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Re: Tube heater current
GGLL
Well, today I measured the Penta 6JB6 heater current, which resulted 1.5A. or 25% more than data sheet stated (1.2A). The rig is working with two Pentas (120 watts out), and I added some resistance to compensate heater currents (agreed this with the owner, because a new 6JB6 in our local market costs around 63 US$, so to change all would add nearly 200 US$ to the overall cost).
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A last comment, about these sweep tubes procedence; 11 years ago or so, a friend (my radio elmer, now SK) which worked also repairing radios, had a similar experience, with the exception that the owner of the radio in his workbench bought the three replacement "12JB6" in a USA electronics market, in boxes with a "Radio Shack" brand printed. My friend put them in that TR-4C, with no results. After a close inspection, he found that the 12 number was printed over an erased 17 on all three tubes. They were really 17JB6. Best regards Guillermo - LU8EYW. Robert B. Bonner escribi: I was a Drake technician, put myself through college doing it. |
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Re: Tube rebuilder
pentalab
--- In ham_amplifiers@..., R L Measures <r@...> wrote:
wrote: long impedencetalkHenry hewith Eimac yesterday and after going over the symptoms on myhas me convinced that the tube has changed its input Pi- ### where have u been ? yes... it's GG. Now u know why Inetwork?RICH SEZ.... Does it use g-g config? collect amplifier manuals. Weinspected,not the of allhaveeyeballs,spent considerable time and effort using VOM, LC meter, MK-Ietc. to prove the mechanical and electrical charateristics indirectlydiodes,relays, RF cables, caps, inductors, resistors, transformers,accurate,and on, and on... We found that the Henry manual is not 100%but the errors are easily spotted and not significant if you 1100heatedvoltagecathode on a 3CX1200>chortle milswattswith 48 watts in and the grid current is right at the 200 any of### well rich.. I guess eimac is right... since his input swrlimit... Did Henry Radio get out of the amplifier business?the 3k/8 k ultra's were ever dead flat.... with that broadbandedRICH SEZ...There is no such thing as a broadbanded input for g-g. ### agreed. The 'broadband tuned input' is a one off disaster. they used 2 x xfmr's.. back to back.. on the 8 k ultra... and simply stepped the Z way up... then stepped it right back down to 50 ohms. ... on all bands cept 25-30 mhz... where they stepped it up.... but didn't step it back down as much... more like 75 ohms. ### Henry radio anounced 2 yrs ago.. that they lost their lease at the LA factory where they been for the last 40 yrs. They are OUT of the HF amateur amp business... and I believe also the commercial/military HF amp business. They still are in the solid state VHF/UHF amp business. Dunno, if they still support HF amps.... with various bit's and pieces or not. Too bad... they did make some excellent products over the years... like the 4 k ultra. I bought one of their 10 kw ccs LP filters just a few yrs ago.... with a 33 mhz cut off.... built like a tank.... with 7-16 DIN connectors... and bottom plates were 3/16" thick anodized AL... and big 1/4" silver plated tubing coils.. Plus 8 x HT-57 NPO caps in em. ### They also made excellent attenuator's.... in 1-2-3-4-5-6 db increments... in both 35/100+ watt versions... 50 ohms in/out. They shoulda just relocated the entire factory... too bad... end of an era. Rumour has it that Rube Goldberg worked there at one point. Later... Jim VE7RF
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Re: Heatsink relationship
Robert B. Bonner
Bill it all has a lot to do with CONDUCTIVITY and stability. Whether it is
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electrical or thermal conduction. Copper has a large availability of free electrons. The molecules freely exchange them. Other substances are not quite so loose. Chemistry is total mad science. BOB DD -----Original Message-----
From: ham_amplifiers@... [mailto:ham_amplifiers@...] On Behalf Of Bill Turner Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 10:12 AM To: ham_amplifiers@... Subject: Re: [ham_amplifiers] Heatsink relationship Sorry Hal, but your reply was totally incomprehensible. You went off about fractals, space blankets, waterbeds and electric bills without answering my question regarding density of "stuff", specifically why some less dense "stuff" is actually a better heat conductor and some more dense "stuff" is not. Try again if you like. Bill, W6WRT Yahoo! Groups Links |
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Re: Tube heater current
pentalab
--- In ham_amplifiers@..., "Robert B. Bonner"
