Better to put the photo or file in the group's photo or file space so
people don't have to register/sign in to/visit [possibly sketchy]
foreign sites.

</g/homebrewpcbs/files>
    or
</g/homebrewpcbs/photos>

We all benefit from keeping the files in the group.

Donald.
--
*Plain Text* email -- it's an accessibility issue
() no proprietary attachments; no html mail
/\ 

On 2020-07-28 1:52 a.m., brane212 wrote:

On mailing lists, in general, no.

Upload image somewhere ( like on your google account under "images") and
post the link to there.

Images would enlarge emails and this could overload list mail server and
be used as an DDOS attack. Also, once you allow bibnary content, it's
hardfor it to be controlled ( virii, other harmfull and illegal content
etc).





On 28. 07. 20 05:34, Rob via groups.io wrote:

Just curious....

I put an image in this email but it did not appear when I received it.

Are images not allowed?



On 07/27/2020 11:11 PM, Rob via groups.io wrote:

Mushrooms might help.

Its a light issue.

The more light... the more the distortion.

On white paper .... white screen..black text.....the letters look
like PAC MAN bit pieces out of the letters.

When it first started I thought my hippie teenage kids slipped me acid.

I saw what looked like a light pole floating in free air space....

so I played with an image to show my doctors what it looks like to me.

Funny thing was when my doctor told me the good news was my kids did
not slip me acid....

and I replied... "thats not good news..... acid wears off... I went
to high school in the 70s."






On 07/27/2020 10:16 PM, brane212 wrote:

BTW, out of curiosity, is that edge & shape distortion that you have
consistent ?

IOW, on those girls=monsters example, does each "monster" change its
shape with time/angle/distance/light intensity/light color/surroundigs,
or is each "monster" always the same ?

BTW2:
Good news:??? Your life is now a Star Trek.
Bad news:???? You are not Captain Kirk or Commander Riker.

;o)


Good news - you need mushrooms daily to return vision to normal ?
;o)

On mailing lists, in general, no.

Upload image somewhere ( like on your google account under "images") and
post the link to there.

Images would enlarge emails and this could overload list mail server and
be used as an DDOS attack. Also, once you allow bibnary content, it's
hardfor it to be controlled ( virii, other harmfull and illegal content
etc).





On 28. 07. 20 05:34, Rob via groups.io wrote:

Just curious....

I put an image in this email but it did not appear when I received it.

Are images not allowed?



On 07/27/2020 11:11 PM, Rob via groups.io wrote:

Mushrooms might help.

Its a light issue.

The more light... the more the distortion.

On white paper .... white screen..black text.....the letters look
like PAC MAN bit pieces out of the letters.

When it first started I thought my hippie teenage kids slipped me acid.

I saw what looked like a light pole floating in free air space....

so I played with an image to show my doctors what it looks like to me.

Funny thing was when my doctor told me the good news was my kids did
not slip me acid....

and I replied... "thats not good news..... acid wears off... I went
to high school in the 70s."






On 07/27/2020 10:16 PM, brane212 wrote:

BTW, out of curiosity, is that edge & shape distortion that you have
consistent ?

IOW, on those girls=monsters example, does each "monster" change its
shape with time/angle/distance/light intensity/light color/surroundigs,
or is each "monster" always the same ?

BTW2:
Good news:??? Your life is now a Star Trek.
Bad news:???? You are not Captain Kirk or Commander Riker.

;o)


Good news - you need mushrooms daily to return vision to normal ?
;o)

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf
Of brane212
Sent: 28 July 2020 06:52
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [homebrewpcbs] Videos

On mailing lists, in general, no.

Upload image somewhere ( like on your google account under "images") and
post the link to there.

Images would enlarge emails and this could overload list mail server and be
used as an DDOS attack. Also, once you allow bibnary content, it's hardfor it
to be controlled ( virii, other harmfull and illegal content etc).





On 28. 07. 20 05:34, Rob via groups.io wrote:

Just curious....

I put an image in this email but it did not appear when I received it.

Are images not allowed?



On 07/27/2020 11:11 PM, Rob via groups.io wrote:

Mushrooms might help.

Its a light issue.

The more light... the more the distortion.

On white paper .... white screen..black text.....the letters look
like PAC MAN bit pieces out of the letters.

When it first started I thought my hippie teenage kids slipped me acid.

I saw what looked like a light pole floating in free air space....

so I played with an image to show my doctors what it looks like to me.

Funny thing was when my doctor told me the good news was my kids did
not slip me acid....

and I replied... "thats not good news..... acid wears off... I went
to high school in the 70s."






On 07/27/2020 10:16 PM, brane212 wrote:

BTW, out of curiosity, is that edge & shape distortion that you have
consistent ?

IOW, on those girls=monsters example, does each "monster" change its
shape with time/angle/distance/light intensity/light
color/surroundigs, or is each "monster" always the same ?

BTW2:
Good news: Your life is now a Star Trek.
Bad news: You are not Captain Kirk or Commander Riker.

;o)


Good news - you need mushrooms daily to return vision to normal ?
;o)

--








Branko Badrljica
Chief Editor/glavni urednik

g. +386 (0)40/423-303 ? t. +386 (0)59/156-643




*Medija kit (predstavitev in cenik)
<
node.net/AVTOMATIKA/MEDIAKIT2020/MEDIAKIT2020.PDF>*
*Arhiv Avtomatike+E
<>* *Revija
Avtomatika+E Online <>*
*Media kit (intro & pricelist)
<
ENG.PDF>*
* ARCHIVE Avtomatika+E
<>*
* Avtomatika+E Online <>*
<>
S5TEHNIKA.net d.o.o.
SOSTRSKA CESTA 43C
1261 Ljubljana Dobrunje
ID za DDV: SI81396236

OK
so
this is the image:

On 07/28/2020 01:52 AM, brane212 wrote:

On mailing lists, in general, no.

Upload image somewhere ( like on your google account under "images") and post the link to there.

Images would enlarge emails and this could overload list mail server and
be used as an DDOS attack. Also, once you allow bibnary content, it's hardfor it to be controlled ( virii, other harmfull and illegal content etc).





On 28. 07. 20 05:34, Rob via groups.io wrote:

Just curious....

I put an image in this email but it did not appear when I received it.

Are images not allowed?



On 07/27/2020 11:11 PM, Rob via groups.io wrote:

Mushrooms might help.

Its a light issue.

The more light... the more the distortion.

On white paper .... white screen..black text.....the letters look like PAC MAN bit pieces out of the letters.

When it first started I thought my hippie teenage kids slipped me acid.

I saw what looked like a light pole floating in free air space....

so I played with an image to show my doctors what it looks like to me.

Funny thing was when my doctor told me the good news was my kids did not slip me acid....

and I replied... "thats not good news..... acid wears off... I went to high school in the 70s."






On 07/27/2020 10:16 PM, brane212 wrote:

BTW, out of curiosity, is that edge & shape distortion that you have consistent ?

IOW, on those girls=monsters example, does each "monster" change its shape with time/angle/distance/light intensity/light color/surroundigs,
or is each "monster" always the same ?

BTW2:
Good news:??? Your life is now a Star Trek.
Bad news:???? You are not Captain Kirk or Commander Riker.

;o)


Good news - you need mushrooms daily to return vision to normal ?
;o)

On mailing lists, in general, no.

Upload image somewhere ( like on your google account under "images") and post the link to there.

Images would enlarge emails and this could overload list mail server and
be used as an DDOS attack. Also, once you allow bibnary content, it's hardfor it to be controlled ( virii, other harmfull and illegal content etc).





On 28. 07. 20 05:34, Rob via groups.io wrote:

Just curious....

I put an image in this email but it did not appear when I received it.

Are images not allowed?



On 07/27/2020 11:11 PM, Rob via groups.io wrote:

Mushrooms might help.

Its a light issue.

The more light... the more the distortion.

On white paper .... white screen..black text.....the letters look like PAC MAN bit pieces out of the letters.

When it first started I thought my hippie teenage kids slipped me acid.

I saw what looked like a light pole floating in free air space....

so I played with an image to show my doctors what it looks like to me.

Funny thing was when my doctor told me the good news was my kids did not slip me acid....

and I replied... "thats not good news..... acid wears off... I went to high school in the 70s."






On 07/27/2020 10:16 PM, brane212 wrote:

BTW, out of curiosity, is that edge & shape distortion that you have consistent ?

IOW, on those girls=monsters example, does each "monster" change its shape with time/angle/distance/light intensity/light color/surroundigs,
or is each "monster" always the same ?

BTW2:
Good news:??? Your life is now a Star Trek.
Bad news:???? You are not Captain Kirk or Commander Riker.

;o)


Good news - you need mushrooms daily to return vision to normal ?
;o)

Just curious....
I put an image in this email but it did not appear when I received it.
Are images not allowed?
On 07/27/2020 11:11 PM, Rob via groups.io wrote:

Mushrooms might help.

Its a light issue.

The more light... the more the distortion.

On white paper .... white screen..black text.....the letters look like PAC MAN bit pieces out of the letters.

When it first started I thought my hippie teenage kids slipped me acid.

I saw what looked like a light pole floating in free air space....

so I played with an image to show my doctors what it looks like to me.

Funny thing was when my doctor told me the good news was my kids did not slip me acid....

and I replied... "thats not good news..... acid wears off... I went to high school in the 70s."






On 07/27/2020 10:16 PM, brane212 wrote:

BTW, out of curiosity, is that edge & shape distortion that you have consistent ?

IOW, on those girls=monsters example, does each "monster" change its shape with time/angle/distance/light intensity/light color/surroundigs,
or is each "monster" always the same ?

BTW2:
Good news:??? Your life is now a Star Trek.
Bad news:???? You are not Captain Kirk or Commander Riker.

;o)


Good news - you need mushrooms daily to return vision to normal ?
;o)

Mushrooms might help.

Its a light issue.

The more light... the more the distortion.

On white paper .... white screen..black text.....the letters look like PAC MAN bit pieces out of the letters.

When it first started I thought my hippie teenage kids slipped me acid.

I saw what looked like a light pole floating in free air space....

so I played with an image to show my doctors what it looks like to me.

Funny thing was when my doctor told me the good news was my kids did not slip me acid....

and I replied... "thats not good news..... acid wears off... I went to high school in the 70s."

On 07/27/2020 10:16 PM, brane212 wrote:

BTW, out of curiosity, is that edge & shape distortion that you have consistent ?

IOW, on those girls=monsters example, does each "monster" change its shape with time/angle/distance/light intensity/light color/surroundigs,
or is each "monster" always the same ?

