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Locked New to group and quest for loop¡­ #160

 

Hi all, I¡¯m Jeff, KF5KWO, near San Antonio, TX. I¡¯ve been using the MFJ-1786 (30-10m) for about 20 years now, and due to HOA restrictions in the two neighborhoods I¡¯ve lived in, it was my main HF antenna along with a homebrew 40m stealth wire vertical and a recently added stealth 10m Moxon. I¡¯m very interested in getting on 160, but want to do so with a magnetic loop because I like the experimentation and the relatively smaller space requirements. Been doing lots of reading and watching of videos, for sure. Happy to hear any advice from everyone! 73 de Jeff, KF5KWO
 

Hi Jeff

Welcome to group

Where to start!!??

First good luck with that.. making a 160m tx capable mag loop with any efficiency is not for the faint hearted..making it hoa adds yet another issue..

I would try a stealth wire, loaded etc..small trap and more wire added to your 40m vertical?

How hoa are you? What space do you have etc.??

The main issue one will find with a mag loop, even one say 6m dia will be bandwidth, hiding it , size of tuning cap, controlling it ( it will drift in frequency if loop flexes, moves, heat etc..)

Now not saying it can¡¯t be done! It can ( hoa though????)
I use a big mag loop on 160-80m.. qro capable, can work USA on phone in winter.All Europe all year..But its BIG..heavy..expensive to make and still only had a bandwidth on top band on just 2khz..it is a 2 turn 3.5m dia loop..350pf vac cap at top.

You could make it smaller by say a 3 turn loop or a 4 turn BUT efficiency really drops..but it will work..just not well..maybe worse than just loading the 40m vertical you have..( easier, cheaper..?)

Simon g0zen ( see qrz for pics of my big loop and an older pic of 40 m twin turn..( that was compact, but the single turn version now in use is much better.)

Also may help to post your questions on magloop group as well..

So how hoa are you etc??
 

Try this loop antenna design by Jeri Ellsworth (AI6TK). She made a video regarding a 160 meter loop that was supposed to be in two parts but has only made a video of the first part of it but I am sure you can get the point after the first video of the size of such a 160 loop especially to have 2 turns as the size would still be about 8 foot across and probably would have to be put in a spare room or outside somewhere inconspicuous.?



On Sun, Oct 23, 2022 at 5:51 AM Simon <ohhellnotagain@...> wrote:
Hi Jeff

Welcome to group

Where to start!!??

First good luck with that.. making a 160m tx capable mag loop with any efficiency is not for the faint hearted..making it hoa adds yet another issue..

I would try a stealth wire, loaded etc..small trap and more wire added to your 40m vertical?

How hoa are you? What space do you have etc.??

The main issue one will find with a mag loop, even one say 6m dia will be bandwidth, hiding it , size of tuning cap, controlling it ( it will drift in frequency if loop flexes, moves, heat etc..)

Now not saying it can¡¯t be done! It can ( hoa though????)
I use a big mag loop on 160-80m.. qro capable, can work USA on phone in winter.All Europe all year..But its BIG..heavy..expensive to make and still only had a bandwidth on top band on just 2khz..it is a 2 turn 3.5m dia loop..350pf vac cap at top.

You could make it smaller by say a 3 turn loop or a 4 turn BUT efficiency really drops..but it will work..just not well..maybe worse than just loading the 40m vertical you have..( easier, cheaper..?)

Simon g0zen ( see qrz for pics of my big loop and an older pic of 40 m twin turn..( that was compact, but the single turn version now in use is much better.)

Also may help to post your questions on magloop group as well..

So how hoa are you etc??




 

Hi

Why anyone would want to put any antenna indoors especially a magloop is questionable ( or unavoidable.)

It will couple to everything..needs to be outside..especially as 160m ( lots of electrical man made noise.)

It can be hid though ( painted green etc) and can be close to gnd..obviously higher 2m? Is better, but it will work say at 1m above gnd. JUST BE sure no one can touch it while txing!!