<rbonner@...> wrote: KWM-380 showed up on the doorstep we tested both and said, what theF'enheimer are these guys thinking?### The TR-7 wsn't too bad. The KWM-380 was pure junk imo. The mating outboard processor for the 380 never did work right. Funny thing though... in the QST write up for the 380.. they ran it into the ground. Meanwhile, in the same issue... their is a 380 full page colour add on inside back cover ! That was the very LAST ad.. that Collins ever ran in QST. ## It was a well know fact back then.. that manufacturer's of ham gear.. when sending a product sample to the ARRL lab.. to be tested in the same lab... would be sending off basicly one off products... where all the 10% resistor's were hand picked.. and matched.. and under 4% tol.... each stage was precisely aligned, and one off components used, etc.... basicly.. the best one ever built. ### The ARRL finally smartened up.. and sent in buyer's off the street... and they bought XXX from AES... HRO, etc... or were ordered.. then shipped via UPS [read bashed outa alignment]... THEN they do the various tests. Put my pocket protector on the back of the bench and said have a nice day.gone by the time it showed up. I have zero experience with them, however theL4 series I could build in my sleep. I always had a huge supply of parts andthe parts bins helped me with my original building projects.day. I looked at it and said? Whats this for? Ceramic, huh, looks likeit could take some power... OH hey Brand New L4B ha.. Hey anybody need oneof these? Ought to be worth a couple hundred now.### It's a simple 4 x section 440 pf per section broadcast variable... that u can get from fair radio for $16.00. They used 2 x sections on 20-10m... all 4 x sections on 40m... and padded it on 80m with a fixed 700 pf mica. come out. ### Highly agreed. Ever see the Icom 701 ??? Tuned in 100 hz increments !! You should hear how cw sounds that way.. tuning across the bands. Icom has been making pure junk ever since. The 756 pro 1-2-3 is a failure, imd ridden mess. "but it's digital" screams the newbie. The DSP is a joke in em.... they are simple audio DSP chip sets.. used at low freqs.. at the wrong end of the xcvr. I laughed when I saw their ad for a '32 bit floating point dsp chip ' My Behringer EQ uses a 40 bit/96 khz... per channel dsp chip... and a 32 bit 96 khz per channel dsp for the misc stuff... and they are dirt cheap. Imo... installing dsp at the back end of the xcvr just enhances profits.. since no more xcvr's made with real xtal/collins mech filters. Heck... after 30 yrs... icom /yaesu finally figured out "roofing" filters... kinda late... Rob Sherwood had it figured out 30 yrs ago... and still has a better set up. The roofing filter has to pass BOTH sidebands... and my modified R4C used a separate 2.0 khz xtal filter for each ssb... and a 600 hz cw filter for LSB only [since the radio tranceived on lsb]. Fast forward 30 yrs... what do we have now? Icom 7800/yaesu 9000 with a 3/6/12 khz roofing filter in front end... which is still a lousy set up... since they all straddle zero beat. .. then they add the $5.00 "dsp" at the back end of the xcvr ! Now Raytheon, etc all.. do it right.. and at least put the DSP at the front end of the radio. They have DSP chips that work out to almost 500 mhz... so why not use em. later.. Jim VE7RF |
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Re: Tube heater current
Robert B. Bonner
Hey Gary,
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Heading out the door on the way to grad school. The TR-7 showed up on the doorstep, right about the same time the KWM-380 showed up on the doorstep we tested both and said, what the F'enheimer are these guys thinking? Put my pocket protector on the back of the bench and said have a nice day. About all I ever did with the L-7 is look at one, (pretty) I was gone by the time it showed up. I have zero experience with them, however the L4 series I could build in my sleep. I always had a huge supply of parts and the parts bins helped me with my original building projects. Hey I just found an L4B loading cap new in my parts bin the other day. I looked at it and said? Whats this for? Ceramic, huh, looks like it could take some power... OH hey Brand New L4B ha.. Hey anybody need one of these? Ought to be worth a couple hundred now. Anyway, It was the beginning of the worst streak of radios to ever come out. All the first runs of solid state, man the manufacturers really didn¡¯t have a clue. The NEW KENWOOD, TS-POS whatever, I was the first to find out if you put the Power Supply on the wrong side of the radio (The factory always sat it on one particular side) would induce MASSIVE HUM into the radio. You should have "over heard" that phone call with Kenwood it was a once in a lifetime experience. The next radio I got in had a mimeograph sheet slipped in the manual. That was because of me if any of you ever owned that Kenwood. I cant even remember the NUMBER the full sized Successor to 830, 530 etc... I have a real mean streak in me when people/companies have NO humility. I wasn¡¯t the company owner, I wasn¡¯t the department manager, but I was the TECHNICIAN and a pretty good one too. I had a massive out of store Collins trade that was bigger than the dealers. It really made the manager mad. My Frat room was stocked full of Guns and S-lines. BOB DD -----Original Message-----
From: ham_amplifiers@... [mailto:ham_amplifiers@...] On Behalf Of Garry Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 8:38 AM To: ham_amplifiers@... Subject: Re: [ham_amplifiers] Re: Tube heater current Hi Bob, Were you with Drake when the L-7 came out? Thanks, Garry - WR4R Robert B. Bonner wrote: the tubes.was considerable difference in height of tubes manufacturer to manufacturer.a considerably smaller package.<mailto:ham_amplifiers%40yahoogroups.com> Subject: Re: [ham_amplifiers] Re: Tube heater currenthave lot
Yahoo! Groups Links |
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Re: The cathode and ground.
