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--- Brian Pitt <bfp@...> wrote:

instead of transfers from laser printer to copper.
how about just buying a thin copper sheet say 3mil

or so.

then run the copper through the laser printer and

print your art work.

just tested this and it dosent work so well

I used 'Slug & Snail' tape its an adhesive backed
copper foil
sold in the garden dept at some stores (Seattle
area)
placed a small strip on a sheet of regular paper and
ran a
test page on an HP laserjet 1200 (nice printer for
toner transfers BTW)

got some of the letters,but many dropouts and the
toner lifted off onto
the rolls and re-deposited itself further down the
page (smear)
a second test page without the tape came
out clean and sharp ,so no damage done :-)

Very brave, foolish, or got an old cheap laser
printer. ;')

Foreseeable, I suppose, as the fuser roller is only
sized to heat up at most a thick sheet of paper, and
paper has very little heat capacity so it doesn't take
much to heat it to 400F. Copper, on the other hand,
takes a lot to heat up. Think about how long you have
to hold the iron or heat press on the board, and some
recommend preheating the board. I can only send thin
boards through my non-modified laminator.

I suspect my friend's laser printer directly on PCB
worked because it was very old and likely overpowered.

Steve Greenfield

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Hi to the list!

I usually hang out at the CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO list, but as I have been
working towards using a CNC to "etch" a board, I thought I'd post a few
comments here!

Not that I'm anti-chemical (I've etched a few boards before), but I'm
quite taken up with the CNC approach.

I'd like to mention Eagle, which has a PCB layout program, it can
generate the outline traces with an available script.



I'm even working on generating outlines myself from Gerber files.

Alan KM6VV

Hi Alan -

We meet again ;-)

I will be interested to hear how you get on - strikes me that generating an outline from Gerber is potentially non-trivial. Would love to make use of any results you generate though!

Am also looking at the possibility of using DXF track layout output & importing that into Dolphin, then treating the tracks as a series of "islands" for an area clear. Might just work, depending on how smart Dolphin proves to be, but doing it that way may prove rather (mill) time consuming compared with the outline approach. Waiting for the CD to arrive... <sound of drumming fingers...>

Regards,
Tony

Maybe some thin heat resistant tape over the edges to
protect the drum. Is that 1/4 Oz board from Digikey?

Look for printers that say something like "true
straight-through paper path".

Or dig through the piles of laser printers showing up
now in thrift stores and just start hacking.

Steve

PS I'm hijacking this discussion to the Homebrew PCBs
list!



--- Rick Talbert <rixtalbert@...> wrote:

Dear List

I made a post about a board that is 1/4 OZ. copper a
while back . It is .031
inches thick. To thick to go thru the Laser though!
But , for some reason
,,,, like protecting the copper on the FR-104 grade
board ,there is a super
thin layer of copper that ya peel off before using.
This is the stuff you
might like. The sheets come in 8-1/2 by 11".
hate to see one of these hang up though!
And ironing it on the fiberglass is a great idea,,
but would the toner stay
on the printed copper?

Who Knows,,

RIX


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-picbasic-l@...
[mailto:owner-picbasic-l@...]On Behalf Of
victor Faria
Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 7:06 PM
To: picbasic-l@...
Subject: Re: PICBASIC-L direct PCB board printing


HI,Jessey
I don't think that there is anything to modify!
because I'm sure you can run card stock through a
laser printer so I think
that a thin sheet of copper would also run
through.(I think)
the only problem that I see is would the copper
being a conductor do damage
to the laser?
but now I'm thinking are there not fancy stationary
out there with gold and
silver colors,(shinny) and wouldn't this have the
same effect on the laser?
I'm just thinking out aloud.
any thoughts????
regards
victor
----- Original Message -----
From: "jessey Montgomery"
<jessey_montgomery@...>
To: <picbasic-l@...>
Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 7:47 PM
Subject: Re: PICBASIC-L direct PCB board printing


Hello Victor, I am presently shoping for a laser
printer and before I read
about the comments made to the picbasic group on the
subject I was concerned
about the dots per square inch of the printer (dpi)
or resolution. I've
always printed out on regular paper (using a desk
jet printer) then taken
the page to a printing shop to copy the art work on
to a transparency and
have had varying results with different shops, I
always ask to have it
copied with a laser photo copier or printer. I've
never asked the shops what
dpi their copiers were. I've always used Avery Laser
Transparencies as I
heard they were the best for circuit boards, any
comments from others as to
which ones are the best? The laser printers on the
market are 600 dpi for
the cheapest ones and 1200 dpi for the more
expensive ones. Does anyone here
know what dpi is best and will a 600 dpi do the job
ok?

