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Ask yourself what caused the Euro Crisis.? Is it giving too much social benefits and not being able to collect sufficient tax revenue to pay for it.? When France raised its personal income tax rate to 75%, it reduced the retirement age from 60 to 58 so citizens could start to collect government social security pension at 58. Are you telling me that there is no corruption in our medicare and medicaid system?? I thought when President Obama signed the bill he said we would save a 1/2 billion dollars a year by eliminating fraud in the system. When the law required children to be covered on parent's health insurance until the age 26, what happen?? Insurance companies raise premiums on everyone to cover this additional risk. Is this fair to those who are unmarried or do not have children?Also, please remember what you pay for you get.? PLEASE when going aboard visit a hospital and see if you want to be treated in the hospital where there is country's safety net. From four to ten patients are in a room. It sounds great but there are visible differences. It is great for those coming from a country that had no medical treatments but I think you would be disappointed.? Don't assume services are the same. Don't trust statistics.The problem we have in New York City and Westchester is finding Doctors who will accept any insurance.? It does not matter if you have insurance or not, the Doctor requires an upfront payment on your credit card and gives you whatever he collects from the insurance company.? There are not enough doctors to treat everyone. We have increased the number of people under health insurance but have not increased the number of doctors. With? the government as well as insurance companies keep reducing payments to doctors, more and more doctors are requiring the upfront payment before treatment. So even if you have a single payer insurance, it does not mean a doctor will accept your insurance.Two hospitals in my area closed since most of their patients were under Medicare or Medicaid Insurance and they could not cover their expenses and had to declare bankruptcy. So please remember some one has to pay - either you raise premiums, use tax revenue, reduce coverage or pay the doctors and hospitals less. What you pay for is what you get and not all services are equal. Also just because you have insurance does not mean, you will find someone, other than at a hospital, to treat you.? My uncle who is on medicaid was told by his doctor of 20 years he no longer treats medicare or medicaid patients. It is a problem and the issues are complex. When my daughter gave birth. the hospital accepted her company's insurance but the doctors required the upfront payment and reimbursed her on the money they collected from the insurance company. You cannot force a doctor to do a service at a fixed price, otherwise we have slavery.Finally as to taxes on stocks, is it fair if you lose money in the stock market in a year like $20,000, you can only deduct $3,000 on your income tax return per year.? But if you make money the entire gain is immediately taxed.? Regards from a person who hopes to see improvement in healthcare but will only believe it when it happens. Obama-Care is a start but there needs to be improvements and changes to make it happen and acceptable to majority of the US----- Original Message -----From: pvsutera Date: Saturday, June 22, 2013 12:51 pmSubject: [ibmpensionissues] Re: Future Health AccountTo: ibmpensionissues@...> I think you have to realize there is the Euro crisis and then > there is healthcare. Greece has had a long-term problem with > tax-evasion and corruption. We are 50th on the list of > longevity with our most expensive system in the world. Right > next to Albania (the poorest country in Europe), and Cuba, a 3rd > world country. Most of the complaints about the cost of the > safety net come from corporations who want even higher record > profits. Shredding middle-class jobs and opting for austerity > has worked so well! We should keep listening to and heeding > everything on the corporate wishlist! As far as 48% paying no > Federal income tax: They pay FICA, they pay Medicare, Sales > tax, excise taxes, license fees, FCC fees, State taxes. And many > of them are working 2 jobs. They often pay a higher percentage > of their income as taxes than do the millionaires. But flipping > stocks should be taxed lower than say, writing code for IBM. > > --- In ibmpensionissues@..., KenSP@ wrote:> >> > Yes you are right, I also believe that companies are going to > start dropping Health Care.However, look at Greece, France and > UK that have this programs.? Someone has to pay.? Either like > Greece, one has to start cutting back on benefits and coverage > and raise taxes on those who work.? France has increased it > income tax rate to 75% and the rich are moving to Switzerland > rather than supporting these social programs. In the US, 48% of > people pay no federal income tax.? I live in France for five > years and those who had government coverage, like myself, also > bought and paid for high supplement insurance so they could go > to private hospitals.? If you go to France on vacation, visit a > French Hospital and see if you would want to go there for > treatment. If you have no choice you will. Most of the French I > worked with went to the American Hospital since their medical > equipment was up to date while the French Hospitals had older > and even out dated equipment since the government was > controlling what they could or could not buy.? UK system also > has it problem with death rates from cancer.? Just look it up > and you will see it is far greater than US since they do not > want to pay for the high cost of cancer drugs. Having been in > the UK or France, you do not have a problem in getting medical > services if you are willing to pay cash but it you tell them you > have government coverage, you get inline and may not be > satisfied.I do not have the answers and believe most of my money > in the end will be spent on medical treatment.? I don't think > relying on the government or private insurance companies who > deny you treatment or drug coverage is going to work.A concern > person who is not hopeful that there will be a solution in my > lifetime.----- Original Message -----From: don_m64015@: > Friday, June 21, 2013 10:48 pmSubject: [ibmpensionissues] Re: > Future Health AccountTo: ibmpensionissues@...> Just > wait until the ACA (Obamacare) goes into full effect > starting > next year. Employers are going to be bailing out of > Health > Care Plans in droves. Individual premiums and co-pays > are > going to start going ballistic, until they reach a point > where > the vast majority of the public demands a SP-UHC plan, > much > like other civilized nations have been using for years. > The > simple fact that we pay twice as much for health care...yet > > the Value of our plans places us barely in the top 20 > > nations...should be telling us something. The Greed and Waste > > in our present system will soon spell its doom. > > --- In > ibmpensionissues@..., Just Puttin' > wrote:> >> > > Almost daily, some one writes that changing a Health Care > > benefit is illegal,,, I am amazed at the wide spread > > misunderstanding that Health Care benefits carry the same > > characteristics as a Pension Benefit.?? > > > > To my knowledge > no business organization has Guaranteed Health > Care to > employees.?? The federal government has changed benefits > many > times.> > Health care is not and was not ever guaranteed.???? > IBM, > Apple, Microsoft, HP, Google,,,, check them out.> > > > > > > ??> > Dick> > Dance like there is no tomorrow> > > > > > > >________________________________> > > From: Koz60 > > >To: > ibmpensionissues@... > > >Sent: Wednesday, June 19, > 2013 2:02 PM> > >Subject: [ibmpensionissues] Re: Future Health > Account> > > > > >> > >> > >?? > > >I was 39 when they switched > plans.. 18yrs of service but only > 39 so I got the new plan. > Can't believe this is legal. Wouldn't > this be age > discrimination? Met company requirements to retire > but they > say not old enough to collect the medical money? > Telling me I > have to wait till I'm 55 makes sense but forfeit it > all has to > be against the law... Some law.. Anyone know if > anyone ever > challenged this in court? I would suspect IBM had > it's > attorneys lock this down but curious. I would bet that if > > this got in front of a jury they would side with the employee.. > > But guessing that will never happen. > > >> > >--- In > ibmpensionissues@..., pvsutera > wrote:> >>> > >> > This depends on whether you are on the old pension plan, > 1st > or 2nd choicers could retire with 30 years and get their FHA > > when they turned 55. Now with Cash-balance folks, born after > > June 1959, they need to be 55 and 15 years service to claim > > their FHA money. I believe if they are 54 and 14 years service, > > they might be able to get a bridge to FHA eligibility, but > maybe > not since with 30 years they are retirement eligible > already. > This is why it is called the Future Hell Account. > > > >> > > >> --- In ibmpensionissues@..., Bob Nelson > > wrote:> > >> >> > >> > I retired with over 30 years but was > not 55 and did not > lose my FHA account.> > >> >> > >>> > >> > > >> > > > > >> > >> >> > >> >> > >

