|
Steve just posted a great video about cutting lumber on a slider:
?
https://youtu.be/CbAYMidaUjY?si=xm24gvU6JLloCySP
|
Ok, so if you're talking face frames, then do as Mac suggests (& i stated in my other post). Rip over size and dress. I will assume your material is 4/4? Rip first, dress second. You can also rough cut material into shorter lengths, cutting your longest lengths from the straightest pieces. This of course will be more time consuming, but may be necessary if you material is less than ideal in its straightness. The problem you may run into depending on the species, and how it has been dried, is the stresses in the board might result in very bent pieces after ripping them down in size. This can vary from one board to another, and from one batch to another. Based on how much each board moves, you might need to make a wider rip, so you can get a straight edge on the jointer. Next joint the face, then the edge of each board. They are now ready to run through the thickness planer to get them perfectly parallel in width and thickness and exactly to the required size. Being face frames, some amount of bowing might be acceptable, in which case, you might be better off dressing all the material in the longest lengths possible, and then cutting to the required lengths. Remember, always cut your longest lengths first!!!
?
Hope this helps.
Bryce
--
https://www.brycecomerwoodworks.com/
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHdrRaAZd_pOa7wwbdNPUEw
|
Thank you for the replies...John and Imran, great suggestions and simple and should do the trick!? Am going to try this method along with the BS or rough cut on the slider and then finishing on the JP.
?
?
|
I use the same method as Imran. John love you Gizmo! thanks for sharing.
Hullo all- very informative thread, thanks to all the contributors! I learn a lot here.
I recall one member posting that they precisely cut a square of MDF, set it against the left fence, and now you have a registration surface for ripping narrower pieces. (Can clamp the mdf to the outrigger so it doesn’t shift). I made one of 3/4”, 500mm square, so I can use the flip stop to set rip width by adding 500. Works really well and as long as the two ‘good’ sides touch nothing else, has stayed true for a lot of use. Costs nothing :-)
Cheers
--
Daniel Day
Kitchener, Ontario, Canada
-- Kindest Regards
Jonathan Samways
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|
Hullo all- very informative thread, thanks to all the contributors! I learn a lot here.
I recall one member posting that they precisely cut a square of MDF, set it against the left fence, and now you have a registration surface for ripping narrower pieces. (Can clamp the mdf to the outrigger so it doesn’t shift). I made one of 3/4”, 500mm square, so I can use the flip stop to set rip width by adding 500. Works really well and as long as the two ‘good’ sides touch nothing else, has stayed true for a lot of use. Costs nothing :-)
Cheers
--
Daniel Day
Kitchener, Ontario, Canada
|
For Lucky’s overhang method, I just use a block of wood with a pencil mark indicating the cut line. Push block against end of the slider and at least cover the pencil line with material being cut. Quick and easy.
I also installed an overhead laser to assist with the first rip on rough lumber. It used to be overhead on my KF700 and worked great but it is on the wall perpendicular to the saw now for my K975. It is not in line so it casts an oblique line. This means it only works if it is calibrated with same thickness as the mattering cut. On my list of things to fix.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Oct 28, 2024, at 8:58?PM, David Luckensmeyer via groups.io <david@...> wrote: ?
Hi John:
?
You make good points about both the use of a bandsaw and thicknessing on edge. And with regard to the slightly ‘out of square’ issue. It is very minor like you say, but enough to notice. When it matters (e.g.
for gluing up, joinery work, kumiko, etc.) I will always make two rip cuts. The first cut is slightly wide, and the second cut for that perfect rip where the material does not ride up on the slider.
?
(Yes, yes, I know this is hard on the blade and is probably a bad habit. But it works for me.)
?
There is another technique that I’m not sure has been mentioned much on FOG. I sometimes parallel rip on the slider without a parallel fence by measuring the overhang of material. Here are the steps:
?
- Take any material, clamp it down to the sliding table, and cut it with the blade intended for ripping (e.g. 3.2/2.2 x 30mm).
?
- Do not unclamp the material. Now take a steel ruler or callipers and carefully measure the overhang of material in relation to the right edge of the
sliding table. For my saw, Kappa 400, the overhang is exactly 5.5mm. This is the distance between the right side of the sliding extrusion, and the left edge of my 3.2/2.2mm blade.
?
