Hi Michael:

?

This looks like a great project. I note that the main thrust of your post is about board product selection, which I can’t help you with as I’m based in Australia. However, there are some similarities to your project with a solid wood library fit-out I did in 2016 and thought perhaps I could provide some inspiration.

?

Some feedback on your description:

?

Half inch back

I would increase this to a 3/4” back. Half inch does not allow for reliable rebate + glue + screw from the case sides, nor does it provide a “life-time” robust back that will not bow, warp, separate (etc.) from the cabinet back over time. It looks clear that you will be installing your library units permanently (reference to building a base onsite, plus the ladder usually needs something that ain’t moving), which means you’ll want to level the base and install the case units plumb with a wall that will most certainly not be flat or plumb itself. This means you’ll have gaps (sometimes largish gaps) behind a significant portion of your installation. If the backs somehow delaminate from your case sides, there is no scope whatsoever for rectifications. I would not want to take such a risk with 1/2” material.

?

Adjustable shelves

Adjustable shelves are nice, but I would counsel against them for a library of this size. Fixed shelving makes each case unit much stronger, and the fact that you can nail/screw the back into each shelf is a bonus. The library I did was only 2850mm high, so not quite as tall as your project but mine had an aggregate width much wider than your 18’. For a library of this size, in my opinion, complete freedom to arrange books with maximum flexibility is most desirable. Yes you’ll pack in more books if you size shelving exactly for novels, and shelving for a reference collection, but I’d rather miss out on a little saving of space for the flexibility of arranging books in whatever way you or the client wants. I tried to counsel my client to have a very large shelf at the bottom (350-400mm tall) but it was rejected for a uniform 300mm spacing between all shelving. I’d be happy to share detailed plans with you offsite if that is helpful.

?

Unit widths

You don’t reference the width of your units, but I suspect they are much wider than I would typically recommend. I have found that even with a substantial stiffener, unsupported shelving spans of more than 900mm always sag without steel reinforcement. I have made dozens of bookcases over the decades, from 1200mm, 900mm, 800mm, 700mm, and 600mm widths. You probably have too and I don’t mean to sh4t on your own experiences. For bookcases which absolutely must have wider shelves, I incorporate an upright which is housed into the front of each shelf, directly behind the two doors. This upright still allows books to stack on the shelves unbroken (behind the upright), and said upright is invisible when the doors are closed. This upright can be installed with fixed or movable shelving. For the 2016 library, I settled on 600mm widths. This was narrower than the client wanted, but the shelves exhibit minimal sag year after year. Something to consider.

?

Unit depths

Again, I know you didn’t ask, so forgive me for answering the unasked questions (David B. knows I specialise in these sorts of answers! LOL), but most designers (not necessarily you) make bookcases which are too deep. Almost all books fit on a 200mm or 8” depth shelf. Yes, there are some that require 220mm or more, but these are fairly rare. Now most bookcases are 300mm deep because the designer is working towards a “one size fit all” solution, and also because most bookcases are freestanding and need a wider (deeper) base. In your case, with fixed units, you have more choice to reduce the depth of your unit. 200mm would be radical. For my client, I chose a unit depth of 250 and a shelf depth of 210mm (with a 20mm back) which was perfect (IMO). That said, your shelves have doors (mine did not) so there is no scope for the odd book “sticking out”. In such a case, a 300mm deep unit might be warranted, less 20mm for doors, less 20mm for backs, for an overall shelf depth of 260mm.

?

Ladder

My library also had a ladder and great care is needed to make sure there is sufficient strength and space for a horizontal sliding rail (unless your ladder is an independent A-frame)? I can visualise a horizontal rail at the 2/3rds level (from the floor), more or less aligned with the solid “mezzanine” shelf on the right of your rendering? I would be happy to explore this further if relevant including pictures of my bespoke ladder.

?

Assembling units onsite

Looking at your rendering, I see that you are making many units and “stacking” them together. Definitely the right way to go. But I would look very closely at how you plan to make the installation look like a single unit or a single installation. Very closely.

?

For example, right now you have rendered horizontal face frames which are full-width, with upright face frames captured between them. I would strongly reconsider as you will have end-grain butted up against end-grain, and it will very difficult to get this many frames aligned to your satisfaction. The render also shows a strongly horizontal emphasis – which may be exactly what you want? I would push you to consider vertical elements, preferably full length as a way of tying all the units together.

?