Now you've sparked my interest about modifying a
laser printer to print
directly on to a circuit board or to use a thin
copper sheet as you would
the paper. Are there any more people here that know
anything more about this
subject? I would like to try something a little
innovated even if I have to
modify the new printer I buy. Thanks.......Jessey
----- Original Message -----
From: "victor Faria" <victorf@...>
To: <picbasic-l@...>
Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 1:51 PM
Subject: Re: PICBASIC-L direct PCB board printing


Rudie,were almost on the same page here!!!
what I mean is copper sheet.
print the sheet in the laser printer like you would
a sheet of paper.
then laminate the copper to the fiberglass board.
after lamination is complete go ahead and etch.
am I making any sense???
I would try it But I don't have a laser printer.
now does anyone know if the printer would print on
the copper sheet???
people talk about 1oz copper how many mil would
this be?
thanks
regards
Victor Faria
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rudie" <rudie@...>
To: <picbasic-l@...>
Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 10:41 AM
Subject: Re: PICBASIC-L direct PCB board printing


Have been toying with the same idea. I found "Copper
foil" at an art shop -
10x10cm very thin foil sheets. Haven't tried it on
the printer yet.

1Once through the printer, I was contemplating
electroplating it - which
will increase the track thickness. The tracks should
build up between the
toner. A quick brush with some etch resist on the
track side and a couple of
seconds in the etch bath should then theoretically
etch the thin copper foil
and leave the tracks alone - or actually the board
should be taken out
before the etchant starts to eat into the tracks. It
can then be stuck to
some base with those spray glue picture framers use.
I'm mainly looking at
SMD boards, but is should also work for
through-hole.

No idea if this will work.

Rudie
----- Original Message -----
From: "victor Faria" <victorf@...>
To: <picbasic-l@...>
Sent: 06 December 2001 12:48
Subject: Re: PICBASIC-L direct PCB board printing


HEY,PEOPLE I just got an idea!!!
if I"m off base here please take it easy on the
heat!!!:-).
for pc boards rather than buying pcboards say .062.
suppose you just buy the copper I don't know the
thickness I'm assuming it
will be about 5mil then rather then transfer to
copper with paper how about
you run the copper in the laser printer?????
or will this ruin the laser???
so you would print on the copper then just affix the
copper to the board .
again I don't know the procedure for this.
but I'm sure some one will.
regards
Victor Faria
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gilberto Almazan"
<gilbertofelipe@...>
To: <picbasic-l@...>
Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 5:17 PM
Subject: RE: PICBASIC-L direct PCB board printing


hi, i make my own PCB?s with the tonner of a laser
printer, its easy and
cheaper (but you need practice). You only need a
photo paper (like the hp
paper), an iron and a good soap and a laser printer,
thats all.

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Hi Tony!

Yes, surprise, surprise! To do the outlines from a Gerber file, I build
a table of nodes (typically the pads), and add connection data to each
entry. the connection data is the number of the pad to connect to, and
the trace width to use. Other data in the node is the location of the
node, size/type of pad, an the parent pad.

I then "transverse" the "nets" of the list, and output (for now) PLC
code (point, line, circle for Vector) for each arc or line segment
needed to draw a net. Each net must go completely around all pads and
traces that are connected together in a net.

Well, it's working, at least for SIMPLE layouts. No funny "stacks" of
multiple traces on top on one another. Just the simple stuff.

PLC's for now, which quickly allows me to "see" the completed nets,
later it's an easy step to generate gcode instead. It's just as if you
"traced" all around a net. It's been a challenging program to write!

