Good morning,
I am in the planning stages of my layout. I am currently trying to figure out where I need to place my "blocks".
I am using all Digitrax hardware including a Digitrax BXP88 for power management and also block occupancy detection. I believe the BXP88
reports block occupancy status to LocoNet. I'm also using Peco ElectroFrog turnouts. I've watched some videos on youtube
and I'm thinking of setting up my Peco ElectroFrog turnouts so that each one of those turnouts is it's own individual block. I'm planning to use JMRI software
for running my layout and someday maybe CATS software. Someday I plan on adding signals to my layout. I believe there are a couple
of different ways of wiring up the Peco ElectroFrog turnouts. So should I plan on setting up my turnouts so that each one of them is it's own block?
What do you guys think? Is that the best plan?
Thanks,
Tim

I found out right away that I couldn't think of individual items like blocks, signaling, detection, and power feed.
They are all part of a system.

Start out with turnout protection.?
Signals are needed (either real or virtual) on each leg.
Signals reside (usually) at block boundaries.
Some of my turnout track work are close and I consider that set of turnouts as one structure. (think 3-way)
When you run automation, each turnout needs to be a block.
If you plan to detect the turnout, gap each leg.
I didn't burn a detector channel, so I simulated the turnout occupancy (it's tricky)
Sometimes, I seriously thought of detecting certain turnouts.
Generally, you'll assign a JMRI block to an electrical block and detect on the feed.

I use JMRI mast logic, but plan your signals now regardless of signal system you use.
For the time begin you and run automation without signals.
I ran my automation with virtual signals until I installed hardware.

Like carpentry - measure twice cut once - plan twice then build.

--
Ken
NYNH&H, Old Colony Division, Cape Cod Branch (1949-1959)
[DB150][PR3][QuadLN_S][JMRI 5.3.5]

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Tim,

Basically a signal is used to "protect" a "block" from being entered by reason of some conflict, usually either a conflicting route alignment or occupancy by another train.

A "block" is a section of track that may be occupied by only a single train at a time.

A piece of track such as a turnout, a yard ladder, a level crossing, or even a length of single track, are all potential blocks.

For a portion of track that can legitimately hold more than one train at the same time you would normally treat that as multiple blocks. Some examples would be a single or double crossover. In some configurations it may only allow one train to occupy it, but in other configurations there may be two trains. Therefore it must be at least two blocks, one for each possible simultaneous path.

On the other hand a slip switch can only be occupied by a single train at a time, because even if it has the same track connections as a crossover, you can not occupy more than one path at a time. It is therefore only a single block.

From the level crossing example it should be obvious that the same block (the diamond) can be a part of two unrelated routes. This means that signals on two different routes sometimes need to be interlocked with one another. In this case of a diamond, only one of its four possible paths may be cleared at a time.

For automated running even multi-turnout yard leads might need to be detected, but a single block may be all that is required for a whole lead track, again because only one train at a time is allowed to occupy it.

As you are planning for signal blocks you can mentally proceed along each track and make note of possible points of conflict where one train may need to wait on another. Those are where you will add block junctions. (gaps) If you have long sections of single track (typically longer than a train length) you may add a block gap and intermediate signal to allow one train to follow another. The prototype does this often, but normally our models don't allow us this luxury very often, if at all. It is not uncommon for a loco to be entering one town before the cab has left the previous one.

Dick :)

Thanks guys!
So it looks like each of my Peco ElectroFrog turnouts needs to be it's own block. I think what that means is
regardless of whether the train is in the throat of the turnout or in any of it's 2 legs, that block must
report as occupied. I think there are a couple of different ways to wire up a Peco Eletrcofrog turnout so I will
revisit the youtube video (if I can find it again).
Thanks,
Tim

Thanks,?
Yes I know what resistive wheelsets are.? I'm planning to use them on my rolling stock (one for each car axle). I believe the resistive wheelsets draw current and that
allows the Digitrax BXP88 to see that and mark that block as occupied.