BTW2:
Good news:??? Your life is now a Star Trek.
Bad news:???? You are not Captain Kirk or Commander Riker.

;o)


Good news - you need mushrooms daily to return vision to normal ?
;o)

BTW, out of curiosity, is that edge & shape distortion that you have consistent ?

IOW, on those girls=monsters example, does each "monster" change its shape with time/angle/distance/light intensity/light color/surroundigs,
or is each "monster" always the same ?

BTW2:
Good news:??? Your life is now a Star Trek.
Bad news:???? You are not Captain Kirk or Commander Riker.

;o)


Good news - you need mushrooms daily to return vision to normal ?
;o)

BTW, out of curiosity, is that edge & shape distortion that you have consistent ?

IOW, on those girls=monsters example, does each "monster" change its shape with time/angle/distance/light intensity/light color/surroundigs,
or is each "monster" always the same ?

BTW2:
Good news:??? Your life is now a Star Trek.
Bad news:???? You are not Captain Kirk or Commander Riker.

;o)




On 27. 07. 20 18:52, Rob via groups.io wrote:

Thanks Sarma....

but no recovery.... vision scrambled 19 years ago and I have not driven a car in 19 years.

But its not so bad. Everybody looks like a Picasso painting to me.

Good and bad.

Pretty girls look like monsters....? bent nose.... ears.....

BUT

ugly girls look like monsters to me..........

so everybody? looks the same to me.



On 07/27/2020 05:07 AM, MVS Sarma wrote:

Wish Rob? a stable and fast recovery.

On Mon, 27 Jul 2020, 1:52 pm MVS Sarma via groups.io <>, <mvssarma@... <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:

??? Wish you to recover soober Rob

??? Regards
??? Sarma? vu3zmv

??? On Mon, 27 Jul 2020, 1:13 pm Rob via groups.io <>,
??? <roomberg@... <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:

??????? My vision is impaired.

??????? I have something like macular degeneration messed up retinas and
??????? everything looks crushed and twisted to me so

??????? I need bigger, much bigger , everything .......when I tinker with
??????? electronics.

??????? and

??????? all of the CAD interfaces have tiny text on racks of tools and
??????? buttons
??????? onscreen

??????? and

??????? all of the features and settings are easily trashed by me
??????? tripping
??????? accidentally over them

??????? so

??????? I step back and declare thats not my tool set and stick
??????? "caveman" simple
??????? ... paint on the wall.....

??????? and get the desired results.

??????? and

??????? I share these tidbits with you all because HOME BREW PCBS is
??????? really at
??????? all levels.....?? from the simple hand drawn sharpie on PCB to
??????? the
??????? advanced CAD

??????? programs with detailed granularity tracking component libraries.


??????? There is something for everybody here.

??????? I learned how to make GERBER files last winter.

??????? Neat stuff.

??????? Have fun.

??????? I am.














??????? On 07/27/2020 03:28 AM, brane212 wrote:
??????? > Don0t see the point.
??????? >
??????? > gEDA + PCB is not complicated. Just the opposite.
??????? >
??????? > Whatever the elarnign curve is, it affects stuff you need to
??????? knwow
??????? > anyway. YOu can use PCB directly, but I find it to be a pain
??????? without
??????? > schematic.
??????? >
??????? > Only slightly cryptic thing is to learn to define an element.
??????? > BFew tidbits aside, it's not that different from drawqing a
??????? schematic.
??????? >
??????? >
??????? > Schematic is a good bookkeeping part that that you need for
??????? > documentation and keeping the basis fro netlist ( what ought
??????? to be
??????? > connected with what).
??????? >
??????? > PCB contains stuff that you need. GIMP has no concept of
??????? element.
??????? > You can't just move the resistor pads in GIMP etc.
??????? >
??????? > Above, all GIMP can't keep you in check - shorts and breaks
??????? are made
??????? > easily, once your example contains anything more than one
??????? transistor
??????? > and couple resistors.
??????? >
??????? > With PCB, printing is relatively easy - just export EPS ina
??????? importi in
??????? > Inkscape. This way you can easily do DIY panelization -
??????? import EPS of
??????? > wantd layers, mirror them and arrange as you wish.
??????? >
??????? > Also, GIMP is raster-based. SO, to get deccent resolution, you
??????? > probably need 1200 dpi. WHich can get really slow, once you
??????? have
??????? > bigger board and more layers.
??????? >
??????? > Really, no reason to torture yourself with GIMP for this.
??????? >
??????? > Don't know about KiCAD ( never liked it), but
??????? gEDA+PCB+Inkscape is
??????? > golden for this. Plus gerbview to check design before
??????? sending it to
??????? > manuifacturing.
??????? >
??????? >
??????? >
??????? >
??????? >
??????? >
??????? >
??????? > On 27. 07. 20 05:47, Rob via groups.io <> wrote:
??????? >> Here's some tidbits to chew on for home brewing your own PCBs
??????? >> "caveman" style.... without the aid of
??????? >>
??????? >> the complicated CAD....? (C)omputer (A)ided (D)esign software.
??????? >>
??????? >> Take this for what its worth for you.....?? I make no
??????? claims to fame
??????? >> here.... just massive success.. again and again and
??????? again... for me
??????? >> and my tinkering with building
??????? >>
??????? >> radios and other electronic toys from scratch without
??????? suffering
??????? >> through the indiginities of breadboard or loose wires or
??????? crazy glue
??????? >> pads failing to work then chasing tail for a week.
??????? >>
??????? >>
??????? >> It always starts with a schematic.
??????? >>
??????? >> so.....
??????? >>
??????? >> I simply take a picture of the schematic and open it in
??????? GIMP image
??????? >> editer....?? learn here if you don't know it:
???????
??????? >>
??????? >> These images came from :
??????? >>
??????? >>
??????? >>
??????? >>
??????? >>
??????? >> and then simply trace all of the thin lines with a fat
??????? black ink pen
??????? >> tool and
??????? >> add donut holes for all components and draw the components
??????? in red or
??????? >> purple
??????? >> and move things around enough to accomodate physical parts
??????? connections.
??????? >> AND ALWAYS LAY PARTs DOWN.... never have resistors or
??????? diodes standing
??????? >> on one end.
??????? >>
??????? >> Laying parts down uses more space but it makes it much
??????? easier for
??????? >> kids and newbies to
??????? >> succesfully build a radio.
??????? >> AND
??????? >> laying parts down create HUGE pathways on the copper side
??????? of the
??????? >> board to accomodate
??????? >> trace routing without being screwed by tight spacing.
??????? >>
??????? >>
??????? >>
??????? >>
??????? >>
??????? >>
??????? >>
??????? >> and then I remove everything ... just erase all the text
??????? and purple
??????? >> and have toner transfer ready artwork.
??????? >>
??????? >>
??????? >> This is one the the most simple examples I share because it
??????? is a $5
??????? >> short wave receiver
??????? >>
??????? >> that has been made all over the world... because it is so
??????? simple to
??????? >> reproduce succesfully.
??????? >>
??????? >> I few modifications later....?????? and final outcome was this:
??????? >>
??????? >>
??????? >>
??????? >>
??????? >>
??????? >>
??????? >>
??????? >>
??????? >> On 07/26/2020 10:24 PM, Charlie Hansen wrote:
??????? >>> And then there's fun of solving a "puzzle" with the
??????? routing of the
??????? >>> traces, avoiding "ground loops", noisy power traces, etc
??????? etc. I too
??????? >>> haven't used Eagle etc, but I DO like to use a simple CAD like
??????? >>> Micrographics Designer V3x
??????? >>> Charlie
??????? >>>
??????? >>> ??? And then
??????? >>>
??????? >>> ??? there's all sorts of CAD programmer to help you... but
??????? you may not
??????? >>> ??? need CAD.
??????? >>>
??????? >>> ??? I have made more than 100 PCBs and I have not yet used
??????? ANY EAGLE
??????? >>> ??? or any other CAD program.
??????? >>>
??????? >>>
??????? >>> ??? Rob
??????? >>>
??????? >>>
??????? >>>
??????? >>>
??????? >>>
??????? >>>
??????? >>>
??????? >>>
??????? >>>
??????? >>>
??????? >>>
??????? >>>
??????? >>>
??????? >>>
??????? >>>
??????? >>>
??????? >>>
??????? >>> ??? On 07/25/2020 09:30 PM, Harvey White wrote:
??????? >>>>
??????? >>>> ??? Nope.? Don't do videos.
??????? >>>>
??????? >>>> ??? Now questions:
??????? >>>>
??????? >>>> ??? 1) designing what?? Digital? Analog?? RF?
??????? >>>>
??????? >>>> ??? 2) what level of complexity?? Do you need 1 layer, 2
??????? layer, or 4
??????? >>>> ??? layer boards?
??????? >>>>
??????? >>>> ??? 3) do you intend to produce these boards yourself?
??????? (it makes a
??????? >>>> ??? difference in how you design them).
??????? >>>>
??????? >>>> ??? 4) how big are they (can make a difference in either
??????? cost/who
??????? >>>> ??? makes it or design/what program you use)?
??????? >>>>
??????? >>>> ??? 5) what program do you use?
??????? >>>>
??????? >>>> ??? 6) have you any experience with PC board design?
??????? >>>>
??????? >>>> ??? 7) what level of hardware debug do you want to put
??????? into the
??????? >>>> ??? boards (test points?? test pads? logic analyzer
??????? breakouts?
??????? >>>> ??? ground posts?)
??????? >>>>
??????? >>>> ??? 8) what kind of facilities do you have to make PC boards?
??????? >>>>
??????? >>>> ??? 9) have you done any of this before?
??????? >>>>
??????? >>>> ??? 10) what level (roughly) in electronics design are you
??????? >>>> ??? comfortable with?? beginner? what?
??????? >>>>
??????? >>>>
??????? >>>> ??? All of these things have a bearing on *how* you
??????? design something,
??????? >>>> ??? what design you come up with, how many copies you'll
??????? need before
??????? >>>> ??? you get one that works (know that one.....), and
??????? whether or not
??????? >>>> ??? you can make the board yourself.
??????? >>>>
??????? >>>> ??? I know this may sound complicated, but answers to
??????? some of these
??????? >>>> ??? help others to gauge where you are in experience, and
??????? what you
??????? >>>> ??? need to know (IMHO, of course).
??????? >>>>
??????? >>>> ??? For me: (roughly)
??????? >>>>
??????? >>>> ??? 1) designing:? Digital,? Analog. Have done 100 pin
??????? flatpacks.
??????? >>>> ??? (self built), do 144 pin flatpacks when someone else
??????? builds them).
??????? >>>>
??????? >>>> ??? 2) I do double sided, plated through holes, silk
??????? screen, but
??????? >>>> ??? that's not me making them.? Have done toner transfer,
??????? 10 mil
??????? >>>> ??? trace, 10 mil spacing, double sided, wire stitch top
??????? and bottom
??????? >>>> ??? layers, tin/lead plated boards.
??????? >>>>
??????? >>>> ??? 3) do you intend to produce these boards yourself?
??????? (it makes a
??????? >>>> ??? difference in how you design them).
??????? >>>>
??????? >>>> ??? 4) no bigger than 100 cm * 100 cm because of the
??????? board house
??????? >>>> ??? limitations for cheap?
??????? >>>>
??????? >>>> ??? 5) EAGLE 7.7, hobby (6 x 4 inch) license, can't sell
??????? the boards.?
??????? >>>>
??????? >>>> ??? 6) by this time?? a fair amount, can always learn more
??????? >>>>
??????? >>>> ??? 7) logic analyzer breakouts for digital, pin headers
??????? for some
??????? >>>> ??? signals, some test pads, ground connectors, monitor leds
??????? >>>>
??????? >>>> ??? 8) used to make double sided boards, not plated
??????? through, designs
??????? >>>> ??? got too complicated for me to make
??????? >>>>
??????? >>>> ??? 9) lots
??????? >>>>
??????? >>>> ??? 10) not beginner in digital, some analog, power supply
??????? >>>>
??????? >>>> ??? Other people will have different opinions.
??????? >>>>
??????? >>>>
??????? >>>> ??? Harvey
??????? >>>>
??????? >>>>
??????? >>>> ??? On 7/12/2020 12:59 AM, davethetechman via groups.io
??????? <> wrote:
??????? >>>>>
??????? >>>>> ??? Hi, does anyone have any personal videos of
??????? designing with their
??????? >>>>> ??? own personal tips and hacks?
??????? >>>>>
??????? >>>>> ??? Recently new to this.
??????? >>>>>
??????? >>>>> ??? Thanks
??????? >>>>>
??????? >>>
??????? >>
??????? >>
??????? >
??????? >
??????? >

