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I have several S88N devices from Digikeijs and YaMoRC.?
I currently have one directly connected to the command station through the S88N bus. The others are connected using the LocoNet modules.?
For example, a Digikeijs DR4088LN-CS on the LocoNet bus, then a DR4088-CS connected to the S88N port on the DR4088LN-CS.?
If I get an LCC command station, I am trying to figure out how to connect to the S88N devices.
Will the RR-ckts LCC to LocoNet adapter work to connect to the DR4088LN-CS and then also the DR4088-CS?
?
Or is there a way to go direct from LCC to S88N?
?
I am trying to see if a conversion to an LCC command station is possible.?
Thanks
--
Heath @ Human[c]ity
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Way beyond my knowledge. I note you have TWO command stations connected to your layout? Which one controls the track?
Mark Granville ?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Human[c]ity Junction
Sent: Friday, January 17, 2025 2:41 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [LayoutCommandControl] LCC to LocoNet to S88N, or LCC to S88N? I have several S88N devices from Digikeijs and YaMoRC.?
I currently have one directly connected to the command station through the S88N bus. The others are connected using the LocoNet modules.?
For example, a Digikeijs DR4088LN-CS on the LocoNet bus, then a DR4088-CS connected to the S88N port on the DR4088LN-CS.? If I get an LCC command station, I am trying to figure out how to connect to the S88N devices. Will the RR-ckts LCC to LocoNet adapter work to connect to the DR4088LN-CS and then also the DR4088-CS?
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I currently only have one command station connected.?
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Heath @ Human[c]ity
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It should work but what are you trying to accomplish? Do you even need to connect the LocoNet to LCC, or could you just run a standalone LocoNet to provide feedback to JMRI?
Alex
-- Alexander Wood Hartford-New Haven, CT Modeling the modern era freelanced G&W Connecticut Northern in HO Digikeijs DR5000 - JMRI - ProtoThrottle - TCS UWT-100 - TCS UWT-50p - Digitrax Simplex
On Fri, Jan 17, 2025 at 6:06?PM Human[c]ity Junction via <heath= [email protected]> wrote: I currently only have one command station connected.?
--
Heath @ Human[c]ity
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The "CS" in the DR4088-CS means "current sense", not "command station".
This is fine, it should work. I don't think there is anyone who has tried it yet, but if you have the loconet-LCC converter already, or are planning to buy it for some other reason, then it makes sense. The LCC configuration will have to be done in the LCC-LocoNet gateway for each input sensor that you connect this way. You have to keep in mind that there is a limit on how many such configurations can be entered, but it is reasonably high (1024 I think).
You have to be careful with your ground. Unless you have the OPTO versions of the DR4088 (sounds like you don't), then they are connecting the ground of the loconet to the DCC track. Unless you intend to ground your LCC to the track, you should probably configure the LCC LocoNet gateway to isolate (there are switches inside for this). If you use a CS-105, then you are already grounding your track and your LCC together, so you are fine.
Is your S88N bus running at 12V or at 5V?
On Sat, Jan 18, 2025 at 4:00?AM Alexander Wood via <newyorknewhavenandhartford= [email protected]> wrote:
It should work but what are you trying to accomplish? Do you even need to connect the LocoNet to LCC, or could you just run a standalone LocoNet to provide feedback to JMRI?
Alex
-- Alexander Wood Hartford-New Haven, CT Modeling the modern era freelanced G&W Connecticut Northern in HO Digikeijs DR5000 - JMRI - ProtoThrottle - TCS UWT-100 - TCS UWT-50p - Digitrax Simplex
On Fri, Jan 17, 2025 at 6:06?PM Human[c]ity Junction via <heath= [email protected]> wrote: I currently only have one command station connected.?
--
Heath @ Human[c]ity
|
Alex,
?
Is there a standalone JMRI to LocoNet device?
?
I just realized that I could use my PR4 for this purpose, so I wouldn’t need a LCC to LocoNet adapter.?
--
Heath @ Human[c]ity
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This is getting more complicated than I realized.?
What if I just kept the YD7001 connected to JMRI for LocoNet and S88N and added the CS-105 for LCC and DCC.?
I believe this would keep everything separate and not have to worry about the grounding.?
Although this is starting to make me wonder if I am going to have an issue with my DR5033 booster that is currently connected via LocoNet. Not sure how/if this would work with an LCC command station on one power district and the LocoNet booster on another.?
