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Dick, is tjere a Railcom Mail Group? I am curious if there are many Railcom layouts operating with large clubsd and multiple locomotives (10? -15) simultaneously. ? Dana Zimmerli Z System Designs ?
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From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of dick bronson via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2025 11:43 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [jmriusers] Best Command Station to use with Decoder Pro? Mark, You probably will not read this in MR, so do I dare to publicly post this info about what folks are missing out on here in the US of A? <G>? Hopefully it is not too far off topic from the original poster's question. Decoder Manufacturers Supporting RailCom: - Lenz Elektronik – The creators of RailCom; their Gold and Silver series decoders fully support it.
- ESU (Electronic Solutions Ulm) – Many LokPilot and LokSound decoders support RailCom.
- ZIMO – Almost all of their decoders are RailCom-compatible.
- TAMS Elektronik – Offers RailCom-compatible decoders.
- Doehler & Haass – Many of their decoders support RailCom.
- Train-O-Matic – Their decoders support RailCom functionality.
- Train Control Systems – Some TCS decoders support RailCom.
- Kuehn – Some decoders support RailCom.
- Uhlenbrock – Some decoders support RailCom.
RailCom Compatible Command Stations: - Lenz – LZV200 (successor to LZV100)
- Developed by the creators of RailCom. Full support for RailCom feedback and addressing.
- ZIMO – MX10
- High-end DCC system with full RailCom support, including feedback and decoder programming.
- ESU – ECoS 2 (50210, 50200)
- Supports RailCom and RailCom Plus for automatic train detection and feedback.
- TAMS Elektronik – RedBox
- A lesser-known command station that fully supports RailCom.
- TCS CS-105
- This command station from Train Control Systems also supports RailCom.?
- This system also offers global RailCom transmissions over LCC for supporting boosters, enhancing bi-directional communication capabilities to include booster districts as well.
- MRC – NEXXT
- I am including MRC in this list, because their (announced) NEXXT command system includes plans for support of both RailCom and LCC, even though it is not yet available.
Apparently some other European command stations, e.g. Roco Z21, may be upgraded to RailCom with the appropriate add-ons.? The openDCC project supports RailCom via the Open DCC GBM command station. Do not confuse RailCom and RailCom Plus, which as far as I know, is not an NMRA standard, so I suppose that it should be classed along with other proprietary options. I'm sure that this info is probably wrong at some points, so others feel free to update/correct it. On 3/20/2025 12:48 PM, Mark Granville wrote: Dick, Good point about Railcom and NMRA. As I understand it, Railcom became an RP in 1997 and didn’t become a standard until 2012. Even then, the standard underwent extensive revision in 2021.
Why haven’t manufacturers like Digitrax and NCE upgraded to include this in their command stations? Who knows. I guess Digitrax doesn’t want to compete with its transponding. I have used an NCE PowerHouse since 1998 when I wouldn’t have expected Railcom. I can’t tell from their web site if the new PowerPro system has Railcom capability, but with a price of $1K, the TCS system isn’t looking too bad.
Mark
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In addition to the decoders that Dick mentions, it should also be noted that over the last couple of years Trix have announced a number of locos fitted with decoders that have Railcom capability. I am not aware of Marklin supplying Railcom compatable decoders as seperate items yet, but there are suspicions that their newest decoders with the latest firmware can probably be manhandled into using Railcom.
Mark,
You probably will not read this in MR, so do I dare to publicly
post this info about what folks are missing out on here in the US
of A? <G>?
Hopefully it is not too far off topic from the original poster's
question.
Decoder Manufacturers Supporting RailCom:
- Lenz Elektronik – The creators of
RailCom; their Gold and Silver series decoders fully support it.
- ESU (Electronic Solutions Ulm) – Many
LokPilot and LokSound decoders
support RailCom.
- ZIMO – Almost all of their decoders
are RailCom-compatible.
- TAMS Elektronik – Offers
RailCom-compatible decoders.
- Doehler & Haass – Many of their
decoders support RailCom.
- Train-O-Matic – Their decoders support
RailCom functionality.
- Train Control Systems – Some TCS
decoders support RailCom.
- Kuehn – Some decoders support RailCom.
- Uhlenbrock – Some decoders support
RailCom.
RailCom Compatible Command Stations:
-
Lenz – LZV200 (successor to LZV100)
- Developed by the creators
of RailCom. Full support for RailCom feedback and
addressing.
-
ZIMO – MX10
- High-end DCC system with
full RailCom support, including feedback and decoder
programming.