Thanks Sarma....
but no recovery.... vision scrambled 19 years ago and I have not driven a car in 19 years.
But its not so bad. Everybody looks like a Picasso painting to me.
Good and bad.
Pretty girls look like monsters....? bent nose.... ears.....
BUT
ugly girls look like monsters to me..........
so everybody? looks the same to me.
On 07/27/2020 05:07 AM, MVS Sarma wrote:

Wish Rob? a stable and fast recovery.

On Mon, 27 Jul 2020, 1:52 pm MVS Sarma via groups.io <>, <mvssarma@... <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:

Wish you to recover soober Rob

Regards
Sarma? vu3zmv

On Mon, 27 Jul 2020, 1:13 pm Rob via groups.io <>,
<roomberg@... <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:

My vision is impaired.

I have something like macular degeneration messed up retinas and
everything looks crushed and twisted to me so

I need bigger, much bigger , everything .......when I tinker with
electronics.

and

all of the CAD interfaces have tiny text on racks of tools and
buttons
onscreen

and

all of the features and settings are easily trashed by me
tripping
accidentally over them

so

I step back and declare thats not my tool set and stick
"caveman" simple
... paint on the wall.....

and get the desired results.

and

I share these tidbits with you all because HOME BREW PCBS is
really at
all levels.....?? from the simple hand drawn sharpie on PCB to
the
advanced CAD

programs with detailed granularity tracking component libraries.


There is something for everybody here.

I learned how to make GERBER files last winter.

Neat stuff.

Have fun.

I am.














On 07/27/2020 03:28 AM, brane212 wrote:
> Don0t see the point.
>
> gEDA + PCB is not complicated. Just the opposite.
>
> Whatever the elarnign curve is, it affects stuff you need to
knwow
> anyway. YOu can use PCB directly, but I find it to be a pain
without
> schematic.
>
> Only slightly cryptic thing is to learn to define an element.
> BFew tidbits aside, it's not that different from drawqing a
schematic.
>
>
> Schematic is a good bookkeeping part that that you need for
> documentation and keeping the basis fro netlist ( what ought
to be
> connected with what).
>
> PCB contains stuff that you need. GIMP has no concept of
element.
> You can't just move the resistor pads in GIMP etc.
>
> Above, all GIMP can't keep you in check - shorts and breaks
are made
> easily, once your example contains anything more than one
transistor
> and couple resistors.
>
> With PCB, printing is relatively easy - just export EPS ina
importi in
> Inkscape. This way you can easily do DIY panelization -
import EPS of
> wantd layers, mirror them and arrange as you wish.
>
> Also, GIMP is raster-based. SO, to get deccent resolution, you
> probably need 1200 dpi. WHich can get really slow, once you
have
> bigger board and more layers.
>
> Really, no reason to torture yourself with GIMP for this.
>
> Don't know about KiCAD ( never liked it), but
gEDA+PCB+Inkscape is
> golden for this. Plus gerbview to check design before
sending it to
> manuifacturing.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 27. 07. 20 05:47, Rob via groups.io <> wrote:
>> Here's some tidbits to chew on for home brewing your own PCBs
>> "caveman" style.... without the aid of
>>
>> the complicated CAD....? (C)omputer (A)ided (D)esign software.
>>
>> Take this for what its worth for you.....?? I make no
claims to fame
>> here.... just massive success.. again and again and
again... for me
>> and my tinkering with building
>>
>> radios and other electronic toys from scratch without
suffering
>> through the indiginities of breadboard or loose wires or
crazy glue
>> pads failing to work then chasing tail for a week.
>>
>>
>> It always starts with a schematic.
>>
>> so.....
>>
>> I simply take a picture of the schematic and open it in
GIMP image
>> editer....?? learn here if you don't know it:

>>
>> These images came from :
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> and then simply trace all of the thin lines with a fat
black ink pen
>> tool and
>> add donut holes for all components and draw the components
in red or
>> purple
>> and move things around enough to accomodate physical parts
connections.
>> AND ALWAYS LAY PARTs DOWN.... never have resistors or
diodes standing
>> on one end.
>>
>> Laying parts down uses more space but it makes it much
easier for
>> kids and newbies to
>> succesfully build a radio.
>> AND
>> laying parts down create HUGE pathways on the copper side
of the
>> board to accomodate
>> trace routing without being screwed by tight spacing.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> and then I remove everything ... just erase all the text
and purple
>> and have toner transfer ready artwork.
>>
>>
>> This is one the the most simple examples I share because it
is a $5
>> short wave receiver
>>
>> that has been made all over the world... because it is so
simple to
>> reproduce succesfully.
>>
>> I few modifications later....?????? and final outcome was this:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 07/26/2020 10:24 PM, Charlie Hansen wrote:
>>> And then there's fun of solving a "puzzle" with the
routing of the
>>> traces, avoiding "ground loops", noisy power traces, etc
etc. I too
>>> haven't used Eagle etc, but I DO like to use a simple CAD like
>>> Micrographics Designer V3x
>>> Charlie
>>>
>>> ??? And then
>>>
>>> ??? there's all sorts of CAD programmer to help you... but
you may not
>>> ??? need CAD.
>>>
>>> ??? I have made more than 100 PCBs and I have not yet used
ANY EAGLE
>>> ??? or any other CAD program.
>>>
>>>
>>> ??? Rob
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ??? On 07/25/2020 09:30 PM, Harvey White wrote:
>>>>
>>>> ??? Nope.? Don't do videos.
>>>>
>>>> ??? Now questions:
>>>>
>>>> ??? 1) designing what?? Digital? Analog?? RF?
>>>>
>>>> ??? 2) what level of complexity?? Do you need 1 layer, 2
layer, or 4
>>>> ??? layer boards?
>>>>
>>>> ??? 3) do you intend to produce these boards yourself?
(it makes a
>>>> ??? difference in how you design them).
>>>>
>>>> ??? 4) how big are they (can make a difference in either
cost/who
>>>> ??? makes it or design/what program you use)?
>>>>
>>>> ??? 5) what program do you use?
>>>>
>>>> ??? 6) have you any experience with PC board design?
>>>>
>>>> ??? 7) what level of hardware debug do you want to put
into the
>>>> ??? boards (test points?? test pads? logic analyzer
breakouts?
>>>> ??? ground posts?)
>>>>
>>>> ??? 8) what kind of facilities do you have to make PC boards?
>>>>
>>>> ??? 9) have you done any of this before?
>>>>
>>>> ??? 10) what level (roughly) in electronics design are you
>>>> ??? comfortable with?? beginner?? what?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ??? All of these things have a bearing on *how* you
design something,
>>>> ??? what design you come up with, how many copies you'll
need before
>>>> ??? you get one that works (know that one.....), and
whether or not
>>>> ??? you can make the board yourself.
>>>>
>>>> ??? I know this may sound complicated, but answers to
some of these
>>>> ??? help others to gauge where you are in experience, and
what you
>>>> ??? need to know (IMHO, of course).
>>>>
>>>> ??? For me: (roughly)
>>>>
>>>> ??? 1) designing:? Digital,? Analog. Have done 100 pin
flatpacks.
>>>> ??? (self built), do 144 pin flatpacks when someone else
builds them).
>>>>
>>>> ??? 2) I do double sided, plated through holes, silk
screen, but
>>>> ??? that's not me making them.? Have done toner transfer,
10 mil
>>>> ??? trace, 10 mil spacing, double sided, wire stitch top
and bottom
>>>> ??? layers, tin/lead plated boards.
>>>>
>>>> ??? 3) do you intend to produce these boards yourself?
(it makes a
>>>> ??? difference in how you design them).
>>>>
>>>> ??? 4) no bigger than 100 cm * 100 cm because of the
board house
>>>> ??? limitations for cheap?
>>>>
>>>> ??? 5) EAGLE 7.7, hobby (6 x 4 inch) license, can't sell
the boards.?
>>>>
>>>> ??? 6) by this time?? a fair amount, can always learn more
>>>>
>>>> ??? 7) logic analyzer breakouts for digital, pin headers
for some
>>>> ??? signals, some test pads, ground connectors, monitor leds
>>>>
>>>> ??? 8) used to make double sided boards, not plated
through, designs
>>>> ??? got too complicated for me to make
>>>>
>>>> ??? 9) lots
>>>>
>>>> ??? 10) not beginner in digital, some analog, power supply
>>>>
>>>> ??? Other people will have different opinions.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ??? Harvey
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ??? On 7/12/2020 12:59 AM, davethetechman via groups.io
<> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> ??? Hi, does anyone have any personal videos of
designing with their
>>>>> ??? own personal tips and hacks?
>>>>>
>>>>> ??? Recently new to this.
>>>>>
>>>>> ??? Thanks
>>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>

Thanks Sarma....
but no recovery.... vision scrambled 19 years ago and I have not driven a car in 19 years.
But its not so bad. Everybody looks like a Picasso painting to me.
Good and bad.
Pretty girls look like monsters....? bent nose.... ears.....
BUT
ugly girls look like monsters to me..........
so everybody? looks the same to me.
On 07/27/2020 05:07 AM, MVS Sarma wrote:

Wish Rob? a stable and fast recovery.