--
Heath @ Human[c]ity
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“Is your S88N bus running at 12V or at 5V?
?
I am not adding any power to the S88N devices, it is just powered via the LocoNet bus.?
--
Heath @ Human[c]ity
|
Alex,
Never connect your LocoNet ground directly to the rails
themselves, even with isolation. There are situations where the
booster ground and network ground may be connected, and in fact
Digitrax and TCS systems do this normally. In fact that is why you
shouldn't connect the rails. I.e. connecting a common rail system
to DCC is a really bad idea if you don't understand exactly what
you are doing and install the required isolation. I was explaining
this to a club one time, and one of the guys said "That probably
explains why that (pointing) UP5 panel burned up when I tried to
ground it."
There are also issues with connecting Digitrax boosters to other
systems. (actually its more the other way, when using non-Digitrax
boosters on a LocoNet system) We have decided that the only way to
link them universally is with an active link, not just the proper
wiring. This link is under design but not yet done.
Another thing is that the current Gateway firmware now supports
Well Known sensor events, so by using the well known events on the
LCC network the LCC-LocoNet Gateway will automatically do the
translation into LocoNet Sensors, and not require entering the
pairs into the conversion table. (Balazs is correct that the table
limits you to 1024 pairs) Note also that the Gateway already
supports the well known accessory commands as used by the TCS
command station. This means that by use of the LCC Well Known
messages you don't need to manually enter any data in the table.
Dick :)
On 1/18/2025 5:57 AM, Balazs Racz via
groups.io wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
The "CS" in the DR4088-CS means "current sense",
not "command station".
This is fine, it should work. I don't think there is anyone
who has tried it yet, but if you have the loconet-LCC
converter already, or are planning to buy it for some other
reason, then it makes sense. The LCC configuration will have
to be done in the LCC-LocoNet gateway for each input sensor
that you connect this way. You have to keep in mind that there
is a limit on how many such configurations can be entered, but
it is reasonably high (1024 I think).
You have to be careful with your ground. Unless you have
the OPTO versions of the DR4088 (sounds like you don't), then
they are connecting the ground of the loconet to the DCC
track. Unless you intend to ground your LCC to the track, you
should probably configure the LCC LocoNet gateway to isolate
(there are switches inside for this). If you use a CS-105,
then you are already grounding your track and your LCC
together, so you are fine.
Is your S88N bus running at 12V or at 5V?
On Sat, Jan 18, 2025 at
4:00?AM Alexander Wood via
<newyorknewhavenandhartford= [email protected]>
wrote:
It should work but what are you trying to accomplish?
Do you even need to connect the LocoNet to LCC, or could
you just run a standalone LocoNet to provide feedback to
JMRI?
Alex
--
Alexander Wood
Hartford-New Haven, CT
Modeling the modern era
freelanced G&W Connecticut Northern in HO
Digikeijs DR5000 - JMRI -
ProtoThrottle - TCS UWT-100 - TCS UWT-50p -
Digitrax Simplex
On Fri, Jan 17, 2025 at
6:06?PM Human[c]ity Junction via <heath= [email protected]>
wrote:
I currently only have one command station connected.?
--
Heath @ Human[c]ity
|
Heath,
Search "standalone LocoNet". There are a number of resources out there on LocoNet terminators. The PR3 can function as one or you can build your own and use a different PC interface.
IIRC, The DR5033 is not opto-isolated. How large is your layout? What LocoNet?booster do you have? Why are you trying to add booster(s)? A CS-105 can easily support 5+ operators in HO scale, likely more depending on the locomotives?and the size of the?lashups.
I'd also really consider what you're trying to accomplish. If you only have a couple of DR4088s and you're just trying to detect occupancy, I'd consider selling them and going all with native LCC coil-based block detectors from RR-Cirkits and then you also get rid of the voltage drop issue with the DR4088s.
I've seen posts about layouts with as many as 48 BDL168's, which is potentially upwards of 700 detected blocks. In a situation like that, it makes a lot of sense to figure out how to retain legacy equipment. If you're talking about 2 or 3 detector boards, it probably makes a lot more sense to standardize on something that will work well with the system that you're going with. What type of signaling are you implementing? How many blocks do you have wired up?
Alex
-- Alexander Wood Hartford-New Haven, CT Modeling the modern era freelanced G&W Connecticut Northern in HO Digikeijs DR5000 - JMRI - ProtoThrottle - TCS UWT-100 - TCS UWT-50p - Digitrax Simplex
On Sat, Jan 18, 2025 at 6:31?PM Human[c]ity Junction via <heath= [email protected]> wrote: Alex,
?