-
ESU – ECoS 2 (50210, 50200)
- Supports RailCom and
RailCom Plus for automatic train detection and feedback.
-
TAMS Elektronik – RedBox
- A lesser-known command
station that fully supports RailCom.
-
TCS CS-105
- This command station from
Train Control Systems also supports RailCom.?
- This system also offers
global RailCom transmissions over LCC for supporting
boosters, enhancing bi-directional communication
capabilities to include booster districts as well.
-
MRC – NEXXT
- I am including MRC in this
list, because their (announced) NEXXT command system
includes plans for support of both RailCom and LCC, even
though it is not yet available.
Apparently some other European command
stations, e.g. Roco Z21, may be upgraded to RailCom with the
appropriate add-ons.?
The openDCC project supports RailCom
via the Open DCC GBM command station.
Do not confuse RailCom and RailCom
Plus, which as far as I know, is not an NMRA standard, so I
suppose that it should be classed along with other proprietary
options.
I'm sure that this info is probably
wrong at some points, so others feel free to update/correct it.
Dick :)
On 3/20/2025 12:48 PM, Mark Granville
wrote:
Dick, Good point about
Railcom and NMRA. As I understand it, Railcom became an RP
in 1997 and didn’t become a standard until 2012. Even then,
the standard underwent extensive revision in 2021.
Why haven’t manufacturers like Digitrax and NCE upgraded to
include this in their command stations? Who knows. I guess
Digitrax doesn’t want to compete with its transponding. I
have used an NCE PowerHouse since 1998 when I wouldn’t have
expected Railcom. I can’t tell from their web site if the
new PowerPro system has Railcom capability, but with a price
of $1K, the TCS system isn’t looking too bad.
Mark
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Mark, ? It takes a special circuit to get added to the booster to allow RailCom to work and then the circuit that would listen for the answers. So it takes a significant change in the booster circuit. That’s one part they (US mfgs) haven’t had to change for years. The hesitation of ‘don’t fix what isn’t broken’ comes to mind. Since Digitrax has its transponding, I wouldn’t expect them to change. NCE, hard to say, they have done a few things like the new PH5/CS03 but RailCom is only useful to those who also are doing some sort of computer interfacing. ? Only time will tell if the impact of TCS or MRC starts to show up on their radar. ? -Ken Cameron, Member JMRI Dev Team
? ?
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Tom, ? The question is if the ESU command station will work with JMRI. If it does, then you have something. But I don’t recall what level of ESU command station support has been written for JMRI. But if you look at this page, it will help you once your hardware arrives. ?
? Fundamentally it looks like some degree of support has been around for a number of years. ? -Ken Cameron, Member JMRI Dev Team
? ?
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Digitrax won't as it would wipe out the use of transponding, who would bother with such a clumsy system. Also there is the "Not made here" problem, they did not come up with it.
?
NCE probably won't as it would mess up all their old non NMRA compliant decoders, they don't play nice with the cutout used, it needs to be tweaked to let them run. Lenz has had settings in the command station even back years ago for that.
?
Tony
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This topic needs to stay related to JMRI. Some comments are really pushing that.
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Actually, the decoder is not asked 8 questions, one for each bit. In Direct
Bit mode, it’s as 16 questions, because it asks whether each bit is 0 and
then 1, to be sure of a positive answer for one of the questions. No
assumptions here; the bit can’t be assumed to be 1 if it’s not zero,
because something could have gone wrong with the 0 question.
In both Page and Direct Byte mode, it’s up to 256 questions, because it
asks 0, 255, then 1,2,4 up to 254, stopping when it gets an
acknowledgement.
Remember the decoder can only say “yes” as a positive answer. It can’t say
“No” and the command station should not take the lack of an answer to be
the end of the question. It will (should!) only pass back an answer on
positive receipt of “Yes” - ack pulse - responses.
Mick
______________________________________
Mick Moignard
mick@...
p:+44 7774 652504
The week may start M, T, but it always ends WTF!
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Nigel
The NMRA is on the case now on RailCom, in partnership with RailCommunity.
Mick
______________________________________
Mick Moignard
mick@...
p:+44 7774 652504
The week may start M, T, but it always ends WTF!
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Yes the RailCommunity specs. are all in German but if you are a Merg member they are all available to you in English and all up to-date unlike the NMRA versions.
?
RailCom+ is known within the RailCommunity specs. as DCC - A (for automatic login).
?