I made individual units which were flanked by hollow (constructed) columns, which might be more elaborate than you have time or space for. But you should at least consider a full-length panel to cover the ends of your unit so the entire upright looks like one. (Don’t forget to make it extra wide so you can scribe it into the wall for a seamless look.) If you take up this advice, you’ll have a double upright on the far left of your installation. That extra thickness can look fantastic, and fit in perfectly with your internal uprights (if you take up my option of full-length vertical elements covering case sides).

?

Currently, as you have rendered it – you have a single upright on the outer or left side of the installation, but double uprights between each unit (since each unit has its own upright). Instead: butt each case hard up against each other, and then apply (during installation) a prefinished full-length upright to cover the exposed edges. This will allow you to have uniform vertical elements, that are say 36mm wide, at the full left, and between units.

?

I used a very large crown stapler and urethane glue to secure each unit to each other. My units had machined rebates on the front edge, read to receive the full-length vertical elements. After installation, I glued and headless pinned the vertical face frames for a seamless look.

?

If you like, I’d be happy to take this discussion offsite and share more details. I have no vested interest whatsoever except to be helpful. Take what is helpful and ditch the rest! ? Pictures to follow.

?

Before

?

?

After

?

?

Vertical Upright Detail

?

?

Sequence of shots showing the installation of units, crown staples, and installation of uprights in machined rebates…

?

?

?

?

?

Warm regards,

Lucky

?

Dr David Luckensmeyer

?

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Michael Garrison Stuber <mtgstuber@...>
Date: Monday, 29 January 2024 at 07:12
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: [FOG] Sheet good recommendations

Hi folks,

??? I'm about to embark on a project to build a series of modular bookcases.? (To be clear, my projects move slow and are for personal use . . . I may be working on this into 2026.? Sigh).? The basic design is simple box out of 3/4" ply, with a 1/2" back.? Rabbets on the top and back, dado for the bottom shelf.? There will be a face frame on the front, with glass doors. The plan is adjustable shelves.? I'm debating between sawtooth supports, commercial supports, and something custom where I use my ancient CNC machine to cut pockets that the shelf supports will rest on.? The shelves will have a solid edging with a lip to stiffen them, probably attached with a few dominoes.

??? Here's a basic rendering:

??? For the interior units, I may just pocket screw the face frame on.? For the end units I'll probably use dominoes so there is nothing exposed.

??? These will stack to form a library wall that will be 12 feet tall and 18 feet wide.? I didn't bother to show the toe-kick / base that will be built on site.? There will be a library ladder that will allow access to the upper units:

??? I've started looking at what material I want to use for this.?? I'm based near Spokane, Washington.? My local suppliers are able to get materials from Columbia, Murphy, States, and Timber Products.? They can get materials from other vendors as well, but these seem to the big ones.

??? I've used ApplyPly, Baltic Birch, and shop grade panels in the past.? While I like the price of cheaper imported panels, some shop grade birch I bought years ago was put together with bondo (or something similar) internally and destroyed some good cutters.? I'd rather by better materials and not have to fight with them or damage my cutters.

??? Here are my questions:

• What kind of core would you get for this application???

• Should I stick with a veneer core???
• Is there an advantage (or disadvantage) to the various hybrid cores?? (I'm not sure I care whether the panels are dead flat, and I'm generally suspicious of MDF)

• If you've worked with materials from any of these manufacturers, are there materials that you would recommend, or specifically avoid?

??? I would also welcome any general advise on the best way to approach this project.

???

--
Michael Garrison Stuber

On Jan 28, 2024, at 11:36?PM, David Luckensmeyer <dhluckens@...> wrote:

Hi Michael:

?

Thanks for your reply. I’ve already sent you more photos, ideas and plans for my library, for what they are worth. I’m excited to hear what others come up with.

?

I’m not sure which “left corner” you’re referring to? There were many hollow columns in this project, at the ends of each unit, either side of the door and window. I wanted to include a couple of hidden drawers, up high and accessible only with the ladder, but the cost got in the way. And there was a much larger void in the column (right of window) which is likely what you mean by “left corner”. It was 500mm x 250mm, and was crying out for cut-away, and timber panels with glass shelving and LED backlighting. Again the budget got in the way. So be it.

?

I loved that project. I charged $35,000AUD nearly 10 years ago. At the time I should have charged $60,000AUD. But what a project! ?

By the way, David B. helped me enormously with that project. It was my first major piece after buying the Kappa 400 and Profil 45. Thanks David!

?

Warm regards,

Lucky

?

Dr David Luckensmeyer

?

