#133897

Bills Clear View design is a more efficient cyclone than Oneida. If you could couple Oneida’s controller with a Clear View cyclone it would likely be a bit better than the Oneida.

#133898

开云体育

jJoe's paper is very good and worth reading.? Airflow at higher pressure is the key.? Many wood shop collectors use lower pressure impellers that move a lot of air with large machines ( think Wide Belt sanders with large ports ) but suffer when machines have small ports or internal restrictions.? That makes dust collection difficult when running a variety of size and types of machines.? The Oneida variable speed collector is a very flexible unit.? I run a manual version that I cobbled together using a Cincinnati Fan high pressure impeller and a vfd that is similar.? A three phase motor with a vfd can vary speed and to some extent increase cfm at pressure but the impeller design can be a limiting factor.? The Oneida collector is worth looking at if running both large and small machines, or in my case, old industrial machines with lots of capability but poorly designed collection.

Dave

Show quoted text

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Joe Jensen <joe@...>
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2023 11:33 AM
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [FOG] Selecting a dust collector

?

The science of dust collection falls into the mechanical engineering field called fluid dynamics. As an engineer I studied fluid dynamics in college and sadly much of the “wisdom” on the internet is incorrect. I have a white paper I wrote that I’m happy to share with anyone who asks. The short version is this. The smallest opening the air much flow through and the suction pressure of the collector determine for the most part the actual CFM. ?Big mains connected to a saw with a small opening inside under the blade will do little to increase the CFM. The way to increase CFM to McRae’s suction pressure at the machine. Bigger duct does this but only to a point as low cfm in a big duct has effectively no resistance.?

I have an Oneida 5HP variable speed dust collector. ?It automatically increases the suction when the cfm is low to maximize. I tested the cfm at each machine before and after the variable speed controller and I approximately doubled the CFM at each machine. My Felder KF700SP has a port on the side that is about 5”. But inside the machine the flex hose is about 4” and the cast iron part under the blade has an opening that’s equivalent to about a 3” duct. ?I can run 5” mains or 10” mains to the machine and get almost exactly the same CFM. The way to increase cfm is more suction pressure. The 5HP Oneida I use can go up to 25” water gauge suction. Non variable speed 5HP collectors are more like 14-15”.?

#133899

On Thu, Dec 28, 2023 at 08:02 AM, <pierre.bourassa@...> wrote:

Thanks Aaron. How high yur ceiling need to be to accommodate it? My shop ceiling goes from 8 to 12 ft, but I planned to install the dust collector towards the back which is 8ft.

?
My ceiling is 9’ 2”. ?The Clearvue Pentz EF-5 is 106’ (or 102” with shorter 20 gallon drum). ? I literally have about 4” between the motor and the ceiling:

You can get a slightly shorter 20 gallon drum, but you still need 9 feet to the ceiling. ?You want at least a few inches above the motor for the cooling fan to operate properly. ?The Oneida 5HP collectors are 93” (which would give you 3” clearance). ?The 3HP V-3000 is 88” with a 35 gallon drum.

-Aaron

sjglaser1

#133901

Hi Joe,

I am new to the forum and so appreciate the technical input. I am a severe asthmatic and? good/great? dust collection?is? of?paramount importance to me.? Also my wife hates the dust if it migrates from the shop to the house.

Regarding your Felder KF700SP, does your 5 HP Oneida variable speed collector capture all the dust/fine particles from your Overarm and cabinet?

I have a Felder K700S ordered with an ETA of April, 24 and had the same concern regarding the cabinet restriction? ~4" section.??

I may sell my 3 hp Laguna HEPA DC and upgrade to the Oneida.

Any other recommendations?

(I don't tell folks this but I too am a mechanical engineer- retired with? a PE license?in Alaska. Many engineers give us a bad?rep because some can behave like they know it all!? As you know the PE just means we "know stuff" and I learned long ago that you never know it all. Good engineers continually learn and help others to grow.)

I value your input thanks.

Scott Glaser

6627 Dolan Falls

Flower Mound, TX 76226

sjglaser1@...

945-444-8066

Show quoted text

On Thu, Dec 28, 2023 at 10:33?AM Joe Jensen <joe@...> wrote:

The science of dust collection falls into the mechanical engineering field called fluid dynamics. As an engineer I studied fluid dynamics in college and sadly much of the “wisdom” on the internet is incorrect. I have a white paper I wrote that I’m happy to share with anyone who asks. The short version is this. The smallest opening the air much flow through and the suction pressure of the collector determine for the most part the actual CFM.? Big mains connected to a saw with a small opening inside under the blade will do little to increase the CFM. The way to increase CFM to McRae’s suction pressure at the machine. Bigger duct does this but only to a point as low cfm in a big duct has effectively no resistance.?

