Fw: [hammondzone] X-77-- UPDATE-24SEP23 - MAIN/ECHO SWITCH
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Hello Group I have spent considerable time on both switches in the combined assembly. (MAIN & ECHO) ...in situ ...not removed from the organ. I identified the switching mechanism action ...the sliding phenolic plate with the cavities which control contact being made. Pretty straight forward how the mechanism should function. Figuring out how best to tackle the problem of ensure the make/break conditions are working I have found really difficult ....and to-date, unsuccessful.? Considering Chris' warning of how to "bend/re-bend" these "springs" as this is a very delicate process, was an understatement.? I took the switches out of the circuits (electrically) to use a meter to identify when contact was making and breaking and spend many hours playing with the "bending" process. I got results quite quickly, but per Chris's warning it was very easy to over-correct (over-bend) .....and then getting back to a functioning position even more difficult. But the problem turned out to be that once I was able to get to a functioning position .....when I came back to the organ, almost any period of time later (day, week, month) ....the problem(s) returned .....as if the spring position had gone back to an incorrect position ....and now the same original or similar problem was back. I spent some time trying to clean the contacts. This proved even harder.? Using contact cleaner didn't make any distinguishable change. As of today, the "ECHO" switch is almost perfect. The only problem with "ECHO" is when pushing the organ console Leslie tabs (Upper & Lower), the signal to the "Echo" is stopped.? With these two tabs "UP", the external 147 is singing away beautifully.? These two tabs down and silence. It certainly wasn't like this before and these two tabs should not be affecting anything to the ECHO circuit as this is an "external" speaker. Just to explain this situation, if playing with the main speaker only, and then switching over to the external speaker, and the "Leslie UPPER & LOWER" tabs were already applied ...switching to the ECHO would result in silence ....which of course is wrong.? This was not the case when I had checked and adjusted the springs a month ago.? What "was" working previously now is not working. On a separate problem, with the "MAIN" active, I now have the main speaker "over-driving". The signal is clipping ....literally for everything ....regardless of volume pedal. I have come to the conclusion that this switch module needs to come off the organ and the switching spring mechanisms reset to what they are supposed to be .....which I really have no idea.? ?There needs to be a "gap" of some size for these switches to function properly. Is the gap supposed to be 1mm, 0.5mm, 0.3mm .....0.1mm....?? ?I have no idea. The sliding plate with the pockets for the switch detents might be the first clue as to the correct gap, but it is impossible to measure this pocket depth .....I've tried.? I have a small personal home shop (manual lathe/mill/CNC lathe/...) ...and all sorts of metrology equipment, which a finger dial might be only tool to reach inside to this area ....but this pocket feature is buried too far inside to measure. I have come to the conclusion, these switches need to be serviced by someone who has the technical specs and the means to make adjustments and test the "fix", such that they are functioning properly ...permanently. Doing so on a bench would be the best way to do this. Is there any such person I can send this assembly to, to do such a task? There is a bank of five switches: 1) Volume Soft 2) Main Only 3) Echo Only 4) Reverb I 5) Reverb II ...on the one pivot shaft.? I can cut this shaft easily on either side of the MAIN/ECHO switches ....otherwise it appears a major disassembly procedure is required to pull the entire tabs assembly up to access this one pivot shaft. Attached is a photo with some markings specific to the shaft and mounting bolts for the switching mechanism. This is where the "Hammond Experts" can chime in with their experience/knowledge. As clearly seen, these switch modules ...all of them ....are riveted together as their own entities ....very solid.? I would not consider any monkeying around with any of these assemblies. There is the "pivot" mechanism that is bolted onto the plate at the back. This allows "quick-switching" between the speakers. It should not be a part of this issue. It would simple be bolted back on afterwards. If anyone has any other thoughts/recommendations, please feel free ..... I really would like to get this organ back on track.? Once upon a time, when I had time, in a previous life, I had 75 various charts memorized ....along with Toccata and Fugue in D minor.? I could play for hours. I think I need to get back to it before my time runs out  HELP PLEASE!!! Wayne ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: Wayne Tarling via groups.io <tarlingw@...> Sent: Friday, February 24, 2023 at 06:15:54 PM PST Subject: Re: [hammondzone] X-77-Tonewheel Generator - BEARINGS - LUBRICATIONS - UPDATE-24FEB23 - switch problem? Ok, but when did the "noise" start?? Was is after something was done? I was suggesting an "audio" technician if an "organ" person is not available. This may NOT be an organ issue. There may be a filtering circuit in one of the amps, specific to the Celeste. If you have the manual, you should consider contacting any audio technician with circuit board designing and building knowledge. If you can find someone, they can sit down with the manual, that is full of ALL the amplifiers, and related circuitry, and identify which amplifier is likely the culprit .....OR .....one of the Hammond experts following this forum, may be able to identify which amplifier needs attention straight away and chime in. Bottom line is, you need to get this machine running! A few hundred bucks should easily get this fixed! .....and don't forget to lubricate the TWG .....as I have found mine was very thirsty. The organ sat quiet for many years. I am now going to get back to the charts I used to play many moons ago.
On Friday, February 24, 2023 at 04:56:28 PM PST, Gail Wrighter via groups.io <gwrighte@...> wrote:
The high pitch is coming out of the lower right speaker. At some point I'm going to get to it, literally, and see what I can figure out. Organ repair men in my area are few and far between as are organists. Other than the high pitch the organ performs very well considering it's age and the wood and brushed steel are immaculate. Only been in 2 houses and moved twice.