- Armed with the offset of 5.5mm (or whatever yours is), and with the slider retracted, place the first edge of whatever you’re trying to dimension on
the slider and position it so it overhangs by roughly 5-6mm off the right edge of the sliding table.
?
- Clamp the board in place and use an accurate steel ruler or callipers to measure the offset. If it is less than 5.5mm, then the blade will not cut. If
it is 6mm, then the blade will remove 0.5mm of material. You get the idea (hopefully).
?
- Both ends of the board must be checked to ensure it overhangs by more than 5.5mm. Adjust as needed and reclamp. Make the cut.
?
- If you’re planning on a trim cut only (i.e. not taking off much), make sure to account for any bow in the material. If the bow is outwards or convex,
then the blade will engage at either measured end, and simply take more stock out of the middle (where the bow is largest). But if the bow is inwards or concave, you need to make sure the entire length of material is overhanging the slider by more than 5.5mm.
?
- I do this procedure where I don’t have a lot of width to work with and I want to trim the minimum amount to achieve a straight line rip. If there is
plenty of width, I just eye-ball it. I guess some of us (not me) have a laser and just use that.
?
- If the stock is not too long (e.g. less than 1200mm) I simply set the rip fence and parallel rip in the conventional way. I’m assuming a small sample
size here. It is far less tiring and safer to take the time to set up proper parallel fence/s for repetitive rips for larger jobs.
?
- If the stock is long, say 2-3m, but I only need to rip one, I’ll do some mental arithmetic and do a parallel rip on the basis of the overhang amount.
I can get very close using this method (at least down to 0.2mm). If the board has to be exactly parallel, I always break out Brian’s parallel fence, calibrate it using my magnetic ‘calibration device’ so that it agrees exactly with my cross-cut fence stop.
And parallel rip that way.
?
Again, I hope this helps.
?
?
Another method for ripping is skipping the circular saw, ripping to slightly over width on a band saw, and running the boards on edge through a thicknesser. That idea has been presented in this group before,
so I do not take credit for it. I struggled with that idea until I acquired a band saw that would make clean and straight cuts.
Once a board is flat and uniformly thick, I will joint one edge and rip a piece off the edge. If ripping several pieces from one board, I just keep jointing and ripping until done.
When my saw was new and I was still trying to use it like a cabinet saw, I found that the slight difference in elevation between the cast iron and the slider was enough to throw the cut edge out of square.
Not by much, but by enough to be noticeable in some cases.
John Hinman
Boise ID
K700S and A941
|
Hi David:
?
I’m pleased there was something helpful in there.
?
I’m guilty of not even thinking about sheet goods, and yes, I do use primarily solid wood. Bryce makes the excellent point about straight line ripping which is important of course.
?
Your question about width is important, and it relates to length as well. I’m quite happy to rip short stock (up to 1200mm long) on the right side of the blade up to 300mm or even a bit more. But at some point
there is a change-over:
?
- The width becomes more difficult to handle when trying to feed material through manually (right side of blade).
?
- The width becomes sufficient to register accurately against the crosscut fence making ripping quick and easy (left side of blade) without many clamps
or jigs or fixtures.
?
Examples:
?
Cutting larger sheets of processed material are nearly always done on the left side of the blade. Material is more often wide enough to register against the cross cut fence. The exception comes for ripping
smaller dimensions (less than 300mm) which I almost always do on the right side. For short, narrow dimensions, I tend to switch to the right side, unless there’s a lot of repetition, in which case setting up for parallel ripping is worth the effort.
?
Long stock, 2m and longer, I would never rip conventionally, unless it is narrow and ‘floppy’ (like 50-100mm). Sure I can straight line rip the stock to get one side straight. But feeding such long stock manually
cannot be done with ‘perfection’. There are inevitable pauses associated with manual feeding, and it is arguably impossible to keep such stock against a relatively short rip fence. The inevitability of a less-than-perfect rip cut becomes more ‘locked-in’ with
longer material.
?
Large glue-up sections are always done on the left side of the blade. When sizing a rectangular table or desk, work on the slider. Always.
?
Sorry for any repetition in my many posts today. I’m procrastinating. Time to get back to work. Thanks everyone.
?
?