I have an Oneida 5HP variable speed dust collector.? It automatically increases the suction when the cfm is low to maximize. I tested the cfm at each machine before and after the variable speed controller and I approximately doubled the CFM at each machine. My Felder KF700SP has a port on the side that is about 5”. But inside the machine the flex hose is about 4” and the cast iron part under the blade has an opening that’s equivalent to about a 3” duct.? I can run 5” mains or 10” mains to the machine and get almost exactly the same CFM. The way to increase cfm is more suction pressure. The 5HP Oneida I use can go up to 25” water gauge suction. Non variable speed 5HP collectors are more like 14-15”.?

#133902

开云体育

Hi to a fellow engineer ?

?

My saw has the riving knife hood which I heavily modified to increase airflow but it still doesn’t get all the dust, especially if cutting a small amount off so the teeth are not fully buried in the wood.? I suspect the overarm guard would help as you can get more airflow.? I have a 6” duct to the saw which splits off to a 4” hard duct over the saw which connects to a 3” flex hose connected to my modified dust shroud.? The overhead duct branches off to a 5” duct to the saw which connects to the 120mm port on the side of the machine.

?

I strongly recommend the Oneida Smart collectors but I am biased as this innovation was my idea and I worked with the founder of Oneida to commercialize it. ?I just shared the idea at a woodworking show and we communicated back and forth for about a year.? I don’t have any financial interest in it but they did upgrade my system with a new fan motor and control system.

?

Basically the more air a fan moves the higher the load on the motor.? Run a collector with no pipe and most motors will overheat in less than a minute.? When the inlet is clogged the motor spins faster and the sound pitch rises but the motor current is at it’s lowest.? The idea was to use a VFD to automatically adjust the motor rpm to keep the current at like 95% of full load rated amps.? There is a max speed cap to keep the fan rpm under max rated current.? So when my collector which has a 7” inlet is connected to my wide belt sander with 7” duct it runs at 60hz and rated rpm.? When connected to a machine with a small actual machine port at the cutting location it speeds up until I hit 95% of FLA.? This resulted in about 2X more cfm on all machines with small ports.

?

The first free step is to modify any machine you can to maximize the passage air flows through.

?

Biil Pentz’s stuff is accurate but sadly most people take too simple of conclusions away.? Bill started with 4” duct and found that cfm was much higher if you use 6”? So now people thing you should run 8” or larger mains and 6” drops to machines with tiny air passages.? The reality is that you need to maximize the port.? Then use Bill’s spreadsheet to estimate the pressure you will have at that port, and then optimize the duct run to keep velocity over 3500 ft per min.? I’ve used Bill’ sheet to model my last shop and measured at every machine and his model is really good.

?

Show quoted text

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of sjglaser1
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2023 12:19 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Selecting a dust collector

?

Hi Joe,

?

I am new to the forum and so appreciate the technical input. I am a severe asthmatic and? good/great? dust collection?is? of?paramount importance to me.? Also my wife hates the dust if it migrates from the shop to the house.

?

Regarding your Felder KF700SP, does your 5 HP Oneida variable speed collector capture all the dust/fine particles from your Overarm and cabinet?

?

I have a Felder K700S ordered with an ETA of April, 24 and had the same concern regarding the cabinet restriction? ~4" section.??

I may sell my 3 hp Laguna HEPA DC and upgrade to the Oneida.

?

Any other recommendations?

?

(I don't tell folks this but I too am a mechanical engineer- retired with? a PE license?in Alaska. Many engineers give us a bad?rep because some can behave like they know it all!? As you know the PE just means we "know stuff" and I learned long ago that you never know it all. Good engineers continually learn and help others to grow.)

?

I value your input thanks.

?

Scott Glaser

6627 Dolan Falls

Flower Mound, TX 76226

sjglaser1@...

945-444-8066

?

On Thu, Dec 28, 2023 at 10:33?AM Joe Jensen <joe@...> wrote:

The science of dust collection falls into the mechanical engineering field called fluid dynamics. As an engineer I studied fluid dynamics in college and sadly much of the “wisdom” on the internet is incorrect. I have a white paper I wrote that I’m happy to share with anyone who asks. The short version is this. The smallest opening the air much flow through and the suction pressure of the collector determine for the most part the actual CFM.? Big mains connected to a saw with a small opening inside under the blade will do little to increase the CFM. The way to increase CFM to McRae’s suction pressure at the machine. Bigger duct does this but only to a point as low cfm in a big duct has effectively no resistance.?

