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Jan, All I am indicating is what dug up in the TCS decoder manuals regarding Hysteresis (or hysterasis)?? as it applies to the WOW decoder as I believe this is were the question came up from.? The thread had no mention of "hysteresis" in it until? Paul threw it out there.? So I assumed it had to be TCS WOW related.
The proper spelling is HYSTERESIS.? The typo is in the WOW decoder manual and throws a curve when one is searching for the proper definition/use of HYSTERESIS as it applies to the WOW decoder.
It is a SOUND related setting? that? takes it? value from BEMF.. The default value = 80.. so a difference (either - or + ) of 80? will increase? or decrease? the current notch rate.? That is how the TCS WOW manual
seems to describe the " HYSTERESIS "? (or HYSTERASIS? if you look in WOW manual) .? And as I stated, it only applies to one Throttle? mode, Prototype throttle mode, auto notch.
TCS video on? Throttle modes :?? .? Unfortunately, no mention of hysteresis in it?
Marc?
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Thanks guys! So for speed matching, I’ll set it to 0 and probably keep it at zero unless I consist it with other TCS equipped locos.
Paul
Sent via iPhone
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On Sat, Dec 7, 2019 at 10:06 AM, <forfoum@...> wrote:
This hysteresis is the amount of change from BEMF before it moves to next (+/-) notch.? Default is 80 (0-255). For use in "Prototype Throttle Mode" only.
Marc: I'm not familiar with TCS but from what you say their manual is not using the word "hysteresis" as it is generally defined. As Chuck says, hysteresis exists when one value of an input results in different values of an output depending on whether that input value was set by increasing a lower value or reducing a higher value. In decoder terms, Notch 2 speed would be different when notching up from 1 than notching down from 3. Hysteresis is what's left over after all the time delays of momentum have faded away when making a speed change. It is different to momentum but could mask it so confuse and complicate the process of speed matching. Jan
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" Hysteresis "? This is one big mystery as there is mention on TCS web site of Hysteresis, but browsing the manuals explain nothing but
" Hysteresis - change to notch " and is in sound related CV's of WOW
There is a typo in the WOW manual.. They have it as "hysterasis"? reason why could not find it.
This hysteresis is the amount of change from BEMF before it moves to next (+/-) notch.? Default is 80 (0-255). For use in "Prototype Throttle Mode" only. Marc.
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...........and who said model railroading ain't fun? LOL
Doug Wagner
Bakersfield, California
In a message dated 12/06/19 15:10:21 Pacific Standard Time, chakkarinen@... writes:
AS described in Wikipedia:? "Hysteresis?is the dependence of the state of a system on its history.?Hysteresis can be a dynamic??between an input and an output that disappears if the input is varied more slowly; this is known as?rate-dependent?hysteresis.?Systems with hysteresis are?, and can be mathematically challenging to model."
An example of hysteresis in an electronic system, such as a DCC decoder, would be that the rate of change of velocity of a decoder-equipped locomotive as you move the throttle at a constant rate between minimum speed step and maximum speed step would be different when going from min to max, as compared to going from max to min.
So, to simulate physical momemtum in model railroad locomotives (which don't have very much mass compared to their real-world counterparts, and thus, not very much physical momentum), the decoder manufacturers employ "electronic hysteresis" in their model locomotives to simulate the "physical hysteresis" (a.k.a. "momentum") that is found in their Big Brothers in the real world.
And again [from Wikipedia]:? "Often, some amount of hysteresis is intentionally added to an electronic circuit to prevent unwanted rapid switching. This and similar techniques are used to compensate for??in switches, or??in an electrical signal."
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AS described in Wikipedia:? "Hysteresis?is the dependence of the state of a system on its history.?Hysteresis can be a dynamic??between an input and an output that disappears if the input is varied more slowly; this is known as?rate-dependent?hysteresis.?Systems with hysteresis are?, and can be mathematically challenging to model."
An example of hysteresis in an electronic system, such as a DCC decoder, would be that the rate of change of velocity of a decoder-equipped locomotive as you move the throttle at a constant rate between minimum speed step and maximum speed step would be different when going from min to max, as compared to going from max to min.
