Here is an interesting subject that was the source of some good discussion on the ibmpension board that was prematurely cut off by a moderator. I am posting the entire thread here and inviting responses to any or all of the messages.

#73901 From: chz_whiz
Date: Sat Oct 20, 2012 2:37 pm

Corporate America is finally ready to deal with a monkey on its back: massive pension obligations.

;

sion-risk-with-lump-sum-offers/

or



Important excerpt:

"We hope people think really carefully about the decision," said Nancy Hwa, a spokeswoman for Pension Rights Center, a consumer organization in Washington,

D.C. "It's very easy to be tempted by this large sum of money initially, and it's easy to spend it on something other than retirement."

#73902 From: willbefree25
Date: Sat Oct 20, 2012 4:49 pm

"It's very easy to be tempted by this large sum of money initially, and it's easy to spend it on something other than retirement."

Duh. That's correct. Remember what a great man once said, and let it be a warning to everyone naive enough to think about choosing the lump sum, since IBM 'wants' you to choose the lump sum:

#73903 From: samuel bernadino <w2uhasam@>
Date: Sat Oct 20, 2012 9:33 pm

has any one been offered a lump sum or is this all conjecture?
#73905 From: justa_bean_counter

Date: Sat Oct 20, 2012 10:39 pm

No vested terminated participants at IBM have been offered a lump sum. However, employees of corporations, other than IBM, stay focused to this group, including some from companies who HAVE offered the de-risking pension buy-out.

Kathi

#73906 From: "donwshuper50" <donwshuper50@>
Date: Sat Oct 20, 2012 11:56 pm

KATHI . . . No vested terminated participants at IBM have been offered a lump sum. . .

maybe that should read . . . offered a lump sum YET !! ??

Doc don

#73907 From: willbefree25
Date: Sun Oct 21, 2012 11:47 am

No VTPs at IBM have been offered a lump sum, YET, but since the original poster asked:

"has any one been offered a lump sum"

emphasis on 'any one', it WAS shoved down the throats of the No Choicers in 1999 and an attempt was made (thank you Janet et al who fought it and stared down the evil Socks Bouchard) to shove it down the throats of the Second Choicers in 1999. No attempt was made (what a surprise!) to shove it down the throats of those grandfathered aka the IGMs to the annuity pension (see a warning there?)in 1999.

I'm guessing the executives and managers and CEOs (TFL, SB, BBG?) haven't had it shoved down their throats either.

If you're still in doubt, see this very good article on why you shouldn't think IBM has your best interests at heart when they 'oh so generously' offer you VTPs a lump sum:



You've been warned. If you're naive, then as a very wise IGMer here said:

...Then there were the ones who were somewhat naive but as much as you would tell them to plan for the future they said IBM will take are of them. After the 1st massive layoff in 1993 it was apparent that the future changed and you'd better watch your back. That was the shot heard across the bow and if ignored then you got what you got. My compassion left and it was time to refocus on my career and family. So goes it and I made my own decision to leave on my terms.

Just as simple as that. Life is Great IGM<<

So come on, VTPs, don't 'get what you get' because you are too naive to know IBM is evil. Regard:

"The amount of money at stake is too good and that's all THEY (emphasis mine)

care about — access to that money, not American workers."

THEY being IBM.

You've been warned.

#73908 From: "Steve" <stevejm1935@>
Date: Sun Oct 21, 2012 5:07 pm

No one in IBM-US has been offered a lump sum pension. However, employees of other corporations have, and it's s REASONABLE conjecture that at least SOME IBM employees and retirees will be. I believe an IBM executive is involved in a relevant organization.

#73910 From: fhawontcutit
Date: Sun Oct 21, 2012 6:05 pm

- In ibmpension@..., samuel bernadino <w2uhasam@> wrote:

has any one been offered a lump sum or is this all conjecture?

From the article:

"In a survey released earlier this year by Aon Hewitt, 35 percent of about 500 large American employers expect to offer a lump sum payout."

Companies with lump-sum pension offers:



#73911 From: "Kevin W" <nowwicked@>
Date: Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:06 am

I would agree with the YET.

I don't see any reason IBM would not pursue this path.

Between the reduced liabilities and the ability to possibly convince thousands of people to voluntarily leave the workforce, the savings potential is too much for the company to pass up.

I'm still expected the email that says, "If you are eligible for the pension and have not yet retired, you must retire by xyz date or we will convert your pension to the new plan or a lump sum."

#73912 From: CHARLES LYNCH <cflynch56@>
Date: Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:53 am

Hi, I was laid off in March and will start working again tomorrow for a company in Poughkeepsie, NY. I took a class with my transition money at Dutchess and it worked out.

As far as the pension discussion, my wife worked for Macy's and had a pension but we just found out it was converted to a cash balance account which would not buy a quart of milk.....

#73913 From: "Kevin W" <nowwicked@>
Date: Mon Oct 22, 2012 6:21 pm

Cash balance offers I don't expect will be very valuable to most of us, with the exception of folks who know they have a limited time to live and have done the math, don't have a surviving spouse who could benefit or other relatives.

#73914 From: "Q" <nguy4444@>
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:10 am

--- In ibmpension@..., "Kevin W" <nowwicked@> wrote:

I'm still expected the email that says, "If you are eligible for the pension and have not yet retired, you must retire by xyz date or we will convert your pension to the new plan or a lump sum."

The above statement I fully agree with. I was at an IBM conference recently and ended up in conversation with about a dozen other IBMers, all (including me) on the old plan and eligible to retire. Two things we all agreed on. That the above statement will happen, and that sometime either in 2014 or 2015 IBM will move employees and retirees as much as possible to the health exchanges.

My guess is that the majority of IBM employees still on the old plan expect these to happen... and our focus now is how prepare as best as possible for when those items occur.

#73917 From: "teamb562" <teamb562@>
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2012 11:13 am

Was there any speculation whether we will be able to use FHA funds to pay for the health care exchanges?

#73921 From: "Q" <nguy4444@>
Date: Sun Oct 28, 2012 4:32 pm

We felt that, if we were allowed to use FHA funds for the exchanges, there would be some kind of "catch" to it. It which case the best one could hope for is to use the FHA for the approved "private" insurance (which will last even shorter than it does now) before moving to the exchange.

Again, no special insight or knowledge - just a group of us discussing and sharing ideas and how to best prepare, based on future likelihoods.

#73922 From: justa_bean_counter
Date: Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:28 pm

Please, no more speculative posting on health care options of the future.

Kathi

As a retiree, I am lucky enough to have IBM health care coverage and, although our benefits seem to shrink a bit more every year, having IBM coverage is much better than having no coverage. Given Obamacare, IBM may very well decide to stop offering coverage to retirees. I've studied Obamacare and have found that it offers me few benefits, so I'm hoping that it will be repealed in 2013, shortly after Obama starts spending more time with his family.

--- In ibmpensionissues@..., flatiron_blues <no_reply@> wrote:

Here is an interesting subject that was the source of some good discussion on the ibmpension board that was prematurely cut off by a moderator. I am posting the entire thread here and inviting responses to any or all of the messages.

#73901 From: chz_whiz
Date: Sat Oct 20, 2012 2:37 pm

Corporate America is finally ready to deal with a monkey on its back: massive pension obligations.

;

sion-risk-with-lump-sum-offers/

or



Important excerpt:

"We hope people think really carefully about the decision," said Nancy Hwa, a spokeswoman for Pension Rights Center, a consumer organization in Washington,

D.C. "It's very easy to be tempted by this large sum of money initially, and it's easy to spend it on something other than retirement."

#73902 From: willbefree25
Date: Sat Oct 20, 2012 4:49 pm

"It's very easy to be tempted by this large sum of money initially, and it's easy to spend it on something other than retirement."

Duh. That's correct. Remember what a great man once said, and let it be a warning to everyone naive enough to think about choosing the lump sum, since IBM 'wants' you to choose the lump sum:

#73903 From: samuel bernadino <w2uhasam@>
Date: Sat Oct 20, 2012 9:33 pm

has any one been offered a lump sum or is this all conjecture?
#73905 From: justa_bean_counter

Date: Sat Oct 20, 2012 10:39 pm

No vested terminated participants at IBM have been offered a lump sum. However, employees of corporations, other than IBM, stay focused to this group, including some from companies who HAVE offered the de-risking pension buy-out.

Kathi

#73906 From: "donwshuper50" <donwshuper50@>
Date: Sat Oct 20, 2012 11:56 pm

KATHI . . . No vested terminated participants at IBM have been offered a lump sum. . .

maybe that should read . . . offered a lump sum YET !! ??

Doc don

#73907 From: willbefree25
Date: Sun Oct 21, 2012 11:47 am

No VTPs at IBM have been offered a lump sum, YET, but since the original poster asked:

"has any one been offered a lump sum"

emphasis on 'any one', it WAS shoved down the throats of the No Choicers in 1999 and an attempt was made (thank you Janet et al who fought it and stared down the evil Socks Bouchard) to shove it down the throats of the Second Choicers in 1999. No attempt was made (what a surprise!) to shove it down the throats of those grandfathered aka the IGMs to the annuity pension (see a warning there?)in 1999.

I'm guessing the executives and managers and CEOs (TFL, SB, BBG?) haven't had it shoved down their throats either.

