any assistance provided.
--
Todd K Stearns
|
Hi folks,
?After many years at getting to this stage, I'm about ready to start having my Tortoise switch machines
and my track block sections wired up to my control panel.
?All of my track currently has bus wires and feeders installed. Cuts will be made into the track to isolate
the block sections. Tortoise switch machines already in, just need to be connected to the control panel toggles.
?Here's the questions:
What gauge wire should I use going to the control panel toggles to the Tortoise switch machines?
Wire length will range from 3' to 17'.
What gauge wire should I use going to the control panel toggles to the track block bus wires?
Wire length will range from 4' to 16'.
I have on hand 400' of 20 gauge and smaller amounts of 20 and 12 gauge wires.
Thanks for any assistance provided.
--
Todd K Stearns
|
Hi Stefano,
You will have to diagram what you suggest as I cannot imagine one
that would make a difference.
I was taught that you should not use solder for mechanical
purposes.
The throw bar primary has reliability problems because it is
under pressure and flexed every time you throw the turnout.?
Solder works best in sheer but is still vulnerable to failure by
fatigue.? The idea of using copper or wire or a surface mount
resistor is to put something stiff and durable to take the side
forces of pushing the points against the stock rails.
Only time will tell as to whether what I am doing works better.?
So far I only have one turnout with the wire and no turnouts built
with the resistors.? Got about three months on the wire far.? So
at least it seems that it is not reducing reliability.
All the other solders are not under pressure and rarely get
flexed.? I have never seen one of these joints fail.
Best,
Ken Harstine
On 3/13/2025 7:44 PM, StefanoC via
groups.io wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Ken?
?
I was thinking to spotweld the outside rails… the ones that
get a lot of welds and therefore flux.
good idea for the throwbars.?
The throw bars are weak because solder is very thin under the
points. I always thought I can design pcbs and put two large
vias, 0.7mm hole exactly under the points and then fill up the
vias from the bottom with silver bearing leaded solder. Once the
whole columns are full, the joints are very strong upon pull and
shear. You don’t need 0.7mm necessarily. Solder will enter per
capillarity if hole is at least 0.25mm but the larger the better
but not too large otherwise the throw bar becomes weak.
?
i could even put an extra pad hole for the tortoise.
?
wanna experiments ? Maybe time for an order at jlcpcb !
|
Ken?
?
I was thinking to spotweld the outside rails… the ones that get a lot of welds and therefore flux.
good idea for the throwbars.?
The throw bars are weak because solder is very thin under the points. I always thought I can design pcbs and put two large vias, 0.7mm hole exactly under the points and then fill up the vias from the bottom with silver bearing leaded solder. Once the whole columns are full, the joints are very strong upon pull and shear. You don’t need 0.7mm necessarily. Solder will enter per capillarity if hole is at least 0.25mm but the larger the better but not too large otherwise the throw bar becomes weak.
?
i could even put an extra pad hole for the tortoise.
?
wanna experiments ? Maybe time for an order at jlcpcb !
|
Interesting idea.
The only weak place for the soldered turnouts that I have found
is on the throw bar.? This should not need adjustment and so is a
prime candidate.
I created a line of PCB ties that uses a loop of wire as a back
stop.
The first image shows my first pass and
the points were much too wide.? That has been corrected going
forward.
I am in the process of testing the use
of a surface mount resister instead of the wire as above.
Here is a cheap spot welding tool.
No idea how well it works.
Best Regards,
Ken Harstine
DBA Voltscooter.com
On 3/12/2025 2:17 PM, StefanoC via
groups.io wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
hi fellas
?
has somebody tried to spot weld the rail to the PCBs ties ? I
have a bunch of fast trak jigs and most of turnout parts dont
need adjustment after installation. Fusing copper to
nickel-silver (nickel-copper alloy) would create a much stronger
bond that the solder joint (lead-tin normal or silver hardened
if using higher temp) and lack of flux would prevent corrosion..
I can see some manufacturers spot welding wires to joiners
already.
?
thanks
Stefano
?
|
hi fellas
?
has somebody tried to spot weld the rail to the PCBs ties ? I have a bunch of fast trak jigs and most of turnout parts dont need adjustment after installation. Fusing copper to nickel-silver (nickel-copper alloy) would create a much stronger bond that the solder joint (lead-tin normal or silver hardened if using higher temp) and lack of flux would prevent corrosion.. I can see some manufacturers spot welding wires to joiners already.