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Michael Garrison Stuber <mtgstuber@...>
Date: Monday, 29 January 2024 at 11:39
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [FOG] Sheet good recommendations

Hi Lucky,

??? I appreciate the thoughts.? The rendering is a "first thought".? You've raised some excellent questions.? I've sent you a private message for more details on your project.? I expect I'll go through several more iterations in SketchUp before I move forward.? I'm happy to get input and insights from folks here.

??? I'm curious -- what did you with the left corner in the project you show below?? Is that dead space?? A hidden cabinet?

On 1/28/2024 4:08 PM, David Luckensmeyer wrote:

Hi Michael:

?

This looks like a great project. I note that the main thrust of your post is about board product selection, which I can’t help you with as I’m based in Australia. However, there are some similarities to your project with a solid wood library fit-out I did in 2016 and thought perhaps I could provide some inspiration.

?

Some feedback on your description:

?

Half inch back

I would increase this to a 3/4” back. Half inch does not allow for reliable rebate + glue + screw from the case sides, nor does it provide a “life-time” robust back that will not bow, warp, separate (etc.) from the cabinet back over time. It looks clear that you will be installing your library units permanently (reference to building a base onsite, plus the ladder usually needs something that ain’t moving), which means you’ll want to level the base and install the case units plumb with a wall that will most certainly not be flat or plumb itself. This means you’ll have gaps (sometimes largish gaps) behind a significant portion of your installation. If the backs somehow delaminate from your case sides, there is no scope whatsoever for rectifications. I would not want to take such a risk with 1/2” material.

?

Adjustable shelves

Adjustable shelves are nice, but I would counsel against them for a library of this size. Fixed shelving makes each case unit much stronger, and the fact that you can nail/screw the back into each shelf is a bonus. The library I did was only 2850mm high, so not quite as tall as your project but mine had an aggregate width much wider than your 18’. For a library of this size, in my opinion, complete freedom to arrange books with maximum flexibility is most desirable. Yes you’ll pack in more books if you size shelving exactly for novels, and shelving for a reference collection, but I’d rather miss out on a little saving of space for the flexibility of arranging books in whatever way you or the client wants. I tried to counsel my client to have a very large shelf at the bottom (350-400mm tall) but it was rejected for a uniform 300mm spacing between all shelving. I’d be happy to share detailed plans with you offsite if that is helpful.

?

Unit widths

You don’t reference the width of your units, but I suspect they are much wider than I would typically recommend. I have found that even with a substantial stiffener, unsupported shelving spans of more than 900mm always sag without steel reinforcement. I have made dozens of bookcases over the decades, from 1200mm, 900mm, 800mm, 700mm, and 600mm widths. You probably have too and I don’t mean to sh4t on your own experiences. For bookcases which absolutely must have wider shelves, I incorporate an upright which is housed into the front of each shelf, directly behind the two doors. This upright still allows books to stack on the shelves unbroken (behind the upright), and said upright is invisible when the doors are closed. This upright can be installed with fixed or movable shelving. For the 2016 library, I settled on 600mm widths. This was narrower than the client wanted, but the shelves exhibit minimal sag year after year. Something to consider.

?

Unit depths

Again, I know you didn’t ask, so forgive me for answering the unasked questions (David B. knows I specialise in these sorts of answers! LOL), but most designers (not necessarily you) make bookcases which are too deep. Almost all books fit on a 200mm or 8” depth shelf. Yes, there are some that require 220mm or more, but these are fairly rare. Now most bookcases are 300mm deep because the designer is working towards a “one size fit all” solution, and also because most bookcases are freestanding and need a wider (deeper) base. In your case, with fixed units, you have more choice to reduce the depth of your unit. 200mm would be radical. For my client, I chose a unit depth of 250 and a shelf depth of 210mm (with a 20mm back) which was perfect (IMO). That said, your shelves have doors (mine did not) so there is no scope for the odd book “sticking out”. In such a case, a 300mm deep unit might be warranted, less 20mm for doors, less 20mm for backs, for an overall shelf depth of 260mm.

?

Ladder

My library also had a ladder and great care is needed to make sure there is sufficient strength and space for a horizontal sliding rail (unless your ladder is an independent A-frame)? I can visualise a horizontal rail at the 2/3rds level (from the floor), more or less aligned with the solid “mezzanine” shelf on the right of your rendering? I would be happy to explore this further if relevant including pictures of my bespoke ladder.

?

Assembling units onsite

Looking at your rendering, I see that you are making many units and “stacking” them together. Definitely the right way to go. But I would look very closely at how you plan to make the installation look like a single unit or a single installation. Very closely.

?