Is there a standalone JMRI to LocoNet device?
--
Heath @ Human[c]ity
|
Dick,
Your advice to be cautious is wise. The electrical design of a lot of this stuff is not well documented. Digitrax in particular doesn't seem to electrically isolate anything, which creates a lot of weirdness with the DCC common and requiring separate power supplies for different types of devices. Digitrax boosters are widely used with NCE systems, TCS has demonstrated them with the CS-105. I've seen NCE boosters successfully used with Digitrax command stations.
Where it gets really weird is the European systems, which work differently. The DR5033 doesn't seem to be opto-isolated, nor have a DCC common, as it seems to use the LocoNet as the DCC common, although I don't really claim to fully understand it. It seems to be that it is designed for a layout in a loft where all the boosters are essentially co-located, so you have short runs of LocoNet cabling. Mixing the DR5000's internal booster with regular Digitrax boosters (non-OPTO) seems to be a recipe for disaster.
Although at one point Digitrax was the clear leader in the DCC industry, the more I learn about their hardware design, the less and less I like their products.
Alex
-- Alexander Wood Hartford-New Haven, CT Modeling the modern era freelanced G&W Connecticut Northern in HO Digikeijs DR5000 - JMRI - ProtoThrottle - TCS UWT-100 - TCS UWT-50p - Digitrax Simplex
Alex,
Never connect your LocoNet ground directly to the rails
themselves, even with isolation. There are situations where the
booster ground and network ground may be connected, and in fact
Digitrax and TCS systems do this normally. In fact that is why you
shouldn't connect the rails. I.e. connecting a common rail system
to DCC is a really bad idea if you don't understand exactly what
you are doing and install the required isolation. I was explaining
this to a club one time, and one of the guys said "That probably
explains why that (pointing) UP5 panel burned up when I tried to
ground it."
There are also issues with connecting Digitrax boosters to other
systems. (actually its more the other way, when using non-Digitrax
boosters on a LocoNet system) We have decided that the only way to
link them universally is with an active link, not just the proper
wiring. This link is under design but not yet done.
Another thing is that the current Gateway firmware now supports
Well Known sensor events, so by using the well known events on the
LCC network the LCC-LocoNet Gateway will automatically do the
translation into LocoNet Sensors, and not require entering the
pairs into the conversion table. (Balazs is correct that the table
limits you to 1024 pairs) Note also that the Gateway already
supports the well known accessory commands as used by the TCS
command station. This means that by use of the LCC Well Known
messages you don't need to manually enter any data in the table.
Dick :)
On 1/18/2025 5:57 AM, Balazs Racz via
wrote:
The "CS" in the DR4088-CS means "current sense",
not "command station".
This is fine, it should work. I don't think there is anyone
who has tried it yet, but if you have the loconet-LCC
converter already, or are planning to buy it for some other
reason, then it makes sense. The LCC configuration will have
to be done in the LCC-LocoNet gateway for each input sensor
that you connect this way. You have to keep in mind that there
is a limit on how many such configurations can be entered, but
it is reasonably high (1024 I think).
You have to be careful with your ground. Unless you have
the OPTO versions of the DR4088 (sounds like you don't), then
they are connecting the ground of the loconet to the DCC
track. Unless you intend to ground your LCC to the track, you
should probably configure the LCC LocoNet gateway to isolate
(there are switches inside for this). If you use a CS-105,
then you are already grounding your track and your LCC
together, so you are fine.
Is your S88N bus running at 12V or at 5V?
On Sat, Jan 18, 2025 at
4:00?AM Alexander Wood via
<newyorknewhavenandhartford= [email protected]>
wrote:
It should work but what are you trying to accomplish?
Do you even need to connect the LocoNet to LCC, or could
you just run a standalone LocoNet to provide feedback to
JMRI?
Alex
--
Alexander Wood
Hartford-New Haven, CT
Modeling the modern era
freelanced G&W Connecticut Northern in HO
Digikeijs DR5000 - JMRI -
ProtoThrottle - TCS UWT-100 - TCS UWT-50p -
Digitrax Simplex
On Fri, Jan 17, 2025 at
6:06?PM Human[c]ity Junction via <heath= [email protected]>
wrote:
I currently only have one command station connected.?