I have an Oneida 5HP variable speed dust collector.? It automatically increases the suction when the cfm is low to maximize. I tested the cfm at each machine before and after the variable speed controller and I approximately doubled the CFM at each machine. My Felder KF700SP has a port on the side that is about 5”. But inside the machine the flex hose is about 4” and the cast iron part under the blade has an opening that’s equivalent to about a 3” duct.? I can run 5” mains or 10” mains to the machine and get almost exactly the same CFM. The way to increase cfm is more suction pressure. The 5HP Oneida I use can go up to 25” water gauge suction. Non variable speed 5HP collectors are more like 14-15”.?

Modifying a Felder blade guard to improve dust collection.docx

dust collection.docx

#133903

Pierre:

I will send you a private message and we will set something up.

J.

sjglaser1

#133904

Thank you Joe,

When I had my?Sawstop, the overarm dust?collector? hose was 2" or something like that and did a poor job,especially MDF. I made my own overblade?dust cover from 3/8" plexiglass, suspended from the ceiling with a cantilever lift arm. (you can see many examples on youtube.) I also added?1/16" side guards on the sides that could slide down to the tabletop if I was edge cutting. This was an amazing?improvement.? I ran 4" hose from the overarm to a 4X8 wye.? Locate the 4" port on the overarm guard just past the apex of the sawblade. I found that the majority?of dust is flung from the top.

My Plan is to 3D print an adapter from the Felder Overarm and attach directly to the plexi-portion. Not sure about the configuration yet until I have the saw.? I will run 4" at least and possibly 5" from the overhead guard.

I am amazed at the lack of dust collection optimization on the Felder saws.? They make a good product overall.?

When I get it complete and tested I'll send you and this forum pics.....

Cheers.

Scott Glaser

6627 Dolan Falls

Flower Mound, TX 76226

sjglaser1@...

945-444-8066

Show quoted text

On Thu, Dec 28, 2023 at 2:17?PM Joe Jensen <joe@...> wrote:

Hi to a fellow engineer ?
?
My saw has the riving knife hood which I heavily modified to increase airflow but it still doesn’t get all the dust, especially if cutting a small amount off so the teeth are not fully buried in the wood.? I suspect the overarm guard would help as you can get more airflow.? I have a 6” duct to the saw which splits off to a 4” hard duct over the saw which connects to a 3” flex hose connected to my modified dust shroud.? The overhead duct branches off to a 5” duct to the saw which connects to the 120mm port on the side of the machine.
?
I strongly recommend the Oneida Smart collectors but I am biased as this innovation was my idea and I worked with the founder of Oneida to commercialize it.? I just shared the idea at a woodworking show and we communicated back and forth for about a year.? I don’t have any financial interest in it but they did upgrade my system with a new fan motor and control system.
?
Basically the more air a fan moves the higher the load on the motor.? Run a collector with no pipe and most motors will overheat in less than a minute.? When the inlet is clogged the motor spins faster and the sound pitch rises but the motor current is at it’s lowest.? The idea was to use a VFD to automatically adjust the motor rpm to keep the current at like 95% of full load rated amps.? There is a max speed cap to keep the fan rpm under max rated current.? So when my collector which has a 7” inlet is connected to my wide belt sander with 7” duct it runs at 60hz and rated rpm.? When connected to a machine with a small actual machine port at the cutting location it speeds up until I hit 95% of FLA.? This resulted in about 2X more cfm on all machines with small ports.
?
The first free step is to modify any machine you can to maximize the passage air flows through.
?
Biil Pentz’s stuff is accurate but sadly most people take too simple of conclusions away.? Bill started with 4” duct and found that cfm was much higher if you use 6”? So now people thing you should run 8” or larger mains and 6” drops to machines with tiny air passages.? The reality is that you need to maximize the port.? Then use Bill’s spreadsheet to estimate the pressure you will have at that port, and then optimize the duct run to keep velocity over 3500 ft per min.? I’ve used Bill’ sheet to model my last shop and measured at every machine and his model is really good.
?
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of sjglaser1
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2023 12:19 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Selecting a dust collector
?
Hi Joe,
?
I am new to the forum and so appreciate the technical input. I am a severe asthmatic and? good/great? dust collection?is? of?paramount importance to me.? Also my wife hates the dust if it migrates from the shop to the house.
?
Regarding your Felder KF700SP, does your 5 HP Oneida variable speed collector capture all the dust/fine particles from your Overarm and cabinet?
?
I have a Felder K700S ordered with an ETA of April, 24 and had the same concern regarding the cabinet restriction? ~4" section.??
I may sell my 3 hp Laguna HEPA DC and upgrade to the Oneida.
?
Any other recommendations?
?
(I don't tell folks this but I too am a mechanical engineer- retired with? a PE license?in Alaska. Many engineers give us a bad?rep because some can behave like they know it all!? As you know the PE just means we "know stuff" and I learned long ago that you never know it all. Good engineers continually learn and help others to grow.)
?
I value your input thanks.
?
Scott Glaser
6627 Dolan Falls
Flower Mound, TX 76226
sjglaser1@...
945-444-8066
?
?
On Thu, Dec 28, 2023 at 10:33?AM Joe Jensen <joe@...> wrote:
The science of dust collection falls into the mechanical engineering field called fluid dynamics. As an engineer I studied fluid dynamics in college and sadly much of the “wisdom” on the internet is incorrect. I have a white paper I wrote that I’m happy to share with anyone who asks. The short version is this. The smallest opening the air much flow through and the suction pressure of the collector determine for the most part the actual CFM.? Big mains connected to a saw with a small opening inside under the blade will do little to increase the CFM. The way to increase CFM to McRae’s suction pressure at the machine. Bigger duct does this but only to a point as low cfm in a big duct has effectively no resistance.?