I have removed the "springs" that are in my Peco ElectrFrog turnouts. I'm planning to use Tortoise switch machines for controlling my Peco ElectrFrog turnouts.

There is a single wire that drops down from the bottom of these Peco ElectroFrog turnouts. Is the purpose of that wire to "power the frog"?

Can I use a Tam Valley depot frog juicer to power my frog?

Thanks,
Tim

Use one of the spdt switches of the Tortoise motor to switch the frog polarity.
The single wire dropping from the bottom of the point is the wire to power the frog.

It's been half mentioned but just to reinforce it - if a short turnout is its own block, then you will need a LOT of resistor wheelsets at regular intervals, or as soon as the turnout block goes unoccupied, if your train hasn't cleared it, it could get derailed by a points move etc.

There are different types of block detectors, some detect on both rails, some just one. I'd definitely go for a detector that detects on one rail and stick it on the stock rail of a turnout as, with the kind of wiring you're suggesting for electrofrog, over half of the potentially already short turnout rail could be isolated from the rest, making 'full' block detection on both rails either tricky or prone to shorting the block detector.

I agree that having resistors on several axles is OK, however one must ensure that the resistor wheel set does not cause other problems Just last week while cleaning wheels and checking their gauge on a train club car I noticed that one axle’s resistor was catching on a coupler box’s round head screw. (The resistor was a typical looking resistor with a wire coming out of both ends.) Moving the resistor’d axle to the other spot, or turning the truck around, solved the problem.
John H
Harrington, DE

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I have one resistor per truck (47K) I use the inside axle, away from the coupler pocket for the reason that you describe. ?I like the surface mount resistors as they are very compact. ?I especially like how to do them on metal axles where they lay up on the insulator for the axle. ?The resistor is superglued in place and I use conductive paint to make the connection.

Good day,
I have been studying this web page to figure out how to modify my Peco Electrfrog turnouts. Pretty straight forward.
I have also been studying this youtube video.,.....?

I have a question.......
This is from one of the web pages I have been looking at it.
It says...........
##########
Using the factory installed wire at the heel of the frog connect a??or a SPDT switch to power the frog. This restores power to the frog and sets up a control mechanism which maintains the correct phase relationships to the frog and point rails as a train goes through the turnout. A??with contacts may also perform this function.

Just a note from a guy who took a 28 block DC layout to a 48 block DCC? layout by isolating the turnouts.? For single turnouts, place a signal at least 40 scale feet from the points end of the turnout.? For the frog end of the turnout the turnout number and turnout configuration matters a lot.? For example a No 6 double crossover with 2 inch separation is 40-50 ft from the frog. A number 9 measured about 80 scale feet and a Peco double curved turnout measured about 72 scale feet.? This means that unless you scratch build each turnout there is a little length of rail on each end of the turnout. So don't cut the rail until the track is in place.? Since track configuration matters my advice is to use 2 NMRA track gages and slide them along the frog rails until they touch.? That's the nearest point to cut the rail.??
Another note on resistor wheelsets.? Unless the wheelset somehow can conflict with part of the underside of the car, place it on the outside of the truck.? This is important for backing movements.? Also a thought on detection.? Each time a resistor wheelset enters the block, the resistive value detected halves.??
And a note on the actual signals? My 48 block layout was going to require 92 signal heads.? But looking at the layout on the computer I was able to determine which signals were not really necessary to place on the layout.? They are still part of the signaling system, just not on the layout.

Love PECO turnouts.? Used them for 30 years and had very few failures.

--
Don Weigt
Connecticut

As Wouter pointed out, this topic has strayed way past anything to do with JMRI. Further discussion on wiring, resister wheelsets, etc need to be taken elsewhere.

--
Peter Ulvestad

JMRI Users Group Moderator ( )
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Edmonton Model Railroad Association ( )