If you're still in doubt, see this very good article on why you shouldn't think IBM has your best interests at heart when they 'oh so generously' offer you VTPs a lump sum:



You've been warned. If you're naive, then as a very wise IGMer here said:

...Then there were the ones who were somewhat naive but as much as you would tell them to plan for the future they said IBM will take are of them. After the 1st massive layoff in 1993 it was apparent that the future changed and you'd better watch your back. That was the shot heard across the bow and if ignored then you got what you got. My compassion left and it was time to refocus on my career and family. So goes it and I made my own decision to leave on my terms.

Just as simple as that. Life is Great IGM<<

So come on, VTPs, don't 'get what you get' because you are too naive to know IBM is evil. Regard:

"The amount of money at stake is too good and that's all THEY (emphasis mine)

care about — access to that money, not American workers."

THEY being IBM.

You've been warned.

#73908 From: "Steve" <stevejm1935@>
Date: Sun Oct 21, 2012 5:07 pm

No one in IBM-US has been offered a lump sum pension. However, employees of other corporations have, and it's s REASONABLE conjecture that at least SOME IBM employees and retirees will be. I believe an IBM executive is involved in a relevant organization.

#73910 From: fhawontcutit
Date: Sun Oct 21, 2012 6:05 pm

- In ibmpension@..., samuel bernadino <w2uhasam@> wrote:

has any one been offered a lump sum or is this all conjecture?

From the article:

"In a survey released earlier this year by Aon Hewitt, 35 percent of about 500 large American employers expect to offer a lump sum payout."

Companies with lump-sum pension offers:



#73911 From: "Kevin W" <nowwicked@>
Date: Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:06 am

I would agree with the YET.

I don't see any reason IBM would not pursue this path.

Between the reduced liabilities and the ability to possibly convince thousands of people to voluntarily leave the workforce, the savings potential is too much for the company to pass up.

I'm still expected the email that says, "If you are eligible for the pension and have not yet retired, you must retire by xyz date or we will convert your pension to the new plan or a lump sum."

#73912 From: CHARLES LYNCH <cflynch56@>
Date: Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:53 am

Hi, I was laid off in March and will start working again tomorrow for a company in Poughkeepsie, NY. I took a class with my transition money at Dutchess and it worked out.

As far as the pension discussion, my wife worked for Macy's and had a pension but we just found out it was converted to a cash balance account which would not buy a quart of milk.....

#73913 From: "Kevin W" <nowwicked@>
Date: Mon Oct 22, 2012 6:21 pm

Cash balance offers I don't expect will be very valuable to most of us, with the exception of folks who know they have a limited time to live and have done the math, don't have a surviving spouse who could benefit or other relatives.

#73914 From: "Q" <nguy4444@>
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:10 am

--- In ibmpension@..., "Kevin W" <nowwicked@> wrote:

I'm still expected the email that says, "If you are eligible for the pension and have not yet retired, you must retire by xyz date or we will convert your pension to the new plan or a lump sum."

The above statement I fully agree with. I was at an IBM conference recently and ended up in conversation with about a dozen other IBMers, all (including me) on the old plan and eligible to retire. Two things we all agreed on. That the above statement will happen, and that sometime either in 2014 or 2015 IBM will move employees and retirees as much as possible to the health exchanges.

My guess is that the majority of IBM employees still on the old plan expect these to happen... and our focus now is how prepare as best as possible for when those items occur.

#73917 From: "teamb562" <teamb562@>
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2012 11:13 am

Was there any speculation whether we will be able to use FHA funds to pay for the health care exchanges?

#73921 From: "Q" <nguy4444@>
Date: Sun Oct 28, 2012 4:32 pm

We felt that, if we were allowed to use FHA funds for the exchanges, there would be some kind of "catch" to it. It which case the best one could hope for is to use the FHA for the approved "private" insurance (which will last even shorter than it does now) before moving to the exchange.

Again, no special insight or knowledge - just a group of us discussing and sharing ideas and how to best prepare, based on future likelihoods.

#73922 From: justa_bean_counter
Date: Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:28 pm

Please, no more speculative posting on health care options of the future.

Kathi

You are hoping PPACA gets repealed?

As a retiree, I am lucky enough to have IBM health care coverage and, although

--- In ibmpensionissues@..., flatiron_blues <no_reply@> wrote:

Here is an interesting subject that was the source of some good discussion

#73901 From: chz_whiz
Date: Sat Oct 20, 2012 2:37 pm

Corporate America is finally ready to deal with a monkey on its back:

sion-risk-with-lump-sum-offers/

or



Important excerpt:

"We hope people think really carefully about the decision," said Nancy Hwa,

D.C. "It's very easy to be tempted by this large sum of money initially, and

#73902 From: willbefree25
Date: Sat Oct 20, 2012 4:49 pm

"It's very easy to be tempted by this large sum of money initially, and

Duh. That's correct. Remember what a great man once said, and let it be a

#73903 From: samuel bernadino <w2uhasam@>
Date: Sat Oct 20, 2012 9:33 pm

has any one been offered a lump sum or is this all conjecture?
#73905 From: justa_bean_counter

Date: Sat Oct 20, 2012 10:39 pm

No vested terminated participants at IBM have been offered a lump sum.

Kathi

#73906 From: "donwshuper50" <donwshuper50@>
Date: Sat Oct 20, 2012 11:56 pm

KATHI . . . No vested terminated participants at IBM have been offered a

maybe that should read . . . offered a lump sum YET !! ??

Doc don

#73907 From: willbefree25
Date: Sun Oct 21, 2012 11:47 am

No VTPs at IBM have been offered a lump sum, YET, but since the original

"has any one been offered a lump sum"

emphasis on 'any one', it WAS shoved down the throats of the No Choicers in

I'm guessing the executives and managers and CEOs (TFL, SB, BBG?) haven't

If you're still in doubt, see this very good article on why you shouldn't

You've been warned. If you're naive, then as a very wise IGMer here said:

...Then there were the ones who were somewhat naive but as much as you

Just as simple as that. Life is Great IGM<<

So come on, VTPs, don't 'get what you get' because you are too naive to know

"The amount of money at stake is too good and that's all THEY (emphasis

care about — access to that money, not American workers."

THEY being IBM.

You've been warned.

#73908 From: "Steve" <stevejm1935@>
Date: Sun Oct 21, 2012 5:07 pm

No one in IBM-US has been offered a lump sum pension. However, employees of

#73910 From: fhawontcutit
Date: Sun Oct 21, 2012 6:05 pm

- In ibmpension@..., samuel bernadino <w2uhasam@> wrote:

has any one been offered a lump sum or is this all conjecture?

From the article:

"In a survey released earlier this year by Aon Hewitt, 35 percent of about

Companies with lump-sum pension offers:



#73911 From: "Kevin W" <nowwicked@>
Date: Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:06 am

I would agree with the YET.

I don't see any reason IBM would not pursue this path.

Between the reduced liabilities and the ability to possibly convince

I'm still expected the email that says, "If you are eligible for the pension

#73912 From: CHARLES LYNCH <cflynch56@>
Date: Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:53 am

Hi, I was laid off in March and will start working again tomorrow for a

As far as the pension discussion, my wife worked for Macy's and had a

#73913 From: "Kevin W" <nowwicked@>
Date: Mon Oct 22, 2012 6:21 pm

Cash balance offers I don't expect will be very valuable to most of us, with

#73914 From: "Q" <nguy4444@>
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:10 am

--- In ibmpension@..., "Kevin W" <nowwicked@> wrote:

I'm still expected the email that says, "If you are eligible for the

The above statement I fully agree with. I was at an IBM conference recently

My guess is that the majority of IBM employees still on the old plan expect

#73917 From: "teamb562" <teamb562@>
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2012 11:13 am

Was there any speculation whether we will be able to use FHA funds to pay

#73921 From: "Q" <nguy4444@>
Date: Sun Oct 28, 2012 4:32 pm

We felt that, if we were allowed to use FHA funds for the exchanges, there

Again, no special insight or knowledge - just a group of us discussing and

#73922 From: justa_bean_counter
Date: Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:28 pm

Please, no more speculative posting on health care options of the future.

Kathi

---

From: "zimowski@..."
To: ibmpensionissues@...
Sent: Sunday, November 4, 2012 12:11 PM
Subject: [ibmpensionissues] Re: U.S. companies take aim at pension risk with lump-sum offers

?

Given the age and dwindling numbers of those still receiving IBM retiree health care coverage, I don't really believe that IBM has much to gain by terminating their coverage. In just a few short years, most will be covered by medicare. In fact, my belief is that IBM is more likely to drop retiree health care coverage in 2013 because of PPACA. Further, if PPACA were repealed, ever indication is that it would be replaced with a program that turns over healthcare to individual states. As a Californian, I favor this approach for many reasons including the fact that the average Californian is typically in better health than someone of similar age in many other states. As stated previously, I've looked at PPACA and find that it has limited value to me. Have you looked at the covered preventative care list? Not very interesting given that hardly anything is covered. I'd prefer a program that is tailored more to the needs of those living in my state.

As far as 3Q revenue goes, very few large international corporations beat on the top line. In fact, very few of any size beat on the top line. A sign of the times - Europe still a mess, slowing of growth in China, a struggling recovery in the U.S. IBM will do just fine as the world recovers from this recession.