Ask yourself what caused the Euro Crisis.? Is it giving too much social benefits and not being able to collect sufficient tax revenue to pay for it.? When France raised its personal income tax rate to 75%, it reduced the retirement age from 60 to 58 so citizens could start to collect government social security pension at 58. Are you telling me that there is no corruption in our medicare and medicaid system?? I thought when President Obama signed the bill he said we would save a 1/2 billion dollars a year by eliminating fraud in the system. When the law required children to be covered on parent's health insurance until the age 26, what happen?? Insurance companies raise premiums on everyone to cover this additional risk. Is this fair to those who are unmarried or do not have children?Also, please remember what you pay for you get.? PLEASE when going aboard visit a hospital and see if you want to be treated in the hospital where there is country's safety net. From four to ten patients are in a room. It sounds great but there are visible differences. It is great for those coming from a country that had no medical treatments but I think you would be disappointed.? Don't assume services are the same. Don't trust statistics.The problem we have in New York City and Westchester is finding Doctors who will accept any insurance.? It does not matter if you have insurance or not, the Doctor requires an upfront payment on your credit card and gives you whatever he collects from the insurance company.? There are not enough doctors to treat everyone. We have increased the number of people under health insurance but have not increased the number of doctors. With? the government as well as insurance companies keep reducing payments to doctors, more and more doctors are requiring the upfront payment before treatment. So even if you have a single payer insurance, it does not mean a doctor will accept your insurance.Two hospitals in my area closed since most of their patients were under Medicare or Medicaid Insurance and they could not cover their expenses and had to declare bankruptcy. So please remember some one has to pay - either you raise premiums, use tax revenue, reduce coverage or pay the doctors and hospitals less. What you pay for is what you get and not all services are equal. Also just because you have insurance does not mean, you will find someone, other than at a hospital, to treat you.? My uncle who is on medicaid was told by his doctor of 20 years he no longer treats medicare or medicaid patients. It is a problem and the issues are complex. When my daughter gave birth. the hospital accepted her company's insurance but the doctors required the upfront payment and reimbursed her on the money they collected from the insurance company. You cannot force a doctor to do a service at a fixed price, otherwise we have slavery.Finally as to taxes on stocks, is it fair if you lose money in the stock market in a year like $20,000, you can only deduct $3,000 on your income tax return per year.? But if you make money the entire gain is immediately taxed.? Regards from a person who hopes to see improvement in healthcare but will only believe it when it happens. Obama-Care is a start but there needs to be improvements and changes to make it happen and acceptable to majority of the US----- Original Message -----From: pvsutera Date: Saturday, June 22, 2013 12:51 pmSubject: [ibmpensionissues] Re: Future Health AccountTo: ibmpensionissues@...> I think you have to realize there is the Euro crisis and then > there is healthcare. Greece has had a long-term problem with > tax-evasion and corruption. We are 50th on the list of > longevity with our most expensive system in the world. Right > next to Albania (the poorest country in Europe), and Cuba, a 3rd > world country. Most of the complaints about the cost of the > safety net come from corporations who want even higher record > profits. Shredding middle-class jobs and opting for austerity > has worked so well! We should keep listening to and heeding > everything on the corporate wishlist! As far as 48% paying no > Federal income tax: They pay FICA, they pay Medicare, Sales > tax, excise taxes, license fees, FCC fees, State taxes. And many > of them are working 2 jobs. They often pay a higher percentage > of their income as taxes than do the millionaires. But flipping > stocks should be taxed lower than say, writing code for IBM. > > --- In ibmpensionissues@..., KenSP@... wrote:> >> > Yes you are right, I also believe that companies are going to > start dropping Health Care.However, look at Greece, France and > UK that have this programs.? Someone has to pay.? Either like > Greece, one has to start cutting back on benefits and coverage > and raise taxes on those who work.? France has increased it > income tax rate to 75% and the rich are moving to Switzerland > rather than supporting these social programs. In the US, 48% of > people pay no federal income tax.? I live in France for five > years and those who had government coverage, like myself, also > bought and paid for high supplement insurance so they could go > to private hospitals.? If you go to France on vacation, visit a > French Hospital and see if you would want to go there for > treatment. If you have no choice you will. Most of the French I > worked with went to the American Hospital since their medical > equipment was up to date while the French Hospitals had older > and even out dated equipment since the government was > controlling what they could or could not buy.? UK system also > has it problem with death rates from cancer.? Just look it up > and you will see it is far greater than US since they do not > want to pay for the high cost of cancer drugs. Having been in > the UK or France, you do not have a problem in getting medical > services if you are willing to pay cash but it you tell them you > have government coverage, you get inline and may not be > satisfied.I do not have the answers and believe most of my money > in the end will be spent on medical treatment.? I don't think > relying on the government or private insurance companies who > deny you treatment or drug coverage is going to work.A concern > person who is not hopeful that there will be a solution in my > lifetime.----- Original Message -----From: don_m64015@...: > Friday, June 21, 2013 10:48 pmSubject: [ibmpensionissues] Re: > Future Health AccountTo: ibmpensionissues@...> Just > wait until the ACA (Obamacare) goes into full effect > starting > next year. Employers are going to be bailing out of > Health > Care Plans in droves. Individual premiums and co-pays > are > going to start going ballistic, until they reach a point > where > the vast majority of the public demands a SP-UHC plan, > much > like other civilized nations have been using for years. > The > simple fact that we pay twice as much for health care...yet > > the Value of our plans places us barely in the top 20 > > nations...should be telling us something. The Greed and Waste > > in our present system will soon spell its doom. > > --- In > ibmpensionissues@..., Just Puttin' > wrote:> >> > > Almost daily, some one writes that changing a Health Care > > benefit is illegal,,, I am amazed at the wide spread > > misunderstanding that Health Care benefits carry the same > > characteristics as a Pension Benefit.?? > > > > To my knowledge > no business organization has Guaranteed Health > Care to > employees.?? The federal government has changed benefits > many > times.> > Health care is not and was not ever guaranteed.???? > IBM, > Apple, Microsoft, HP, Google,,,, check them out.> > > > > > > ??> > Dick> > Dance like there is no tomorrow> > > > > > > >________________________________> > > From: Koz60 > > >To: > ibmpensionissues@... > > >Sent: Wednesday, June 19, > 2013 2:02 PM> > >Subject: [ibmpensionissues] Re: Future Health > Account> > > > > >> > >> > >?? > > >I was 39 when they switched > plans.. 18yrs of service but only > 39 so I got the new plan. > Can't believe this is legal. Wouldn't > this be age > discrimination? Met company requirements to retire > but they > say not old enough to collect the medical money? > Telling me I > have to wait till I'm 55 makes sense but forfeit it > all has to > be against the law... Some law.. Anyone know if > anyone ever > challenged this in court? I would suspect IBM had > it's > attorneys lock this down but curious. I would bet that if > > this got in front of a jury they would side with the employee.. > > But guessing that will never happen. > > >> > >--- In > ibmpensionissues@..., pvsutera > wrote:> >>> > >> > This depends on whether you are on the old pension plan, > 1st > or 2nd choicers could retire with 30 years and get their FHA > > when they turned 55. Now with Cash-balance folks, born after > > June 1959, they need to be 55 and 15 years service to claim > > their FHA money. I believe if they are 54 and 14 years service, > > they might be able to get a bridge to FHA eligibility, but > maybe > not since with 30 years they are retirement eligible > already. > This is why it is called the Future Hell Account. > > > >> > > >> --- In ibmpensionissues@..., Bob Nelson > > wrote:> > >> >> > >> > I retired with over 30 years but was > not 55 and did not > lose my FHA account.> > >> >> > >>> > >> > > >> > > > > >> > >> >> > >> >> > >