Bill Turner
ORIGINAL MESSAGE:
On Tue, 19 Dec 2006 21:02:44 -0000, "craxd" <craxd@...> wrote: Here's my thoughts on the naming conventions when using the term<snip> ------------ REPLY FOLLOWS ------------ When I went to work in the avionics industry, one of the hardest things I had to relearn was "ground", but I think the way the avionics folks use it makes more sense that the way hams use it. What I had always called "ground" is referred to in avionics as "common". The "common" may or may not be connected to ground, but they are two different things. Once I got this through my head, it all became much clearer. I would suggest all engineers and technicians use "common" in place of "ground" unless something really and truly is connected to the earth itself, or in the case of aircraft, to the fuselage. To summarize: Ground is the dirt itself; common is the point where everything is connected together. Often they are not the same. Bill, W6WRT |
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Re: Heatsink relationship
Bill Turner
Sorry Hal, but your reply was totally incomprehensible. You went off
about fractals, space blankets, waterbeds and electric bills without answering my question regarding density of "stuff", specifically why some less dense "stuff" is actually a better heat conductor and some more dense "stuff" is not. Try again if you like. Bill, W6WRT |
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Re: Tube heater current
Garry
Hi Bob,
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Were you with Drake when the L-7 came out? Thanks, Garry - WR4R Robert B. Bonner wrote: I was a Drake technician, put myself through college doing it. |
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Re: Tube rebuilder
ad4hk2004
Yes, the 3K Ultra uses a transmission line transformer to convert the
~70 impedence at the cathode to 50 ohms... No tuned circuitry... It has worked for ~8 years without problems, though the input swr is always in the 1.6 to 1.9 range due to lack of reactance cancelling... The talk with Rick at Eimac was informative <nice guy- who dates back to the days of Bill Orr, etc.> Based on our talk I may have killed the tube with kindness... My farm is fed with a 25kva transformer off a HV underground line... My voltage has run in the 240-245 volt range for years... When I got the amp I adjusted the taps on the filament transformer so that it was 6.1 volts... I haven't looked at it in recent years... In troubleshooting this amp we checked the filament voltage and it was 6.02 volts idling and 5.92 under load... Turns out the power compnay has dropped my HV feed a bit and I now only get 230 volts at the panel and even that probably drops under conditions of high consumer demand back at the power plant... Rick believes the filament has been poisoned by the underheat condition not maintaining the thorium layer... I am going to try to reform the thorium layer by running the filament at 7.5 volts for 5 minutes with no plate voltage... Rick feels there is a small possibility that I can save the filament... If I kill the tube in the process I will be no worse off than now.. There is also the possibility that the vacuum is going soft... If so no amount of tinkering will save it... Once I try the reforming overheat I will get back with him... There is a chance that one of his customers who had a batch of custom 3CX1200D7 built with a 1500 watt cooler <taller fins> has one left over he will part with... The Henry has gobs of room inside the RF compartment so a tall tube is not an issue... As I noted the tube is making 1100 watts with 48 watts of drive so it is not totally gone... But this amp routinely made 1500 out in the past... Since I do have an understanding of what a dB is, I know that another 400 watts will not be heard on the other end except for those really weak DX contacts where 1 dB can make the difference... Not sure what I am gong to do with this amp - retube it or?... I may look for someone who will take it home and love it until the tube finally rolls over and goes toes up... In the meantime, there are a few contests coming up I want to play with... I called QRO and they are not taking new orders for the winter... Commander has over 20 amps on back order that he cannot get tubes and/or transformers for and he estimates deivery will be March 07... I know what an estimated delivery time means... I called Ten Tec and they have 3 amps built but not burned in yet with two of them already sold... so I ordered the third one, Titan III, Monday... Ya, ya, ya, I know that most of you don't think much of Titan... OTOH, Scott says they have a plain vanilla Titan at PJ2 the guys just beat the crap out of during the contests, and it takes a licking and keeps on ticking... If the III will make a solid 1500 out and work QSK with the new Orion, I will be satisified for now... A bigger amp is in the works but that will take some time to build.... denny / k8do |
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Re: Tube heater current
Robert B. Bonner
I was a Drake technician, put myself through college doing it.