--- In ibmpensionissues@..., "teamb562" <teamb562@...> wrote:

You are hoping PPACA gets repealed? You do realize companies are under NO
obligation to provide healthcare to anyone, with or without PPACA. PPACA may be
your only choice someday and you hope it gets repealed? Really? And replace it
with what, Massachusetts Romneycare? Did you notice ibm's 3Q revenue sucked.
Gee, any speculation as to what that may/could mean for pensions, healthcare?

--- In ibmpensionissues@..., "zimowski@..." wrote:
>
> As a retiree, I am lucky enough to have IBM health care coverage and, although
our benefits seem to shrink a bit more every year, having IBM coverage is much
better than having no coverage. Given Obamacare, IBM may very well decide to
stop offering coverage to retirees. I've studied Obamacare and have found that
it offers me few benefits, so I'm hoping that it will be repealed in 2013,
shortly after Obama starts spending more time with his family.
>
> --- In ibmpensionissues@..., flatiron_blues wrote:
> >
> > Here is an interesting subject that was the source of some good discussion
on the ibmpension board that was prematurely cut off by a moderator. I am
posting the entire thread here and inviting responses to any or all of the
messages.
> >
> > #73901 From: chz_whiz
> > Date: Sat Oct 20, 2012 2:37 pm
> >
> > Corporate America is finally ready to deal with a monkey on its back:
massive pension obligations.
> >
> >
> >
> > sion-risk-with-lump-sum-offers/
> >
> > or
> >
> >
> >
> > Important excerpt:
> >
> > "We hope people think really carefully about the decision," said Nancy Hwa,
a spokeswoman for Pension Rights Center, a consumer organization in Washington,
> >
> > D.C. "It's very easy to be tempted by this large sum of money initially, and
it's easy to spend it on something other than retirement."
> >
> > #73902 From: willbefree25
> > Date: Sat Oct 20, 2012 4:49 pm
> >
> > >>"It's very easy to be tempted by this large sum of money initially, and
it's easy to spend it on something other than retirement."
> >
> > Duh. That's correct. Remember what a great man once said, and let it be a
warning to everyone naive enough to think about choosing the lump sum, since IBM
'wants' you to choose the lump sum:
> >
> > #73903 From: samuel bernadino
> > Date: Sat Oct 20, 2012 9:33 pm
> >
> > has any one been offered a lump sum or is this all conjecture?
> > #73905 From: justa_bean_counter
> >
> > Date: Sat Oct 20, 2012 10:39 pm
> >
> > No vested terminated participants at IBM have been offered a lump sum.
However, employees of corporations, other than IBM, stay focused to this group,
including some from companies who HAVE offered the de-risking pension buy-out.
> >
> > Kathi
> >
> > #73906 From: "donwshuper50"
> > Date: Sat Oct 20, 2012 11:56 pm
> >
> > KATHI . . . No vested terminated participants at IBM have been offered a
lump sum. . .
> >
> > maybe that should read . . . offered a lump sum YET !! ??
> >
> > Doc don
> >
> > #73907 From: willbefree25
> > Date: Sun Oct 21, 2012 11:47 am
> >
> > No VTPs at IBM have been offered a lump sum, YET, but since the original
poster asked:
> >
> > "has any one been offered a lump sum"
> >
> > emphasis on 'any one', it WAS shoved down the throats of the No Choicers in
1999 and an attempt was made (thank you Janet et al who fought it and stared
down the evil Socks Bouchard) to shove it down the throats of the Second
Choicers in 1999. No attempt was made (what a surprise!) to shove it down the
throats of those grandfathered aka the IGMs to the annuity pension (see a
warning there?)in 1999.
> >
> > I'm guessing the executives and managers and CEOs (TFL, SB, BBG?) haven't
had it shoved down their throats either.
> >
> > If you're still in doubt, see this very good article on why you shouldn't
think IBM has your best interests at heart when they 'oh so generously' offer
you VTPs a lump sum:
> >
> >
> >
> > You've been warned. If you're naive, then as a very wise IGMer here said:
> >
> > >>...Then there were the ones who were somewhat naive but as much as you
would tell them to plan for the future they said IBM will take are of them.
After the 1st massive layoff in 1993 it was apparent that the future changed and
you'd better watch your back. That was the shot heard across the bow and if
ignored then you got what you got. My compassion left and it was time to refocus
on my career and family. So goes it and I made my own decision to leave on my
terms.
> >
> > Just as simple as that. Life is Great IGM<<
> >
> > So come on, VTPs, don't 'get what you get' because you are too naive to know
IBM is evil. Regard:
> >
> > "The amount of money at stake is too good and that's all THEY (emphasis
mine)
> >
> > care about — access to that money, not American workers."
> >
> > THEY being IBM.
> >
> > You've been warned.
> >
> > #73908 From: "Steve"
> > Date: Sun Oct 21, 2012 5:07 pm
> >
> > No one in IBM-US has been offered a lump sum pension. However, employees of
other corporations have, and it's s REASONABLE conjecture that at least SOME
IBM employees and retirees will be. I believe an IBM executive is involved in a
relevant organization.
> >
> > #73910 From: fhawontcutit
> > Date: Sun Oct 21, 2012 6:05 pm
> >
> > - In ibmpension@..., samuel bernadino wrote:
> >
> > > has any one been offered a lump sum or is this all conjecture?
> >
> > From the article:
> >
> > "In a survey released earlier this year by Aon Hewitt, 35 percent of about
500 large American employers expect to offer a lump sum payout."
> >
> > Companies with lump-sum pension offers:
> >
> >
> >
> > #73911 From: "Kevin W"
> > Date: Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:06 am
> >
> > I would agree with the YET.
> >
> > I don't see any reason IBM would not pursue this path.
> >
> > Between the reduced liabilities and the ability to possibly convince
thousands of people to voluntarily leave the workforce, the savings potential is
too much for the company to pass up.
> >
> > I'm still expected the email that says, "If you are eligible for the pension
and have not yet retired, you must retire by xyz date or we will convert your
pension to the new plan or a lump sum."
> >
> > #73912 From: CHARLES LYNCH
> > Date: Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:53 am
> >
> > Hi, I was laid off in March and will start working again tomorrow for a
company in Poughkeepsie, NY. I took a class with my transition money at Dutchess
and it worked out.
> >
> > As far as the pension discussion, my wife worked for Macy's and had a
pension but we just found out it was converted to a cash balance account which
would not buy a quart of milk.....
> >
> > #73913 From: "Kevin W"
> > Date: Mon Oct 22, 2012 6:21 pm
> >
> > Cash balance offers I don't expect will be very valuable to most of us, with
the exception of folks who know they have a limited time to live and have done
the math, don't have a surviving spouse who could benefit or other relatives.
> >
> > #73914 From: "Q"
> > Date: Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:10 am
> >
> > --- In ibmpension@..., "Kevin W" wrote:
> >
> > > I'm still expected the email that says, "If you are eligible for the
pension and have not yet retired, you must retire by xyz date or we will convert
your pension to the new plan or a lump sum."
> >
> > The above statement I fully agree with. I was at an IBM conference recently
and ended up in conversation with about a dozen other IBMers, all (including me)
on the old plan and eligible to retire. Two things we all agreed on. That the
above statement will happen, and that sometime either in 2014 or 2015 IBM will
move employees and retirees as much as possible to the health exchanges.
> >
> > My guess is that the majority of IBM employees still on the old plan expect
these to happen... and our focus now is how prepare as best as possible for when
those items occur.
> >
> > #73917 From: "teamb562"
> > Date: Fri Oct 26, 2012 11:13 am
> >
> > Was there any speculation whether we will be able to use FHA funds to pay
for the health care exchanges?
> >
> > #73921 From: "Q"
> > Date: Sun Oct 28, 2012 4:32 pm
> >
> > We felt that, if we were allowed to use FHA funds for the exchanges, there
would be some kind of "catch" to it. It which case the best one could hope for
is to use the FHA for the approved "private" insurance (which will last even
shorter than it does now) before moving to the exchange.
> >
> > Again, no special insight or knowledge - just a group of us discussing and
sharing ideas and how to best prepare, based on future likelihoods.
> >
> > #73922 From: justa_bean_counter
> > Date: Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:28 pm
> >
> > Please, no more speculative posting on health care options of the future.
> >
> > Kathi
> >
>

?

Aren't you sorry that you woke up this morning.

You seem to be saying that each day brings you less than the previous one.

?

---

From: "zimowski@..." <zimowski@...>
To: ibmpensionissues@...
Sent: Sunday, November 4, 2012 12:11 PM
Subject: [ibmpensionissues] Re: U.S. companies take aim at pension risk with lump-sum offers

?

Given the age and dwindling numbers of those still receiving IBM retiree health care coverage, I don't really believe that IBM has much to gain by terminating their coverage. In just a few short years, most will be covered by medicare. In fact, my belief is that IBM is more likely to drop retiree health care coverage in 2013 because of PPACA. Further, if PPACA were repealed, ever indication is that it would be replaced with a program that turns over healthcare to individual states. As a Californian, I favor this approach for many reasons including the fact that the average Californian is typically in better health than someone of similar age in many other states. As stated previously, I've looked at PPACA and find that it has limited value to me. Have you looked at the covered preventative care list? Not very interesting given that hardly anything is covered. I'd prefer a program that is tailored more to the needs of those living in my state.

As far as 3Q revenue goes, very few large international corporations beat on the top line. In fact, very few of any size beat on the top line. A sign of the times - Europe still a mess, slowing of growth in China, a struggling recovery in the U.S. IBM will do just fine as the world recovers from this recession.