Yes you are right, I also believe that companies are going to start dropping Health Care.However, look at Greece, France and UK that have this programs.? Someone has to pay.? Either like Greece, one has to start cutting back on benefits and coverage and raise taxes on those who work.? France has increased it income tax rate to 75% and the rich are moving to Switzerland rather than supporting these social programs. In the US, 48% of people pay no federal income tax.? I live in France for five years and those who had government coverage, like myself, also bought and paid for high supplement insurance so they could go to private hospitals.? If you go to France on vacation, visit a French Hospital and see if you would want to go there for treatment. If you have no choice you will. Most of the French I worked with went to the American Hospital since their medical equipment was up to date while the French Hospitals had older and even out dated equipment since the government was controlling what they could or could not buy.? UK system also has it problem with death rates from cancer.? Just look it up and you will see it is far greater than US since they do not want to pay for the high cost of cancer drugs. Having been in the UK or France, you do not have a problem in getting medical services if you are willing to pay cash but it you tell them you have government coverage, you get inline and may not be satisfied.I do not have the answers and believe most of my money in the end will be spent on medical treatment.? I don't think relying on the government or private insurance companies who deny you treatment or drug coverage is going to work.A concern person who is not hopeful that there will be a solution in my lifetime.----- Original Message -----From: don_m64015@...: Friday, June 21, 2013 10:48 pmSubject: [ibmpensionissues] Re: Future Health AccountTo: ibmpensionissues@...> Just wait until the ACA (Obamacare) goes into full effect > starting next year. Employers are going to be bailing out of > Health Care Plans in droves. Individual premiums and co-pays > are going to start going ballistic, until they reach a point > where the vast majority of the public demands a SP-UHC plan, > much like other civilized nations have been using for years. > The simple fact that we pay twice as much for health care...yet > the Value of our plans places us barely in the top 20 > nations...should be telling us something. The Greed and Waste > in our present system will soon spell its doom. > > --- In ibmpensionissues@..., Just Puttin' > wrote:> >> > Almost daily, some one writes that changing a Health Care > benefit is illegal,,, I am amazed at the wide spread > misunderstanding that Health Care benefits carry the same > characteristics as a Pension Benefit.?? > > > > To my knowledge no business organization has Guaranteed Health > Care to employees.?? The federal government has changed benefits > many times.> > Health care is not and was not ever guaranteed.???? IBM, > Apple, Microsoft, HP, Google,,,, check them out.> > > > > > ??> > Dick> > Dance like there is no tomorrow> > > > > > >________________________________> > > From: Koz60 > > >To: ibmpensionissues@... > > >Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2013 2:02 PM> > >Subject: [ibmpensionissues] Re: Future Health Account> > > > > >> > >> > >?? > > >I was 39 when they switched plans.. 18yrs of service but only > 39 so I got the new plan. Can't believe this is legal. Wouldn't > this be age discrimination? Met company requirements to retire > but they say not old enough to collect the medical money? > Telling me I have to wait till I'm 55 makes sense but forfeit it > all has to be against the law... Some law.. Anyone know if > anyone ever challenged this in court? I would suspect IBM had > it's attorneys lock this down but curious. I would bet that if > this got in front of a jury they would side with the employee.. > But guessing that will never happen. > > >> > >--- In ibmpensionissues@..., pvsutera > wrote:> >>> > >> This depends on whether you are on the old pension plan, > 1st or 2nd choicers could retire with 30 years and get their FHA > when they turned 55. Now with Cash-balance folks, born after > June 1959, they need to be 55 and 15 years service to claim > their FHA money. I believe if they are 54 and 14 years service, > they might be able to get a bridge to FHA eligibility, but maybe > not since with 30 years they are retirement eligible already. > This is why it is called the Future Hell Account. > > >> > > >> --- In ibmpensionissues@..., Bob Nelson > wrote:> > >> >> > >> > I retired with over 30 years but was not 55 and did not > lose my FHA account.> > >> >> > >>> > >> > >> > > > > >> > >> >> > >