On Mon, 27 Jul 2020, 1:52 pm MVS Sarma via groups.io <>, <mvssarma@... <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:

Wish you to recover soober Rob

Regards
Sarma? vu3zmv

On Mon, 27 Jul 2020, 1:13 pm Rob via groups.io <>,
<roomberg@... <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:

My vision is impaired.

I have something like macular degeneration messed up retinas and
everything looks crushed and twisted to me so

I need bigger, much bigger , everything .......when I tinker with
electronics.

and

all of the CAD interfaces have tiny text on racks of tools and
buttons
onscreen

and

all of the features and settings are easily trashed by me
tripping
accidentally over them

so

I step back and declare thats not my tool set and stick
"caveman" simple
... paint on the wall.....

and get the desired results.

and

I share these tidbits with you all because HOME BREW PCBS is
really at
all levels.....?? from the simple hand drawn sharpie on PCB to
the
advanced CAD

programs with detailed granularity tracking component libraries.


There is something for everybody here.

I learned how to make GERBER files last winter.

Neat stuff.

Have fun.

I am.














On 07/27/2020 03:28 AM, brane212 wrote:
> Don0t see the point.
>
> gEDA + PCB is not complicated. Just the opposite.
>
> Whatever the elarnign curve is, it affects stuff you need to
knwow
> anyway. YOu can use PCB directly, but I find it to be a pain
without
> schematic.
>
> Only slightly cryptic thing is to learn to define an element.
> BFew tidbits aside, it's not that different from drawqing a
schematic.
>
>
> Schematic is a good bookkeeping part that that you need for
> documentation and keeping the basis fro netlist ( what ought
to be
> connected with what).
>
> PCB contains stuff that you need. GIMP has no concept of
element.
> You can't just move the resistor pads in GIMP etc.
>
> Above, all GIMP can't keep you in check - shorts and breaks
are made
> easily, once your example contains anything more than one
transistor
> and couple resistors.
>
> With PCB, printing is relatively easy - just export EPS ina
importi in
> Inkscape. This way you can easily do DIY panelization -
import EPS of
> wantd layers, mirror them and arrange as you wish.
>
> Also, GIMP is raster-based. SO, to get deccent resolution, you
> probably need 1200 dpi. WHich can get really slow, once you
have
> bigger board and more layers.
>
> Really, no reason to torture yourself with GIMP for this.
>
> Don't know about KiCAD ( never liked it), but
gEDA+PCB+Inkscape is
> golden for this. Plus gerbview to check design before
sending it to
> manuifacturing.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 27. 07. 20 05:47, Rob via groups.io <> wrote:
>> Here's some tidbits to chew on for home brewing your own PCBs
>> "caveman" style.... without the aid of
>>
>> the complicated CAD....? (C)omputer (A)ided (D)esign software.
>>
>> Take this for what its worth for you.....?? I make no
claims to fame
>> here.... just massive success.. again and again and
again... for me
>> and my tinkering with building
>>
>> radios and other electronic toys from scratch without
suffering
>> through the indiginities of breadboard or loose wires or
crazy glue
>> pads failing to work then chasing tail for a week.
>>
>>
>> It always starts with a schematic.
>>
>> so.....
>>
>> I simply take a picture of the schematic and open it in
GIMP image
>> editer....?? learn here if you don't know it:

>>
>> These images came from :
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> and then simply trace all of the thin lines with a fat
black ink pen
>> tool and
>> add donut holes for all components and draw the components
in red or
>> purple
>> and move things around enough to accomodate physical parts
connections.
>> AND ALWAYS LAY PARTs DOWN.... never have resistors or
diodes standing
>> on one end.
>>
>> Laying parts down uses more space but it makes it much
easier for
>> kids and newbies to
>> succesfully build a radio.
>> AND
>> laying parts down create HUGE pathways on the copper side
of the
>> board to accomodate
>> trace routing without being screwed by tight spacing.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> and then I remove everything ... just erase all the text
and purple
>> and have toner transfer ready artwork.
>>
>>
>> This is one the the most simple examples I share because it
is a $5
>> short wave receiver
>>
>> that has been made all over the world... because it is so
simple to
>> reproduce succesfully.
>>
>> I few modifications later....?????? and final outcome was this:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 07/26/2020 10:24 PM, Charlie Hansen wrote:
>>> And then there's fun of solving a "puzzle" with the
routing of the
>>> traces, avoiding "ground loops", noisy power traces, etc
etc. I too
>>> haven't used Eagle etc, but I DO like to use a simple CAD like
>>> Micrographics Designer V3x
>>> Charlie
>>>
>>> ??? And then
>>>
>>> ??? there's all sorts of CAD programmer to help you... but
you may not
>>> ??? need CAD.
>>>
>>> ??? I have made more than 100 PCBs and I have not yet used
ANY EAGLE
>>> ??? or any other CAD program.
>>>
>>>
>>> ??? Rob
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ??? On 07/25/2020 09:30 PM, Harvey White wrote:
>>>>
>>>> ??? Nope.? Don't do videos.
>>>>
>>>> ??? Now questions:
>>>>
>>>> ??? 1) designing what?? Digital? Analog?? RF?
>>>>
>>>> ??? 2) what level of complexity?? Do you need 1 layer, 2
layer, or 4
>>>> ??? layer boards?
>>>>
>>>> ??? 3) do you intend to produce these boards yourself?
(it makes a
>>>> ??? difference in how you design them).
>>>>
>>>> ??? 4) how big are they (can make a difference in either
cost/who
>>>> ??? makes it or design/what program you use)?
>>>>
>>>> ??? 5) what program do you use?
>>>>
>>>> ??? 6) have you any experience with PC board design?
>>>>
>>>> ??? 7) what level of hardware debug do you want to put
into the
>>>> ??? boards (test points?? test pads? logic analyzer
breakouts?
>>>> ??? ground posts?)
>>>>
>>>> ??? 8) what kind of facilities do you have to make PC boards?
>>>>
>>>> ??? 9) have you done any of this before?
>>>>
>>>> ??? 10) what level (roughly) in electronics design are you
>>>> ??? comfortable with?? beginner?? what?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ??? All of these things have a bearing on *how* you
design something,
>>>> ??? what design you come up with, how many copies you'll
need before
>>>> ??? you get one that works (know that one.....), and
whether or not
>>>> ??? you can make the board yourself.
>>>>
>>>> ??? I know this may sound complicated, but answers to
some of these
>>>> ??? help others to gauge where you are in experience, and
what you
>>>> ??? need to know (IMHO, of course).
>>>>
>>>> ??? For me: (roughly)
>>>>
>>>> ??? 1) designing:? Digital,? Analog. Have done 100 pin
flatpacks.
>>>> ??? (self built), do 144 pin flatpacks when someone else
builds them).
>>>>
>>>> ??? 2) I do double sided, plated through holes, silk
screen, but
>>>> ??? that's not me making them.? Have done toner transfer,
10 mil
>>>> ??? trace, 10 mil spacing, double sided, wire stitch top
and bottom
>>>> ??? layers, tin/lead plated boards.
>>>>
>>>> ??? 3) do you intend to produce these boards yourself?
(it makes a
>>>> ??? difference in how you design them).
>>>>
>>>> ??? 4) no bigger than 100 cm * 100 cm because of the
board house
>>>> ??? limitations for cheap?
>>>>
>>>> ??? 5) EAGLE 7.7, hobby (6 x 4 inch) license, can't sell
the boards.?
>>>>
>>>> ??? 6) by this time?? a fair amount, can always learn more
>>>>
>>>> ??? 7) logic analyzer breakouts for digital, pin headers
for some
>>>> ??? signals, some test pads, ground connectors, monitor leds
>>>>
>>>> ??? 8) used to make double sided boards, not plated
through, designs
>>>> ??? got too complicated for me to make
>>>>
>>>> ??? 9) lots
>>>>
>>>> ??? 10) not beginner in digital, some analog, power supply
>>>>
>>>> ??? Other people will have different opinions.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ??? Harvey
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ??? On 7/12/2020 12:59 AM, davethetechman via groups.io
<> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> ??? Hi, does anyone have any personal videos of
designing with their
>>>>> ??? own personal tips and hacks?
>>>>>
>>>>> ??? Recently new to this.
>>>>>
>>>>> ??? Thanks
>>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>

I have Wet Macular Degeneration in one eye. Wet Macular Degeneration is a condition that results from blood vessels growing up through the eye’s epithelial layer and lifting the retina off of the epithelial layer, thus starving the retinal cells of the ability to regenerate. The condition may be controlled but not cured by injecting ?a medecine called Eyelea into to eyeball every few weeks. The medecine inhibits the growth of the blood vessels. The condition naturally gets worse, slowly, over time and is irreversible. Eventually (so I’m told) one loses one’s eyesight in the affected eye. My eyesight in the affected eye had gone from 20/25 to 20/100 over the past seven years.

Dry Macular Degeneration is a different condition for which, at present, there is no treatment.

DaveD

On Jul 27, 2020, at 05:07, MVS Sarma <mvssarma@...> wrote:

Wish Rob? a stable and fast recovery.

On Mon, 27 Jul 2020, 1:52 pm MVS Sarma via , <mvssarma=[email protected]> wrote:

Wish you to recover soober Rob

Regards

Sarma? vu3zmv

On Mon, 27 Jul 2020, 1:13 pm Rob via , <roomberg=[email protected]> wrote:

My vision is impaired.

I have something like macular degeneration messed up retinas and
everything looks crushed and twisted to me so

I need bigger, much bigger , everything .......when I tinker with
electronics.

and

all of the CAD interfaces have tiny text on racks of tools and buttons
onscreen

and

all of the features and settings are easily trashed by me tripping
accidentally over them

so

I step back and declare thats not my tool set and stick "caveman" simple
... paint on the wall.....

and get the desired results.

and

I share these tidbits with you all because HOME BREW PCBS is really at
all levels.....?? from the simple hand drawn sharpie on PCB to the
advanced CAD

programs with detailed granularity tracking component libraries.


