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HP needed for heavy cutter?

 

One or our RR members contacted Train Mountain in Oregon to see how they milled plastic ties. Sort of a combination of ideas presented here. ?Two routers on an overhead trolly. Fun to see a solution from people who have rails and know how to weld. ?Dust collection would be a great addition.

Screen Shot 2021-02-02 at 1.01.10 PM.png

 

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Thanks Mark and Glen. ?

Mark, very nice visual, and if your cycle time is right, a reasonable length job.

Even if we can’t get 60 ties in a frame,, say 20. still only 8 hours of work.

Glen Christensen, ?Glad u like the website for . ?Tank collector and rairload foujnder was Jacques Littlefield, who passed 12 years ago at age?
 

Mike,
?I had a chance to take a look at your link and I have to say that is fascinating. I had no idea that That was a shout away from my house. The only thing I knew about was the guy that collected tanks. I did get to see part of that years ago. I can't remember his name and not even sure if he is still alive. Very cool what your group has done.

My simpleton thought would be the box May be 10ft w/ a router template and tree guys. I think it would progress pretty fast. The hardest part of this however resetting all that track.
My back is hurting just thinking about that part.
Glen
Alpine Moulding and Millwork Inc.
Mail: ?? P.O. Box 257
?????????? Avery, CA. 95224
Shop: 441 Pennsylvania Gulch Road
????????? Murphys, CA. 95247
????????? 650-678-3137
LIC # 707507


On Fri, Jan 29, 2021 at 10:40 AM TMichael WARD via <tmikko=[email protected]> wrote:
Great stuff ! What a rich resource you guys are.

Here are some thoughts on your excellent replies.
First, Mark T's dwg is correct for the ties. They are 1.5" thick, ~ 16 inches long and 2-1/2" high.? The material is recycled, molded plastic.?
The specs on spacing of the grooves is 7-5/8" +.092, -0.? Or, better said, 7.667 +- .046 if my math is correct.?
Jonathan M: The length of the ties are nominal, so making one cut and flipping them means you handle them twice, and any error in length is translated into an error on spacing.
Hence my desire to make both cuts in one pass.

George W; 18,500 pieces, at 3 per foot means we are refurbishing 6,175' of track with wood ties. Our RR has about 1.8 miles of track, and the older track is on wooden ties, which we are replacing.
Scale for narrow gage is 2.5"/ ft, for standard gage is 1.5"/ ft, so both can run on the same track.
The precision required is to keep the engine wheels on the track, especially on curves, and with variability introduced during th making of the track panels.
You can visit our website at if you want to see the operation.

The CNC machine idea is great, maybe the best, but we are a volunteer organization with a low budget, so looking for reliable, safe, low cost solutions.
We do have folks with excellent metal working capabilities, so making a dedicated machine is not a challenge.
It would be like the Woodmaster that Imram suggested. By the way, the right sized Woodmaster has? 5 hp motor.
Interesting idea to buy one used and resell.

A router table with two routers is a good idea, much easier to make than the dedicated machine.
Mark T.: On a formica (slippery) table with a fence at right angles also good idea. I was thinking of the frame idea so one team could be loading a frame, another pushing it through, third disassembling.
Good choice on the router bits.

Brian: Rebate cutters are also a good idea, because the inside dimension of the cut must be precise, but the outside cut can be a little large, so 50mm or 2" would work
David B. We are vols, so no pay, it is boring, but fun to figure out.

Thanks again.? If this inspires more ideas, I'd love to hear them.

Mike Ward

 

Mike, your idea of frames and several people would speed it up further.??

I just happen to have railroad ties that are 1/4 scale of 2-1/2 scale, and I mocked it up.? A sheet of melamine plywood, a couple routers screwed underneath, a stick of wood for a fixed fence, and three cycling frames to push a batch of pieces through.? One or two people load frame, one person pushes through and a third and maybe a fourth pulls and stacks from the offload side.? You could build this in a few hours probably, for free except the cost of two routers bits (surely you can have the routers in the shop or among members, and some 2x4 scraps and a sheet of plywood, maybe you buy a $30 melamine sheet for slipperiness)? ?