?
thanks
Stefano
?
|
kato sd40-2 mid production
Dear All,
?
if you have a kato sd40-2 mid production (not early), can you make a picture of the exploded part diagram and send it to me here ? Just checking how to fit some DCC board.
?
thanks
Stefano
?
|
While I have the Atlas turntable and a swap meet version of the Peco turntable, I am thinking in terms of a Strictly Manual turntable. ?I've seen images where what looks like a wooden wheel is used to turn the turntable. ?This is for a smallish operational layout (roughly 7' x 11' u-shape). ?Does anyone have any experience with doing this and what are the challenges and pitfalls to be expected.
?
While I have the turntable a little inboard of the edge of the layout as planned, I can probably adjust the location a bit if that will make doing the manual operations easier/more efficient, etc.
?
And, please, I am not looking for 'better to go DCC' or 'just use indexing' advice. ?I really want to do it manually if I can. ?Just need to be able to align properly (index) and reverse polarity. ?Only three stall roundhouse, shoreline bridge route layout circa 1925 - 2-8-2 with tender, 9 40' cars and a wooden caboose would be a typical train - I believe in the philosophy that a train should fit the space and that is what works for me. ?N scale isn't just for broad curves and long trains.
?
Thanks!
|
Re: MTL True Scale Couplers?
They do look better, but they will not couple with either normal N or Nn3/Z couplers. I usually use Nn3/Z scale couplers for steam engine pilots.
V/R
Larry P. Card
Franklinton NC
? ?_________
./___________\.
(]]]___o___[[[)
|\_o_______o_/|
|__|.......|__|
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: n-scale@groups.io <n-scale@groups.io> on behalf of Martin Young <martiny@...>
Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2025 2:45 AM
To: 'windmillman_nc@...' <windmillman_nc@...>
Cc: 'n-scale@groups.io' <n-scale@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [n-scale] MTL True Scale Couplers?
?
I use True Scale couplers on the pilots of steam engines, they look better and will couple with normal MT couplers if I need to double head.
Marty San Diego, CA
-----------------------------------------
From: "boB Milback via groups.io"
To: n-scale@groups.io
Cc:
Sent: Tuesday February 25 2025 1:53:22PM
Subject: [n-scale] MTL True Scale Couplers?
Anyone convert their collection to the "MTL True Scale Couplers"?
Was it hard?
Was it worth it?
?
TIA
--
|
Re: MTL True Scale Couplers?
I use True Scale couplers on the pilots of steam engines, they look better and will couple with normal MT couplers if I need to double head.
Marty San Diego, CA
----------------------------------------- From: "boB Milback via groups.io" To: n-scale@groups.io Cc: Sent: Tuesday February 25 2025 1:53:22PM Subject: [n-scale] MTL True Scale Couplers?
Anyone convert their collection to the "MTL True Scale
Couplers"?
Was it hard?
Was it worth it?
?
TIA
--
|
Re: MTL True Scale Couplers?
I have converted a number of my MTL Runner Packs. It is not difficult if you have already converted the cars to body mount couplers (1027's). A bit more work if you haven't. I convert all of the couplers in the Runner Packs to True Scale Couplers except
for 2 cars. On these I have True Scale on one end and 1027's on the other. The 1027's are at each end of the runner Pack.
The Runner Packs do look better with True Scale couplers but beware. They are not so good on longer cars. They have limited sideways movement so tend to derail the cars unless your track radius is quite large. I have 15" radius curves, and 50" cars can be
an issue.
Is it worth? Not an easy question to answer. I have a number of Runner Packs, one with 16 Reefers. The True Scales look really nice on these packs. I will probably convert all of my Runner Packs as I will normally run them together. I doubt I will convert
all of my cars to True Scale although I have already converted all of them to body mounts (1027's). If I get to the stage where I have nothing else to do, I might think about.
I hope this is helpful...............George.? ?
|
I am looking for someone who can kit bash a vista dome observation car for the CB&Q Denver Zephyr. It was different than a regular rounded end dome as it was flat and had a rear door. They could be used in the middle of a train as well as the observation car. I am unable to do this due to health problems. Send me your info if interested and we can talk about it. I have some information on how to build one from a Con Cor coach and a Kato dome car.
|
Todd K Stearns
Ken Harstine
Larry