There is something for everybody here.

I learned how to make GERBER files last winter.

Neat stuff.

Have fun.

I am.














On 07/27/2020 03:28 AM, brane212 wrote:
> Don0t see the point.
>
> gEDA + PCB is not complicated. Just the opposite.
>
> Whatever the elarnign curve is, it affects stuff you need to knwow
> anyway. YOu can use PCB directly, but I find it to be a pain without
> schematic.
>
> Only slightly cryptic thing is to learn to define an element.
> BFew tidbits aside, it's not that different from drawqing a schematic.
>
>
> Schematic is a good bookkeeping part that that you need for
> documentation and keeping the basis fro netlist ( what ought to be
> connected with what).
>
> PCB contains stuff that you need. GIMP has no concept of element.
> You can't just move the resistor pads in GIMP etc.
>
> Above, all GIMP can't keep you in check - shorts and breaks are made
> easily, once your example contains anything more than one transistor
> and couple resistors.
>
> With PCB, printing is relatively easy - just export EPS ina importi in
> Inkscape. This way you can easily do DIY panelization - import EPS of
> wantd layers, mirror them and arrange as you wish.
>
> Also, GIMP is raster-based. SO, to get deccent resolution, you
> probably need 1200 dpi. WHich can get really slow, once you have
> bigger board and more layers.
>
> Really, no reason to torture yourself with GIMP for this.
>
> Don't know about KiCAD ( never liked it), but gEDA+PCB+Inkscape is
> golden for this. Plus gerbview to check design before sending it to
> manuifacturing.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 27. 07. 20 05:47, Rob via wrote:
>> Here's some tidbits to chew on for home brewing your own PCBs
>> "caveman" style.... without the aid of
>>
>> the complicated CAD....? (C)omputer (A)ided? (D)esign software.
>>
>> Take this for what its worth for you.....?? I make no claims to fame
>> here.... just massive success.. again and again and again... for me
>> and my tinkering with building
>>
>> radios and other electronic toys from scratch without suffering
>> through the indiginities of breadboard or loose wires or crazy glue
>> pads failing to work then chasing tail for a week.
>>
>>
>> It always starts with a schematic.
>>
>> so.....
>>
>> I simply take a picture of the schematic and open it in GIMP image
>> editer....?? learn here if you don't know it:
>>
>> These images came from :
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> and then simply trace all of the thin lines with a fat black ink pen
>> tool and
>> add donut holes for all components and draw the components in red or
>> purple
>> and move things around enough to accomodate physical parts connections.
>> AND ALWAYS LAY PARTs DOWN.... never have resistors or diodes standing
>> on one end.
>>
>> Laying parts down uses more space but it makes it much easier for
>> kids and newbies to
>> succesfully build a radio.
>> AND
>> laying parts down create HUGE pathways on the copper side of the
>> board to accomodate
>> trace routing without being screwed by tight spacing.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> and then I remove everything ... just erase all the text and purple
>> and have toner transfer ready artwork.
>>
>>
>> This is one the the most simple examples I share because it is a $5
>> short wave receiver
>>
>> that has been made all over the world... because it is so simple to
>> reproduce succesfully.
>>
>> I few modifications later....?????? and final outcome was this:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 07/26/2020 10:24 PM, Charlie Hansen wrote:
>>> And then there's fun of solving a "puzzle" with the routing of the
>>> traces, avoiding "ground loops", noisy power traces, etc etc. I too
>>> haven't used Eagle etc, but I DO like to use a simple CAD like
>>> Micrographics Designer V3x
>>> Charlie
>>>
>>> ??? And then
>>>
>>> ??? there's all sorts of CAD programmer to help you... but you may not
>>> ??? need CAD.
>>>
>>> ??? I have made more than 100 PCBs and I have not yet used ANY EAGLE
>>> ??? or any other CAD program.
>>>
>>>
>>> ??? Rob
>>>
>>> ???
>>>
>>> ???
>>>
>>> ???
>>>
>>> ???
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ??? On 07/25/2020 09:30 PM, Harvey White wrote:
>>>>
>>>> ??? Nope.? Don't do videos.
>>>>
>>>> ??? Now questions:
>>>>
>>>> ??? 1) designing what?? Digital?? Analog?? RF?
>>>>
>>>> ??? 2) what level of complexity?? Do you need 1 layer, 2 layer, or 4
>>>> ??? layer boards?
>>>>
>>>> ??? 3) do you intend to produce these boards yourself? (it makes a
>>>> ??? difference in how you design them).
>>>>
>>>> ??? 4) how big are they (can make a difference in either cost/who
>>>> ??? makes it or design/what program you use)?
>>>>
>>>> ??? 5) what program do you use?
>>>>
>>>> ??? 6) have you any experience with PC board design?
>>>>
>>>> ??? 7) what level of hardware debug do you want to put into the
>>>> ??? boards (test points?? test pads?? logic analyzer breakouts?
>>>> ??? ground posts?)
>>>>
>>>> ??? 8) what kind of facilities do you have to make PC boards?
>>>>
>>>> ??? 9) have you done any of this before?
>>>>
>>>> ??? 10) what level (roughly) in electronics design are you
>>>> ??? comfortable with?? beginner?? what?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ??? All of these things have a bearing on *how* you design something,
>>>> ??? what design you come up with, how many copies you'll need before
>>>> ??? you get one that works (know that one.....), and whether or not
>>>> ??? you can make the board yourself.
>>>>
>>>> ??? I know this may sound complicated, but answers to some of these
>>>> ??? help others to gauge where you are in experience, and what you
>>>> ??? need to know (IMHO, of course).
>>>>
>>>> ??? For me: (roughly)
>>>>
>>>> ??? 1) designing:? Digital,? Analog.? Have done 100 pin flatpacks.
>>>> ??? (self built), do 144 pin flatpacks when someone else builds them).
>>>>
>>>> ??? 2) I do double sided, plated through holes, silk screen, but
>>>> ??? that's not me making them.? Have done toner transfer, 10 mil
>>>> ??? trace, 10 mil spacing, double sided, wire stitch top and bottom
>>>> ??? layers, tin/lead plated boards.
>>>>
>>>> ??? 3) do you intend to produce these boards yourself? (it makes a
>>>> ??? difference in how you design them).
>>>>
>>>> ??? 4) no bigger than 100 cm * 100 cm because of the board house
>>>> ??? limitations for cheap?
>>>>
>>>> ??? 5) EAGLE 7.7, hobby (6 x 4 inch) license, can't sell the boards.?
>>>>
>>>> ??? 6) by this time?? a fair amount, can always learn more
>>>>
>>>> ??? 7) logic analyzer breakouts for digital, pin headers for some
>>>> ??? signals, some test pads, ground connectors, monitor leds
>>>>
>>>> ??? 8) used to make double sided boards, not plated through, designs
>>>> ??? got too complicated for me to make
>>>>
>>>> ??? 9) lots
>>>>
>>>> ??? 10) not beginner in digital, some analog, power supply
>>>>
>>>> ??? Other people will have different opinions.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ??? Harvey
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ??? On 7/12/2020 12:59 AM, davethetechman via wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> ??? Hi, does anyone have any personal videos of designing with their
>>>>> ??? own personal tips and hacks?
>>>>>
>>>>> ??? Recently new to this.
>>>>>
>>>>> ??? Thanks
>>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>

Wish Rob? a stable and fast recovery.

On Mon, 27 Jul 2020, 1:52 pm MVS Sarma via , <mvssarma=[email protected]> wrote:

Wish you to recover soober Rob

Regards

Sarma? vu3zmv

On Mon, 27 Jul 2020, 1:13 pm Rob via , <roomberg=[email protected]> wrote:

My vision is impaired.

I have something like macular degeneration messed up retinas and
everything looks crushed and twisted to me so

I need bigger, much bigger , everything .......when I tinker with
electronics.

and

all of the CAD interfaces have tiny text on racks of tools and buttons
onscreen

and

all of the features and settings are easily trashed by me tripping
accidentally over them

so

I step back and declare thats not my tool set and stick "caveman" simple
... paint on the wall.....

and get the desired results.

and

I share these tidbits with you all because HOME BREW PCBS is really at
all levels.....?? from the simple hand drawn sharpie on PCB to the
advanced CAD

programs with detailed granularity tracking component libraries.


There is something for everybody here.

I learned how to make GERBER files last winter.

Neat stuff.

Have fun.

I am.