If you have 3 or 4 people working concurrently, they could have a loaded frame ready as soon as you've pushed the last one through.? Your cycle time per frame could be perhaps 30 seconds.? 18,000 would take 2.5 hours at that rate.
 

You might consider laying as many as will fit edge to edge and on a long table, butted to a stop on one end.? Clamp the stack horizontally.? Lay over and affix a jig to guide a routers with a surfacing bit and rout out the dadoes.? The jig would look like the ones made to surface large slabs, but simpler as the router does not need to cut across the entire surface, just two tracks.? The cut would be best done in two passes for each depth of cut: down one side and back up cutting the other side.? Depending on the router and bit size, a full dept cut might be possible.? With two such workstation and two workers cutting, one from each side on first station, a third or fourth person could unload the newly notched ties and load up with blanks on the second station.

It would not be the most fun job to work on, but I think it is a low tech and quick way to go about getting them all prepared for the rails.
 

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Mike,

I searched, there was one in NW on craigslist in Jan but the post is deleted. I use this search engine:


I wonder if you can rent one from an owner. Give them a new belt and infeed outfeed rollers plus a fee. It is not doing much work.

If you are a not for profit, use your local TV station to put a call out. Especially if this is something open to public, some RR enthusiast may step up. When I was leading my religious community, I learned about opportunities to use your local media.

Imran

On Jan 29, 2021, at 3:28 PM, imranindiana via groups.io <imranindiana@...> wrote:

?Mike,

I sold my 718 couple of yrs ago for around $2400. So anyone selling likely will go to craigslist first. That is what I did.

If slot depth is important than milling from bottom will be optimal. Milling from top will rely on tie height to give you same depth on all. So maybe woodmaster or like will not work for you.

Unless you are interested in routers, any moulder should work similar to woodmaster. I know there is at least one knock off of woodmaster.

I have never milled plastic so if you go moulder route, I would certainly call the company to verify the project.

Imran

On Jan 29, 2021, at 3:06 PM, TMichael WARD via groups.io <tmikko@...> wrote:

?Hi Imram.

I checked ebay and didn’t see any Woodmasters. Any ideas where I should look? I’m in California.

Slot depth is fairly important, tie height is not. We build track panels 10 feet in length, take them to the road bed; pour washed gravel over them, then pull up to final height, so height variability is not a problem.
 

Mike,

I sold my 718 couple of yrs ago for around $2400. So anyone selling likely will go to craigslist first. That is what I did.

If slot depth is important than milling from bottom will be optimal. Milling from top will rely on tie height to give you same depth on all. So maybe woodmaster or like will not work for you.

Unless you are interested in routers, any moulder should work similar to woodmaster. I know there is at least one knock off of woodmaster.

I have never milled plastic so if you go moulder route, I would certainly call the company to verify the project.

Imran

On Jan 29, 2021, at 3:06 PM, TMichael WARD via groups.io <tmikko@...> wrote:

?Hi Imram.

I checked ebay and didn’t see any Woodmasters. Any ideas where I should look? I’m in California.

Slot depth is fairly important, tie height is not. We build track panels 10 feet in length, take them to the road bed; pour washed gravel over them, then pull up to final height, so height variability is not a problem.
 

Hi Imram.

I checked ebay and didn’t see any Woodmasters. Any ideas where I should look? I’m in California.

Slot depth is fairly important, tie height is not. We build track panels 10 feet in length, take them to the road bed; pour washed gravel over them, then pull up to final height, so height variability is not a problem.
 

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Mike W,

Just FYI, Woodmaster has a moulding option that allows you to add a router on the infeed and another on the outfeed.

Woodmaster offers a poly bed for mouldings but you can just buy a sheet and screw it down to the slots in the infeed and outfeed tables.

Then make a sled with poly bottom. On top of sled, a fixed fence in front and a vice fence in the rear. The fences can be as tall as your workpiece or a smidge lower. Ends of fences will get milled. Runners, one on each side, will register each ties side to side.

My 718 had 5HP motor. You may go thru infeed and outfeed rollers but they were $20 a piece, so fairly cheap to replace.