Lucky-
That was excellent. Thank you for taking the time to write such a detailed explanation, I understand significantly more now.? I notice that you discuss the length of the work, but not the width.? I assume you work primarily with solid wood?? Is there a width
at which you would switch sides of the blade?? I’m not referring to aspect-ratio here.
David
|
Ha! John. Fantastic. That would get it close.
Thanks for sharing.
?
?
One way to get parallel rips is to set the fence parallel to the cut and use it for a bump stop. Eventually your 12” board will be reduced in width to a point where you can no longer clamp it to the sliding
table, though.
For narrow rips you do not really need fancy parallel guides. Simply clamp scraps to the slider to serve as parallel guides. You’ll spend more time fiddling around getting them set correctly, but it sure works.
Lucky, instead of measuring from the edge of the slider to see where the cut is I made a simple gizmo as shown. One stick fit to the slot, and a thin scrap of ply glued to it. Put it in the slot and trim it
with your rip blade and you will know where the edge of the cut is. Precision is limited by slop in the strip in slider slot and by any variance in the slot itself, but it is really close.
The hole lets me hang it on a magnetic hook on the side of the saw, handy for use.
John Hinman
Boise ID
K700S and A941
|
Sounds good Mac. Your words sum it up well, especially ‘being skilled’ and ‘being damn careful’!
?
?
So I’d recommend when ripping to set the fence to end at the back of the riving knife. Lay the fence on its low side..
Straight line one edge
Stand next the the blade guard on slider edge and jam the stuff through ripping oversize take everything and size it thickness on the planer on edge.
If your nervous use a push stick.
If you’re skilled at it, you can use the slider to push the stuff through, but be damn careful that you don’t get anything trapped.
Mac,,
?
martin/campshure/co/llc
mac campshure
7412 elmwood ave.
middleton, wi 53562-3106
608-332-2330?cell
Designing and building for 50 years
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Oct 28, 2024, at 8:39?PM, KRPatel via groups.io <kamalsonal@...>
wrote:
?
Jonathan, thank you very much for posing the question as have been struggling with how to rip down material specifically for face frames.??
John, your suggestion on rough ripping on a bandsaw and then finishing on a JP was a light bulb moment for me.??
David, your attached article was also incredibly helpful and has given some ideas and think I understand the approach I need to take.
OK, question for the experts here as still a tad confused on left or right side of the blade and where to slide the fence, etc:? I have the K700S and would like to:
-Rip hardwood 4/4 boards that are 5' long and roughly 12" wide into 1.25" face frame material and accuracy is of course critical.??
-I do not yet have parallel fences (Lamb Tools) and want to learn how to make these cuts without the use of one.
-Same comment as above regarding a FF jig.
Much appreciated and Gratzi,
|
Kamal,
?
One way to get parallel rips is to set the fence parallel to the cut and use it for a bump stop. Eventually your 12” board will be reduced in width to a point where you can no longer clamp it to the sliding table, though.
?
For narrow rips you do not really need fancy parallel guides. Simply clamp scraps to the slider to serve as parallel guides. You’ll spend more time fiddling around getting them set correctly, but it sure works.
?
Lucky, instead of measuring from the edge of the slider to see where the cut is I made a simple gizmo as shown. One stick fit to the slot, and a thin scrap of ply glued to it. Put it in the slot and trim it with your rip blade and you will know where the edge of the cut is. Precision is limited by slop in the strip in slider slot and by any variance in the slot itself, but it is really close.
?
The hole lets me hang it on a magnetic hook on the side of the saw, handy for use.
?
--
John Hinman
Boise ID
K700S and A941
|
So I’d recommend when ripping to set the fence to end at the back of the riving knife. Lay the fence on its low side.. Straight line one edge Stand next the the blade guard on slider edge and jam the stuff through ripping oversize take everything and size it thickness on the planer on edge. If your nervous use a push stick. If you’re skilled at it, you can use the slider to push the stuff through, but be damn careful that you don’t get anything trapped. Mac,, Designing and building for 50 years
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Oct 28, 2024, at 8:39?PM, KRPatel via groups.io <kamalsonal@...> wrote:
? Jonathan, thank you very much for posing the question as have been struggling with how to rip down material specifically for face frames.??
John, your suggestion on rough ripping on a bandsaw and then finishing on a JP was a light bulb moment for me.??
David, your attached article was also incredibly helpful and has given some ideas and think I understand the approach I need to take.
?