Just wait until the ACA (Obamacare) goes into full effect starting next year. Employers are going to be bailing out of Health Care Plans in droves. Individual premiums and co-pays are going to start going ballistic, until they reach a point where the vast majority of the public demands a SP-UHC plan, much like other civilized nations have been using for years. The simple fact that we pay twice as much for health care...yet the Value of our plans places us barely in the top 20 nations...should be telling us something. The Greed and Waste in our present system will soon spell its doom.

--- In ibmpensionissues@..., Just Puttin' <JustPutt2@> wrote:

Almost daily, some one writes that changing a Health Care benefit is illegal,,, I am amazed at the wide spread misunderstanding that Health Care benefits carry the same characteristics as a Pension Benefit.??

To my knowledge no business organization has Guaranteed Health Care to employees.?? The federal government has changed benefits many times.
Health care is not and was not ever guaranteed.???? IBM, Apple, Microsoft, HP, Google,,,, check them out.


??
Dick
Dance like there is no tomorrow

________________________________
From: Koz60 <stevek_99sub@>
To: ibmpensionissues@...
Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2013 2:02 PM
Subject: [ibmpensionissues] Re: Future Health Account



??
I was 39 when they switched plans.. 18yrs of service but only 39 so I got the new plan. Can't believe this is legal. Wouldn't this be age discrimination? Met company requirements to retire but they say not old enough to collect the medical money? Telling me I have to wait till I'm 55 makes sense but forfeit it all has to be against the law... Some law.. Anyone know if anyone ever challenged this in court? I would suspect IBM had it's attorneys lock this down but curious. I would bet that if this got in front of a jury they would side with the employee.. But guessing that will never happen.

--- In ibmpensionissues@..., pvsutera <no_reply@> wrote:

This depends on whether you are on the old pension plan, 1st or 2nd choicers could retire with 30 years and get their FHA when they turned 55. Now with Cash-balance folks, born after June 1959, they need to be 55 and 15 years service to claim their FHA money. I believe if they are 54 and 14 years service, they might be able to get a bridge to FHA eligibility, but maybe not since with 30 years they are retirement eligible already. This is why it is called the Future Hell Account.

--- In ibmpensionissues@..., Bob Nelson <nelson_bob@> wrote:

I retired with over 30 years but was not 55 and did not lose my FHA account.

Almost daily, some one writes that changing a Health Care benefit is illegal,,, I am amazed at the wide spread misunderstanding that Health Care benefits carry the same characteristics as a Pension Benefit.??

To my knowledge no business organization has Guaranteed Health Care to employees.?? The federal government has changed benefits many times.
Health care is not and was not ever guaranteed.???? IBM, Apple, Microsoft, HP, Google,,,, check them out.


??
Dick
Dance like there is no tomorrow

________________________________
From: Koz60 <stevek_99sub@...>
To: ibmpensionissues@...
Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2013 2:02 PM
Subject: [ibmpensionissues] Re: Future Health Account



??
I was 39 when they switched plans.. 18yrs of service but only 39 so I got the new plan. Can't believe this is legal. Wouldn't this be age discrimination? Met company requirements to retire but they say not old enough to collect the medical money? Telling me I have to wait till I'm 55 makes sense but forfeit it all has to be against the law... Some law.. Anyone know if anyone ever challenged this in court? I would suspect IBM had it's attorneys lock this down but curious. I would bet that if this got in front of a jury they would side with the employee.. But guessing that will never happen.