BTW, milling from top will remove variation in ties thickness and reflect that in groove depth. Milling from bottom will give you fixed groove depth but variation in thickness of ties will remain. Not sure if one is better than the other of maybe it is don’t care.

Imran

On Jan 29, 2021, at 1:40 PM, TMichael WARD via groups.io <tmikko@...> wrote:

?Great stuff ! What a rich resource you guys are.

Here are some thoughts on your excellent replies.
First, Mark T's dwg is correct for the ties. They are 1.5" thick, ~ 16 inches long and 2-1/2" high.? The material is recycled, molded plastic.?
The specs on spacing of the grooves is 7-5/8" +.092, -0.? Or, better said, 7.667 +- .046 if my math is correct.?
Jonathan M: The length of the ties are nominal, so making one cut and flipping them means you handle them twice, and any error in length is translated into an error on spacing.
Hence my desire to make both cuts in one pass.

George W; 18,500 pieces, at 3 per foot means we are refurbishing 6,175' of track with wood ties. Our RR has about 1.8 miles of track, and the older track is on wooden ties, which we are replacing.
Scale for narrow gage is 2.5"/ ft, for standard gage is 1.5"/ ft, so both can run on the same track.
The precision required is to keep the engine wheels on the track, especially on curves, and with variability introduced during th making of the track panels.
You can visit our website at pvarr.org if you want to see the operation.

The CNC machine idea is great, maybe the best, but we are a volunteer organization with a low budget, so looking for reliable, safe, low cost solutions.
We do have folks with excellent metal working capabilities, so making a dedicated machine is not a challenge.
It would be like the Woodmaster that Imram suggested. By the way, the right sized Woodmaster has? 5 hp motor.
Interesting idea to buy one used and resell.

A router table with two routers is a good idea, much easier to make than the dedicated machine.
Mark T.: On a formica (slippery) table with a fence at right angles also good idea. I was thinking of the frame idea so one team could be loading a frame, another pushing it through, third disassembling.
Good choice on the router bits.

Brian: Rebate cutters are also a good idea, because the inside dimension of the cut must be precise, but the outside cut can be a little large, so 50mm or 2" would work
David B. We are vols, so no pay, it is boring, but fun to figure out.

Thanks again.? If this inspires more ideas, I'd love to hear them.

Mike Ward

 

Great stuff ! What a rich resource you guys are.

Here are some thoughts on your excellent replies.
First, Mark T's dwg is correct for the ties. They are 1.5" thick, ~ 16 inches long and 2-1/2" high.? The material is recycled, molded plastic.?
The specs on spacing of the grooves is 7-5/8" +.092, -0.? Or, better said, 7.667 +- .046 if my math is correct.?
Jonathan M: The length of the ties are nominal, so making one cut and flipping them means you handle them twice, and any error in length is translated into an error on spacing.
Hence my desire to make both cuts in one pass.

George W; 18,500 pieces, at 3 per foot means we are refurbishing 6,175' of track with wood ties. Our RR has about 1.8 miles of track, and the older track is on wooden ties, which we are replacing.
Scale for narrow gage is 2.5"/ ft, for standard gage is 1.5"/ ft, so both can run on the same track.
The precision required is to keep the engine wheels on the track, especially on curves, and with variability introduced during th making of the track panels.
You can visit our website at pvarr.org if you want to see the operation.

The CNC machine idea is great, maybe the best, but we are a volunteer organization with a low budget, so looking for reliable, safe, low cost solutions.
We do have folks with excellent metal working capabilities, so making a dedicated machine is not a challenge.
It would be like the Woodmaster that Imram suggested. By the way, the right sized Woodmaster has? 5 hp motor.
Interesting idea to buy one used and resell.

A router table with two routers is a good idea, much easier to make than the dedicated machine.
Mark T.: On a formica (slippery) table with a fence at right angles also good idea. I was thinking of the frame idea so one team could be loading a frame, another pushing it through, third disassembling.
Good choice on the router bits.

Brian: Rebate cutters are also a good idea, because the inside dimension of the cut must be precise, but the outside cut can be a little large, so 50mm or 2" would work
David B. We are vols, so no pay, it is boring, but fun to figure out.