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(Actually Collins, Hallicrafters FPM-300 was their last hurrah, Kenwood, Drake, Icom I hated Icoms in the 70's they were like transistor radios inside, ten-tec back when the Argonaut was king, and Yaeschmoo...) We used to buy tubes from the factory in mass quantity. They all came in matched pairs. One day while I was talking to the factory I asked about the tubes. The factory would plug them in and measure their individual personalities and mark them with a number. The tubes were always sold in matched pairs. Basically their idling current and individual gain was matched so the pair would work together. It wasn¡¯t critical, but things were just happier with matched pairs. They used the Sylvania tubes because they got a "good" deal on them, hahahha... Actually the Drake final compartment was very short and there was considerable difference in height of tubes manufacturer to manufacturer. The Sylvania tubes were the shortest... TADA, there's your answer. I also serviced Swan gear. We also carried matched pairs from SWAN. You could plug almost ANY sweep tube into those rigs as the final compartment was taller... Lets see if I can remember... I think 6MJ6 was the beefiest of the sweeps with about 36 or 40 watts of plate dissipation. Compare that to an 807 in a considerably smaller package. If the sockets were the same, plug em in.... Varoom load her up... We had a display of sin on the counter for years. All the tubes with the sides sucked in. The prize was a 3-500 with the plate tipped over and shorted out. I forget what piece of gear that came out of. In the old days RADIO SHACK tubes had a lifetime warranty. I used them in just about everything possible I could for my own use. When they would start to go soft I'd fixture them up and kill them. If they wouldn¡¯t pass the store tube tester, I'd get new tubes... BOB DD -----Original Message-----
From: ham_amplifiers@... [mailto:ham_amplifiers@...] On Behalf Of GGLL Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 8:36 PM To: ham_amplifiers@... Subject: Re: [ham_amplifiers] Re: Tube heater current pentalab escribi¨®: Perhaps there were variations due to availability of certain tubes??; I have two schematics and in both figures the use of 6JB6's in parallel (3.6A intended heater current), but with a couple minor changes in other tubes; these parallel 6JB6 are in series with a string of many tubes which 6V filament currents added is also 3.6A, and the whole series arrangement fed with 12.6VAC. When the owner put the Penta's with the added heater current, voltage drop was wrong, a lot more than 6.3V at the miniature (7 and 9 pin) tubes, and a lot less than 6.3V at the "6JB6". Now I figure why (also why) Drake recommended to use only Sylvania tubes. Best regards Guillermo - LU8EYW. --- In ham_amplifiers@..., GGLL <nagato@...> wrote: Yahoo! Groups Links |
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Re: Tube heater current
Robert B. Bonner
It was done because the TR-4/3 went mobile and the filaments ran off the
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battery. -----Original Message-----
From: ham_amplifiers@... [mailto:ham_amplifiers@...] On Behalf Of pentalab Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 6:12 PM To: ham_amplifiers@... Subject: [ham_amplifiers] Re: Tube heater current --- In ham_amplifiers@..., GGLL <nagato@...> wrote: with the output tubes in a Drake TR-4 I was committed to repair. It has three 6JB6in parallel to achieve 200..220 watts out at 80, less at the upper bands. Tomy surprise, the tubes (Penta brand) appear to be 6V but to take a lot moreheater current than the data sheet specified 1.2A. ### The Drake TR-4 and older TR-3 all used 3 x 12JB6's... with all the 12.6 v fils in parallel. The drake T4X/C used a pair of 6JB6's [6.3 v fils] with the two fils in series. This was done so the mating AC-3/4 power supply would run either the TR- 3/4 xcvr.. or the T4X/C TX. Later....... Jim VE7RF
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Re: Heatsink relationship
Robert B. Bonner
That's why I build all my antennas out of steel.