I started off thinking I could generate the outlines of the pads and
traces in Vector CAD/CAM, but anything more then a couple of pads and
traces was either too much for it, or required too much manual selection
to make it work. I have wanted to do this kind of program since I got
my first IBM PC.

Sounds like you're doing a "flood fill" approach. That would remove ALL
the unwanted copper. It could work, however the work I've seen has been
outlines. Eagle can do the outlines, but as I said, I've always wanted
to do this program!

Dolphin sounds interesting, but I'd hate to spend the time (and money)
to learn it, since I'm already using Vector. The free 4-th axis does
sound interesting!

Alan KM6VV

Tony Jeffree wrote:

Hi everyone
I thought I might share how I have been making circuit boards for years.
I have made 1000's of boards using a method that some do not like but I have
had excellent results with. First I design the board on my computer using an
old program that runs in dos but is very easy to use.
I then print this out on my HP970 ink jet and make multiple copies of the
board.
Then I use the blue sheets from Techniks Inc. using a copier to lay the
final trace to the blue sheet.
Iron on the copper board using a setting on my iron of 3 yours might very,
for 1min. till the traces can be seen through the back of the blue sheet.
Use little pressure let the iron do the work if traces are smearing or
spreading then the heat is too high or your applying too much pressure.
You then peel the blue sheet off when it barely warm not yet cold. If you
have a bad trace such as a cross over this can be corrected very easily by
using a dental tool to scrape off the connected traces.

After that I just put it in the tank that has a heater and aquarium pump
3min. and you have a board.
I dip my finished boards in a solder tank to coat the traces never had a bad
board.
My boards are used on lots of equipment you don't need fancy lettering or
green coating, my boards are put in a box and never seen. They have been
working for 7years on equipment so I must be doing it right.
There are other things I do to protect the trace such as electrical coating
etc.
Hope this helps some out there get started.
Derek B.
High-Tech Systems

I'm familiar with "DXF" files...Autocad right? I've been using auto cad
for years. This is my first time using it for PCB layout. I've been trying
to get a menu set up within the program to add components a little quicker
than inserting blocks. Another problem I have is getting it from the DWG
file to something I can transfer to a board. I'm new to electronics, and
find PCB design very interesting. Any Ideas?

Bob Bozarth

Hi,
Don't you now any links to sites that explain this with pictures?
and do you know where to buy equipment to do this?

Thanks for the many replies :)
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., JanRwl@A... wrote:

In a message dated 06-Dec-01 10:10:12 Central Standard Time,
thor918@o... writes:

Does anybody know how to print on top of the pcb.

Thor: This is done by "silk-screening". A photographically-

made "screen"

(once made only of silk, but I think, nowadays, some tougher

polyester is

used?) is used as a stencil, and PAINT is "squeegied" onto the

board. The

screen is liquid-tight in areas where you do NOT want the paint,

and only the

"screen" (open weave of the "silk" cloth) is clear, allowing paint

to squeeze

through. This is an "art" which is used in more than just PCB

work! All

kinds of posters, signs, labels, etc., are made by the

familiar "silk-screen"

method.

HOWEVER! If you just MUST have some labelling on the "top" of a

PCB, but

wanna make only ONE, and NOT spend all that for the frame, silk-

screen stock,

developer, squeegie-tool, paint, etc., you can use IMPRESSION

lettering

and/or patterns. Good art-supply stores will have more than just

letters in

that stuff! You want white or maybe yellow, but NOT black, etc.,

as those

colors hardly show on a FR-4 board. Once you have "rubbed off"

your entire

pattern, words, labels, etc., then SPRAY the top with clear enamel

or

lacquer. AFTER you have etched! And be careful not to get any of

that on the

"copper side"! It will look as nice as your steady hand can do

that! I have

done this countless times! Also, for making "professional looking"

panels!

Dial-numbers, ON/OFF, etc. Just SPRAY it after all the rubbing-

off/on is

done!

Jan Rowland

I wonder if toner would make a good solder mask, used
this way? Obviously you can't coat the whole board,
but just leaving it on the traces and cleaning it off
the pads could be a great idea.