On 07/27/2020 03:28 AM, brane212 wrote:
> Don0t see the point.
>
> gEDA + PCB is not complicated. Just the opposite.
>
> Whatever the elarnign curve is, it affects stuff you need to knwow
> anyway. YOu can use PCB directly, but I find it to be a pain without
> schematic.
>
> Only slightly cryptic thing is to learn to define an element.
> BFew tidbits aside, it's not that different from drawqing a schematic.
>
>
> Schematic is a good bookkeeping part that that you need for
> documentation and keeping the basis fro netlist ( what ought to be
> connected with what).
>
> PCB contains stuff that you need. GIMP has no concept of element.
> You can't just move the resistor pads in GIMP etc.
>
> Above, all GIMP can't keep you in check - shorts and breaks are made
> easily, once your example contains anything more than one transistor
> and couple resistors.
>
> With PCB, printing is relatively easy - just export EPS ina importi in
> Inkscape. This way you can easily do DIY panelization - import EPS of
> wantd layers, mirror them and arrange as you wish.
>
> Also, GIMP is raster-based. SO, to get deccent resolution, you
> probably need 1200 dpi. WHich can get really slow, once you have
> bigger board and more layers.
>
> Really, no reason to torture yourself with GIMP for this.
>
> Don't know about KiCAD ( never liked it), but gEDA+PCB+Inkscape is
> golden for this. Plus gerbview to check design before sending it to
> manuifacturing.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 27. 07. 20 05:47, Rob via wrote:
>> Here's some tidbits to chew on for home brewing your own PCBs
>> "caveman" style.... without the aid of
>>
>> the complicated CAD....? (C)omputer (A)ided? (D)esign software.
>>
>> Take this for what its worth for you.....?? I make no claims to fame
>> here.... just massive success.. again and again and again... for me
>> and my tinkering with building
>>
>> radios and other electronic toys from scratch without suffering
>> through the indiginities of breadboard or loose wires or crazy glue
>> pads failing to work then chasing tail for a week.
>>
>>
>> It always starts with a schematic.
>>
>> so.....
>>
>> I simply take a picture of the schematic and open it in GIMP image
>> editer....?? learn here if you don't know it:
>>
>> These images came from :
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> and then simply trace all of the thin lines with a fat black ink pen
>> tool and
>> add donut holes for all components and draw the components in red or
>> purple
>> and move things around enough to accomodate physical parts connections.
>> AND ALWAYS LAY PARTs DOWN.... never have resistors or diodes standing
>> on one end.
>>
>> Laying parts down uses more space but it makes it much easier for
>> kids and newbies to
>> succesfully build a radio.
>> AND
>> laying parts down create HUGE pathways on the copper side of the
>> board to accomodate
>> trace routing without being screwed by tight spacing.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> and then I remove everything ... just erase all the text and purple
>> and have toner transfer ready artwork.
>>
>>
>> This is one the the most simple examples I share because it is a $5
>> short wave receiver
>>
>> that has been made all over the world... because it is so simple to
>> reproduce succesfully.
>>
>> I few modifications later....?????? and final outcome was this:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 07/26/2020 10:24 PM, Charlie Hansen wrote:
>>> And then there's fun of solving a "puzzle" with the routing of the
>>> traces, avoiding "ground loops", noisy power traces, etc etc. I too
>>> haven't used Eagle etc, but I DO like to use a simple CAD like
>>> Micrographics Designer V3x
>>> Charlie
>>>
>>> ??? And then
>>>
>>> ??? there's all sorts of CAD programmer to help you... but you may not
>>> ??? need CAD.
>>>
>>> ??? I have made more than 100 PCBs and I have not yet used ANY EAGLE
>>> ??? or any other CAD program.
>>>
>>>
>>> ??? Rob
>>>
>>> ???
>>>
>>> ???
>>>
>>> ???
>>>
>>> ???
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ??? On 07/25/2020 09:30 PM, Harvey White wrote:
>>>>
>>>> ??? Nope.? Don't do videos.
>>>>
>>>> ??? Now questions:
>>>>
>>>> ??? 1) designing what?? Digital?? Analog?? RF?
>>>>
>>>> ??? 2) what level of complexity?? Do you need 1 layer, 2 layer, or 4
>>>> ??? layer boards?
>>>>
>>>> ??? 3) do you intend to produce these boards yourself? (it makes a
>>>> ??? difference in how you design them).
>>>>
>>>> ??? 4) how big are they (can make a difference in either cost/who
>>>> ??? makes it or design/what program you use)?
>>>>
>>>> ??? 5) what program do you use?
>>>>
>>>> ??? 6) have you any experience with PC board design?
>>>>
>>>> ??? 7) what level of hardware debug do you want to put into the
>>>> ??? boards (test points?? test pads?? logic analyzer breakouts?
>>>> ??? ground posts?)
>>>>
>>>> ??? 8) what kind of facilities do you have to make PC boards?
>>>>
>>>> ??? 9) have you done any of this before?
>>>>
>>>> ??? 10) what level (roughly) in electronics design are you
>>>> ??? comfortable with?? beginner?? what?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ??? All of these things have a bearing on *how* you design something,
>>>> ??? what design you come up with, how many copies you'll need before
>>>> ??? you get one that works (know that one.....), and whether or not
>>>> ??? you can make the board yourself.
>>>>
>>>> ??? I know this may sound complicated, but answers to some of these
>>>> ??? help others to gauge where you are in experience, and what you
>>>> ??? need to know (IMHO, of course).
>>>>
>>>> ??? For me: (roughly)
>>>>
>>>> ??? 1) designing:? Digital,? Analog.? Have done 100 pin flatpacks.
>>>> ??? (self built), do 144 pin flatpacks when someone else builds them).
>>>>
>>>> ??? 2) I do double sided, plated through holes, silk screen, but
>>>> ??? that's not me making them.? Have done toner transfer, 10 mil
>>>> ??? trace, 10 mil spacing, double sided, wire stitch top and bottom
>>>> ??? layers, tin/lead plated boards.
>>>>
>>>> ??? 3) do you intend to produce these boards yourself? (it makes a
>>>> ??? difference in how you design them).
>>>>
>>>> ??? 4) no bigger than 100 cm * 100 cm because of the board house
>>>> ??? limitations for cheap?
>>>>
>>>> ??? 5) EAGLE 7.7, hobby (6 x 4 inch) license, can't sell the boards.?
>>>>
>>>> ??? 6) by this time?? a fair amount, can always learn more
>>>>
>>>> ??? 7) logic analyzer breakouts for digital, pin headers for some
>>>> ??? signals, some test pads, ground connectors, monitor leds
>>>>
>>>> ??? 8) used to make double sided boards, not plated through, designs
>>>> ??? got too complicated for me to make
>>>>
>>>> ??? 9) lots
>>>>
>>>> ??? 10) not beginner in digital, some analog, power supply
>>>>
>>>> ??? Other people will have different opinions.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ??? Harvey
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ??? On 7/12/2020 12:59 AM, davethetechman via wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> ??? Hi, does anyone have any personal videos of designing with their
>>>>> ??? own personal tips and hacks?
>>>>>
>>>>> ??? Recently new to this.
>>>>>
>>>>> ??? Thanks
>>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>

Wish Rob? a stable and fast recovery.

On Mon, 27 Jul 2020, 1:52 pm MVS Sarma via , <mvssarma=[email protected]> wrote:

Wish you to recover soober Rob

Regards

Sarma? vu3zmv

On Mon, 27 Jul 2020, 1:13 pm Rob via , <roomberg=[email protected]> wrote:

My vision is impaired.

I have something like macular degeneration messed up retinas and
everything looks crushed and twisted to me so

I need bigger, much bigger , everything .......when I tinker with
electronics.

and

all of the CAD interfaces have tiny text on racks of tools and buttons
onscreen

and

all of the features and settings are easily trashed by me tripping
accidentally over them

so

I step back and declare thats not my tool set and stick "caveman" simple
... paint on the wall.....

and get the desired results.

and

I share these tidbits with you all because HOME BREW PCBS is really at
all levels.....?? from the simple hand drawn sharpie on PCB to the
advanced CAD

programs with detailed granularity tracking component libraries.


There is something for everybody here.

I learned how to make GERBER files last winter.

Neat stuff.

Have fun.

I am.














On 07/27/2020 03:28 AM, brane212 wrote:
> Don0t see the point.
>
> gEDA + PCB is not complicated. Just the opposite.
>
> Whatever the elarnign curve is, it affects stuff you need to knwow
> anyway. YOu can use PCB directly, but I find it to be a pain without
> schematic.
>
> Only slightly cryptic thing is to learn to define an element.
> BFew tidbits aside, it's not that different from drawqing a schematic.
>
>
> Schematic is a good bookkeeping part that that you need for
> documentation and keeping the basis fro netlist ( what ought to be
> connected with what).
>
> PCB contains stuff that you need. GIMP has no concept of element.
> You can't just move the resistor pads in GIMP etc.
>
> Above, all GIMP can't keep you in check - shorts and breaks are made
> easily, once your example contains anything more than one transistor
> and couple resistors.
>
> With PCB, printing is relatively easy - just export EPS ina importi in
> Inkscape. This way you can easily do DIY panelization - import EPS of
> wantd layers, mirror them and arrange as you wish.
>
> Also, GIMP is raster-based. SO, to get deccent resolution, you
> probably need 1200 dpi. WHich can get really slow, once you have
> bigger board and more layers.
>
> Really, no reason to torture yourself with GIMP for this.
>
> Don't know about KiCAD ( never liked it), but gEDA+PCB+Inkscape is
> golden for this. Plus gerbview to check design before sending it to
> manuifacturing.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 27. 07. 20 05:47, Rob via wrote:
>> Here's some tidbits to chew on for home brewing your own PCBs
>> "caveman" style.... without the aid of
>>
>> the complicated CAD....? (C)omputer (A)ided? (D)esign software.
>>
>> Take this for what its worth for you.....?? I make no claims to fame
>> here.... just massive success.. again and again and again... for me
>> and my tinkering with building
>>
>> radios and other electronic toys from scratch without suffering
>> through the indiginities of breadboard or loose wires or crazy glue
>> pads failing to work then chasing tail for a week.
>>
>>
>> It always starts with a schematic.
>>
>> so.....
>>
>> I simply take a picture of the schematic and open it in GIMP image
>> editer....?? learn here if you don't know it:
>>
>> These images came from :
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> and then simply trace all of the thin lines with a fat black ink pen
>> tool and
>> add donut holes for all components and draw the components in red or
>> purple
>> and move things around enough to accomodate physical parts connections.
>> AND ALWAYS LAY PARTs DOWN.... never have resistors or diodes standing
>> on one end.
>>
>> Laying parts down uses more space but it makes it much easier for
>> kids and newbies to
>> succesfully build a radio.
>> AND
>> laying parts down create HUGE pathways on the copper side of the
>> board to accomodate
>> trace routing without being screwed by tight spacing.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> and then I remove everything ... just erase all the text and purple
>> and have toner transfer ready artwork.
>>
>>
>> This is one the the most simple examples I share because it is a $5
>> short wave receiver
>>
>> that has been made all over the world... because it is so simple to
>> reproduce succesfully.
>>
>> I few modifications later....?????? and final outcome was this:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 07/26/2020 10:24 PM, Charlie Hansen wrote:
>>> And then there's fun of solving a "puzzle" with the routing of the
>>> traces, avoiding "ground loops", noisy power traces, etc etc. I too
>>> haven't used Eagle etc, but I DO like to use a simple CAD like
>>> Micrographics Designer V3x
>>> Charlie
>>>
>>> ??? And then
>>>
>>> ??? there's all sorts of CAD programmer to help you... but you may not
>>> ??? need CAD.
>>>
>>> ??? I have made more than 100 PCBs and I have not yet used ANY EAGLE
>>> ??? or any other CAD program.
>>>
>>>
>>> ??? Rob
>>>
>>> ???
>>>
>>> ???
>>>
>>> ???
>>>
>>> ???
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ??? On 07/25/2020 09:30 PM, Harvey White wrote:
>>>>
>>>> ??? Nope.? Don't do videos.
>>>>
>>>> ??? Now questions:
>>>>
>>>> ??? 1) designing what?? Digital?? Analog?? RF?
>>>>
>>>> ??? 2) what level of complexity?? Do you need 1 layer, 2 layer, or 4
>>>> ??? layer boards?
>>>>
>>>> ??? 3) do you intend to produce these boards yourself? (it makes a
>>>> ??? difference in how you design them).
>>>>
>>>> ??? 4) how big are they (can make a difference in either cost/who
>>>> ??? makes it or design/what program you use)?
>>>>
>>>> ??? 5) what program do you use?
>>>>
>>>> ??? 6) have you any experience with PC board design?
>>>>
>>>> ??? 7) what level of hardware debug do you want to put into the
>>>> ??? boards (test points?? test pads?? logic analyzer breakouts?
>>>> ??? ground posts?)
>>>>
>>>> ??? 8) what kind of facilities do you have to make PC boards?
>>>>
>>>> ??? 9) have you done any of this before?
>>>>
>>>> ??? 10) what level (roughly) in electronics design are you
>>>> ??? comfortable with?? beginner?? what?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ??? All of these things have a bearing on *how* you design something,
>>>> ??? what design you come up with, how many copies you'll need before
>>>> ??? you get one that works (know that one.....), and whether or not
>>>> ??? you can make the board yourself.
>>>>
>>>> ??? I know this may sound complicated, but answers to some of these
>>>> ??? help others to gauge where you are in experience, and what you
>>>> ??? need to know (IMHO, of course).
>>>>
>>>> ??? For me: (roughly)
>>>>
>>>> ??? 1) designing:? Digital,? Analog.? Have done 100 pin flatpacks.
>>>> ??? (self built), do 144 pin flatpacks when someone else builds them).
>>>>
>>>> ??? 2) I do double sided, plated through holes, silk screen, but
>>>> ??? that's not me making them.? Have done toner transfer, 10 mil
>>>> ??? trace, 10 mil spacing, double sided, wire stitch top and bottom
>>>> ??? layers, tin/lead plated boards.
>>>>
>>>> ??? 3) do you intend to produce these boards yourself? (it makes a
>>>> ??? difference in how you design them).
>>>>
>>>> ??? 4) no bigger than 100 cm * 100 cm because of the board house
>>>> ??? limitations for cheap?
>>>>
>>>> ??? 5) EAGLE 7.7, hobby (6 x 4 inch) license, can't sell the boards.?
>>>>
>>>> ??? 6) by this time?? a fair amount, can always learn more
>>>>
>>>> ??? 7) logic analyzer breakouts for digital, pin headers for some
>>>> ??? signals, some test pads, ground connectors, monitor leds
>>>>
>>>> ??? 8) used to make double sided boards, not plated through, designs
>>>> ??? got too complicated for me to make
>>>>
>>>> ??? 9) lots
>>>>
>>>> ??? 10) not beginner in digital, some analog, power supply
>>>>
>>>> ??? Other people will have different opinions.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ??? Harvey
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ??? On 7/12/2020 12:59 AM, davethetechman via wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> ??? Hi, does anyone have any personal videos of designing with their
>>>>> ??? own personal tips and hacks?
>>>>>
>>>>> ??? Recently new to this.
>>>>>
>>>>> ??? Thanks
>>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>