So, to simulate physical momemtum in model railroad locomotives (which don't have very much mass compared to their real-world counterparts, and thus, not very much physical momentum), the decoder manufacturers employ "electronic hysteresis" in their model locomotives to simulate the "physical hysteresis" (a.k.a. "momentum") that is found in their Big Brothers in the real world.
And again [from Wikipedia]:? "Often, some amount of hysteresis is intentionally added to an electronic circuit to prevent unwanted rapid switching. This and similar techniques are used to compensate for??in switches, or??in an electrical signal."
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What is "Hysteresis"? Does this have anything to do with setting the TCS decoder momentum, brakes, etc to 0?
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I've heard the same and you can see it sometimes on videos that prototype locos start slightly differently even the same type. So long as your locos don't fight each other with slipping wheels it is ok. Mine even though well matched, will push or pull each other as they start moving, but they don't spin wheels unless the train is too heavy or grade too steep, much as the prototype.
Mike Ruby
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I remember years ago (about 60 years!), I got to ride in the cab of a FP7 or 9 with an Alco (RS-10 probably) behind it for a passenger train power. Every start, got a 'bump' from the Alco unit to the emd unit. The engineer who took me along with him told me the Alco didn't start as smooth as the EMD units.
Also for what it's worth. I use the Bachrus speedometer, and have found the Soundtraxx (TSU-1)? units best match TCS decoders (steam versions) unison?the Exponential 2 speed?curve in the speed tables.
Jim Little, MMR
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I agree, I use several makes and types of decoder, I have old decoders that have been out dated before I've managed to fit them, so long as they can do what I want I'll still fit them. Definitely set momentum to zero while matching otherwise you have to wait for the speed to settle, BEMF will still work the same, yes it effects sounds but not speed response.
I do mine on a rolling road, which means I can set them to set speeds and do it in a consistent way loco to loco, I haven't found a loco / decoder combination that doesn't work yet and I started this a long time ago.
Mike Ruby
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I would add the prototype also knows to not mix certain locomotives. So your
roster may end up with the same issue of some can be put in a consist
together and some only with other locos. Speed matching at best gets you
groups of locos that play nicely. Kind of like people at train clubs. Some
work better together than other groups.
-Ken Cameron, Member JMRI Dev Team
www.jmri.org
www.fingerlakeslivesteamers.org
www.cnymod.org
www.syracusemodelrr.org
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Paul,
We were saying that while working on speed matching, FIRST you do it without
momentum enabled. Then after you get them running the same at slow, medium,
and fast speeds do you work to get a compatible momentum setting. Again,
just like matching the basic speeds, matching momentum is easier the more
similar the decoders are. Last you get the issue of if they respond to a
brake key the same or not. All depends on how far you want to go.
-Ken Cameron, Member JMRI Dev Team
www.jmri.org
www.fingerlakeslivesteamers.org
www.cnymod.org
www.syracusemodelrr.org
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I wouldn't bother standardizing on one brand or model of decoder. It's more trouble than it's worth. You will need decoders with similar features if you want to consist locos for features such as braking.
--
Peter Ulvestad
JMRI Users Group Moderator - ( )
Tam Valley Group Moderator - ( )
Sprog-DCC Group Moderator - ( )
Edmonton Model Railroad Association -
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Paul,
Just like any consumer product, if you try to stay on the leading edge of
technology, you'll end up in the poor house.
Do your due diligence, buy what is best for you and how you plan to use it, no
tech lasts for ever let alone more than five years because the software/firmware
keeps developing and breaking new ground, hardware is always a year or two
behind.
Technology is like owning a boat where a boat is a hole in the water to toss
your money into and tech is a box to do the same.
Remember, it is your railroad.
John.