Thanks again.? If this inspires more ideas, I'd love to hear them.

Mike Ward
 

Standard tie spacing is ~20", so at this scale would be ~4", which yields 6,000'.

That said, this is likely a model of an older railway when tie spacing was less standardized, so it could vary considerably.
george Woodg
 

Mike,
I have to ask. How many lineal feet of track will 18,000 ties make? I’m guessing 6000’. Anybody else have any guesses? Am I even close?
George Gerstner

On Jan 29, 2021, at 8:53 AM, imranindiana via groups.io <imranindiana@...> wrote:

?Do not want to belabor woodmaster like moulder option but you can mould and trim ends in one pass. potentially saving you handling 18K pieces twice.

Imran

On Jan 29, 2021, at 5:28 AM, Jonathan Martens <jonathan@...> wrote:

?On 29/01/2021 03:03, TMichael WARD via groups.io wrote:

Hi, I need to build a single purpose tool to cut two grooves about 3/32 deep, 2" wide, and 7-3/4" apart at the inside (for RR ties in a 2-1/2" scale model RR club). I'm thinking of using stacked dados on a long shaft with a 7-3/4" spacer. mount with pillow blocks add pully and motor, Bolt to underside of a formica table with holes in it, then slide the plastic ties, say 20 in a frame or sled, over the two blades protruding through the table. Sorry, sounds complicated.

My question is, if I go with 8" dados, I need 4 or 5 sets at 5 lbs each maybe 21 lbs. What horsepower would it take to start that stack. Needs to go about 3450 RPM.
Or, I could use 6" dados at 5000 RPM, only about 6 lbs.
Why not use one rebate cutter and multiple passes? That would save you a dedicated device and you could do it on almost any shaper or dado capable (slider) saw.


1. Cut the material to width of your ties and as long as you possible can

2. Setup for the first rebate by setting the correct height for the shaper from the outer edge of your workpiece/set fence of saw and feed all your stock

3. Flip stock by 180 degrees and feed again to make the second rebate referencing the other side and feed all your stock

4. If the rebate is not wide enough repeat step 2 and 3 (to readjust your shaper or fence when using dado on saw) until you have reached the desired width

5. Now cut the material orthagonal to the orientation of the rebates to make the individual ties


If you use a cutter with a width close to 1" but smaller than 2" you only need two passes for each rebate. WIth a shaper and a feeder this should be done pretty efficiently.


Kind regards,


Jonathan
 

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Why not set your dado in your slide using both the cross cut and rip fence as stops – awful lot of passes hogging it out I know.? The other suggestion someone made re setting up a CNC to make the passes would allow doing it on a handful at once depending on the bed size

?

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of mark thomas
Sent: Friday, January 29, 2021 10:03 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] HP needed for heavy cutter?

?

I believe attached sketch (not to scale) is what Mike needs -- ie, railroad ties (slots align the rails the proper distance apart).? Not really well suited to a moulder.

18,000 sounds like sort of a lot, but it's still just one batch.? It doesn't make sense to spend more time setting up a fancy machine than the time it will save processing the one batch.

This is also obviously trivially simple to do with a shaper, but two passes required.? It probably makes more sense to just buckle down and face a few days of non-stop, dull, repetitive work, rather than build something.? Let's say?you gang up 10 at a time and slide them through.? Suppose it takes 30 seconds load up 10 pieces, 5 seconds to run back and forth, 15 seconds to flip the 10 pieces end to end, another few seconds to run the second slot through, but not back (helper unloads on the shaper outfeed side after second pass).? That's about a minute per 10 pieces, which is 30 hours for 18,000.? Let's say you budget double that time, it's still less time than building a custom machine with shafts and pulleys, etc.? ?A double router table like I described could be built in a day, and might halve the processing time.?
?
 

I believe attached sketch (not to scale) is what Mike needs -- ie, railroad ties (slots align the rails the proper distance apart).? Not really well suited to a moulder.

18,000 sounds like sort of a lot, but it's still just one batch.? It doesn't make sense to spend more time setting up a fancy machine than the time it will save processing the one batch.