--
Heath @ Human[c]ity
|
Heath,
I just looked on your website, and your documentation (which is excellent BTW), says you have 3 crews in N scale. You probably aren't using 1A of DCC power during an op session, so get rid of any auxiliary boosters, and just use the 3A or 5A system, depending on what you want to use.
Alex
-- Alexander Wood Hartford-New Haven, CT Modeling the modern era freelanced G&W Connecticut Northern in HO Digikeijs DR5000 - JMRI - ProtoThrottle - TCS UWT-100 - TCS UWT-50p - Digitrax Simplex
On Sat, Jan 18, 2025 at 6:37?PM Human[c]ity Junction via <heath= [email protected]> wrote: This is getting more complicated than I realized.?
What if I just kept the YD7001 connected to JMRI for LocoNet and S88N and added the CS-105 for LCC and DCC.?
I believe this would keep everything separate and not have to worry about the grounding.?
Although this is starting to make me wonder if I am going to have an issue with my DR5033 booster that is currently connected via LocoNet. Not sure how/if this would work with an LCC command station on one power district and the LocoNet booster on another.?
--
Heath @ Human[c]ity
|
On Jan 18, 2025, at 7:25?PM, Alexander Wood via groups.io <newyorknewhavenandhartford@...> wrote:
Where it gets really weird is the European systems, which work differently. The DR5033 doesn't seem to be opto-isolated, nor have a DCC common, as it seems to use the LocoNet as the DCC common, although I don't really claim to fully understand it. It seems to be that it is designed for a layout in a loft where all the boosters are essentially co-located, so you have short runs of LocoNet cabling. Mixing the DR5000's internal booster with regular Digitrax boosters (non-OPTO) seems to be a recipe for disaster. Yes, and that is implied by diagram 4.9 in the DR5033 manual. The implication is that the DR5033 shouldn’t ever be connected to a LocoNet B interface unless either the ground is clipped or there is no way to cross between a boundary between boosters with the common ground and boosters without. I have 4 of the DR5033 boosters. I basically restrict those boosters to powering the Free-moN accessory bus because I don’t want to fry anyone else’s equipment ( the accessory bus is safe because it isn’t possible to cross the block boundary since there is never a connection to the track ). When they are released, I will likely buy a few of the SPROG LCC boosters to do what I had originally planned to do with the DR5033s, namely mounting them on the bottom of one of my modules which will be capable of operating as a standalone layout. Paul
|
Alex,
?
I originally added the booster to have two power districts for short protection.?
I am thinking I would just combine them as I am adding breakers on one command station.?
I have too many (12) LocoNet/S88N devices to cost effectively switch them to LCC at this moment. But it does mean I can start getting LCC options moving forward.?
--
Heath @ Human[c]ity
|
Would I be better off using the LCC to LocoNet gateway or should I use a Digitrax PR4 when switching to an LCC command station?
I have the PR4, I would have to buy the LCC-LocoNet gateway.?
--
Heath @ Human[c]ity
|
It's definitely a better?option to have breakers than a separate booster for a layout of your size. This also gives you railcom reads over the entire layout (hope your breaker is compatible with it though!)
Using the PR4 has a limitation that all of your detection reports go to JMRI only. So if you need an LCC device to react to a detection report, you have to do some magix in JMRI. BUt it gives you a decent start. Eventually if you'd like to say goodbye to your computer running the layout, you will want the direct translation via the loconet LCC gateway. But you can delay the investment.
?
On Sun, Jan 19, 2025 at 1:18?PM Human[c]ity Junction via <heath= [email protected]> wrote: Would I be better off using the LCC to LocoNet gateway or should I use a Digitrax PR4 when switching to an LCC command station?
I have the PR4, I would have to buy the LCC-LocoNet gateway.?
--
Heath @ Human[c]ity
|
Balazs, are there any “breakers” or short circuit devices to break up a layout into multiple power districts that connect to LCC? Or do we have to use individual units connected through a node likera TowerLCC? ? At this time, Belmont Shore has approx.. 24 power districts powered by three boosters. ? Dana Zimmerli Z System Designs ?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Balazs Racz via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2025 6:07 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [LayoutCommandControl] LCC to LocoNet to S88N, or LCC to S88N? It's definitely a better?option to have breakers than a separate booster for a layout of your size. This also gives you railcom reads over the entire layout (hope your breaker is compatible with it though!) Using the PR4 has a limitation that all of your detection reports go to JMRI only. So if you need an LCC device to react to a detection report, you have to do some magix in JMRI. BUt it gives you a decent start. Eventually if you'd like to say goodbye to your computer running the layout, you will want the direct translation via the loconet LCC gateway. But you can delay the investment. ? On Sun, Jan 19, 2025 at 1:18?PM Human[c]ity Junction via <heath=[email protected]> wrote: Would I be better off using the LCC to LocoNet gateway or should I use a Digitrax PR4 when switching to an LCC command station? I have the PR4, I would have to buy the LCC-LocoNet gateway.?
|
Balazs, are there any “breakers” or short circuit devices to break up a layout into multiple power districts that connect to LCC?