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Show quoted text
---------- Original Message ----------
From: Paul Champlin <paul.champlin@...>
Date: December 1, 2019 at 10:14 AM
You guys are a fantastic resource! Thanks to all. I guess by your answers this
is a common challenge. And as desirable as it seems to upgrade the fleet's
decoders to the very same exact model, the reality is that in a few years they
will be "old" compared to the offerings available. So to upgrade, and try to
stay at the leading edge of technology, seems like a very expensive
proposition. I hadn't considered setting all momentum to zero and shall try
that but this too has its limitations as the newer more robust features in the
TCS decoder probably won't be able to be used to their fullest extent (BEMF).
So, it doesn't appear there is a clear path for perfection except to further
tap into my children's inheritance and keep the decoder fleet current and/or
consistent from loco to loco.
I really appreciate everyone taking time to share your collective wisdom!!!
Thanks
Paul
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You guys are a fantastic resource! Thanks to all. I guess by your answers this is a common challenge. And as desirable as it seems to upgrade the fleet's decoders to the very same exact model, the reality is that in a few years they will be "old" compared to the offerings available. So to upgrade, and try to stay at the leading edge of technology, seems like a very expensive proposition. I hadn't considered setting all momentum to zero and shall try that but this too has its limitations as the newer more robust features in the TCS decoder probably won't be able to be used to their fullest extent (BEMF). So, it doesn't appear there is a clear path for perfection except to further tap into my children's inheritance and keep the decoder fleet current and/or consistent from loco to loco.
I really appreciate everyone taking time to share your collective wisdom!!!
Thanks
Paul
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As a follow up to Mick's comment, standardizing on one brand/model of decoder
would also go a long way to keeping your hair where you would normally expect to
find it.
John
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---------- Original Message ----------
From: Mick Moignard <mick@...>
Date: December 1, 2019 at 2:26 AM
Note too that the old NCE decoder (almost certainly) has no BEMF, and a
such will be much more sluggish at slow speed than the WOW, however hard
you try to get it to match. Best thing would be to replace it with a
modern decoder with tunable BEMF. A non-sound TCS decoder might be a good
choice as it probably has the same motor drive algorithms as the WOW.
Mick
________________________________
Mick Moignard
m: +44 7774 652504
Skype: mickmoignard
Sent from my iPad, so please excuse the typos.
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Note too that the old NCE decoder (almost certainly) has no BEMF, and a such will be much more sluggish at slow speed than the WOW, however hard you try to get it to match. ?Best thing would be to replace it with a modern decoder with tunable BEMF. A non-sound TCS decoder might be a good choice as it probably has the same motor drive algorithms as the WOW.
Mick
________________________________
Mick Moignard
m: +44 7774 652504
Skype: mickmoignard
, so please excuse the typos.
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Also of note.. TCS has several momentum related CV's.? Grand total of 15 CV's.? So make sure they are all set = 00
Then there is Motor delay, CV 182.
Marc
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Yes, the whole issue of manual brake is another issue that some decoders can
do it and some can't. It is just another issue of which decoders can be
matched to other decoders. Locos with matching speeds with matching momentum
is another example of some will match and others will not match. But last
thing to keep in mind, the physical locos may have issues that make matching
difficult. Some models may never really match each other.
-Ken Cameron, Member JMRI Dev Team
www.jmri.org
www.fingerlakeslivesteamers.org
www.cnymod.org
www.syracusemodelrr.org
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Paul
The previous messages are correct. The reason for the difference - the default for cv3 is 32 and the default for CV4 is 96 - you are meant to use the brake to stop the loco. As said the NCE is primitive non sound decoder.
Gerry
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On 1/12/2019 2:16 pm, Ken Cameron wrote: Yes, speed match first. Then keep in mind that, regardless of the standard,
some vendors don't use the same formulas for momentum.
-Ken Cameron, Member JMRI Dev Team
www.jmri.org
www.fingerlakeslivesteamers.org
www.cnymod.org
www.syracusemodelrr.org
--
Gerry Hopkins MMR #177 FNMRA
Great Northern Downunder
NMRA Australasian Region
Contest & AP Chairman
Web Administrator
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Paul Champlin
Doug Wagner
Ken Cameron
Peter Ulvestad