--- In ibmpensionissues@..., "teamb562" <teamb562@...> wrote:

You are hoping PPACA gets repealed? You do realize companies are under NO
obligation to provide healthcare to anyone, with or without PPACA. PPACA may be
your only choice someday and you hope it gets repealed? Really? And replace it
with what, Massachusetts Romneycare? Did you notice ibm's 3Q revenue sucked.
Gee, any speculation as to what that may/could mean for pensions, healthcare?

--- In ibmpensionissues@..., "zimowski@..." wrote:
>
> As a retiree, I am lucky enough to have IBM health care coverage and, although
our benefits seem to shrink a bit more every year, having IBM coverage is much
better than having no coverage. Given Obamacare, IBM may very well decide to
stop offering coverage to retirees. I've studied Obamacare and have found that
it offers me few benefits, so I'm hoping that it will be repealed in 2013,
shortly after Obama starts spending more time with his family.
>
> --- In ibmpensionissues@..., flatiron_blues wrote:
> >
> > Here is an interesting subject that was the source of some good discussion
on the ibmpension board that was prematurely cut off by a moderator. I am
posting the entire thread here and inviting responses to any or all of the
messages.
> >
> > #73901 From: chz_whiz
> > Date: Sat Oct 20, 2012 2:37 pm
> >
> > Corporate America is finally ready to deal with a monkey on its back:
massive pension obligations.
> >
> >
> >
> > sion-risk-with-lump-sum-offers/
> >
> > or
> >
> >
> >
> > Important excerpt:
> >
> > "We hope people think really carefully about the decision," said Nancy Hwa,
a spokeswoman for Pension Rights Center, a consumer organization in Washington,
> >
> > D.C. "It's very easy to be tempted by this large sum of money initially, and
it's easy to spend it on something other than retirement."
> >
> > #73902 From: willbefree25
> > Date: Sat Oct 20, 2012 4:49 pm
> >
> > >>"It's very easy to be tempted by this large sum of money initially, and
it's easy to spend it on something other than retirement."
> >
> > Duh. That's correct. Remember what a great man once said, and let it be a
warning to everyone naive enough to think about choosing the lump sum, since IBM
'wants' you to choose the lump sum:
> >
> > #73903 From: samuel bernadino
> > Date: Sat Oct 20, 2012 9:33 pm
> >
> > has any one been offered a lump sum or is this all conjecture?
> > #73905 From: justa_bean_counter
> >
> > Date: Sat Oct 20, 2012 10:39 pm
> >
> > No vested terminated participants at IBM have been offered a lump sum.
However, employees of corporations, other than IBM, stay focused to this group,
including some from companies who HAVE offered the de-risking pension buy-out.
> >
> > Kathi
> >
> > #73906 From: "donwshuper50"
> > Date: Sat Oct 20, 2012 11:56 pm
> >
> > KATHI . . . No vested terminated participants at IBM have been offered a
lump sum. . .
> >
> > maybe that should read . . . offered a lump sum YET !! ??
> >
> > Doc don
> >
> > #73907 From: willbefree25
> > Date: Sun Oct 21, 2012 11:47 am
> >
> > No VTPs at IBM have been offered a lump sum, YET, but since the original
poster asked:
> >
> > "has any one been offered a lump sum"
> >
> > emphasis on 'any one', it WAS shoved down the throats of the No Choicers in
1999 and an attempt was made (thank you Janet et al who fought it and stared
down the evil Socks Bouchard) to shove it down the throats of the Second
Choicers in 1999. No attempt was made (what a surprise!) to shove it down the
throats of those grandfathered aka the IGMs to the annuity pension (see a
warning there?)in 1999.
> >
> > I'm guessing the executives and managers and CEOs (TFL, SB, BBG?) haven't
had it shoved down their throats either.
> >
> > If you're still in doubt, see this very good article on why you shouldn't
think IBM has your best interests at heart when they 'oh so generously' offer
you VTPs a lump sum:
> >
> >
> >
> > You've been warned. If you're naive, then as a very wise IGMer here said:
> >
> > >>...Then there were the ones who were somewhat naive but as much as you
would tell them to plan for the future they said IBM will take are of them.
After the 1st massive layoff in 1993 it was apparent that the future changed and
you'd better watch your back. That was the shot heard across the bow and if
ignored then you got what you got. My compassion left and it was time to refocus
on my career and family. So goes it and I made my own decision to leave on my
terms.
> >
> > Just as simple as that. Life is Great IGM<<
> >
> > So come on, VTPs, don't 'get what you get' because you are too naive to know
IBM is evil. Regard:
> >
> > "The amount of money at stake is too good and that's all THEY (emphasis
mine)
> >
> > care about — access to that money, not American workers."
> >
> > THEY being IBM.
> >
> > You've been warned.
> >
> > #73908 From: "Steve"
> > Date: Sun Oct 21, 2012 5:07 pm
> >
> > No one in IBM-US has been offered a lump sum pension. However, employees of
other corporations have, and it's s REASONABLE conjecture that at least SOME
IBM employees and retirees will be. I believe an IBM executive is involved in a
relevant organization.
> >
> > #73910 From: fhawontcutit
> > Date: Sun Oct 21, 2012 6:05 pm
> >
> > - In ibmpension@..., samuel bernadino wrote:
> >
> > > has any one been offered a lump sum or is this all conjecture?
> >
> > From the article:
> >
> > "In a survey released earlier this year by Aon Hewitt, 35 percent of about
500 large American employers expect to offer a lump sum payout."
> >
> > Companies with lump-sum pension offers:
> >
> >
> >
> > #73911 From: "Kevin W"
> > Date: Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:06 am
> >
> > I would agree with the YET.
> >
> > I don't see any reason IBM would not pursue this path.
> >
> > Between the reduced liabilities and the ability to possibly convince
thousands of people to voluntarily leave the workforce, the savings potential is
too much for the company to pass up.
> >
> > I'm still expected the email that says, "If you are eligible for the pension
and have not yet retired, you must retire by xyz date or we will convert your
pension to the new plan or a lump sum."
> >
> > #73912 From: CHARLES LYNCH
> > Date: Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:53 am
> >
> > Hi, I was laid off in March and will start working again tomorrow for a
company in Poughkeepsie, NY. I took a class with my transition money at Dutchess
and it worked out.
> >
> > As far as the pension discussion, my wife worked for Macy's and had a
pension but we just found out it was converted to a cash balance account which
would not buy a quart of milk.....
> >
> > #73913 From: "Kevin W"
> > Date: Mon Oct 22, 2012 6:21 pm
> >
> > Cash balance offers I don't expect will be very valuable to most of us, with
the exception of folks who know they have a limited time to live and have done
the math, don't have a surviving spouse who could benefit or other relatives.
> >
> > #73914 From: "Q"
> > Date: Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:10 am
> >
> > --- In ibmpension@..., "Kevin W" wrote:
> >
> > > I'm still expected the email that says, "If you are eligible for the
pension and have not yet retired, you must retire by xyz date or we will convert
your pension to the new plan or a lump sum."
> >
> > The above statement I fully agree with. I was at an IBM conference recently
and ended up in conversation with about a dozen other IBMers, all (including me)
on the old plan and eligible to retire. Two things we all agreed on. That the
above statement will happen, and that sometime either in 2014 or 2015 IBM will
move employees and retirees as much as possible to the health exchanges.
> >
> > My guess is that the majority of IBM employees still on the old plan expect
these to happen... and our focus now is how prepare as best as possible for when
those items occur.
> >
> > #73917 From: "teamb562"
> > Date: Fri Oct 26, 2012 11:13 am
> >
> > Was there any speculation whether we will be able to use FHA funds to pay
for the health care exchanges?
> >
> > #73921 From: "Q"
> > Date: Sun Oct 28, 2012 4:32 pm
> >
> > We felt that, if we were allowed to use FHA funds for the exchanges, there
would be some kind of "catch" to it. It which case the best one could hope for
is to use the FHA for the approved "private" insurance (which will last even
shorter than it does now) before moving to the exchange.
> >
> > Again, no special insight or knowledge - just a group of us discussing and
sharing ideas and how to best prepare, based on future likelihoods.
> >
> > #73922 From: justa_bean_counter
> > Date: Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:28 pm
> >
> > Please, no more speculative posting on health care options of the future.
> >
> > Kathi
> >
>

---

From: Mel Zimowski
To: "ibmpensionissues@..."
Cc: "ibmpensionissues@..." Sent: Sunday, November 4, 2012 2:27 PM
Subject: Re: [ibmpensionissues] Re: U.S. companies take aim at pension risk with lump-sum offers

?

If my last append gives the impression that life has got me down, then I need to be more careful about the way I express myself. ?For me, retirement is great! ?I have friends and interests that keep me constantly on the go, my health is good and certainly above average for my age, and I have more than enough money to meet my expenses and maintain my comfortable but modest lifestyle. ?The only real issue that I have is that I believe this country is headed in the wrong direction and that things will get much worse if Obama is re-elected. ?Without any need to worry about being re- ?elected again, I believe Obama will move very much to the left to implement his own socialist agenda and not solve any of the real problems this country is facing. ?Obama, fool me once, shame on you. ?Fool me twice, shame on me.

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 4, 2012, at 10:13 AM, Just Puttin' <JustPutt2@...> wrote:

?