Michael
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On Fri, 21 Mar 2025 03:55:12 EDT Mick Moignard wrote: Actually, the decoder is not asked 8 questions, one for each bit. In Direct Bit mode, it’s as 16 questions, because it asks whether each bit is 0 and then 1, to be sure of a positive answer for one of the questions. No assumptions here; the bit can’t be assumed to be 1 if it’s not zero, because something could have gone wrong with the 0 question.
This makes sense. Mick – Is this ‘failsafe’ procedure in the NMRA Standards? I’ll try to check. Do you know if there is a command station manufacturer with a lazy coder who made the “if it ain’t 0 it must be 1” assumption?
Mark
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Ken Cameron,
?
You mention JMRI support for Ecos but there is no mention there of the CabControl system.
?
I've been using the CabControl for some months, but haven't yet implemented JMRI on the layout since I'm not to that point yet.
?
I assumed there would be JMRI connectivity with no problems.? I still feel that should be true but in checking on this computer it appears to be thru a wifi link to the CabControl's "esuwifi".
As with many, I have an older computer in the train room, with an ethernet connection to the outside world, and it's not connected to the "esuwifi".?
I know I can run ethernet to the esuwifi but then it gets dodgie...
The CabControl will not hook up to the Internet via ethernet or wifi that I know of, but then again I don't know a lot.
I have yet to figure out how to connect 2 outside sources at once:? I have an ethernet port and the wireless port, but the computer, a Dell XPS, doesn't seem to want to use both at once.
Being a greedy soul, I would prefer to have both Internet and JMRI connections from the computer to the CabControl at the same time...
?
I suppose it's an ESU support issue, but if you have any insight I'd appreciate it!
?
Thanks,
?
Ken Moordigian
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Ken (Cameron),
the JMRI support pages are for the ECoS system,? not the "CabControl" system.? ?There's nothing obvious on the JMRI pages about support for the CabControl system.??
The ESU pages say that connection is possible via the ethernet port, or via WiFi, but that's about it.? ?
- Nigel
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------ Original Message ------
Date 20/03/2025 23:45:19
Subject Re: [jmriusers] Best Command Station to use with Decoder Pro
Tom,
?
The question is if the ESU command station will work with JMRI. If it does, then you have something. But I don’t recall what level of ESU command station support has been written for JMRI. But if you look at this page, it will help you
once your hardware arrives.
?
?
Fundamentally it looks like some degree of support has been around for a number of years.
?
-Ken Cameron, Member JMRI Dev Team
?
?
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I posted that as ‘here is what JMRI knows’ as I know very little about ESU beyond the decoders. Like “what is CabControl” vs the ECoS stuff? ? -Ken Cameron, Member JMRI Dev Team
? ?
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Ken (Moordigian),
first question for JMRI is whether the Cab-Control system is actually supported.? The pages linked are for the ECoS system, which isn't the same thing.? ?
On networking,? you should be able to solve things.? ?There's an ethernet port on the Cab-Control, so if you've a spare port on an ethernet hub/switch which can be reached from the train room, then that provides a wired connection between things.? ?(There
may be some network address ranges to sort out).? ? ? But, without anything in software to support the device, you're still stuck,? so first question needs addressing first.??
Nigel
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------ Original Message ------
Date 21/03/2025 15:29:20
Subject Re: [jmriusers] Best Command Station to use with Decoder Pro
Ken Cameron,
?
You mention JMRI support for Ecos but there is no mention there of the CabControl system.
?
I've been using the CabControl for some months, but haven't yet implemented JMRI on the layout since I'm not to that point yet.
?
I assumed there would be JMRI connectivity with no problems.? I still feel that should be true but in checking on this computer it appears to be thru a wifi link to the CabControl's "esuwifi".
As with many, I have an older computer in the train room, with an ethernet connection to the outside world, and it's not connected to the "esuwifi".?
I know I can run ethernet to the esuwifi but then it gets dodgie...
The CabControl will not hook up to the Internet via ethernet or wifi that I know of, but then again I don't know a lot.
I have yet to figure out how to connect 2 outside sources at once:? I have an ethernet port and the wireless port, but the computer, a Dell XPS, doesn't seem to want to use both at once.
Being a greedy soul, I would prefer to have both Internet and JMRI connections from the computer to the CabControl at the same time...
?
I suppose it's an ESU support issue, but if you have any insight I'd appreciate it!
?
Thanks,
?