For example, right now you have rendered horizontal face frames which are full-width, with upright face frames captured between them. I would strongly reconsider as you will have end-grain butted up against end-grain, and it will very difficult to get this many frames aligned to your satisfaction. The render also shows a strongly horizontal emphasis – which may be exactly what you want? I would push you to consider vertical elements, preferably full length as a way of tying all the units together.

?

I made individual units which were flanked by hollow (constructed) columns, which might be more elaborate than you have time or space for. But you should at least consider a full-length panel to cover the ends of your unit so the entire upright looks like one. (Don’t forget to make it extra wide so you can scribe it into the wall for a seamless look.) If you take up this advice, you’ll have a double upright on the far left of your installation. That extra thickness can look fantastic, and fit in perfectly with your internal uprights (if you take up my option of full-length vertical elements covering case sides).

?

Currently, as you have rendered it – you have a single upright on the outer or left side of the installation, but double uprights between each unit (since each unit has its own upright). Instead: butt each case hard up against each other, and then apply (during installation) a prefinished full-length upright to cover the exposed edges. This will allow you to have uniform vertical elements, that are say 36mm wide, at the full left, and between units.

?

I used a very large crown stapler and urethane glue to secure each unit to each other. My units had machined rebates on the front edge, read to receive the full-length vertical elements. After installation, I glued and headless pinned the vertical face frames for a seamless look.

?

If you like, I’d be happy to take this discussion offsite and share more details. I have no vested interest whatsoever except to be helpful. Take what is helpful and ditch the rest! ? Pictures to follow.

?

Before

?

?

After

?

?

Vertical Upright Detail

?

?

Sequence of shots showing the installation of units, crown staples, and installation of uprights in machined rebates…

?

?

?

?

?

Warm regards,

Lucky

?

Dr David Luckensmeyer

?

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Michael Garrison Stuber <mtgstuber@...>
Date: Monday, 29 January 2024 at 07:12
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: [FOG] Sheet good recommendations

Hi folks,

??? I'm about to embark on a project to build a series of modular bookcases.? (To be clear, my projects move slow and are for personal use . . . I may be working on this into 2026.? Sigh).? The basic design is simple box out of 3/4" ply, with a 1/2" back.? Rabbets on the top and back, dado for the bottom shelf.? There will be a face frame on the front, with glass doors. The plan is adjustable shelves.? I'm debating between sawtooth supports, commercial supports, and something custom where I use my ancient CNC machine to cut pockets that the shelf supports will rest on.? The shelves will have a solid edging with a lip to stiffen them, probably attached with a few dominoes.

??? Here's a basic rendering:

??? For the interior units, I may just pocket screw the face frame on.? For the end units I'll probably use dominoes so there is nothing exposed.

??? These will stack to form a library wall that will be 12 feet tall and 18 feet wide.? I didn't bother to show the toe-kick / base that will be built on site.? There will be a library ladder that will allow access to the upper units:

??? I've started looking at what material I want to use for this.?? I'm based near Spokane, Washington.? My local suppliers are able to get materials from Columbia, Murphy, States, and Timber Products.? They can get materials from other vendors as well, but these seem to the big ones.

??? I've used ApplyPly, Baltic Birch, and shop grade panels in the past.? While I like the price of cheaper imported panels, some shop grade birch I bought years ago was put together with bondo (or something similar) internally and destroyed some good cutters.? I'd rather by better materials and not have to fight with them or damage my cutters.

??? Here are my questions:

• What kind of core would you get for this application???

• Should I stick with a veneer core???
• Is there an advantage (or disadvantage) to the various hybrid cores?? (I'm not sure I care whether the panels are dead flat, and I'm generally suspicious of MDF)

• If you've worked with materials from any of these manufacturers, are there materials that you would recommend, or specifically avoid?

??? I would also welcome any general advise on the best way to approach this project.

???

--
Michael Garrison Stuber

--
Michael Garrison Stuber

On Jan 29, 2024, at 8:20?AM, Tim Pond <timapond@...> wrote:

Hello to all,

Very interesting thread indeed. I am also in the early planning stages of a similar cabinet project(s). I'm also considering what materials are available here in Ohio.
David I am also using F360 for the the design stage. I am trying to establish a typical left and right side parametric model to use use with all the various cabinets I plan to build. Your drawings are very interesting and I will try to study them closely...the parameters in particular. If you have these listed on any of your website project files please let me know. I would to like to compare where i am going with mine.
I will try to post my progress as I can.

Thanks to all!

Tim Pond

On Jan 29, 2024, at 1:02?PM, Andy <andy.raynor08@...> wrote:?

David - you are a wealth of information, thank you for sharing.?