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My 80 meter beam weighs 62,000 pounds. BOB DD -----Original Message-----
From: ham_amplifiers@... [mailto:ham_amplifiers@...] On Behalf Of craxd Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 6:00 PM To: ham_amplifiers@... Subject: [ham_amplifiers] Re: Heatsink relationship Actually, copper weighs a little more than steel. Copper: 0.295 pounds In^3 Aluminum: 0.098 pounds In^3 Steel: 0.283 pounds In^3 Copper also has the lowest yield strength of all three with steel being the highest. Best, Will |
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Re: Tube heater current
GGLL
pentalab escribi:
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Perhaps there were variations due to availability of certain tubes??; I have two schematics and in both figures the use of 6JB6's in parallel (3.6A intended heater current), but with a couple minor changes in other tubes; these parallel 6JB6 are in series with a string of many tubes which 6V filament currents added is also 3.6A, and the whole series arrangement fed with 12.6VAC. When the owner put the Penta's with the added heater current, voltage drop was wrong, a lot more than 6.3V at the miniature (7 and 9 pin) tubes, and a lot less than 6.3V at the "6JB6". Now I figure why (also why) Drake recommended to use only Sylvania tubes. Best regards Guillermo - LU8EYW. --- In ham_amplifiers@..., GGLL <nagato@...> wrote: |
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Re: Tube rebuilder
On Dec 19, 2006, at 7:57 AM, n6jp wrote:
Less filament V., more filament A., different socket. Uncheap.- due to its abundance of feedback C, i f I had an amp whoseWhat are the typical changes that need to be addressed in switching R. L. Measures, AG6K, 805.386.3734 r@..., rlm@..., www.somis.org |
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Re: Tube rebuilder
Thanks. The 3cx1200D7 has less feedback C that the A7 version.
On Dec 19, 2006, at 1:27 PM, ad4hk2004 wrote: Sorry, I need to be more specific... 3CX1200D7 (YU121)R. L. Measures, AG6K, 805.386.3734 r@..., rlm@..., www.somis.org |
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Re: Tube rebuilder
On Dec 19, 2006, at 3:25 PM, pentalab wrote:
--- In ham_amplifiers@..., R L Measures <r@...> wrote:Does it use g-g config?talk There is no such thing as a broadbanded input for g-g. Did Henry Radio get out of the amplifier business?inspected,not the R. L. Measures, AG6K, 805.386.3734 r@..., rlm@..., www.somis.org |
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Re: Tube heater current
pentalab
--- In ham_amplifiers@..., GGLL <nagato@...> wrote:
with the output tubes in a Drake TR-4 I was committed to repair. It has three 6JB6in parallel to achieve 200..220 watts out at 80, less at the upper bands. Tomy surprise, the tubes (Penta brand) appear to be 6V but to take a lot moreheater current than the data sheet specified 1.2A. ### The Drake TR-4 and older TR-3 all used 3 x 12JB6's... with all the 12.6 v fils in parallel. The drake T4X/C used a pair of 6JB6's [6.3 v fils] with the two fils in series. This was done so the mating AC-3/4 power supply would run either the TR- 3/4 xcvr.. or the T4X/C TX. Later....... Jim VE7RF
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Re: Grounded Screen Configuration
pentalab
--- In ham_amplifiers@..., "craxd" <craxd@...> wrote:
shell type cabinet made of aluminum or like to C's placed together at 90then is placed inside, generally at the rear of the cabinet. I wouldcopper or steel where I can solder the bypass caps directly to it or anycabinet is aluminum anyhow. Aluminum is supposed to be better atshielding, but I'm not convinced that is is that much better than steel.#### steel...esp Stainless steel.. doesn't handle RF worth a damn. Don't believe me.... tey making a hairpin match from stainless steel wire..... right at the dead center point it will turn BLACK every time [ electrical neutral point, zero V... current is max.] If u grnd the mid point to the boom.... u now have a "beta match"... ala hi-hain ants. ### Notive how JA6TAY uses a large copper plate arounf the tube socket on his big metal tube amps..... then it's aluminium. There is one helluva lot of Rf current between the anode and chassis grnded grid on a GG triode amp. ### I used steel chassis's on some hb 6146 B TX's back in the early 70's... a real pain to cut, and drill, and work with. Pland jane sheet metal has a tendency to rust too. I stopped using steel for fronta and rear panels as well. Steel is great for removable sides of rack cabinets... and the actual rack itself... that's it. Later... Jim VE7RF |
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Re: Heatsink relationship
craxd
Actually, copper weighs a little more than steel.
Copper: 0.295 pounds In^3 Aluminum: 0.098 pounds In^3 Steel: 0.283 pounds In^3 Copper also has the lowest yield strength of all three with steel being the highest. Best, Will --- In ham_amplifiers@..., "pentalab" <jim.thomson@...> wrote:
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Re: Heatsink relationship
Harold Mandel
¿ªÔÆÌåÓýBill and Jim, ? In my first response it was mentioned about the fractal relationships of the molecular structure of materials and their exhibitions of varying qualities regarding excitation by energy sources. ? Weight and Mass were never mentioned and maybe should be completely disregarded, as only the structural relationship(s) of the component building blocks were being considered. ? Hal > |
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