This is also obviously trivially simple to do with a shaper, but two passes required.? It probably makes more sense to just buckle down and face a few days of non-stop, dull, repetitive work, rather than build something.? Let's say?you gang up 10 at a time and slide them through.? Suppose it takes 30 seconds load up 10 pieces, 5 seconds to run back and forth, 15 seconds to flip the 10 pieces end to end, another few seconds to run the second slot through, but not back (helper unloads on the shaper outfeed side after second pass).? That's about a minute per 10 pieces, which is 30 hours for 18,000.? Let's say you budget double that time, it's still less time than building a custom machine with shafts and pulleys, etc.? ?A double router table like I described could be built in a day, and might halve the processing time.?
?
 

Do not want to belabor woodmaster like moulder option but you can mould and trim ends in one pass. potentially saving you handling 18K pieces twice.

Imran

On Jan 29, 2021, at 5:28 AM, Jonathan Martens <jonathan@...> wrote:

?On 29/01/2021 03:03, TMichael WARD via groups.io wrote:

Hi, I need to build a single purpose tool to cut two grooves about 3/32 deep, 2" wide, and 7-3/4" apart at the inside (for RR ties in a 2-1/2" scale model RR club). I'm thinking of using stacked dados on a long shaft with a 7-3/4" spacer. mount with pillow blocks add pully and motor, Bolt to underside of a formica table with holes in it, then slide the plastic ties, say 20 in a frame or sled, over the two blades protruding through the table. Sorry, sounds complicated.

My question is, if I go with 8" dados, I need 4 or 5 sets at 5 lbs each maybe 21 lbs. What horsepower would it take to start that stack. Needs to go about 3450 RPM.
Or, I could use 6" dados at 5000 RPM, only about 6 lbs.
Why not use one rebate cutter and multiple passes? That would save you a dedicated device and you could do it on almost any shaper or dado capable (slider) saw.


1. Cut the material to width of your ties and as long as you possible can

2. Setup for the first rebate by setting the correct height for the shaper from the outer edge of your workpiece/set fence of saw and feed all your stock

3. Flip stock by 180 degrees and feed again to make the second rebate referencing the other side and feed all your stock

4. If the rebate is not wide enough repeat step 2 and 3 (to readjust your shaper or fence when using dado on saw) until you have reached the desired width

5. Now cut the material orthagonal to the orientation of the rebates to make the individual ties


If you use a cutter with a width close to 1" but smaller than 2" you only need two passes for each rebate. WIth a shaper and a feeder this should be done pretty efficiently.


Kind regards,


Jonathan
 

On 29/01/2021 03:03, TMichael WARD via groups.io wrote:

Hi, I need to build a single purpose tool to cut two grooves about 3/32 deep, 2" wide, and 7-3/4" apart at the inside (for RR ties in a 2-1/2" scale model RR club). ?I'm thinking of using stacked dados on a long shaft with a 7-3/4" spacer. mount with pillow blocks?add pully and motor, ?Bolt to underside of a formica table with holes in it, then slide the plastic ties, say 20 in a frame or sled, over the two blades protruding through the table. ?Sorry, sounds complicated.

My question is, if I go with 8" dados, I need 4 or 5 sets at 5 lbs each maybe 21 lbs. ?What horsepower would it take to start that stack. Needs to go about 3450 RPM.
Or, I could use 6" dados at 5000 RPM, only about 6 lbs.
Why not use one rebate cutter and multiple passes? That would save you a dedicated device and you could do it on almost any shaper or dado capable (slider) saw.


1. Cut the material to width of your ties and as long as you possible can

2. Setup for the first rebate by setting the correct height for the shaper from the outer edge of your workpiece/set fence of saw and feed all your stock

3. Flip stock by 180 degrees and feed again to make the second rebate referencing the other side and feed all your stock

4. If the rebate is not wide enough repeat step 2 and 3 (to readjust your shaper or fence when using dado on saw) until you have reached the desired width

5. Now cut the material orthagonal to the orientation of the rebates to make the individual ties


If you use a cutter with a width close to 1" but smaller than 2" you only need two passes for each rebate. WIth a shaper and a feeder this should be done pretty efficiently.