I’ve recently decided to add a cnc machine to the shop. I have a passing knowledge of fusion in that I can make a parametric model and etc.

One of the more daunting aspects of using Fusion as my go to software for design is that I cannot seem to find a reliable library for joinery and hardware for cabinet construction. ?Mozaik, KCD and others have Blum/Salice/Lamello/Festool built right into their models.

If I’m just modeling a piece of furniture, then those aspects aren’t as important, to me anyway. ?But if I’m batching out a kitchen or closet then I want the cnc to place pilot holes, hinge cup holes and etc, as well as cut to dimension. ?I can’t figure out an extension or library that actually contains hardware and joinery. ?I saw your video on how to incorporate Blum drawer slides into Fusion, perhaps I just have to suck it up and download all of the various CAD files (if they exist)

Do you know if there is a way, within Fusion 360 to change (parametrically) the hardware based on stock thickness or stock width? ?For instance, within Mozaik if I size a cabinet up, Mozaik will scribe a hardware line for my Lamello every 300mm. ?And if the stock thickness changes, so does the relevant Blum slide…..

Ultimately I’d like to ditch Mozaik and rely on Fusion to design and produce G code for the cnc, with Fusion having a parametric model of each cabinet type (base, tall, wall etc) with the ability to change hardware and joinery options as a parameter. ?If there is indeed a way to do this, I’d happy signup and pay for a class (of classes) on how to.

Andy

On Mon, Jan 29, 2024 at 2:15?PM David P. Best <dbestworkshop@...> wrote:

Hi Tim,

My YouTube channel has a section and playlist devoted to Fusion 360 and its use in woodworking applications.? You can find it listed here:

Most of the tutorials I have created thus far are more advanced and illustrate the use of components in building an assembly and using joints to create functional drawer slides, etc. ?

I am working on a new tutorial series the is geared more to the woodworker using Fusion to design cabinets and bookshelves.? For this I will be using parameter-driven design workflows. ?

All but the most simple Fusion models I develop are driven by parameters so that changes can be easily made.? When the parameters include a bunch of logic and math, I prefer to manage the parameters external to Fusion and bring them into the model with an extension called “Parameter I/O” available from the Fusion add-on web site.? To manage a complex set of parameter I use a spreadsheet that can output the required CSV file for import into Fusion.

For cabinets and bookshelves I have developed a spreadsheet template where I fill out various aspects of the cabinet design.? This version will handle a cabinet with up to six drawers or doors, and up to 5 divider shelves between the doors/drawers.? Here is a screenshot of the basic cabinet box specification which can be enter in imperial or metric - the yellow boxes are where the specifications are entered:

<ShotiMac_1999.jpeg>

The next section of the spreadsheet specifies the layout of the drawer/shelves with the heights specified as ratios between the drawer/door heights and the spreadsheet does the calculations to fit in the cabinet box as previously specified:

<ShotiMac_2001.jpeg>

And finally there is a section where the drawer/door and shelf aspects are specified including target reveals, setbacks, drawer slides, drawer box construction details are specified:

<ShotiMac_2002.jpeg>

The spreadsheet includes extensive help and input validation and a set of buttons to generate a sample cabinet, and output the parameters for input into Fusion:

<ShotiMac_2004.jpeg>

As an example, here is the parameter file generated by the above set of cabinet specifications:

<ShotiMac_2005.jpeg>

And here are some examples of how the Fusion 360 model is altered by different parameters.? This is the sample cabinet:

<ShotiMac_2006.jpeg>

Below are two cabinets that would be typical of a kitchen base cabinet, one being a bank of 4 drawers, the other having one drawer and a door below:

<ShotiMac_2010.jpeg>

<ShotiMac_2009.jpeg>

And a simple bookcase with equally spaced shelves:

<ShotiMac_2011.jpeg>

Anyway that’s where I’m headed with this.? Let me know if you have questions or would like to dialog about this in a DM.

David Best
DBestWorkshop@...

On Jan 29, 2024, at 8:20?AM, Tim Pond <timapond@...> wrote:

Hello to all,

Very interesting thread indeed. I am also in the early planning stages of a similar cabinet project(s). I'm also considering what materials are available here in Ohio.
David I am also using F360 for the the design stage. I am trying to establish a typical left and right side parametric model to use use with all the various cabinets I plan to build. Your drawings are very interesting and I will try to study them closely...the parameters in particular. If you have these listed on any of your website project files please let me know. I would to like to compare where i am going with mine.
I will try to post my progress as I can.

Thanks to all!

Tim Pond