Aren't you sorry that you woke up this morning.

You seem to be saying that each day brings you less than the previous one.

?

---

From: "zimowski@..." <zimowski@...>
To: ibmpensionissues@...
Sent: Sunday, November 4, 2012 12:11 PM
Subject: [ibmpensionissues] Re: U.S. companies take aim at pension risk with lump-sum offers

?

Given the age and dwindling numbers of those still receiving IBM retiree health care coverage, I don't really believe that IBM has much to gain by terminating their coverage. In just a few short years, most will be covered by medicare. In fact, my belief is that IBM is more likely to drop retiree health care coverage in 2013 because of PPACA. Further, if PPACA were repealed, ever indication is that it would be replaced with a program that turns over healthcare to individual states. As a Californian, I favor this approach for many reasons including the fact that the average Californian is typically in better health than someone of similar age in many other states. As stated previously, I've looked at PPACA and find that it has limited value to me. Have you looked at the covered preventative care list? Not very interesting given that hardly anything is covered. I'd prefer a program that is tailored more to the needs of those living in my state.

As far as 3Q revenue goes, very few large international corporations beat on the top line. In fact, very few of any size beat on the top line. A sign of the times - Europe still a mess, slowing of growth in China, a struggling recovery in the U.S. IBM will do just fine as the world recovers from this recession.

--- In ibmpensionissues@..., "teamb562" <teamb562@...> wrote:

You are hoping PPACA gets repealed? You do realize companies are under NO
obligation to provide healthcare to anyone, with or without PPACA. PPACA may be
your only choice someday and you hope it gets repealed? Really? And replace it
with what, Massachusetts Romneycare? Did you notice ibm's 3Q revenue sucked.
Gee, any speculation as to what that may/could mean for pensions, healthcare?

--- In ibmpensionissues@..., "zimowski@..." wrote:
>
> As a retiree, I am lucky enough to have IBM health care coverage and, although
our benefits seem to shrink a bit more every year, having IBM coverage is much
better than having no coverage. Given Obamacare, IBM may very well decide to
stop offering coverage to retirees. I've studied Obamacare and have found that
it offers me few benefits, so I'm hoping that it will be repealed in 2013,
shortly after Obama starts spending more time with his family.
>
> --- In ibmpensionissues@..., flatiron_blues wrote:
> >
> > Here is an interesting subject that was the source of some good discussion
on the ibmpension board that was prematurely cut off by a moderator. I am
posting the entire thread here and inviting responses to any or all of the
messages.
> >
> > #73901 From: chz_whiz
> > Date: Sat Oct 20, 2012 2:37 pm
> >
> > Corporate America is finally ready to deal with a monkey on its back:
massive pension obligations.
> >
> >
> >
> > sion-risk-with-lump-sum-offers/
> >
> > or
> >
> >
> >
> > Important excerpt:
> >
> > "We hope people think really carefully about the decision," said Nancy Hwa,
a spokeswoman for Pension Rights Center, a consumer organization in Washington,
> >
> > D.C. "It's very easy to be tempted by this large sum of money initially, and
it's easy to spend it on something other than retirement."
> >
> > #73902 From: willbefree25
> > Date: Sat Oct 20, 2012 4:49 pm
> >
> > >>"It's very easy to be tempted by this large sum of money initially, and
it's easy to spend it on something other than retirement."
> >
> > Duh. That's correct. Remember what a great man once said, and let it be a
warning to everyone naive enough to think about choosing the lump sum, since IBM
'wants' you to choose the lump sum:
> >
> > #73903 From: samuel bernadino
> > Date: Sat Oct 20, 2012 9:33 pm
> >
> > has any one been offered a lump sum or is this all conjecture?
> > #73905 From: justa_bean_counter
> >
> > Date: Sat Oct 20, 2012 10:39 pm
> >
> > No vested terminated participants at IBM have been offered a lump sum.
However, employees of corporations, other than IBM, stay focused to this group,
including some from companies who HAVE offered the de-risking pension buy-out.
> >
> > Kathi
> >
> > #73906 From: "donwshuper50"
> > Date: Sat Oct 20, 2012 11:56 pm
> >
> > KATHI . . . No vested terminated participants at IBM have been offered a
lump sum. . .
> >
> > maybe that should read . . . offered a lump sum YET !! ??
> >
> > Doc don
> >
> > #73907 From: willbefree25
> > Date: Sun Oct 21, 2012 11:47 am
> >
> > No VTPs at IBM have been offered a lump sum, YET, but since the original
poster asked:
> >
> > "has any one been offered a lump sum"
> >
> > emphasis on 'any one', it WAS shoved down the throats of the No Choicers in
1999 and an attempt was made (thank you Janet et al who fought it and stared
down the evil Socks Bouchard) to shove it down the throats of the Second
Choicers in 1999. No attempt was made (what a surprise!) to shove it down the
throats of those grandfathered aka the IGMs to the annuity pension (see a
warning there?)in 1999.
> >
> > I'm guessing the executives and managers and CEOs (TFL, SB, BBG?) haven't
had it shoved down their throats either.
> >
> > If you're still in doubt, see this very good article on why you shouldn't
think IBM has your best interests at heart when they 'oh so generously' offer
you VTPs a lump sum:
> >
> >
> >
> > You've been warned. If you're naive, then as a very wise IGMer here said:
> >
> > >>...Then there were the ones who were somewhat naive but as much as you
would tell them to plan for the future they said IBM will take are of them.
After the 1st massive layoff in 1993 it was apparent that the future changed and
you'd better watch your back. That was the shot heard across the bow and if
ignored then you got what you got. My compassion left and it was time to refocus
on my career and family. So goes it and I made my own decision to leave on my
terms.
> >
> > Just as simple as that. Life is Great IGM<<
> >
> > So come on, VTPs, don't 'get what you get' because you are too naive to know
IBM is evil. Regard:
> >
> > "The amount of money at stake is too good and that's all THEY (emphasis
mine)
> >
> > care about — access to that money, not American workers."
> >
> > THEY being IBM.
> >
> > You've been warned.
> >
> > #73908 From: "Steve"
> > Date: Sun Oct 21, 2012 5:07 pm
> >
> > No one in IBM-US has been offered a lump sum pension. However, employees of
other corporations have, and it's s REASONABLE conjecture that at least SOME
IBM employees and retirees will be. I believe an IBM executive is involved in a
relevant organization.
> >
> > #73910 From: fhawontcutit
> > Date: Sun Oct 21, 2012 6:05 pm
> >
> > - In ibmpension@..., samuel bernadino wrote:
> >
> > > has any one been offered a lump sum or is this all conjecture?
> >
> > From the article:
> >
> > "In a survey released earlier this year by Aon Hewitt, 35 percent of about
500 large American employers expect to offer a lump sum payout."
> >
> > Companies with lump-sum pension offers:
> >
> >
> >
> > #73911 From: "Kevin W"
> > Date: Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:06 am
> >
> > I would agree with the YET.
> >
> > I don't see any reason IBM would not pursue this path.
> >
> > Between the reduced liabilities and the ability to possibly convince
thousands of people to voluntarily leave the workforce, the savings potential is
too much for the company to pass up.
> >
> > I'm still expected the email that says, "If you are eligible for the pension
and have not yet retired, you must retire by xyz date or we will convert your
pension to the new plan or a lump sum."
> >
> > #73912 From: CHARLES LYNCH
> > Date: Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:53 am
> >
> > Hi, I was laid off in March and will start working again tomorrow for a
company in Poughkeepsie, NY. I took a class with my transition money at Dutchess
and it worked out.
> >
> > As far as the pension discussion, my wife worked for Macy's and had a
pension but we just found out it was converted to a cash balance account which
would not buy a quart of milk.....
> >
> > #73913 From: "Kevin W"
> > Date: Mon Oct 22, 2012 6:21 pm
> >
> > Cash balance offers I don't expect will be very valuable to most of us, with
the exception of folks who know they have a limited time to live and have done
the math, don't have a surviving spouse who could benefit or other relatives.
> >
> > #73914 From: "Q"
> > Date: Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:10 am
> >
> > --- In ibmpension@..., "Kevin W" wrote:
> >
> > > I'm still expected the email that says, "If you are eligible for the
pension and have not yet retired, you must retire by xyz date or we will convert
your pension to the new plan or a lump sum."
> >
> > The above statement I fully agree with. I was at an IBM conference recently
and ended up in conversation with about a dozen other IBMers, all (including me)
on the old plan and eligible to retire. Two things we all agreed on. That the
above statement will happen, and that sometime either in 2014 or 2015 IBM will
move employees and retirees as much as possible to the health exchanges.
> >
> > My guess is that the majority of IBM employees still on the old plan expect
these to happen... and our focus now is how prepare as best as possible for when
those items occur.
> >
> > #73917 From: "teamb562"
> > Date: Fri Oct 26, 2012 11:13 am
> >
> > Was there any speculation whether we will be able to use FHA funds to pay
for the health care exchanges?
> >
> > #73921 From: "Q"
> > Date: Sun Oct 28, 2012 4:32 pm
> >
> > We felt that, if we were allowed to use FHA funds for the exchanges, there
would be some kind of "catch" to it. It which case the best one could hope for
is to use the FHA for the approved "private" insurance (which will last even
shorter than it does now) before moving to the exchange.
> >
> > Again, no special insight or knowledge - just a group of us discussing and
sharing ideas and how to best prepare, based on future likelihoods.
> >
> > #73922 From: justa_bean_counter
> > Date: Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:28 pm
> >
> > Please, no more speculative posting on health care options of the future.
> >
> > Kathi
> >
>

---

From: teamb562
To: ibmpensionissues@...
Sent: Sunday, November 4, 2012 10:17 AM
Subject: [ibmpensionissues] Re: U.S. companies take aim at pension risk with lump-sum offers

?