On Friday, February 24, 2023 at 06:29:47 PM EST, Wayne Tarling via groups.io <tarlingw@...> wrote:
Hi Gail. Mine is a low hum, typical of a power interference. But as initially pointed out, I had 8 seconds of "louder hum" when turning on the organ ...and then dropping off to an acceptable level after 8 seconds... on the 77.? ?The 147 was the reverse because the tubes.? ?I believe I will not be able to investigate this further until I get the speaker selector switches sorted out permanently because I have sheet metal removed in order to access these switches. You are back east, NY area I believe. No one that you of with Hammond knowledge. Have you tried to find anyone? You mentioned that you detected a change to the "hum" with the Celeste tab.? ?Was there any one thing that happened that initiated the "hum" ...such as moving it to a different location? This may possibly be an "electronics" issue ...that any audio technician could work on.? I'm sure a Hammond person could zero in on one of the channels as being suspect particularly when you mentioned the Celeste tab.? The X77 manual has ALL the schematics in it including the latest versions. I think you mentioned you have it (145 pages-pdf). I think I mentioned this before, this may in fact be one amplifier.? If a Hammond person could confirm this, then you could sent this one amp off for diagnosis and repair .....or a Hammond person might be able to suggest a couple of things to try. I believe you said you had tried a few things.? Sounds like you would be willing to participate up to a point. Just some thoughts  ?to get you going.Now on to my switches. Geoff, thanks for your email about ways to "adjust" the contacts. Chris had offered a method as well. I have found these "springs" to be very soft.? This means they can be bent very easily by rubbing them in a certain way without trying to actually bend them.? But as Chris recommended "be very careful". The "Echo Only" switch is readily accessible at the top terminals. I have disconnected all these five wires at the top to take the switches out of the cct. and checked each one.? All were functioning as expected, except for the switch position with the arrow.? For some reason this reading would NOT disconnect.? There was always continuity regardless of the switch position. I have looked everywhere around the top area for any add'l wires/connections and see nothing "extra". I cannot see the bottom area very well. There are a number of add'l wires around the bottom, but they should not have anything to do with the testing done on the "top side" continuity testing. Chris is well aware of these switches, but the question is,"is there some kind of "logic" on this one switch location that requires it to be "closed" in both positions? I have searched through the pdf manual and found how the "top" terminals should be connected. I have also found a wiring diagram on page 125 of the pdf manual. It's called: This one page is confusing if you're not a Hammond person.? It appears to offer the wiring information to the bottom terminals.? There is a single wire connecting the five terminals together providing a common on one side of the "Main Only" switch., which has me believe this terminal group is the bottom of the switch ...but that's just a guess. It could be that the view of the tabs showing lettering is a view from the top and the view without lettering is the bottom view of the tabs/switch (?) I have also come across the same situation of continuity NOT being broken on one of the switch positions on the "Main Only " tab as well. So perhaps the simplest of questions is should ALL switches demonstrate both open and closed contact conditions on both "Echo" and "Main" switches? Thanks to all Wayne
On Tuesday, February 21, 2023 at 08:55:03 AM PST, Gail Wrighter via groups.io <gwrighte@...> wrote:
Is your speaker hum a high or low pitch? Mine has a high pitch which I don't seem to get rid of. Very annoying.
On Tuesday, February 14, 2023 at 08:51:37 PM EST, Wayne Tarling via groups.io <tarlingw@...> wrote:
Well everything went reasonably well. TWG running very quiet.? Manuals functioning? ....pedals not. I opened up the console base panel, which had not been touched yet. I disconnected the 77 Leslie previously as it had too much power hum for the stage I was at. (Didn't need to be listening to it) a)? with the pedals not "responding", I thought I would try the "Pedal Bus-Bar Shifter".? It has a slot on the end of the shaft as if for a screwdriver, but I thought I would try turning with my fingers first.? To my surprise, the shaft moved very easily CW about 90¡ã? and not so much CCW ....so I left it re-positioned 90¡ã CW.? ? I tried the pedals ....no change.? ?I went back to the speaker selector, "Main Only" and "Echo Only", just moving the switches, and immediately had the pedals working with "Echo Only" depressed. (147)? I was quite surprised with this as this selector had been down previously with no response.? I went through all the pedals and drawbars and everything was working. b) I powered down to connect the 77 Leslie. Powering back up got the 8-10 seconds of power hum, which subsided more significantly this time and put the "Main Only" speaker selector down and had full pedals (77) ....but I couldn't tell if the 147 was still functioning.? Pushing the "Echo Only" tab down and found the 147 was now NOT working with the pedals. (It had been 20 seconds ago)? Keyboards were fine (both).? I ended up flicking this (Echo Only) switch up and down, getting mainly electrical contact clicking with no connection for the pedals.? (????) Unfortunately, looking at the back of the organ, the entire bank of these switches are buried behind a metal box running full length.? There are also a few screws on the top of this metal box, which can only be accessed with the top of the console removed. With much "playing around", I am getting to the summary that the "Echo Only" tab/switch (147) is either not making a proper contact for some reason ...perhaps just a cleaning needed?? The "Main Only" switch, when down, (77) the manuals and pedals function fine ...as they should.? I also note, that the power hum from the 77 Leslie is far less now. Pretty much quite acceptable ....as compared to the 147 which has a very too noticeable hum.? ?I see some notes on "HUM" on page 20 & 24 of the Hammond Manual.? I'll check that out later. Does anyone have any knowledge of accessibility to the "Echo Only" switch?? I cannot see in behind.?? I am looking at page 20 and 21 that reference "removing the top.? There is a section about removing the top: Is this the correct instruction?? I'll have to look around for each of these details, (where these screws are) assuming this is the correct instruction. Then of course, I am hoping this switch can be tested for "make" condition ....and then can the contacts be cleaned or fixed? ?.....or do I have this all wrong and there is something else causing this problem?? ?So far the problems have been principly mechanical in nature. |