OK, question for the experts here as still a tad confused on left or right side of the blade and where to slide the fence, etc:? I have the K700S and would like to:
?
-Rip hardwood 4/4 boards that are 5' long and roughly 12" wide into 1.25" face frame material and accuracy is of course critical.??
-I do not yet have parallel fences (Lamb Tools) and want to learn how to make these cuts without the use of one.
-Same comment as above regarding a FF jig.
?
Much appreciated and Gratzi,
?
Kamal Patel
?
?
?
?
|
Jonathan, thank you very much for posing the question as have been struggling with how to rip down material specifically for face frames.??
John, your suggestion on rough ripping on a bandsaw and then finishing on a JP was a light bulb moment for me.??
David, your attached article was also incredibly helpful and has given some ideas and think I understand the approach I need to take.
?
OK, question for the experts here as still a tad confused on left or right side of the blade and where to slide the fence, etc:? I have the K700S and would like to:
?
-Rip hardwood 4/4 boards that are 5' long and roughly 12" wide into 1.25" face frame material and accuracy is of course critical.??
-I do not yet have parallel fences (Lamb Tools) and want to learn how to make these cuts without the use of one.
-Same comment as above regarding a FF jig.
?
Much appreciated and Gratzi,
?
Kamal Patel
?
?
?
?
|
Hi John:
?
You make good points about both the use of a bandsaw and thicknessing on edge. And with regard to the slightly ‘out of square’ issue. It is very minor like you say, but enough to notice. When it matters (e.g.
for gluing up, joinery work, kumiko, etc.) I will always make two rip cuts. The first cut is slightly wide, and the second cut for that perfect rip where the material does not ride up on the slider.
?
(Yes, yes, I know this is hard on the blade and is probably a bad habit. But it works for me.)
?
There is another technique that I’m not sure has been mentioned much on FOG. I sometimes parallel rip on the slider without a parallel fence by measuring the overhang of material. Here are the steps:
?
- Take any material, clamp it down to the sliding table, and cut it with the blade intended for ripping (e.g. 3.2/2.2 x 30mm).
?
- Do not unclamp the material. Now take a steel ruler or callipers and carefully measure the overhang of material in relation to the right edge of the
sliding table. For my saw, Kappa 400, the overhang is exactly 5.5mm. This is the distance between the right side of the sliding extrusion, and the left edge of my 3.2/2.2mm blade.
?
- Armed with the offset of 5.5mm (or whatever yours is), and with the slider retracted, place the first edge of whatever you’re trying to dimension on
the slider and position it so it overhangs by roughly 5-6mm off the right edge of the sliding table.
?
- Clamp the board in place and use an accurate steel ruler or callipers to measure the offset. If it is less than 5.5mm, then the blade will not cut. If
it is 6mm, then the blade will remove 0.5mm of material. You get the idea (hopefully).
?
- Both ends of the board must be checked to ensure it overhangs by more than 5.5mm. Adjust as needed and reclamp. Make the cut.
?
- If you’re planning on a trim cut only (i.e. not taking off much), make sure to account for any bow in the material. If the bow is outwards or convex,
then the blade will engage at either measured end, and simply take more stock out of the middle (where the bow is largest). But if the bow is inwards or concave, you need to make sure the entire length of material is overhanging the slider by more than 5.5mm.
?
- I do this procedure where I don’t have a lot of width to work with and I want to trim the minimum amount to achieve a straight line rip. If there is
plenty of width, I just eye-ball it. I guess some of us (not me) have a laser and just use that.
?
- If the stock is not too long (e.g. less than 1200mm) I simply set the rip fence and parallel rip in the conventional way. I’m assuming a small sample
size here. It is far less tiring and safer to take the time to set up proper parallel fence/s for repetitive rips for larger jobs.
?
- If the stock is long, say 2-3m, but I only need to rip one, I’ll do some mental arithmetic and do a parallel rip on the basis of the overhang amount.
I can get very close using this method (at least down to 0.2mm). If the board has to be exactly parallel, I always break out Brian’s parallel fence, calibrate it using my magnetic ‘calibration device’ so that it agrees exactly with my cross-cut fence stop.
And parallel rip that way.
?
Again, I hope this helps.
?
?