Kind regards,


Jonathan
 

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Glen,

Got it. ?You’r’e on the schedule as soon as this pandemic is under control, the roads open over the pass south, the California wildfires stay in remission, and Quince restaurant reopens in SFO. ?Until then, check out my new pole dancing class videos on Parler.


On Jan 28, 2021, at 10:44 PM, Glen Christensen <grchris1966@...> wrote:

I don't want to hijack the thread but.
To David B, I sent you a PM, not sure if you got it or not but thank you for the videos to help me work out the issues with my saw. Too damn cold right now but I will give it my best when the shop is a bit warmer.
On a side note, the weather event we are having now is remarkable. I have never seen this much snow here since I was a kid. Should be records amounts I assume off this storm front.
Glen
Alpine Moulding and Millwork Inc.
Mail: ?? P.O. Box 257
?????????? Avery, CA. 95224
Shop: 441 Pennsylvania Gulch Road
????????? Murphys, CA. 95247
????????? 650-678-3137
LIC # 707507


On Thu, Jan 28, 2021 at 10:25 PM david@... via <david=[email protected]> wrote:
I ?hope you are getting well paid for this.? Sounds boring as hell to me.?

David Best - Sent from my iPad

On Jan 28, 2021, at 6:16 PM, TMichael WARD via <tmikko=[email protected]> wrote:

?Forgot to add some details. The spacing needs to be precise between the grooves, and we need to make 18,000 (thousand) of these, hence the dedicated machine.



 

You're not removing much material here, you don't need a ton of horsepower.? ?It's the equivalent of a 1/2" diameter router bit cutting 3/8" deep.

These ties are presumably about 3"x3"x16".? I think most of the work is moving the material around.? Loading a dozen or two on a sled, pushing the sled, etc.? If you did it on 4'x8' CNC router, you'd spend 10 minutes loading the table with 96 ties, 30 seconds cutting them, and 10 minutes unloading.

I think I would approach this as a router table project.? Mount two routers with bits like this:



I don't think you need a sled.? ?A low-friction infeed table with a fence, and a push tool that is square to the fence, is all you need.? ?Just put about a dozen ties on the infeed table up against the fence, and push them through.? Someone picks and stacks from the outfeed side while you load the next dozen.?

Depending on the density of the ties, gravity may be adequate downward pressure, but if not, you just need something to apply modest pressure.? You could do something with wheels, but you could also use a couple $2 plastic featherboards, or just lay a board of the appropriate weight on top the stack you're cutting.?

Assuming it takes about one minute to load up and push through a batch of a dozen, it's 25 hours of work for 18,000.
 

I don't want to hijack the thread but.
To David B, I sent you a PM, not sure if you got it or not but thank you for the videos to help me work out the issues with my saw. Too damn cold right now but I will give it my best when the shop is a bit warmer.
On a side note, the weather event we are having now is remarkable. I have never seen this much snow here since I was a kid. Should be records amounts I assume off this storm front.
Glen
Alpine Moulding and Millwork Inc.
Mail: ?? P.O. Box 257
?????????? Avery, CA. 95224
Shop: 441 Pennsylvania Gulch Road
????????? Murphys, CA. 95247
????????? 650-678-3137
LIC # 707507


On Thu, Jan 28, 2021 at 10:25 PM david@... via <david=[email protected]> wrote:
I ?hope you are getting well paid for this.? Sounds boring as hell to me.?

David Best - Sent from my iPad

On Jan 28, 2021, at 6:16 PM, TMichael WARD via <tmikko=[email protected]> wrote:

?Forgot to add some details. The spacing needs to be precise between the grooves, and we need to make 18,000 (thousand) of these, hence the dedicated machine.

 

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I ?hope you are getting well paid for this. ?Sounds boring as hell to me.?

David Best - Sent from my iPad

On Jan 28, 2021, at 6:16 PM, TMichael WARD via groups.io <tmikko@...> wrote:

?Forgot to add some details. The spacing needs to be precise between the grooves, and we need to make 18,000 (thousand) of these, hence the dedicated machine.

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