My vision is impaired.
I have something like macular degeneration messed up retinas and everything looks crushed and twisted to me so
I need bigger, much bigger , everything .......when I tinker with electronics.
and
all of the CAD interfaces have tiny text on racks of tools and buttons onscreen
and
all of the features and settings are easily trashed by me tripping accidentally over them
so
I step back and declare thats not my tool set and stick "caveman" simple ... paint on the wall.....
and get the desired results.
and
I share these tidbits with you all because HOME BREW PCBS is really at all levels.....?? from the simple hand drawn sharpie on PCB to the advanced CAD
programs with detailed granularity tracking component libraries.
There is something for everybody here.
I learned how to make GERBER files last winter.
Neat stuff.
Have fun.
I am.
On 07/27/2020 03:28 AM, brane212 wrote:

Don0t see the point.

gEDA + PCB is not complicated. Just the opposite.

Whatever the elarnign curve is, it affects stuff you need to knwow anyway. YOu can use PCB directly, but I find it to be a pain without schematic.

Only slightly cryptic thing is to learn to define an element.
BFew tidbits aside, it's not that different from drawqing a schematic.


Schematic is a good bookkeeping part that that you need for documentation and keeping the basis fro netlist ( what ought to be connected with what).

PCB contains stuff that you need. GIMP has no concept of element.
You can't just move the resistor pads in GIMP etc.

Above, all GIMP can't keep you in check - shorts and breaks are made easily, once your example contains anything more than one transistor and couple resistors.

With PCB, printing is relatively easy - just export EPS ina importi in Inkscape. This way you can easily do DIY panelization - import EPS of wantd layers, mirror them and arrange as you wish.

Also, GIMP is raster-based. SO, to get deccent resolution, you probably need 1200 dpi. WHich can get really slow, once you have bigger board and more layers.

Really, no reason to torture yourself with GIMP for this.

Don't know about KiCAD ( never liked it), but gEDA+PCB+Inkscape is golden for this. Plus gerbview to check design before sending it to manuifacturing.







On 27. 07. 20 05:47, Rob via groups.io wrote:

Here's some tidbits to chew on for home brewing your own PCBs "caveman" style.... without the aid of

the complicated CAD....? (C)omputer (A)ided? (D)esign software.

Take this for what its worth for you.....?? I make no claims to fame here.... just massive success.. again and again and again... for me and my tinkering with building

radios and other electronic toys from scratch without suffering through the indiginities of breadboard or loose wires or crazy glue pads failing to work then chasing tail for a week.


It always starts with a schematic.

so.....

I simply take a picture of the schematic and open it in GIMP image editer....?? learn here if you don't know it:

These images came from :




and then simply trace all of the thin lines with a fat black ink pen tool and
add donut holes for all components and draw the components in red or purple
and move things around enough to accomodate physical parts connections.
AND ALWAYS LAY PARTs DOWN.... never have resistors or diodes standing on one end.

Laying parts down uses more space but it makes it much easier for kids and newbies to
succesfully build a radio.
AND
laying parts down create HUGE pathways on the copper side of the board to accomodate
trace routing without being screwed by tight spacing.







and then I remove everything ... just erase all the text and purple and have toner transfer ready artwork.


This is one the the most simple examples I share because it is a $5 short wave receiver

that has been made all over the world... because it is so simple to reproduce succesfully.

I few modifications later....?????? and final outcome was this:








On 07/26/2020 10:24 PM, Charlie Hansen wrote:

And then there's fun of solving a "puzzle" with the routing of the
traces, avoiding "ground loops", noisy power traces, etc etc. I too
haven't used Eagle etc, but I DO like to use a simple CAD like
Micrographics Designer V3x
Charlie

??? And then

??? there's all sorts of CAD programmer to help you... but you may not
??? need CAD.

??? I have made more than 100 PCBs and I have not yet used ANY EAGLE
??? or any other CAD program.


??? Rob

???

???

???

???









??? On 07/25/2020 09:30 PM, Harvey White wrote:

??? Nope.? Don't do videos.

??? Now questions:

??? 1) designing what?? Digital?? Analog?? RF?

??? 2) what level of complexity?? Do you need 1 layer, 2 layer, or 4
??? layer boards?

??? 3) do you intend to produce these boards yourself? (it makes a
??? difference in how you design them).

??? 4) how big are they (can make a difference in either cost/who
??? makes it or design/what program you use)?

??? 5) what program do you use?

??? 6) have you any experience with PC board design?

??? 7) what level of hardware debug do you want to put into the
??? boards (test points?? test pads?? logic analyzer breakouts?
??? ground posts?)

??? 8) what kind of facilities do you have to make PC boards?

??? 9) have you done any of this before?

??? 10) what level (roughly) in electronics design are you
??? comfortable with?? beginner?? what?


??? All of these things have a bearing on *how* you design something,
??? what design you come up with, how many copies you'll need before
??? you get one that works (know that one.....), and whether or not
??? you can make the board yourself.

??? I know this may sound complicated, but answers to some of these
??? help others to gauge where you are in experience, and what you
??? need to know (IMHO, of course).

??? For me: (roughly)

??? 1) designing:? Digital,? Analog.? Have done 100 pin flatpacks.
??? (self built), do 144 pin flatpacks when someone else builds them).

??? 2) I do double sided, plated through holes, silk screen, but
??? that's not me making them.? Have done toner transfer, 10 mil
??? trace, 10 mil spacing, double sided, wire stitch top and bottom
??? layers, tin/lead plated boards.

??? 3) do you intend to produce these boards yourself? (it makes a
??? difference in how you design them).

??? 4) no bigger than 100 cm * 100 cm because of the board house
??? limitations for cheap?

??? 5) EAGLE 7.7, hobby (6 x 4 inch) license, can't sell the boards.?

??? 6) by this time?? a fair amount, can always learn more

??? 7) logic analyzer breakouts for digital, pin headers for some
??? signals, some test pads, ground connectors, monitor leds

??? 8) used to make double sided boards, not plated through, designs
??? got too complicated for me to make

??? 9) lots

??? 10) not beginner in digital, some analog, power supply

??? Other people will have different opinions.


??? Harvey


??? On 7/12/2020 12:59 AM, davethetechman via groups.io wrote:

??? Hi, does anyone have any personal videos of designing with their
??? own personal tips and hacks?

??? Recently new to this.

??? Thanks

Don0t see the point.

gEDA + PCB is not complicated. Just the opposite.

Whatever the elarnign curve is, it affects stuff you need to knwow anyway. YOu can use PCB directly, but I find it to be a pain without schematic.

Only slightly cryptic thing is to learn to define an element.
BFew tidbits aside, it's not that different from drawqing a schematic.


Schematic is a good bookkeeping part that that you need for documentation and keeping the basis fro netlist ( what ought to be connected with what).

PCB contains stuff that you need. GIMP has no concept of element.
You can't just move the resistor pads in GIMP etc.

Above, all GIMP can't keep you in check - shorts and breaks are made easily, once your example contains anything more than one transistor and couple resistors.

With PCB, printing is relatively easy - just export EPS ina importi in Inkscape. This way you can easily do DIY panelization - import EPS of wantd layers, mirror them and arrange as you wish.

Also, GIMP is raster-based. SO, to get deccent resolution, you probably need 1200 dpi. WHich can get really slow, once you have bigger board and more layers.

Really, no reason to torture yourself with GIMP for this.

Don't know about KiCAD ( never liked it), but gEDA+PCB+Inkscape is golden for this. Plus gerbview to check design before sending it to manuifacturing.







On 27. 07. 20 05:47, Rob via groups.io wrote:

Here's some tidbits to chew on for home brewing your own PCBs "caveman" style.... without the aid of

the complicated CAD....? (C)omputer (A)ided? (D)esign software.