Simon
 

I've did it relatively successfully over the years and I've seen others do it that way as well. I know this much and I've had plenty of 2000 to 6000 mile contacts over the years using Magnetic Loops indoors at relatively low wattages under 100 watts. It can be done plus here in the states we have a lot of lightning prone areas where you might not want to have your mag loop outside and be able to use it in an attic or somewhere that isn't so conspicuous. One problem here in the United States is the increasingly influence of the local antenna police called HOA or commonly known as homeowner associations. Therefore there are many hams who cannot because of their local environment be able to put a funky looking loop outside even on their patio or some other place around their property even with them owning their property that they are still subject to HOA rules due to it being a requirement for such ownership of said property.?

Many Americans these days live in apartments as well and some of the restrictions that come with boilerplate leases and renting also involve restrictions on any outside antenna including anything that would be much more than the basic satellite dish of maximum of one meter or approximately 40 inches in diameter. Anything else is seriously prohibited in many rental agreements or even by landlords who do not want antennas visible in their properties. So therefore ham radio operators and shortwave enthusiasts often have to conceal these antennas from spying eyes or nosy neighbors or overbearing landlords, apartment police or such ne'er do wells that have nothing better to do than serve as the local auxiliary police force of the local apartment complex or the neighborhood due to the HOA.?

One can use these loops to receive signals from thousands of miles away with quite acceptable results like my reception daily of Radio New Zealand from 13000 kilometers or 8200 miles away with S9 plus signal on a daily basis just using a Yaesu FRG-100B receiver with a small 4 foot magnetic loop with quite good results. Then again I've also used magnetic loops to contact many stations in Europe and Russia which are both well over 4000 miles/7000 kilometers away in the case of Europe as well as much as 7000 miles/10000 kilometers away to Russia or even Japan which is 10000 km away or 6000-6500 miles away.?

I've also worked a little over 100 countries using indoor antenna such as a 200 foot longwire?ran around a ceiling and fed into a 9 to 1 balun for a number of years as well and also achieved a great deal of success with working long distance DX.? I'll take my results for now and when my situation changes in the future will probably be putting up something outdoors but for now what I have works. I might also add that I've also worked a great deal of these same countries with a mobile station in my automobile over many years as well including 6000 mile contacts to Russia on occasion when the conditions are right.

On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 11:21 AM Simon <ohhellnotagain@...> wrote:
Hi

Why anyone would want to put any antenna indoors especially a magloop is questionable ( or unavoidable.)

It will couple to everything..needs to be? outside..especially as 160m ( lots of electrical man made? noise.)

It can be hid though ( painted green etc) and can be close to gnd..obviously higher 2m? Is better, but it will work say at 1m? above gnd. JUST BE sure no one can touch it while txing!!

Simon




 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

I thought that congress and the FCC directed that all HOAs cannot ban all antennas.?

Alan - W6ARH

On 10/24/2022 7:03 PM, John Perry wrote:

I've did it relatively successfully over the years and I've seen others do it that way as well. I know this much and I've had plenty of 2000 to 6000 mile contacts over the years using Magnetic Loops indoors at relatively low wattages under 100 watts. It can be done plus here in the states we have a lot of lightning prone areas where you might not want to have your mag loop outside and be able to use it in an attic or somewhere that isn't so conspicuous. One problem here in the United States is the increasingly influence of the local antenna police called HOA or commonly known as homeowner associations. Therefore there are many hams who cannot because of their local environment be able to put a funky looking loop outside even on their patio or some other place around their property even with them owning their property that they are still subject to HOA rules due to it being a requirement for such ownership of said property.?