Another method for ripping is skipping the circular saw, ripping to slightly over width on a band saw, and running the boards on edge through a thicknesser. That idea has been presented in this group before,
so I do not take credit for it. I struggled with that idea until I acquired a band saw that would make clean and straight cuts.
Once a board is flat and uniformly thick, I will joint one edge and rip a piece off the edge. If ripping several pieces from one board, I just keep jointing and ripping until done.
When my saw was new and I was still trying to use it like a cabinet saw, I found that the slight difference in elevation between the cast iron and the slider was enough to throw the cut edge out of square.
Not by much, but by enough to be noticeable in some cases.
John Hinman
Boise ID
K700S and A941
|
Greetings: I normally cc first selecting longest length always trying to work with smallest parts. If you can do hit and miss first that will help with matching color and grain. You can also specify hit miss from the yard. The other thing with cc first as you get rid of the ends that screw up your knives. Keep steel brush around to clean surfaces.
Mac,, Designing and building for 50 years
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Oct 28, 2024, at 7:31?PM, John Hinman via groups.io <jhinman1911@...> wrote:
? Another method for ripping is skipping the circular saw, ripping to slightly over width on a band saw, and running the boards on edge through a thicknesser. That idea has been presented in this group before, so I do not take credit for it. I struggled with that idea until I acquired a band saw that would make clean and straight cuts.
?
Once a board is flat and uniformly thick, I will joint one edge and rip a piece off the edge. If ripping several pieces from one board, I just keep jointing and ripping until done.
?
When my saw was new and I was still trying to use it like a cabinet saw, I found that the slight difference in elevation between the cast iron and the slider was enough to throw the cut edge out of square. Not by much, but by enough to be noticeable in some cases.
--
John Hinman
Boise ID
K700S and A941
|
Another method for ripping is skipping the circular saw, ripping to slightly over width on a band saw, and running the boards on edge through a thicknesser. That idea has been presented in this group before, so I do not take credit for it. I struggled with that idea until I acquired a band saw that would make clean and straight cuts.
?
Once a board is flat and uniformly thick, I will joint one edge and rip a piece off the edge. If ripping several pieces from one board, I just keep jointing and ripping until done.
?
When my saw was new and I was still trying to use it like a cabinet saw, I found that the slight difference in elevation between the cast iron and the slider was enough to throw the cut edge out of square. Not by much, but by enough to be noticeable in some cases.
--
John Hinman
Boise ID
K700S and A941
|
Bryce-
Thank you. I think that’s rounds it out nicely. We were typing at the same time, I’m afraid.
-David Gandy
(Dumas is worth it.)
|
Lucky-
That was excellent. Thank you for taking the time to write such a detailed explanation, I understand significantly more now. I notice that you discuss the length of the work, but not the width. I assume you work primarily with solid wood? Is there a width at which you would switch sides of the blade? I’m not referring to aspect-ratio here.
David
|
Ok, i'll try to add something to this topic.?
It depends......
What are you trying to rip? How many? What thickness? There are so many questions that need answering before an answer can be given.
Here are some examples.
If i need to take a bunch of 6, 8 or 10' boards from roughly 6" in width, and make them all straight and say 5 or 5 1/2" in width, then i would start by making a straight line rip with the rip shoe on one end of the slider and holding the other. I would have the rip fence set to my desired width, and simply rip the board down.?
If i am doing a lot of ripping of solid timber and i'm not just ripping a small amount off the edge, then i will always be using the short fence. Not only does this lessen the chance of the timber binding on the back of the blade if there is tension in the board, but allows for better accuracy of the cut when that tension is released.
If you are talking about sheetgoods, then you will have more accuracy sticking to the slider side. Having said that, i do all my thinner "rips" (say under 8 or 10" wide) of sheetgoods on the right of the blade. Good technique will get you a perfectly good result.
With all that said, i will pretty much always be ripping solid wood as a first step in the machining process. From there i will be square dressing the material and or running it through the shaper for use in whatever it is i'm making.
Let us know what kind of rip cuts you need advise with and i'm sure you will find lots of good advice.
Regards,
Bryce
--
https://www.brycecomerwoodworks.com/
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHdrRaAZd_pOa7wwbdNPUEw
|
Ahem, I rip on the right side of the blade all the time on my Kappa 400.
?