--- In ibmpensionissues@..., pvsutera <no_reply@> wrote:

This depends on whether you are on the old pension plan, 1st or 2nd choicers could retire with 30 years and get their FHA when they turned 55. Now with Cash-balance folks, born after June 1959, they need to be 55 and 15 years service to claim their FHA money. I believe if they are 54 and 14 years service, they might be able to get a bridge to FHA eligibility, but maybe not since with 30 years they are retirement eligible already. This is why it is called the Future Hell Account.

--- In ibmpensionissues@..., Bob Nelson <nelson_bob@> wrote:

I retired with over 30 years but was not 55 and did not lose my FHA account.

The business case was IBM was making 32 million a year on mainframe licenses for APL2 which was popular with Wall Street and universities. So with just a handful of people, we put APL2 on other platforms for SAA. So the business case was that 10 people could make 32 million dollars more than 20 years ago. We also ran our manufacturing lines and production lines using APL programs. In addition, there was some hardware-drag because of vector processing. At the time, mainframes were slow and the vector processor sped up number crunching. APL2 could use the vector processor with no change to the code. Fortran code needed to be changed to vectorize loops, and I worked on changing customer Fortran code for that too. A person could learn to write APL2 code without understanding assembler code, so it was great for liberal arts majors.

--- In ibmpensionissues@..., Just Puttin' <JustPutt2@> wrote:

I remember APL1 quite well, started by Ken Iverson. ??Unfortunately, as good as it was as a developers/designer language, it never made it outside of IBM. ??What was the business case for working on APL2? ??APL1 was just not going anywhere in the outside world,,, Hell we were having a helluva time getting anyone to even listen to a short pitch on PL/1
Sometimes,, GREAT PEOPLE are in the RIGHT job, working for the company, ??for which they are NOT best suited.
I personally found that several times in my IBM career. ??Sorry, you had an unfortunate experience.

??

________________________________
From: pvsutera <no_reply@...>
To: ibmpensionissues@...
Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2013 10:14 PM
Subject: [ibmpensionissues] Re: "Poof" goes your Future Health Account !



??
He was laid off in 2002, not in the 1990s. The bloated IBM you speak of is the current IBM! In the early-90s I was in APL2 development. We had a department of 12 and made 32 million dollars a year. Nonetheless, we were warned there would be cuts in '94, and I leapfrogged out of there and saved my skin for another 19+ years. Maybe the appender was a part of this bloat, maybe he was not. But losing a few thousand dollars of health benefits per person is chicken feed for a company that commonly squanders billions on stock-buybacks with little effect on price, I might add. Let's look at the real bloat first.

--- In ibmpensionissues@..., Just Puttin' <JustPutt2@> wrote:

Has it ever occurred to you that you might have been a part of the "Bloated IBM, from the mid '80s on to the mid '90s. ????There must have been close to 100,000 employees doing non-productive work or working on non-profitable products, in that era. ????The company almost collapse from the obsolete products and onerous labor burden, associated with those products.

Stop bitching if you weren't there through those years.
????

________________________________
From: pvsutera <no_reply@...>
To: ibmpensionissues@...
Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2013 9:44 PM
Subject: [ibmpensionissues] Re: "Poof" goes your Future Health Account !



????
I knew about all the FHA stuff. I didn't know 15,000 people were terminated in 2002. I should have known as I had a neighbor who was
affected. And not a surprise that Sam had just taken the helm and started the R/A ball rolling. As far as I know there were no large job actions between January 1995, until the 2002 firings you mentioned. We only saw temp employees lose their jobs. Not that Gerstner wouldn't have fired these people if he hadn't retired (he was 60), but Palmisano was the architect of IBM's second wave of massive US firings. I believe that IBM has fired more people than any other corporation on the face of the earth. And some of the early '90s voluntary transition programs had some strong-arm tactics too.

--- In ibmpensionissues@..., "Christopher Novak" <cnovak@> wrote:

I was 39 when they switched plans.. 18yrs of service but only 39 so
I got the new plan. Can't believe this is legal. Wouldn't this be
age discrimination? Met company requirements to retire but they
say not old enough to collect the medical money? Telling me I have
to wait till I'm 55 makes sense but forfeit it all has to be
against the law... Some law.. Anyone know if anyone ever
challenged this in court? I would suspect IBM had it's attorneys
lock this down but curious. I would bet that if this got in front
of a jury they would side with the employee.. But guessing that
will never happen.

=============================

Others have written that IBM's new 401K practice of annual instead of semi-monthly match gives IBM a financial incentive to fire employees with at least part of the employee's severance funded by canceling IBM's accrued liability of the individual's 401K match.

Eligibility for the Future Health Account gives the same incentive. 15,000 IBM'ers were fired in 2002. I was 47, with 24.5 years of service, and even with 5+5 (add 5 years to age, and 5 years to service to get to either 55 or 30), my numbers of 52 & 29.5 meant that I was unable to bridge to retirement. Altho I retained my Pension 1, "poof" went my FHA (2002 value about $25K). I'm sure some personnel accountant figured that erasing that future liability funded other immediate severance costs.

Individual litigation is expensive; short of a class action or Department of Justice/Labor interest in these things, it'll probably never be tested in court.

"At Will" employment is supposed to be equal between employer and employee. I can understand losing a promised benefit had I left voluntarily or been terminated 'for cause' (NOT usually the case in a "resource action". However I think the deck is stacked against the employee when the employer can reduce termination costs by NOT having to pay promised benefits when they fire employees.