Many Americans these days live in apartments as well and some of the restrictions that come with boilerplate leases and renting also involve restrictions on any outside antenna including anything that would be much more than the basic satellite dish of maximum of one meter or approximately 40 inches in diameter. Anything else is seriously prohibited in many rental agreements or even by landlords who do not want antennas visible in their properties. So therefore ham radio operators and shortwave enthusiasts often have to conceal these antennas from spying eyes or nosy neighbors or overbearing landlords, apartment police or such ne'er do wells that have nothing better to do than serve as the local auxiliary police force of the local apartment complex or the neighborhood due to the HOA.?

One can use these loops to receive signals from thousands of miles away with quite acceptable results like my reception daily of Radio New Zealand from 13000 kilometers or 8200 miles away with S9 plus signal on a daily basis just using a Yaesu FRG-100B receiver with a small 4 foot magnetic loop with quite good results. Then again I've also used magnetic loops to contact many stations in Europe and Russia which are both well over 4000 miles/7000 kilometers away in the case of Europe as well as much as 7000 miles/10000 kilometers away to Russia or even Japan which is 10000 km away or 6000-6500 miles away.?

I've also worked a little over 100 countries using indoor antenna such as a 200 foot longwire?ran around a ceiling and fed into a 9 to 1 balun for a number of years as well and also achieved a great deal of success with working long distance DX.? I'll take my results for now and when my situation changes in the future will probably be putting up something outdoors but for now what I have works. I might also add that I've also worked a great deal of these same countries with a mobile station in my automobile over many years as well including 6000 mile contacts to Russia on occasion when the conditions are right.

On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 11:21 AM Simon <ohhellnotagain@...> wrote:
Hi

Why anyone would want to put any antenna indoors especially a magloop is questionable ( or unavoidable.)

It will couple to everything..needs to be? outside..especially as 160m ( lots of electrical man made? noise.)

It can be hid though ( painted green etc) and can be close to gnd..obviously higher 2m? Is better, but it will work say at 1m? above gnd. JUST BE sure no one can touch it while txing!!

Simon




 



On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 10:44 PM Silverfox <alan.r.hill@...> wrote:

I thought that congress and the FCC directed that all HOAs cannot ban all antennas.?

Alan - W6ARH

On 10/24/2022 7:03 PM, John Perry wrote:
I've did it relatively successfully over the years and I've seen others do it that way as well. I know this much and I've had plenty of 2000 to 6000 mile contacts over the years using Magnetic Loops indoors at relatively low wattages under 100 watts. It can be done plus here in the states we have a lot of lightning prone areas where you might not want to have your mag loop outside and be able to use it in an attic or somewhere that isn't so conspicuous. One problem here in the United States is the increasingly influence of the local antenna police called HOA or commonly known as homeowner associations. Therefore there are many hams who cannot because of their local environment be able to put a funky looking loop outside even on their patio or some other place around their property even with them owning their property that they are still subject to HOA rules due to it being a requirement for such ownership of said property.?

Many Americans these days live in apartments as well and some of the restrictions that come with boilerplate leases and renting also involve restrictions on any outside antenna including anything that would be much more than the basic satellite dish of maximum of one meter or approximately 40 inches in diameter. Anything else is seriously prohibited in many rental agreements or even by landlords who do not want antennas visible in their properties. So therefore ham radio operators and shortwave enthusiasts often have to conceal these antennas from spying eyes or nosy neighbors or overbearing landlords, apartment police or such ne'er do wells that have nothing better to do than serve as the local auxiliary police force of the local apartment complex or the neighborhood due to the HOA.?

One can use these loops to receive signals from thousands of miles away with quite acceptable results like my reception daily of Radio New Zealand from 13000 kilometers or 8200 miles away with S9 plus signal on a daily basis just using a Yaesu FRG-100B receiver with a small 4 foot magnetic loop with quite good results. Then again I've also used magnetic loops to contact many stations in Europe and Russia which are both well over 4000 miles/7000 kilometers away in the case of Europe as well as much as 7000 miles/10000 kilometers away to Russia or even Japan which is 10000 km away or 6000-6500 miles away.?