You are hoping PPACA gets repealed? You do realize companies are under NO obligation to provide healthcare to anyone, with or without PPACA. PPACA may be your only choice someday and you hope it gets repealed? Really? And replace it with what, Massachusetts Romneycare? Did you notice ibm's 3Q revenue sucked. Gee, any speculation as to what that may/could mean for pensions, healthcare?

--- In ibmpensionissues@..., "zimowski@..." wrote:
>
> As a retiree, I am lucky enough to have IBM health care coverage and, although our benefits seem to shrink a bit more every year, having IBM coverage is much better than having no coverage. Given Obamacare, IBM may very well decide to stop offering coverage to retirees. I've studied Obamacare and have found that it offers me few benefits, so I'm hoping that it will be repealed in 2013, shortly after Obama starts spending more time with his family.
>
> --- In ibmpensionissues@..., flatiron_blues wrote:
> >
> > Here is an interesting subject that was the source of some good discussion on the ibmpension board that was prematurely cut off by a moderator. I am posting the entire thread here and inviting responses to any or all of the messages.
> >
> > #73901 From: chz_whiz
> > Date: Sat Oct 20, 2012 2:37 pm
> >
> > Corporate America is finally ready to deal with a monkey on its back: massive pension obligations.
> >
> > > >
> > sion-risk-with-lump-sum-offers/
> >
> > or
> >
> >
> >
> > Important excerpt:
> >
> > "We hope people think really carefully about the decision," said Nancy Hwa, a spokeswoman for Pension Rights Center, a consumer organization in Washington,
> >
> > D.C. "It's very easy to be tempted by this large sum of money initially, and it's easy to spend it on something other than retirement."
> >
> > #73902 From: willbefree25
> > Date: Sat Oct 20, 2012 4:49 pm
> >
> > >>"It's very easy to be tempted by this large sum of money initially, and it's easy to spend it on something other than retirement."
> >
> > Duh. That's correct. Remember what a great man once said, and let it be a warning to everyone naive enough to think about choosing the lump sum, since IBM 'wants' you to choose the lump sum:
> >
> > #73903 From: samuel bernadino > > Date: Sat Oct 20, 2012 9:33 pm
> >
> > has any one been offered a lump sum or is this all conjecture?
> > #73905 From: justa_bean_counter
> >
> > Date: Sat Oct 20, 2012 10:39 pm
> >
> > No vested terminated participants at IBM have been offered a lump sum. However, employees of corporations, other than IBM, stay focused to this group, including some from companies who HAVE offered the de-risking pension buy-out.
> >
> > Kathi
> >
> > #73906 From: "donwshuper50"
> > Date: Sat Oct 20, 2012 11:56 pm
> >
> > KATHI . . . No vested terminated participants at IBM have been offered a lump sum. . .
> >
> > maybe that should read . . . offered a lump sum YET !! ??
> >
> > Doc don
> >
> > #73907 From: willbefree25
> > Date: Sun Oct 21, 2012 11:47 am
> >
> > No VTPs at IBM have been offered a lump sum, YET, but since the original poster asked:
> >
> > "has any one been offered a lump sum"
> >
> > emphasis on 'any one', it WAS shoved down the throats of the No Choicers in 1999 and an attempt was made (thank you Janet et al who fought it and stared down the evil Socks Bouchard) to shove it down the throats of the Second Choicers in 1999. No attempt was made (what a surprise!) to shove it down the throats of those grandfathered aka the IGMs to the annuity pension (see a warning there?)in 1999.
> >
> > I'm guessing the executives and managers and CEOs (TFL, SB, BBG?) haven't had it shoved down their throats either.
> >
> > If you're still in doubt, see this very good article on why you shouldn't think IBM has your best interests at heart when they 'oh so generously' offer you VTPs a lump sum:
> >
> >
> >
> > You've been warned. If you're naive, then as a very wise IGMer here said:
> >
> > >>...Then there were the ones who were somewhat naive but as much as you would tell them to plan for the future they said IBM will take are of them. After the 1st massive layoff in 1993 it was apparent that the future changed and you'd better watch your back. That was the shot heard across the bow and if ignored then you got what you got. My compassion left and it was time to refocus on my career and family. So goes it and I made my own decision to leave on my terms.
> >
> > Just as simple as that. Life is Great IGM<<
> >
> > So come on, VTPs, don't 'get what you get' because you are too naive to know IBM is evil. Regard:
> >
> > "The amount of money at stake is too good and that's all THEY (emphasis mine)
> >
> > care about — access to that money, not American workers."
> >
> > THEY being IBM.
> >
> > You've been warned.
> >
> > #73908 From: "Steve"
> > Date: Sun Oct 21, 2012 5:07 pm
> >
> > No one in IBM-US has been offered a lump sum pension. However, employees of other corporations have, and it's s REASONABLE conjecture that at least SOME IBM employees and retirees will be. I believe an IBM executive is involved in a relevant organization.
> >
> > #73910 From: fhawontcutit
> > Date: Sun Oct 21, 2012 6:05 pm
> >
> > - In ibmpension@..., samuel bernadino wrote:
> >
> > > has any one been offered a lump sum or is this all conjecture?
> >
> > From the article:
> >
> > "In a survey released earlier this year by Aon Hewitt, 35 percent of about 500 large American employers expect to offer a lump sum payout."
> >
> > Companies with lump-sum pension offers:
> >
> >
> >
> > #73911 From: "Kevin W"
> > Date: Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:06 am
> >
> > I would agree with the YET.
> >
> > I don't see any reason IBM would not pursue this path.
> >
> > Between the reduced liabilities and the ability to possibly convince thousands of people to voluntarily leave the workforce, the savings potential is too much for the company to pass up.
> >
> > I'm still expected the email that says, "If you are eligible for the pension and have not yet retired, you must retire by xyz date or we will convert your pension to the new plan or a lump sum."
> >
> > #73912 From: CHARLES LYNCH
> > Date: Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:53 am
> >
> > Hi, I was laid off in March and will start working again tomorrow for a company in Poughkeepsie, NY. I took a class with my transition money at Dutchess and it worked out.
> >
> > As far as the pension discussion, my wife worked for Macy's and had a pension but we just found out it was converted to a cash balance account which would not buy a quart of milk.....
> >
> > #73913 From: "Kevin W"
> > Date: Mon Oct 22, 2012 6:21 pm
> >
> > Cash balance offers I don't expect will be very valuable to most of us, with the exception of folks who know they have a limited time to live and have done the math, don't have a surviving spouse who could benefit or other relatives.
> >
> > #73914 From: "Q"
> > Date: Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:10 am
> >
> > --- In ibmpension@..., "Kevin W" wrote:
> >
> > > I'm still expected the email that says, "If you are eligible for the pension and have not yet retired, you must retire by xyz date or we will convert your pension to the new plan or a lump sum."
> >
> > The above statement I fully agree with. I was at an IBM conference recently and ended up in conversation with about a dozen other IBMers, all (including me) on the old plan and eligible to retire. Two things we all agreed on. That the above statement will happen, and that sometime either in 2014 or 2015 IBM will move employees and retirees as much as possible to the health exchanges.
> >
> > My guess is that the majority of IBM employees still on the old plan expect these to happen... and our focus now is how prepare as best as possible for when those items occur.
> >
> > #73917 From: "teamb562"
> > Date: Fri Oct 26, 2012 11:13 am
> >
> > Was there any speculation whether we will be able to use FHA funds to pay for the health care exchanges?
> >
> > #73921 From: "Q"
> > Date: Sun Oct 28, 2012 4:32 pm
> >
> > We felt that, if we were allowed to use FHA funds for the exchanges, there would be some kind of "catch" to it. It which case the best one could hope for is to use the FHA for the approved "private" insurance (which will last even shorter than it does now) before moving to the exchange.
> >
> > Again, no special insight or knowledge - just a group of us discussing and sharing ideas and how to best prepare, based on future likelihoods.
> >
> > #73922 From: justa_bean_counter
> > Date: Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:28 pm
> >
> > Please, no more speculative posting on health care options of the future.
> >
> > Kathi
> >
>

---

From: edward_berkline
To: ibmpensionissues@...
Sent: Sunday, November 4, 2012 11:00 PM
Subject: [ibmpensionissues] Re: U.S. companies take aim at pension risk with lump-sum offers

?

> What a bunch of fantasy conjecturing! ? Current earnings have
> almost little or NO impact on a company's Pension funding or
> healthcare benefits.

Although current earnings don't affect the pension fund, ALL healthcare benefits, both for current employees and retirees are paid from income as an operating expense. As revenue goes down, it becomes harder to pay for those medical benefits. IBM has plenty of cash on hand, but the executives could be very tempted to cut medical benefits as a way to boost profits and enhance their bonuses.

I'm not saying that I think they will do that, but the pressure will be there. Earnings reports from the last 5 years or more show that almost all of IBM's profit growth has come from cutting expenses.