I remember APL1 quite well, started by Ken Iverson. ??Unfortunately, as good as it was as a developers/designer language, it never made it outside of IBM. ??What was the business case for working on APL2? ??APL1 was just not going anywhere in the outside world,,, Hell we were having a helluva time getting anyone to even listen to a short pitch on PL/1
Sometimes,, GREAT PEOPLE are in the RIGHT job, working for the company, ??for which they are NOT best suited.
I personally found that several times in my IBM career. ??Sorry, you had an unfortunate experience.

??

________________________________
From: pvsutera <no_reply@...>
To: ibmpensionissues@...
Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2013 10:14 PM
Subject: [ibmpensionissues] Re: "Poof" goes your Future Health Account !



??
He was laid off in 2002, not in the 1990s. The bloated IBM you speak of is the current IBM! In the early-90s I was in APL2 development. We had a department of 12 and made 32 million dollars a year. Nonetheless, we were warned there would be cuts in '94, and I leapfrogged out of there and saved my skin for another 19+ years. Maybe the appender was a part of this bloat, maybe he was not. But losing a few thousand dollars of health benefits per person is chicken feed for a company that commonly squanders billions on stock-buybacks with little effect on price, I might add. Let's look at the real bloat first.

--- In ibmpensionissues@..., Just Puttin' <JustPutt2@> wrote:

Has it ever occurred to you that you might have been a part of the "Bloated IBM, from the mid '80s on to the mid '90s. ????There must have been close to 100,000 employees doing non-productive work or working on non-profitable products, in that era. ????The company almost collapse from the obsolete products and onerous labor burden, associated with those products.

Stop bitching if you weren't there through those years.
????

________________________________
From: pvsutera <no_reply@...>
To: ibmpensionissues@...
Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2013 9:44 PM
Subject: [ibmpensionissues] Re: "Poof" goes your Future Health Account !



????
I knew about all the FHA stuff. I didn't know 15,000 people were terminated in 2002. I should have known as I had a neighbor who was
affected. And not a surprise that Sam had just taken the helm and started the R/A ball rolling. As far as I know there were no large job actions between January 1995, until the 2002 firings you mentioned. We only saw temp employees lose their jobs. Not that Gerstner wouldn't have fired these people if he hadn't retired (he was 60), but Palmisano was the architect of IBM's second wave of massive US firings. I believe that IBM has fired more people than any other corporation on the face of the earth. And some of the early '90s voluntary transition programs had some strong-arm tactics too.

--- In ibmpensionissues@..., "Christopher Novak" <cnovak@> wrote:

I was 39 when they switched plans.. 18yrs of service but only 39 so
I got the new plan. Can't believe this is legal. Wouldn't this be
age discrimination? Met company requirements to retire but they
say not old enough to collect the medical money? Telling me I have
to wait till I'm 55 makes sense but forfeit it all has to be
against the law... Some law.. Anyone know if anyone ever
challenged this in court? I would suspect IBM had it's attorneys
lock this down but curious. I would bet that if this got in front
of a jury they would side with the employee.. But guessing that
will never happen.

=============================

Others have written that IBM's new 401K practice of annual instead of semi-monthly match gives IBM a financial incentive to fire employees with at least part of the employee's severance funded by canceling IBM's accrued liability of the individual's 401K match.

Eligibility for the Future Health Account gives the same incentive. 15,000 IBM'ers were fired in 2002. I was 47, with 24.5 years of service, and even with 5+5 (add 5 years to age, and 5 years to service to get to either 55 or 30), my numbers of 52 & 29.5 meant that I was unable to bridge to retirement. Altho I retained my Pension 1, "poof" went my FHA (2002 value about $25K). I'm sure some personnel accountant figured that erasing that future liability funded other immediate severance costs.

Individual litigation is expensive; short of a class action or Department of Justice/Labor interest in these things, it'll probably never be tested in court.

"At Will" employment is supposed to be equal between employer and employee. I can understand losing a promised benefit had I left voluntarily or been terminated 'for cause' (NOT usually the case in a "resource action". However I think the deck is stacked against the employee when the employer can reduce termination costs by NOT having to pay promised benefits when they fire employees.

---

From: pvsutera
To: ibmpensionissues@...
Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2013 10:14 PM
Subject: [ibmpensionissues] Re: "Poof" goes your Future Health Account !

?

He was laid off in 2002, not in the 1990s. The bloated IBM you speak of is the current IBM! In the early-90s I was in APL2 development. We had a department of 12 and made 32 million dollars a year. Nonetheless, we were warned there would be cuts in '94, and I leapfrogged out of there and saved my skin for another 19+ years. Maybe the appender was a part of this bloat, maybe he was not. But losing a few thousand dollars of health benefits per person is chicken feed for a company that commonly squanders billions on stock-buybacks with little effect on price, I might add. Let's look at the real bloat first.