Hmm... another use for toner. Toner is carbon and
plastic, and therefore maybe at least somewhat
conductive. Perhaps some laid down across some traces
could act as a humidity detector. With a reference one
sealed in a box for temperature compensation.

Steve Greenfield

--- Raymond Choat <rc@...> wrote:

And after printing directly to board and doing the
acid thing, leave the
printing on the board for surface protection.

----- Original Message -----
From: "jessey Montgomery"
<jessey_montgomery@...>
To: <picbasic-l@...>
Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 3:47 PM
Subject: Re: PICBASIC-L direct PCB board printing

Hello Victor, I am presently shoping for a laser

printer and before I read

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This is a copy of an E-Mail I sent to CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO a while back. I
thought It might be usefull to someone so I am reposting here.

Chris


Much like others are describing. After a week or so of using Protel for
board layout, use the Protel CAM processor and export the gerbers then
convert them to eagle scripts to import into eagle then converting to
outlines and outputing G-codes and then post processing them. Also I
was taking the drill files and seperately processing them. And finally
taking a board outline and processing that.

And after all that I could not work with oval pads.

The whole process was very manual and a PAIN!

Thanks to some help from this list I can now generate outlines in
Protel. I also do all the CAD work for the board outline. Then I run
the Protel CAM processor to get gerbers for top layer outline, bottom
layer outline, board outline (including tool dimensions) and NC drill
file for the holes.

I then have a post processor (Basically a scripting program and script)
that takes the files and converts them to G-Code along with tool changes
and clearance heights.

Finally I just load the G-Code files into my MaxNC and run them in
order, getting a completed board out at the end.

This new version uses far less programs works with oval pads and is a
lot more automated. Plus I have more control in Protel as to what
happens.

Chris Coley.

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
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Regards,

hightechsystems1 <hightechsystems@...>

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the Homebrew_PCBs
group.

File : /PCB Software/PC Logic/manual.pdf
Uploaded by : hightechsystems1 <hightechsystems@...>
Description : Manual

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Is this shareware, freeware, or a crack?

Just a caution to everyone, always run your virus
checker on anything you download and remember that you
still run them at your own risk.

And if anyone ever uploads
"FamousTennisPlayer.jpg.vbs", do -not- click on it.
;')

Steve

--- Homebrew_PCBs@... wrote:

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know
that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the
Homebrew_PCBs
group.

File : /PCB Software/PC Logic/manual.pdf
Uploaded by : hightechsystems1
<hightechsystems@...>
Description : Manual

You can access this file at the URL

Regards,

hightechsystems1 <hightechsystems@...>

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I wonder if toner would make a good solder mask, used
this way? Obviously you can't coat the whole board,
but just leaving it on the traces and cleaning it off
the pads could be a great idea.

No way.... It would melt right away and make a mess..

Best regards,
Alexandre Guimaraes

In a message dated 08-Dec-01 16:20:28 Central Standard Time, victorf@...
writes:

is it crippled in any way?
I think we should know this before we waste our time to download and then
see that it's not of any use to us.

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And if it's a demo what's the limitations?
is it crippled in any way?
I think we should know this before we waste our time to download and then
see that it's not of any use to us.
regards
victor

Hi Bob,

Yes, the DXF files are a good export file for such work. You may also
be able to use .PLT (plot files).

I don't know about new menus in Autocad, I intend to do board design in
Eagle.

Alan KM6VV

Bob Bozarth wrote:

I don't do crack. It is a demo the only limit is no save but you can print,
export to cam, metafile, bmp. Has auto router, easy to use interface, will
export nc file and Gerber and many more features. It is also cheap to buy if
you like it. I am not affiliated with these people but I like their product.
I found it while searching on the internet. I have been using one of there
first versions for years. If you need more info go to

Derek B.

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the Homebrew_PCBs
group.

File : /PCB Software/PC Logic/Demo limitations and pricing
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www.simtel.net/pub/pd/25092.html
I happen to be at the simtel site and ran across this.
I know there has been a discussion about converting pcb layouts to gcode for
cnc milling.
hope this is of help.
regards
victor Faria