--- In ibmpensionissues@..., Just Puttin' wrote:
>
> What a bunch of fantasy conjecturing! ?? Current earnings have almost little or NO impact on a company's Pension funding or healthcare benefits.
>
> What if the sky falls tomorrow, before noon?

Edward,
I don't know about your history with IBM, mine was 33 years, I will tell you this, the IBM Corporation is NOT about to do as YOU state,,,??'IBM has plenty of cash on hand, but the executives could be very tempted to cut medical benefits as a way to boost profits and enhance their bonuses.'??
To EVEN conjecture such an idea is borderline slanderous, IMHO
What documentation do you have that would support that premise?

Edward,
I don't know about your history with IBM, mine was 33 years, I will tell you this, the IBM Corporation is NOT about to do as YOU state,,,??'IBM has plenty of cash on hand, but the executives could be very tempted to cut medical benefits as a way to boost profits and enhance their bonuses.'??
To EVEN conjecture such an idea is borderline slanderous, IMHO
What documentation do you have that would support that premise?
??

________________________________
From: edward_berkline <no_reply@...>
To: ibmpensionissues@...
Sent: Sunday, November 4, 2012 11:00 PM
Subject: [ibmpensionissues] Re: U.S. companies take aim at pension risk with lump-sum offers


??

What a bunch of fantasy conjecturing! ?? Current earnings have
almost little or NO impact on a company's Pension funding or
healthcare benefits.

Although current earnings don't affect the pension fund, ALL healthcare benefits, both for current employees and retirees are paid from income as an operating expense. As revenue goes down, it becomes harder to pay for those medical benefits. IBM has plenty of cash on hand, but the executives could be very tempted to cut medical benefits as a way to boost profits and enhance their bonuses.

I'm not saying that I think they will do that, but the pressure will be there. Earnings reports from the last 5 years or more show that almost all of IBM's profit growth has come from cutting expenses.

--- In ibmpensionissues@..., Just Puttin' <JustPutt2@> wrote:

What a bunch of fantasy conjecturing! ???? Current earnings have almost little or NO impact on a company's Pension funding or healthcare benefits.

What if the sky falls tomorrow, before noon?

Have you not been paying attention over the last 20+ years?

In 1991, IBM changed the old Service and Earning pension formula, reducing the percentage used in the calculation from 1.5% to 1.35%. A 10% cut.

Also in 1991, IBM placed a cap on the amount they would pay for retiree medical benefits. Although the cap wasn't reached until around 2000, this meant that those who retired before 1992 with the promise of fully paid lifetime medical insurance would now have to pay for it. A broken promise to those already retired.

In 1995, IBM again modified the pension formula, reducing the typical pension from 40% of final average salary to 30% for someone with 30 years of service. A 25% cut.

In 1999, IBM forced the majority of employees into the Cash Balance plan. This reduced a typical pension annuity to less than 20% of final average salary. Another 30% cut on top of the prior 25% and 10% cuts.

They also forced the vast majority of employees into the Future Health Account for retirement medical insurance. For retirees under the FHA plan, it means that they may have to pay $100k or even $200k out of their own pocket for IBM medical insurance during their lifetime.

In 2004, IBM excluded all new hires from participating in the pension plan, and excluded them from receiving any IBM contribution to the FHA plan. They have to pay 100% of all retiree medical insurance. Add another $50k to the numbers above for those folks.

In 2007, IBM froze the pension plan and ended future accrual of pension benefits.

ALL (I repeat: ***ALL***) of these things were done to cut expenses to IBM. This resulted directly in increased profits, and by way of the executive bonus formulas which are tied to earnings per share, increased the bonuses that the executives received.

If you read the fine print in your IBM benefits documentation, you will see that darn phrase that says IBM reserves the right to change benefits at any time in the future.

Although your pension in protected by federal law, your medical benefits have no protection at all. IBM has screwed the retirees in the past. That's documented fact. They could do it again at any time. I haven't claimed that they definitely will do this. But they certainly could. And history says they will not hesitate when it comes to improving the bottom line.

IBM has been improving its profitability almost exclusively by cutting costs for the last 20 years. At some point, you run out of things that can be cut. It seems to me that retiree benefits must be getting close to the top of the list.


--- In ibmpensionissues@..., Just Puttin' <JustPutt2@> wrote:

Edward,
I don't know about your history with IBM, mine was 33 years, I will tell you this, the IBM Corporation is NOT about to do as YOU state,,,??'IBM has plenty of cash on hand, but the executives could be very tempted to cut medical benefits as a way to boost profits and enhance their bonuses.'??
To EVEN conjecture such an idea is borderline slanderous, IMHO
What documentation do you have that would support that premise?
??

________________________________
From: edward_berkline <no_reply@...>
To: ibmpensionissues@...
Sent: Sunday, November 4, 2012 11:00 PM
Subject: [ibmpensionissues] Re: U.S. companies take aim at pension risk with lump-sum offers


??

What a bunch of fantasy conjecturing! ?? Current earnings have
almost little or NO impact on a company's Pension funding or
healthcare benefits.

Although current earnings don't affect the pension fund, ALL healthcare benefits, both for current employees and retirees are paid from income as an operating expense. As revenue goes down, it becomes harder to pay for those medical benefits. IBM has plenty of cash on hand, but the executives could be very tempted to cut medical benefits as a way to boost profits and enhance their bonuses.

I'm not saying that I think they will do that, but the pressure will be there. Earnings reports from the last 5 years or more show that almost all of IBM's profit growth has come from cutting expenses.

--- In ibmpensionissues@..., Just Puttin' <JustPutt2@> wrote:

What a bunch of fantasy conjecturing! ???? Current earnings have almost little or NO impact on a company's Pension funding or healthcare benefits.

What if the sky falls tomorrow, before noon?

A big thank you Ed for the many details of ibms recent past history for employee uses of KY. To even conjecture that ibm would not ax retiree health care is borderline asinine.


--- In ibmpensionissues@..., edward_berkline <no_reply@> wrote:

Have you not been paying attention over the last 20+ years?

In 1991, IBM changed the old Service and Earning pension formula, reducing the percentage used in the calculation from 1.5% to 1.35%. A 10% cut.

Also in 1991, IBM placed a cap on the amount they would pay for retiree medical benefits. Although the cap wasn't reached until around 2000, this meant that those who retired before 1992 with the promise of fully paid lifetime medical insurance would now have to pay for it. A broken promise to those already retired.

In 1995, IBM again modified the pension formula, reducing the typical pension from 40% of final average salary to 30% for someone with 30 years of service. A 25% cut.

In 1999, IBM forced the majority of employees into the Cash Balance plan. This reduced a typical pension annuity to less than 20% of final average salary. Another 30% cut on top of the prior 25% and 10% cuts.

They also forced the vast majority of employees into the Future Health Account for retirement medical insurance. For retirees under the FHA plan, it means that they may have to pay $100k or even $200k out of their own pocket for IBM medical insurance during their lifetime.

In 2004, IBM excluded all new hires from participating in the pension plan, and excluded them from receiving any IBM contribution to the FHA plan. They have to pay 100% of all retiree medical insurance. Add another $50k to the numbers above for those folks.

In 2007, IBM froze the pension plan and ended future accrual of pension benefits.

ALL (I repeat: ***ALL***) of these things were done to cut expenses to IBM. This resulted directly in increased profits, and by way of the executive bonus formulas which are tied to earnings per share, increased the bonuses that the executives received.

If you read the fine print in your IBM benefits documentation, you will see that darn phrase that says IBM reserves the right to change benefits at any time in the future.

Although your pension in protected by federal law, your medical benefits have no protection at all. IBM has screwed the retirees in the past. That's documented fact. They could do it again at any time. I haven't claimed that they definitely will do this. But they certainly could. And history says they will not hesitate when it comes to improving the bottom line.

IBM has been improving its profitability almost exclusively by cutting costs for the last 20 years. At some point, you run out of things that can be cut. It seems to me that retiree benefits must be getting close to the top of the list.


--- In ibmpensionissues@..., Just Puttin' <JustPutt2@> wrote:

Edward,
I don't know about your history with IBM, mine was 33 years, I will tell you this, the IBM Corporation is NOT about to do as YOU state,,,??'IBM has plenty of cash on hand, but the executives could be very tempted to cut medical benefits as a way to boost profits and enhance their bonuses.'??
To EVEN conjecture such an idea is borderline slanderous, IMHO
What documentation do you have that would support that premise?
??

________________________________
From: edward_berkline <no_reply@...>
To: ibmpensionissues@...
Sent: Sunday, November 4, 2012 11:00 PM
Subject: [ibmpensionissues] Re: U.S. companies take aim at pension risk with lump-sum offers


??

What a bunch of fantasy conjecturing! ?? Current earnings have
almost little or NO impact on a company's Pension funding or
healthcare benefits.

Although current earnings don't affect the pension fund, ALL healthcare benefits, both for current employees and retirees are paid from income as an operating expense. As revenue goes down, it becomes harder to pay for those medical benefits. IBM has plenty of cash on hand, but the executives could be very tempted to cut medical benefits as a way to boost profits and enhance their bonuses.

I'm not saying that I think they will do that, but the pressure will be there. Earnings reports from the last 5 years or more show that almost all of IBM's profit growth has come from cutting expenses.