--- In ibmpensionissues@..., Just Puttin' >
> Has it ever occurred to you that you might have been a part of the "Bloated IBM, from the mid '80s on to the mid '90s. ??There must have been close to 100,000 employees doing non-productive work or working on non-profitable products, in that era. ??The company almost collapse from the obsolete products and onerous labor burden, associated with those products.
>
> Stop bitching if you weren't there through those years.
> ??
>
>
>
> >________________________________
> > From: pvsutera <no_reply@...>
> >To: ibmpensionissues@...
> >Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2013 9:44 PM
> >Subject: [ibmpensionissues] Re: "Poof" goes your Future Health Account !
> >
> >
> >
> >??
> >I knew about all the FHA stuff. I didn't know 15,000 people were terminated in 2002. I should have known as I had a neighbor who was
> >affected. And not a surprise that Sam had just taken the helm and started the R/A ball rolling. As far as I know there were no large job actions between January 1995, until the 2002 firings you mentioned. We only saw temp employees lose their jobs. Not that Gerstner wouldn't have fired these people if he hadn't retired (he was 60), but Palmisano was the architect of IBM's second wave of massive US firings. I believe that IBM has fired more people than any other corporation on the face of the earth. And some of the early '90s voluntary transition programs had some strong-arm tactics too.
> >
> >--- In ibmpensionissues@..., "Christopher Novak" wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> >> I was 39 when they switched plans.. 18yrs of service but only 39 so
> >> >> I got the new plan. Can't believe this is legal. Wouldn't this be
> >> >> age discrimination? Met company requirements to retire but they
> >> >> say not old enough to collect the medical money? Telling me I have
> >> >> to wait till I'm 55 makes sense but forfeit it all has to be
> >> >> against the law... Some law.. Anyone know if anyone ever
> >> >> challenged this in court? I would suspect IBM had it's attorneys
> >> >> lock this down but curious. I would bet that if this got in front
> >> >> of a jury they would side with the employee.. But guessing that
> >> >> will never happen.
> >> =============================
> >>
> >> Others have written that IBM's new 401K practice of annual instead of semi-monthly match gives IBM a financial incentive to fire employees with at least part of the employee's severance funded by canceling IBM's accrued liability of the individual's 401K match.
> >>
> >> Eligibility for the Future Health Account gives the same incentive. 15,000 IBM'ers were fired in 2002. I was 47, with 24.5 years of service, and even with 5+5 (add 5 years to age, and 5 years to service to get to either 55 or 30), my numbers of 52 & 29.5 meant that I was unable to bridge to retirement. Altho I retained my Pension 1, "poof" went my FHA (2002 value about $25K). I'm sure some personnel accountant figured that erasing that future liability funded other immediate severance costs.
> >>
> >> Individual litigation is expensive; short of a class action or Department of Justice/Labor interest in these things, it'll probably never be tested in court.
> >>
> >> "At Will" employment is supposed to be equal between employer and employee. I can understand losing a promised benefit had I left voluntarily or been terminated 'for cause' (NOT usually the case in a "resource action". However I think the deck is stacked against the employee when the employer can reduce termination costs by NOT having to pay promised benefits when they fire employees.
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

I knew about all the FHA stuff. I didn't know 15,000 people were terminated in 2002. I should have known as I had a neighbor who was
affected. And not a surprise that Sam had just taken the helm and started the R/A ball rolling. As far as I know there were no large job actions between January 1995, until the 2002 firings you mentioned. We only saw temp employees lose their jobs. Not that Gerstner wouldn't have fired these people if he hadn't retired (he was 60), but Palmisano was the architect of IBM's second wave of massive US firings. I believe that IBM has fired more people than any other corporation on the face of the earth. And some of the early '90s voluntary transition programs had some strong-arm tactics too.

--- In ibmpensionissues@..., "Christopher Novak" <cnovak@> wrote:

I was 39 when they switched plans.. 18yrs of service but only 39 so
I got the new plan. Can't believe this is legal. Wouldn't this be
age discrimination? Met company requirements to retire but they
say not old enough to collect the medical money? Telling me I have
to wait till I'm 55 makes sense but forfeit it all has to be
against the law... Some law.. Anyone know if anyone ever
challenged this in court? I would suspect IBM had it's attorneys
lock this down but curious. I would bet that if this got in front
of a jury they would side with the employee.. But guessing that
will never happen.

=============================

Others have written that IBM's new 401K practice of annual instead of semi-monthly match gives IBM a financial incentive to fire employees with at least part of the employee's severance funded by canceling IBM's accrued liability of the individual's 401K match.

Eligibility for the Future Health Account gives the same incentive. 15,000 IBM'ers were fired in 2002. I was 47, with 24.5 years of service, and even with 5+5 (add 5 years to age, and 5 years to service to get to either 55 or 30), my numbers of 52 & 29.5 meant that I was unable to bridge to retirement. Altho I retained my Pension 1, "poof" went my FHA (2002 value about $25K). I'm sure some personnel accountant figured that erasing that future liability funded other immediate severance costs.

Individual litigation is expensive; short of a class action or Department of Justice/Labor interest in these things, it'll probably never be tested in court.

"At Will" employment is supposed to be equal between employer and employee. I can understand losing a promised benefit had I left voluntarily or been terminated 'for cause' (NOT usually the case in a "resource action". However I think the deck is stacked against the employee when the employer can reduce termination costs by NOT having to pay promised benefits when they fire employees.

Anyone else in this boat. Terminated from the company, forced to retire, more then enough years to retire but forfeiting the FHA account because not 55 years old? What kind of nonsense is this? I could see not being able to access the account until 55 years old but forfeit it? Doesn't seem legal..

Has it ever occurred to you that you might have been a part of the "Bloated IBM, from the mid '80s on to the mid '90s. ??There must have been close to 100,000 employees doing non-productive work or working on non-profitable products, in that era. ??The company almost collapse from the obsolete products and onerous labor burden, associated with those products.

Stop bitching if you weren't there through those years.
??

________________________________
From: pvsutera <no_reply@...>
To: ibmpensionissues@...
Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2013 9:44 PM
Subject: [ibmpensionissues] Re: "Poof" goes your Future Health Account !



??
I knew about all the FHA stuff. I didn't know 15,000 people were terminated in 2002. I should have known as I had a neighbor who was
affected. And not a surprise that Sam had just taken the helm and started the R/A ball rolling. As far as I know there were no large job actions between January 1995, until the 2002 firings you mentioned. We only saw temp employees lose their jobs. Not that Gerstner wouldn't have fired these people if he hadn't retired (he was 60), but Palmisano was the architect of IBM's second wave of massive US firings. I believe that IBM has fired more people than any other corporation on the face of the earth. And some of the early '90s voluntary transition programs had some strong-arm tactics too.