Ken Moordigian
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Michael,
The NMRA version of RailCom, S-9.3.2 was published, in English,
back in 2012. See:
The fact that it does not include the latest updates that are
being worked out with the Rail Community is hardly any excuse for
the lack of participation by most US manufacturers.?
On the other hand, the lack of US support for RailCom (which is
virtually unknown the US market place) may be the root cause for
the lack of NMRA volunteer resources available to keep everything
current. The NMRA is its membership, and runs on its volunteers.
My guess is that the NMRA consists mostly of folks from the USA.
If it is lagging behind with RailCom, it is because there is no
volunteer running with that project. Taking a cheap shot at the
NMRA is not really a useful way out of this catch-22 situation.
JMRI does amazingly well at supporting what is being used by its
various contributors, but again, you don't see very much support
for products that we don't use. My guess is that JMRI DecoderPro
support will follow along very closely with NMRA standard product
capabilities and customer choices. I.e. we should purchase systems
that support the best programming options, not expect DecoderPro
to somehow magically make old slow designs work faster.
Dick :)
On 3/21/2025 5:01 AM, Michael Smith via
groups.io wrote:
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Yes the RailCommunity specs. are all in German but if you are
a Merg member they are all available to you in English and all
up to-date unlike the NMRA versions.
?
RailCom+ is known within the RailCommunity specs. as DCC - A
(for automatic login).
?
Michael
|
I recommend Digitrax. I want to see if they were the first ones to adopt USB as a connection point. And it’s been pretty darn solid in the 20 years I’ve been using it. Larry Sloan Eat, Sleep, Work, Play with trains
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On Mar 21, 2025, at 9:04?AM, Ken Cameron via groups.io <kcameron@...> wrote:
? I posted that as ‘here is what JMRI knows’ as I know very little about ESU beyond the decoders. Like “what is CabControl” vs the ECoS stuff? ? -Ken Cameron, Member JMRI Dev Team
? ?
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On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 06:53 AM, Mark Granville wrote:
Do you know if there is a command station manufacturer with a lazy coder who made the “if it ain’t 0 it must be 1” assumption?
I'm aware of one that validates bit by bit as "is it zero" and if there is no ACK then it is assumed to be a one, however, after checking the eight bits it attempts to validate the assembled bits with a follow up PROG packet (0b01110100 as cmd byte). This would generate nine packets on the PROG track per CV to be read.
?
Mike
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Back to the topic? "Best Command Station to use with Decoder Pro
?
I have a Z21 command station from Roco. This works wonderfully with DecoderPro and reads even complex ESU decoders in a few minutes via PoM (Railcom as feedback). The speed advantage over the DCC programming track method with ACK pulses is about 1:15.
?
Uli
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Dick,
It was not a cheap shot at the NMRA as you put it. The fact that the RailCommunity’s RailCom spec. RCN-217 is the fastest changing and largest spec. out of all the DCC specifications and needs updating for the user’s sake. For your information I was contacted some time back by a NMRA member apparently part of the team updating the NMRA’s version of the RailCom spec., he requested a copy of the latest English version of RCN-217 which I duly provided him with (so they have an English copy) and was told they would keep in contact, never heard from him since.
?
To clarify my position in all this, I’m a member of Merg and have taken ALL the RailCommunity’s ??DCC specifications and translated them into English, and keep them up to date. I’m a totally non-paid volunteer and have made all these DCC specs. available to the Merg membership only through their website. So, if Merg can do it the NMRA should be able to as well. If you wish to read the latest DCC specs. join Merg.
?
I’m not sure that it’s a problem of unpaid manpower more the interest in RailCom. I have been involved in the bidirectional element of DCC for quite sometime now and it seems that the North American market doesn’t want to know about RailCom. Digitrax has quite a large hold on the DCC market over there and promote their own Transponding system which is not NMRA compliant and is incompatible with RailCom which is compliant.
?
jmri is the poorer without RailCom and the required hardware is cheap, simple and many decoder have the option built in already. ???
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Since TCS and now MRC are going into RailCom, I think the understanding and interest in RailCom is going to grow in the US. But just like the adoption of LCC, it will take a while. As more products becomes available in the US, more users will get more understanding etc.… ? At some point that will include some willing AND able to help keep the NMRA involved. Right now, I suspect the number of people who feel comfortable with the technology are way too busy with what they are doing either with RailCom or other technology. ? -Ken Cameron, Member JMRI Dev Team
? ?
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Ken Cameron
Ken Moordigian
Mike Dunston
@_Uli_