Yes, we consistently get a better finish (cleaner cut, more consistent, straight) when using the sliding table and a mixture of clamps and jigs. However, that mixture of clamps and jigs takes time to
get exactly right. Not a lot of time, but enough time for resentment to build.
?
So here are rules of thumb I use:
?
- If I need to rip 1-5 items that are not any longer than say 1200mm, I don’t even think about it. I go straight to the right side of the blade for a conventional
rip.
?
- If the outcome is critical, and I’m relying on as perfect-as-possible-result, I usually take the time to work on the left side of the blade, using the
slider.
?
- I say ‘usually’ because short stock, say 600mm or shorter, can be ripped on the right side of the blade with perfection. I have done so literally thousands
of times so my sample size is adequate.
?
Keys to ripping ‘perfectly’ on the right side of the blade.
?
- Rip fence toe out must be dialled in. I defer to da Best (a.k.a. David Best) for details if you need help on this.
?
- The material to be ripped must have one straight edge, and must be flat. Cup, bow and twist will have a very negative impact on ripping (on either side
of the blade), especially when the material is hand-fed through the blade.
?
- The riving knife and blade selection is important. These must be correctly calibrated and chosen.
?
- Feed-rate is important. There is definitely ‘too slow’ but most videos online show a feed-rate that is too fast to way-to-fast. Experimenting with your
saw and blade combination is key. Make four sample rip cuts at different feed rates and inspect the results. As the feed-rate is reduced, the surface quality of the rip will increase, but only to a point. Going any slower just dulls the blade.
?
- Consistency is important. Many operators do not concentrate on the feed-rate
for the entirely of the cut. The introduction to the blade, passing through the cut, and exiting the material from the back of the blade, are all of equal importance. I see operators ‘finish a cut’ and then quickly exit the back of the blade. This results
in a slight roughness to the edge. Exactly the same feed-rate – like a power feeder – is required throughout.
?
- Focus on hand positioning so that there are absolutely no transitional issues from using a hand
- or push stick. In fact, if you feel you need a push stick due to the width of the material being ripped, you must (in my opinion) move to the left side
of the blade, because the transition from fingers to a push stick nearly always results in a less-than-perfect ripping result. I can rip 1200mm length stock with no transition whatsoever, and use my thumb for the entire cut. You can work out your own maximum
length for perfection.
?
- I don’t buy the argument about how much harder it is to rip (on the right side) using a slider. It is not a jot harder; it is just different. Unless
you have unusually short arms, it is entirely possible to keep your head to the left side of the blade, while using your right arm and hand to push material on the right side of the blade. I’m willing to post a video on request but this stuff is pretty self-explanatory.
?
- For all of this, I’m assuming you have a ‘good’ blade guard fitted to your slider. No ‘good’ blade guard and all of my words are essentially worthless.
In my opinion, you should never present any part of your body, hand, arm, head, whatever, in front of the blade without a ‘good’ guard.
?
- And finally, and probably most controversially, I’m happy to rip material much narrower than recommended because of the stout nature of the Felder overhead
guard. The Kappa 400 guard is stout enough that I can push sideways with very considerable strength, and the guard will not move enough to touch a running blade. Consequently, with the rip fence in the low position, if I can get a good grip on the material,
I have no problem allowing my hand, thumb and fingers to ride against the right side of the blade guard as it passes by. If adjusted low (i.e. a few mm above the stock) the risk is exceptionally low, in my opinion. But that is just me. You find your own width
and own your own decisions. I explicitly take no responsibility here in expressing my methods of work.
?
I hope this is helpful.
J’espère que cela est utile!
(Mais, Dumas est trop difficile pour moi!)
?
Warm regards,
Lucky
?
David Luckensmeyer
?
Good idea, Mr. Best, but I think I will stay with translation apps.
Rudimentary Spanish is almost necessary here. If I could acquire another language it would perhaps be French. I’d like to be able to read Dumas, or Rostand, in the original.
(Sorry - getting off topic)
John Hinman
Boise ID
K700S and A941
|
Good idea, Mr. Best, but I think I will stay with translation apps.
?
Rudimentary Spanish is almost necessary here. If I could acquire another language it would perhaps be French. I’d like to be able to read Dumas, or Rostand, in the original.
?
(Sorry - getting off topic)
--
John Hinman
Boise ID
K700S and A941
|
Bryce Comer
DanielD
imran
David Luckensmeyer