--- In ibmpensionissues@..., "Christopher Novak" <cnovak@> wrote:

I was 39 when they switched plans.. 18yrs of service but only 39 so
I got the new plan. Can't believe this is legal. Wouldn't this be
age discrimination? Met company requirements to retire but they
say not old enough to collect the medical money? Telling me I have
to wait till I'm 55 makes sense but forfeit it all has to be
against the law... Some law.. Anyone know if anyone ever
challenged this in court? I would suspect IBM had it's attorneys
lock this down but curious. I would bet that if this got in front
of a jury they would side with the employee.. But guessing that
will never happen.

=============================

Others have written that IBM's new 401K practice of annual instead of semi-monthly match gives IBM a financial incentive to fire employees with at least part of the employee's severance funded by canceling IBM's accrued liability of the individual's 401K match.

Eligibility for the Future Health Account gives the same incentive. 15,000 IBM'ers were fired in 2002. I was 47, with 24.5 years of service, and even with 5+5 (add 5 years to age, and 5 years to service to get to either 55 or 30), my numbers of 52 & 29.5 meant that I was unable to bridge to retirement. Altho I retained my Pension 1, "poof" went my FHA (2002 value about $25K). I'm sure some personnel accountant figured that erasing that future liability funded other immediate severance costs.

Individual litigation is expensive; short of a class action or Department of Justice/Labor interest in these things, it'll probably never be tested in court.

"At Will" employment is supposed to be equal between employer and employee. I can understand losing a promised benefit had I left voluntarily or been terminated 'for cause' (NOT usually the case in a "resource action". However I think the deck is stacked against the employee when the employer can reduce termination costs by NOT having to pay promised benefits when they fire employees.

---

From: pvsutera
To: ibmpensionissues@...
Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2013 9:44 PM
Subject: [ibmpensionissues] Re: "Poof" goes your Future Health Account !

?

I knew about all the FHA stuff. I didn't know 15,000 people were terminated in 2002. I should have known as I had a neighbor who was
affected. And not a surprise that Sam had just taken the helm and started the R/A ball rolling. As far as I know there were no large job actions between January 1995, until the 2002 firings you mentioned. We only saw temp employees lose their jobs. Not that Gerstner wouldn't have fired these people if he hadn't retired (he was 60), but Palmisano was the architect of IBM's second wave of massive US firings. I believe that IBM has fired more people than any other corporation on the face of the earth. And some of the early '90s voluntary transition programs had some strong-arm tactics too.

--- In ibmpensionissues@..., "Christopher Novak" wrote:
>
>
>
> >> I was 39 when they switched plans.. 18yrs of service but only 39 so
> >> I got the new plan. Can't believe this is legal. Wouldn't this be
> >> age discrimination? Met company requirements to retire but they
> >> say not old enough to collect the medical money? Telling me I have
> >> to wait till I'm 55 makes sense but forfeit it all has to be
> >> against the law... Some law.. Anyone know if anyone ever
> >> challenged this in court? I would suspect IBM had it's attorneys
> >> lock this down but curious. I would bet that if this got in front
> >> of a jury they would side with the employee.. But guessing that
> >> will never happen.
> =============================
>
> Others have written that IBM's new 401K practice of annual instead of semi-monthly match gives IBM a financial incentive to fire employees with at least part of the employee's severance funded by canceling IBM's accrued liability of the individual's 401K match.
>
> Eligibility for the Future Health Account gives the same incentive. 15,000 IBM'ers were fired in 2002. I was 47, with 24.5 years of service, and even with 5+5 (add 5 years to age, and 5 years to service to get to either 55 or 30), my numbers of 52 & 29.5 meant that I was unable to bridge to retirement. Altho I retained my Pension 1, "poof" went my FHA (2002 value about $25K). I'm sure some personnel accountant figured that erasing that future liability funded other immediate severance costs.
>
> Individual litigation is expensive; short of a class action or Department of Justice/Labor interest in these things, it'll probably never be tested in court.
>
> "At Will" employment is supposed to be equal between employer and employee. I can understand losing a promised benefit had I left voluntarily or been terminated 'for cause' (NOT usually the case in a "resource action". However I think the deck is stacked against the employee when the employer can reduce termination costs by NOT having to pay promised benefits when they fire employees.
>

I was 39 when they switched plans.. 18yrs of service but only 39 so
I got the new plan. Can't believe this is legal. Wouldn't this be
age discrimination? Met company requirements to retire but they
say not old enough to collect the medical money? Telling me I have
to wait till I'm 55 makes sense but forfeit it all has to be
against the law... Some law.. Anyone know if anyone ever
challenged this in court? I would suspect IBM had it's attorneys
lock this down but curious. I would bet that if this got in front
of a jury they would side with the employee.. But guessing that
will never happen.

=============================

Others have written that IBM's new 401K practice of annual instead of semi-monthly match gives IBM a financial incentive to fire employees with at least part of the employee's severance funded by canceling IBM's accrued liability of the individual's 401K match.

Eligibility for the Future Health Account gives the same incentive. 15,000 IBM'ers were fired in 2002. I was 47, with 24.5 years of service, and even with 5+5 (add 5 years to age, and 5 years to service to get to either 55 or 30), my numbers of 52 & 29.5 meant that I was unable to bridge to retirement. Altho I retained my Pension 1, "poof" went my FHA (2002 value about $25K). I'm sure some personnel accountant figured that erasing that future liability funded other immediate severance costs.

Individual litigation is expensive; short of a class action or Department of Justice/Labor interest in these things, it'll probably never be tested in court.

"At Will" employment is supposed to be equal between employer and employee. I can understand losing a promised benefit had I left voluntarily or been terminated 'for cause' (NOT usually the case in a "resource action". However I think the deck is stacked against the employee when the employer can reduce termination costs by NOT having to pay promised benefits when they fire employees.