I've also worked a little over 100 countries using indoor antenna such as a 200 foot longwire?ran around a ceiling and fed into a 9 to 1 balun for a number of years as well and also achieved a great deal of success with working long distance DX.? I'll take my results for now and when my situation changes in the future will probably be putting up something outdoors but for now what I have works. I might also add that I've also worked a great deal of these same countries with a mobile station in my automobile over many years as well including 6000 mile contacts to Russia on occasion when the conditions are right.

On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 11:21 AM Simon <ohhellnotagain@...> wrote:
Hi

Why anyone would want to put any antenna indoors especially a magloop is questionable ( or unavoidable.)

It will couple to everything..needs to be? outside..especially as 160m ( lots of electrical man made? noise.)

It can be hid though ( painted green etc) and can be close to gnd..obviously higher 2m? Is better, but it will work say at 1m? above gnd. JUST BE sure no one can touch it while txing!!

Simon




 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

Hi John,
Would you share with our community how to break laws of electrodynamics and wave propagation nature to receive shortwave stations apart 6000 miles using indoor small loop antennas in USA unless your antenna is located
on top of St Helen mountain?

Regards,
Raphael

§°§ä§á§â§Ñ§Ó§Ý§Ö§ß§à §ã iPhone

24 §à§Ü§ä. 2022?§Ô., §Ó 10:57 PM, John Perry <indianashortwave@...> §ß§Ñ§á§Ú§ã§Ñ§Ý(§Ñ):

?


On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 10:44 PM Silverfox <alan.r.hill@...> wrote:

I thought that congress and the FCC directed that all HOAs cannot ban all antennas.?

Alan - W6ARH

On 10/24/2022 7:03 PM, John Perry wrote:
I've did it relatively successfully over the years and I've seen others do it that way as well. I know this much and I've had plenty of 2000 to 6000 mile contacts over the years using Magnetic Loops indoors at relatively low wattages under 100 watts. It can be done plus here in the states we have a lot of lightning prone areas where you might not want to have your mag loop outside and be able to use it in an attic or somewhere that isn't so conspicuous. One problem here in the United States is the increasingly influence of the local antenna police called HOA or commonly known as homeowner associations. Therefore there are many hams who cannot because of their local environment be able to put a funky looking loop outside even on their patio or some other place around their property even with them owning their property that they are still subject to HOA rules due to it being a requirement for such ownership of said property.?

Many Americans these days live in apartments as well and some of the restrictions that come with boilerplate leases and renting also involve restrictions on any outside antenna including anything that would be much more than the basic satellite dish of maximum of one meter or approximately 40 inches in diameter. Anything else is seriously prohibited in many rental agreements or even by landlords who do not want antennas visible in their properties. So therefore ham radio operators and shortwave enthusiasts often have to conceal these antennas from spying eyes or nosy neighbors or overbearing landlords, apartment police or such ne'er do wells that have nothing better to do than serve as the local auxiliary police force of the local apartment complex or the neighborhood due to the HOA.?

One can use these loops to receive signals from thousands of miles away with quite acceptable results like my reception daily of Radio New Zealand from 13000 kilometers or 8200 miles away with S9 plus signal on a daily basis just using a Yaesu FRG-100B receiver with a small 4 foot magnetic loop with quite good results. Then again I've also used magnetic loops to contact many stations in Europe and Russia which are both well over 4000 miles/7000 kilometers away in the case of Europe as well as much as 7000 miles/10000 kilometers away to Russia or even Japan which is 10000 km away or 6000-6500 miles away.?

I've also worked a little over 100 countries using indoor antenna such as a 200 foot longwire?ran around a ceiling and fed into a 9 to 1 balun for a number of years as well and also achieved a great deal of success with working long distance DX.? I'll take my results for now and when my situation changes in the future will probably be putting up something outdoors but for now what I have works. I might also add that I've also worked a great deal of these same countries with a mobile station in my automobile over many years as well including 6000 mile contacts to Russia on occasion when the conditions are right.