To the best of my knowledge there aren't. I've had to build one myself in the past and I'm building another right now for my?layout. I know of several designs on paper but none as released products. ? Or do we have to use individual units connected through a node likera TowerLCC?
That seems reasonable today. ?
? At this time, Belmont Shore has approx.. 24 power districts powered by three boosters.
Yeah, your layout?is a tad bit bigger than a 12'x12' N-scale switching layout :) ? ? Dana Zimmerli Z System Designs ? ? It's definitely a better?option to have breakers than a separate booster for a layout of your size. This also gives you railcom reads over the entire layout (hope your breaker is compatible with it though!) Using the PR4 has a limitation that all of your detection reports go to JMRI only. So if you need an LCC device to react to a detection report, you have to do some magix in JMRI. BUt it gives you a decent start. Eventually if you'd like to say goodbye to your computer running the layout, you will want the direct translation via the loconet LCC gateway. But you can delay the investment. ? On Sun, Jan 19, 2025 at 1:18?PM Human[c]ity Junction via <heath=[email protected]> wrote: Would I be better off using the LCC to LocoNet gateway or should I use a Digitrax PR4 when switching to an LCC command station? I have the PR4, I would have to buy the LCC-LocoNet gateway.?
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Balazs,
?
I am adding in the PSXX breaker now. At the time, one booster was cheaper, but now I have had the fortune of paying for things twice.
?
i am using JMRI WebServer to drive all my tablets for turnout control. So unless LCC develops a touch panel solution, I don’t see JMRI going away anytime soon on my layout.?
And I appreciate that you think my layout is 12x12. I wish it was that big as it would solve several issues on the layout. It’s actually only 9’x8’. I didn’t think I would ever use LCC on this layout due to the size, but an opportunity has come up (and I like making my life complicated) so I am planning out a transition.?
thanks?
--
Heath @ Human[c]ity
|
I too have a DR5000->YD7001 command station with three DR5033 LocoNet attached boosters and six PSX/PSXX breakers that I would someday like to upgrade to an LCC command station with boosters. I am working on changing my last DIY LocoNet device to LCC. When that happens it is just the boosters left. No rush, it all works, but I like to stay on the bleeding edge. If some nice LCC manageable breakers came out with decent granularity on trip points, I would jump on them. An AR feature would be nice too... Or a posted schematic would do.
On Sun, Jan 19, 2025 at 9:49?AM Balazs Racz via <balazs.racz= [email protected]> wrote:
Balazs, are there any “breakers” or short circuit devices to break up a layout into multiple power districts that connect to LCC?
To the best of my knowledge there aren't. I've had to build one myself in the past and I'm building another right now for my?layout. I know of several designs on paper but none as released products. ? Or do we have to use individual units connected through a node likera TowerLCC?
That seems reasonable today. ?
? At this time, Belmont Shore has approx.. 24 power districts powered by three boosters.
Yeah, your layout?is a tad bit bigger than a 12'x12' N-scale switching layout :) ? ? Dana Zimmerli Z System Designs ? ? It's definitely a better?option to have breakers than a separate booster for a layout of your size. This also gives you railcom reads over the entire layout (hope your breaker is compatible with it though!) Using the PR4 has a limitation that all of your detection reports go to JMRI only. So if you need an LCC device to react to a detection report, you have to do some magix in JMRI. BUt it gives you a decent start. Eventually if you'd like to say goodbye to your computer running the layout, you will want the direct translation via the loconet LCC gateway. But you can delay the investment. ? On Sun, Jan 19, 2025 at 1:18?PM Human[c]ity Junction via <heath=[email protected]> wrote: Would I be better off using the LCC to LocoNet gateway or should I use a Digitrax PR4 when switching to an LCC command station? I have the PR4, I would have to buy the LCC-LocoNet gateway.?
|
Heath @ Human[c]ity Junction
Dick Bronson
Bob Gamble