Take this for what its worth for you.....?? I make no claims to fame here.... just massive success.. again and again and again... for me and my tinkering with building

radios and other electronic toys from scratch without suffering through the indiginities of breadboard or loose wires or crazy glue pads failing to work then chasing tail for a week.


It always starts with a schematic.

so.....

I simply take a picture of the schematic and open it in GIMP image editer....?? learn here if you don't know it:

These images came from :




and then simply trace all of the thin lines with a fat black ink pen tool and
add donut holes for all components and draw the components in red or purple
and move things around enough to accomodate physical parts connections.
AND ALWAYS LAY PARTs DOWN.... never have resistors or diodes standing on one end.

Laying parts down uses more space but it makes it much easier for kids and newbies to
succesfully build a radio.
AND
laying parts down create HUGE pathways on the copper side of the board to accomodate
trace routing without being screwed by tight spacing.







and then I remove everything ... just erase all the text and purple and have toner transfer ready artwork.


This is one the the most simple examples I share because it is a $5 short wave receiver

that has been made all over the world... because it is so simple to reproduce succesfully.

I few modifications later....?????? and final outcome was this:








On 07/26/2020 10:24 PM, Charlie Hansen wrote:

And then there's fun of solving a "puzzle" with the routing of the
traces, avoiding "ground loops", noisy power traces, etc etc. I too
haven't used Eagle etc, but I DO like to use a simple CAD like
Micrographics Designer V3x
Charlie

??? And then

??? there's all sorts of CAD programmer to help you... but you may not
??? need CAD.

??? I have made more than 100 PCBs and I have not yet used ANY EAGLE
??? or any other CAD program.


??? Rob

???

???

???

???









??? On 07/25/2020 09:30 PM, Harvey White wrote:

??? Nope.? Don't do videos.

??? Now questions:

??? 1) designing what?? Digital?? Analog?? RF?

??? 2) what level of complexity?? Do you need 1 layer, 2 layer, or 4
??? layer boards?

??? 3) do you intend to produce these boards yourself? (it makes a
??? difference in how you design them).

??? 4) how big are they (can make a difference in either cost/who
??? makes it or design/what program you use)?

??? 5) what program do you use?

??? 6) have you any experience with PC board design?

??? 7) what level of hardware debug do you want to put into the
??? boards (test points?? test pads?? logic analyzer breakouts?
??? ground posts?)

??? 8) what kind of facilities do you have to make PC boards?

??? 9) have you done any of this before?

??? 10) what level (roughly) in electronics design are you
??? comfortable with?? beginner?? what?


??? All of these things have a bearing on *how* you design something,
??? what design you come up with, how many copies you'll need before
??? you get one that works (know that one.....), and whether or not
??? you can make the board yourself.

??? I know this may sound complicated, but answers to some of these
??? help others to gauge where you are in experience, and what you
??? need to know (IMHO, of course).

??? For me: (roughly)

??? 1) designing:? Digital,? Analog.? Have done 100 pin flatpacks.
??? (self built), do 144 pin flatpacks when someone else builds them).

??? 2) I do double sided, plated through holes, silk screen, but
??? that's not me making them.? Have done toner transfer, 10 mil
??? trace, 10 mil spacing, double sided, wire stitch top and bottom
??? layers, tin/lead plated boards.

??? 3) do you intend to produce these boards yourself? (it makes a
??? difference in how you design them).

??? 4) no bigger than 100 cm * 100 cm because of the board house
??? limitations for cheap?

??? 5) EAGLE 7.7, hobby (6 x 4 inch) license, can't sell the boards.?

??? 6) by this time?? a fair amount, can always learn more

??? 7) logic analyzer breakouts for digital, pin headers for some
??? signals, some test pads, ground connectors, monitor leds

??? 8) used to make double sided boards, not plated through, designs
??? got too complicated for me to make

??? 9) lots

??? 10) not beginner in digital, some analog, power supply

??? Other people will have different opinions.


??? Harvey


??? On 7/12/2020 12:59 AM, davethetechman via groups.io wrote:

??? Hi, does anyone have any personal videos of designing with their
??? own personal tips and hacks?

??? Recently new to this.

??? Thanks

Here's some tidbits to chew on for home brewing your own PCBs "caveman" style.... without the aid of
the complicated CAD....? (C)omputer (A)ided? (D)esign ? software.
Take this for what its worth for you.....?? I make no claims to fame here.... just massive success.. again and again and again... for me and my tinkering with building
radios and other electronic toys from scratch without suffering through the indiginities of breadboard or loose wires or crazy glue pads failing to work then chasing tail for a week.
It always starts with a schematic.
so.....
I simply take a picture of the schematic and open it in GIMP image editer....?? learn here if you don't know it:
These images came from :
and then simply trace all of the thin lines with a fat black ink pen tool and
add donut holes for all components and draw the components in red or purple
and move things around enough to accomodate physical parts connections.
AND ALWAYS LAY PARTs DOWN.... never have resistors or diodes standing on one end.
Laying parts down uses more space but it makes it much easier for kids and newbies to
succesfully build a radio.
AND
laying parts down create HUGE pathways on the copper side of the board to accomodate
trace routing without being screwed by tight spacing.
and then I remove everything ... just erase all the text and purple and have toner transfer ready artwork.
This is one the the most simple examples I share because it is a $5 short wave receiver
that has been made all over the world... because it is so simple to reproduce succesfully.
I few modifications later....?????? and final outcome was this:
On 07/26/2020 10:24 PM, Charlie Hansen wrote:

And then there's fun of solving a "puzzle" with the routing of the
traces, avoiding "ground loops", noisy power traces, etc etc.? I too
haven't used Eagle etc, but I DO like to use a simple CAD like
Micrographics Designer V3x
Charlie

And then

there's all sorts of CAD programmer to help you... but you may not
need CAD.

I have made more than 100 PCBs and I have not yet used ANY EAGLE
or any other CAD program.


Rob

















On 07/25/2020 09:30 PM, Harvey White wrote:

Nope.? Don't do videos.

Now questions:

1) designing what?? Digital?? Analog?? RF?

2) what level of complexity?? Do you need 1 layer, 2 layer, or 4
layer boards?

3) do you intend to produce these boards yourself? (it makes a
difference in how you design them).

4) how big are they (can make a difference in either cost/who
makes it or design/what program you use)?

5) what program do you use?

6) have you any experience with PC board design?

7) what level of hardware debug do you want to put into the
boards (test points?? test pads?? logic analyzer breakouts?
ground posts?)

8) what kind of facilities do you have to make PC boards?

9) have you done any of this before?

10) what level (roughly) in electronics design are you
comfortable with?? beginner?? what?


All of these things have a bearing on *how* you design something,
what design you come up with, how many copies you'll need before
you get one that works (know that one.....), and whether or not
you can make the board yourself.

I know this may sound complicated, but answers to some of these
help others to gauge where you are in experience, and what you
need to know (IMHO, of course).

For me: (roughly)

1) designing:? Digital,? Analog.? Have done 100 pin flatpacks.
(self built), do 144 pin flatpacks when someone else builds them).

2) I do double sided, plated through holes, silk screen, but
that's not me making them.? Have done toner transfer, 10 mil
trace, 10 mil spacing, double sided, wire stitch top and bottom
layers, tin/lead plated boards.

3) do you intend to produce these boards yourself? (it makes a
difference in how you design them).

4) no bigger than 100 cm * 100 cm because of the board house
limitations for cheap?

5) EAGLE 7.7, hobby (6 x 4 inch) license, can't sell the boards.?

6) by this time?? a fair amount, can always learn more

7) logic analyzer breakouts for digital, pin headers for some
signals, some test pads, ground connectors, monitor leds

8) used to make double sided boards, not plated through, designs
got too complicated for me to make

9) lots

10) not beginner in digital, some analog, power supply

Other people will have different opinions.


Harvey


On 7/12/2020 12:59 AM, davethetechman via groups.io wrote:

Hi, does anyone have any personal videos of designing with their
own personal tips and hacks?

Recently new to this.

Thanks

And then there's fun of solving a "puzzle" with the routing of the

traces, avoiding "ground loops", noisy power traces, etc etc.? I too

haven't used Eagle etc, but I DO like to use a simple CAD like

Micrographics Designer V3x

?

Charlie

And then

there's all sorts of CAD programmer to help you... but you may not need CAD.

I have made more than 100 PCBs and I have not yet used ANY EAGLE or any other CAD program.

Rob

On 07/25/2020 09:30 PM, Harvey White wrote:

Nope.? Don't do videos.

Now questions:

1) designing what?? Digital?? Analog?? RF??

2) what level of complexity?? Do you need 1 layer, 2 layer, or 4 layer boards?

3) do you intend to produce these boards yourself? (it makes a difference in how you design them).

4) how big are they (can make a difference in either cost/who makes it or design/what program you use)?

5) what program do you use?

6) have you any experience with PC board design?

7) what level of hardware debug do you want to put into the boards (test points?? test pads?? logic analyzer breakouts?? ground posts?)

8) what kind of facilities do you have to make PC boards?

9) have you done any of this before?

10) what level (roughly) in electronics design are you comfortable with?? beginner?? what?

All of these things have a bearing on *how* you design something, what design you come up with, how many copies you'll need before you get one that works (know that one.....), and whether or not you can make the board yourself.

I know this may sound complicated, but answers to some of these help others to gauge where you are in experience, and what you need to know (IMHO, of course).

For me: (roughly)

1) designing:? Digital,? Analog.? Have done 100 pin flatpacks. (self built), do 144 pin flatpacks when someone else builds them).

2) I do double sided, plated through holes, silk screen, but that's not me making them.? Have done toner transfer, 10 mil trace, 10 mil spacing, double sided, wire stitch top and bottom layers, tin/lead plated boards.

3) do you intend to produce these boards yourself? (it makes a difference in how you design them).

4) no bigger than 100 cm * 100 cm because of the board house limitations for cheap?

5) EAGLE 7.7, hobby (6 x 4 inch) license, can't sell the boards.?

6) by this time?? a fair amount, can always learn more

7) logic analyzer breakouts for digital, pin headers for some signals, some test pads, ground connectors, monitor leds

8) used to make double sided boards, not plated through, designs got too complicated for me to make

9) lots

10) not beginner in digital, some analog, power supply

Other people will have different opinions.

Harvey

On 7/12/2020 12:59 AM, davethetechman via groups.io wrote:

Hi, does anyone have any personal videos of designing with their own personal tips and hacks?

Recently new to this.

Thanks

?

?