On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 11:21 AM Simon <ohhellnotagain@...> wrote:
Hi

Why anyone would want to put any antenna indoors especially a magloop is questionable ( or unavoidable.)

It will couple to everything..needs to be? outside..especially as 160m ( lots of electrical man made? noise.)

It can be hid though ( painted green etc) and can be close to gnd..obviously higher 2m? Is better, but it will work say at 1m? above gnd. JUST BE sure no one can touch it while txing!!

Simon




 

Hello Jeff. A small transmitting loop (STL), or mag loop for 160m is possible, but some compromises must be accepted. I built a three-turn STL for 80-160m use about 12 years ago and have had good experience using it, mostly for SSB round-table use on 75m, and CW on 160m for contesting and DXing.? Programs like LoopCalc and 66pacific (on line) provide some design help, but produce questionable results (because of incorrect inductance calculations and other errors).

Rather than complain about problems, I created the STLcalc program to use correct, validated formulas, and to provide better ease of use where possible. You can get details by visiting my QRZ page (https://www.qrz.com/db/KB0YH). Scroll down to the coverage of loop antennas for pictures and program details.

73,
Gus Hansen
KB0YH
 

Hi Jeff

For 160m? I suggest you think about the on the top band hams reflector.? The way WB5WPA did it allows you to make a quick test on a fixed frequency without a lot of cost and if you have trees it can be a fairly stealthy antenna as well.? If you like it, change to a motorized cap to make it frequency agile.? I've built a couple of these for 80 and 160 and though my contesting skills are poor (detest contests) have had good results with QRP on 160m so that says something about the antenna's efficiency.? The main idea is that very small antennas like the classic 'magloop' because they enclose such a small space, the radiation resistance is in miliohms and that means to get any decent efficiency you would like to keep loss resistance about 10 times less, which is why magloops need big conductors, wide straps connecting to the tuning cap and also a cap with no sliding connection ie you need a split stator or VVC.? This all applies to loops that are defined as small being 1/10th or so of a wavelength in circumference. On the other hand the ARRL antenna book says the smallest "regular" loop antenna is 1/2 wave in length.? This loop I am suggesting is ~1/4 to ~5/16 wave long and has some really neat advantages.? As it encloses a larger volume of space the radiation resistance comes way up and you no longer have to keep loss in the low milliohms to get any efficiency.? This means you can use regular wire for the conductor.? A regular low cost capacitor with sliding contact will also be ok for the same reason.?

The details are in the link so I don't need to repeat it all here but a few guidelines are worth mentioning;? there will be interaction between the bottom wire of the rectangle and earth, and earth losses get reflected into the impedance you will be matching to, so you want the bottom of the antenna a good 2m above the ground or more if possible.? That also makes it good for not clotheslining yourself when you are walking around the yard looking at the person next door washing her car. :)? Another rule of thumb is the longer the wire the higher the impedance for matching.? So this means you can tweak the antenna's match by either changing the wire length or simply adjusting its height above ground.? I find this last to be very handy for portable 160m operation (yes!) where ground characteristics will be different in different locations.? Some collapsible fiberglass poles allow you to support the wires and adjust the height easily.? Also for consideration:? You can certainly build a classic magloop for 160m but if you build it well with low loss it will end up being rather heavy and still fairly large even with two turns and your neighbours will certainly notice it.? It won't be cheap!? It will only be useful for 160m after all that.? On the other hand, activity on 160m tends to be rather sparse and winter oriented with the majority of it going on in the Stew Perry contest weekends.? With this antenna you can put it up all by yourself in about 20 minutes and take it down even faster and afterwards have a couple of 12m poles you can use for other antennas like a nice 40m half square at other times of the year etc. or, use another wire and move the poles closer to get on 80m with it.? I really love this antenna and use my VE2AO magloop tuner for keeping it tracking my VFO.? Had one up the whole winter a couple of years ago and it was very reliable and consistent in use.

Best regards...Joe

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