--- In ibmpensionissues@..., Just Puttin' <JustPutt2@> wrote:

What a bunch of fantasy conjecturing! ???? Current earnings have almost little or NO impact on a company's Pension funding or healthcare benefits.

What if the sky falls tomorrow, before noon?

---

From: "zimowski@..."
To: ibmpensionissues@...
Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2012 10:31 AM
Subject: [ibmpensionissues] Re: U.S. companies take aim at pension risk with lump-sum offers

?

Yes, thanks to Ed. It's amazing that more IBMers didn't understand the significance of the 1991 changes. No need. however, to refer to other members of this board as asinine. Is it your plan to become the willbefree25 of this board?

--- In ibmpensionissues@..., "teamb562" wrote:
>
> A big thank you Ed for the many details of ibms recent past history for employee uses of KY. To even conjecture that ibm would not ax retiree health care is borderline asinine.
>
>
> --- In ibmpensionissues@..., edward_berkline wrote:
> >
> > Have you not been paying attention over the last 20+ years?
> >
> > In 1991, IBM changed the old Service and Earning pension formula, reducing the percentage used in the calculation from 1.5% to 1.35%. A 10% cut.
> >
> > Also in 1991, IBM placed a cap on the amount they would pay for retiree medical benefits. Although the cap wasn't reached until around 2000, this meant that those who retired before 1992 with the promise of fully paid lifetime medical insurance would now have to pay for it. A broken promise to those already retired.
> >
> > In 1995, IBM again modified the pension formula, reducing the typical pension from 40% of final average salary to 30% for someone with 30 years of service. A 25% cut.
> >
> > In 1999, IBM forced the majority of employees into the Cash Balance plan. This reduced a typical pension annuity to less than 20% of final average salary. Another 30% cut on top of the prior 25% and 10% cuts.
> >
> > They also forced the vast majority of employees into the Future Health Account for retirement medical insurance. For retirees under the FHA plan, it means that they may have to pay $100k or even $200k out of their own pocket for IBM medical insurance during their lifetime.
> >
> > In 2004, IBM excluded all new hires from participating in the pension plan, and excluded them from receiving any IBM contribution to the FHA plan. They have to pay 100% of all retiree medical insurance. Add another $50k to the numbers above for those folks.
> >
> > In 2007, IBM froze the pension plan and ended future accrual of pension benefits.
> >
> > ALL (I repeat: ***ALL***) of these things were done to cut expenses to IBM. This resulted directly in increased profits, and by way of the executive bonus formulas which are tied to earnings per share, increased the bonuses that the executives received.
> >
> > If you read the fine print in your IBM benefits documentation, you will see that darn phrase that says IBM reserves the right to change benefits at any time in the future.
> >
> > Although your pension in protected by federal law, your medical benefits have no protection at all. IBM has screwed the retirees in the past. That's documented fact. They could do it again at any time. I haven't claimed that they definitely will do this. But they certainly could. And history says they will not hesitate when it comes to improving the bottom line.
> >
> > IBM has been improving its profitability almost exclusively by cutting costs for the last 20 years. At some point, you run out of things that can be cut. It seems to me that retiree benefits must be getting close to the top of the list.
> >
> >
> > --- In ibmpensionissues@..., Just Puttin' wrote:
> > >
> > > Edward,
> > > I don't know about your history with IBM, mine was 33 years, I will tell you this, the IBM Corporation is NOT about to do as YOU state,,,??'IBM has plenty of cash on hand, but the executives could be very tempted to cut medical benefits as a way to boost profits and enhance their bonuses.'??
> > > To EVEN conjecture such an idea is borderline slanderous, IMHO
> > > What documentation do you have that would support that premise?
> > > ??
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >________________________________
> > > > From: edward_berkline <no_reply@...>
> > > >To: ibmpensionissues@...
> > > >Sent: Sunday, November 4, 2012 11:00 PM
> > > >Subject: [ibmpensionissues] Re: U.S. companies take aim at pension risk with lump-sum offers
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >??
> > > >> What a bunch of fantasy conjecturing! ?? Current earnings have
> > > >> almost little or NO impact on a company's Pension funding or
> > > >> healthcare benefits.
> > > >
> > > >Although current earnings don't affect the pension fund, ALL healthcare benefits, both for current employees and retirees are paid from income as an operating expense. As revenue goes down, it becomes harder to pay for those medical benefits. IBM has plenty of cash on hand, but the executives could be very tempted to cut medical benefits as a way to boost profits and enhance their bonuses.
> > > >
> > > >I'm not saying that I think they will do that, but the pressure will be there. Earnings reports from the last 5 years or more show that almost all of IBM's profit growth has come from cutting expenses.
> > > >
> > > >--- In ibmpensionissues@..., Just Puttin' wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> What a bunch of fantasy conjecturing! ???? Current earnings have almost little or NO impact on a company's Pension funding or healthcare benefits.
> > > >>
> > > >> What if the sky falls tomorrow, before noon?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

well, gee thanks for the offer zim, but not if you're interested in taking the position:>)

I made reference to no one. Furthermore, I stand by my statement and will reiterate: it is asinine to think that ibm would not consider cutting retiree medical benefits.

Asinine: 1: extremely or utterly foolish <an asinine excuse>

----------------------------

--- In ibmpensionissues@..., "zimowski@" <zimowski@> wrote:

Yes, thanks to Ed. It's amazing that more IBMers didn't understand the significance of the 1991 changes. No need. however, to refer to other members of this board as asinine. Is it your plan to become the willbefree25 of this board?

--- In ibmpensionissues@..., "teamb562" <teamb562@> wrote:

A big thank you Ed for the many details of ibms recent past history for employee uses of KY. To even conjecture that ibm would not ax retiree health care is borderline asinine.


--- In ibmpensionissues@..., edward_berkline <no_reply@> wrote:

Have you not been paying attention over the last 20+ years?

In 1991, IBM changed the old Service and Earning pension formula, reducing the percentage used in the calculation from 1.5% to 1.35%. A 10% cut.

Also in 1991, IBM placed a cap on the amount they would pay for retiree medical benefits. Although the cap wasn't reached until around 2000, this meant that those who retired before 1992 with the promise of fully paid lifetime medical insurance would now have to pay for it. A broken promise to those already retired.

In 1995, IBM again modified the pension formula, reducing the typical pension from 40% of final average salary to 30% for someone with 30 years of service. A 25% cut.

In 1999, IBM forced the majority of employees into the Cash Balance plan. This reduced a typical pension annuity to less than 20% of final average salary. Another 30% cut on top of the prior 25% and 10% cuts.

They also forced the vast majority of employees into the Future Health Account for retirement medical insurance. For retirees under the FHA plan, it means that they may have to pay $100k or even $200k out of their own pocket for IBM medical insurance during their lifetime.

In 2004, IBM excluded all new hires from participating in the pension plan, and excluded them from receiving any IBM contribution to the FHA plan. They have to pay 100% of all retiree medical insurance. Add another $50k to the numbers above for those folks.

In 2007, IBM froze the pension plan and ended future accrual of pension benefits.

ALL (I repeat: ***ALL***) of these things were done to cut expenses to IBM. This resulted directly in increased profits, and by way of the executive bonus formulas which are tied to earnings per share, increased the bonuses that the executives received.

If you read the fine print in your IBM benefits documentation, you will see that darn phrase that says IBM reserves the right to change benefits at any time in the future.

Although your pension in protected by federal law, your medical benefits have no protection at all. IBM has screwed the retirees in the past. That's documented fact. They could do it again at any time. I haven't claimed that they definitely will do this. But they certainly could. And history says they will not hesitate when it comes to improving the bottom line.

IBM has been improving its profitability almost exclusively by cutting costs for the last 20 years. At some point, you run out of things that can be cut. It seems to me that retiree benefits must be getting close to the top of the list.


--- In ibmpensionissues@..., Just Puttin' <JustPutt2@> wrote:

Edward,
I don't know about your history with IBM, mine was 33 years, I will tell you this, the IBM Corporation is NOT about to do as YOU state,,,??'IBM has plenty of cash on hand, but the executives could be very tempted to cut medical benefits as a way to boost profits and enhance their bonuses.'??
To EVEN conjecture such an idea is borderline slanderous, IMHO
What documentation do you have that would support that premise?
??

________________________________
From: edward_berkline <no_reply@...>
To: ibmpensionissues@...
Sent: Sunday, November 4, 2012 11:00 PM
Subject: [ibmpensionissues] Re: U.S. companies take aim at pension risk with lump-sum offers


??

What a bunch of fantasy conjecturing! ?? Current earnings have
almost little or NO impact on a company's Pension funding or
healthcare benefits.

Although current earnings don't affect the pension fund, ALL healthcare benefits, both for current employees and retirees are paid from income as an operating expense. As revenue goes down, it becomes harder to pay for those medical benefits. IBM has plenty of cash on hand, but the executives could be very tempted to cut medical benefits as a way to boost profits and enhance their bonuses.

I'm not saying that I think they will do that, but the pressure will be there. Earnings reports from the last 5 years or more show that almost all of IBM's profit growth has come from cutting expenses.

--- In ibmpensionissues@..., Just Puttin' <JustPutt2@> wrote:

What a bunch of fantasy conjecturing! ???? Current earnings have almost little or NO impact on a company's Pension funding or healthcare benefits.

What if the sky falls tomorrow, before noon?