I have an Oneida 5HP variable speed dust collector.? It automatically increases the suction when the cfm is low to maximize. I tested the cfm at each machine before and after the variable speed controller and I approximately doubled the CFM at each machine. My Felder KF700SP has a port on the side that is about 5”. But inside the machine the flex hose is about 4” and the cast iron part under the blade has an opening that’s equivalent to about a 3” duct.? I can run 5” mains or 10” mains to the machine and get almost exactly the same CFM. The way to increase cfm is more suction pressure. The 5HP Oneida I use can go up to 25” water gauge suction. Non variable speed 5HP collectors are more like 14-15”.?

#133905

On Thu, Dec 28, 2023 at 12:15 PM, Joe Jensen wrote:

?So now people thing you should run 8” or larger mains and 6” drops to machines with tiny air passages.? The reality is that you need to maximize the port.? Then use Bill’s spreadsheet to estimate the pressure you will have at that port, and then optimize the duct run to keep velocity over 3500 ft per min.? I’ve used Bill’ sheet to model my last shop and measured at every machine and his model is really good.

?

You have to be careful on your main duct size. ?I considered this in my setup. ?If you look at my pictures, I have a very short section from the collector where the main is 8” duct (right before it connects to the cyclone). ?Then it branches/splits off into different 6” main ducts. ? You have to make sure you have enough velocity in your system to pull the sawdust horizontally along the main duct. ?This prevents debris from building up in the duct (this can be a fire hazard). ?If you have a 5HP dust collector and expect to run more than one tool at a time, then an 8” main duct can be good — to a certain point. ?If you are running a really long 8” main duct and then do a 6” drop at the end, that’s not really a good design because you likely will not have enough air velocity in that 8” section of main duct to keep it clear of dust/debris (does this make sense?).

-Aaron

#133908

To add anything that might be helpful, I am currently in initial installation trials of a Oneida Supercell Turbo for a specific situation. It top?dead heads in the 90+ in.H2O range (WOW!), the tradeoff is that the head/flow curve puts it usefully in the 400-600cfm range for most tool?ports on this setup. It requires specialty hose to withstand the suction levels.?

I also very much appreciate the self-cleaning filtration feature built-in after feeling the pain of the "oops too full" aftermath of my cyclone filters (another reason I'm careful not to plane a full 5mm cut on wide boards on my AD941, but that's another story)

So far it has been massively impressive at point-source collection. But also not nearly as exciting at working-area collection. It's just different circulating 1200 cfm+ versus 400+ cfm in a work area. To points I recall from Pentz's documentation, that additional recirculating flow in a work area is a big factor in reclaiming the fugitive?dust that doesn't get caught the first time at the source. It's a trade off with the same power capacities - head vs. flow between the two systems.

I will say the biggest improvement ever made to my multiple clearview setups was adopting 6" drops and 6" flex all the way to the tool ports over?6" drops and 4" flex I originally thought was adequate. The flow performance is mathematically improved as expected, but in practice it takes a machine like a bandsaw from 70% dust captured to 90+% at the source. Another example is that you can lay a 6" open hose?on the floor working with a router on a work table above, and the flow visibly alters the trajectory of falling particulates. That never happened with a 4" hose unless already close by.