Felder Silent Power Dado 6.3-20mm #forsale
开云体育Mike, I forgot to bring up one other aspect of indexable groovers. ?If they have “nickers” that ensure the vertical wall of the groove is cut cleanly, those nickers will leave “bat ears” in the part being cut. ?These are the “nickers” I’m talking about, and they exist on the Felder dado cutters:The “bat ear” profile left by them is as shown in the image below. ?If you’re doing heirloom furniture, the perfectionists among us can really protest the results of such a groove. ? Lots of people go to the trouble of honing down the nicker inserts so they cut just to the bottom of the groove rather than beyond it. ? This might be an important consideration if you’re working in a genre like Craftsman-type output (Green & Green &?Biedermeier come to mind). David Best DBestWorkshop@... https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/collections/ https://www.youtube.com/@David_Best
|
开云体育? Hi Steve, I went back to work after acquiring the Felder dado set so it has not been used yet. I have 2 adj. 150mm grooving cutters covering the range of 4-28mm. I would like to learn if the felder dado works similar to the grooving cutters where I can make a tenon in one pass. I have not seen Felder dado advertised as such, so for now keeping my groovers. The groovers are also much easier to handle, so not sure if I would get rid of them. HTH, Imran Malik On May 19, 2023, at 12:29 PM, Steven B <sb@...> wrote:
?Not to hijack this thread, but I pose a question for the group: I'm still familiarizing myself with shaper cutters and operation...Would this dado set be compatible with a 30mm spindle shaper for grooving? And if so are there any downsides to using such large diameter tooling, versus something more standard such as 160mm diameter? Thank you, Steve |
开云体育Steven,My 2002 KF700 hood is 240mm and the table opening is advertised to be 9” but it might be slightly bigger. Largest tooling I have used is 220mm w/o issue. Imran Malik On May 21, 2023, at 8:54 PM, Steven B <sb@...> wrote:
?Thank you, Imran. The reason I ask is because I own the Felder dado set, and I'm in the market for a shaper. It's helpful if I can limit the amount of tooling costs up front until I figure out my work flow. As Lucky pointed out there may be limitations within the table opening and hood with the larger diameter dado set. I don't use tenons in my work, but some of it uses shaker panels; I've typically cut the slots on the router table which leaves a lot to be desired in terms of workability. My gut says it's sort of insane to use a dado set on the shaper for slotting, but who knows. I'm considering the F700Z and F900Z, but both have max tooling diameter listed as 230mm, and the dado set is 228mm. I would assume the table and hood have ample clearance around a tool that is 230mm, rather than measuring actually 230mm inside, as 1mm clearance on each side does not seem safe. The Profil 45 has max tooling listed as 250mm so it doesn't seem that it would ever be an issue.? Thank you, Steve |
开云体育Hi Steve: ? I think you’re asking the right questions on your quest to educate yourself and make purchase decision that suit you. The published capacities sometimes do not equate to the real world. The following pictures will illustrate (hopefully). ? These pictures are taken of my Profil 45Z, x-motion shaper, new in 2017. ? Here is a picture of the Felder rebate cutter, 220mm diameter, with the Aigner Integral fence to full open position, and one table insert (the largest) in place: ? ? Same setup as the previous picture, but this time I’ve zoomed in on the righthand side (both sides are the same) so you can see more clearly the impediments for below-table lowering of a cutter of this size. There’s a cast ledge there, plus some sheet metal that supports the below-table dust extraction. ? ? I’ve now zoomed in much closer, so you can see (hopefully) just how much space there is to bury a big cutter below-table. Here, my ruler is sitting on top of one of the cap screws securing the sheet metal. There is parallax error here, but the capacity is approx. 35mm below table, assuming the cutter is actually big enough to fly over the top of the cap screw: ? ? This is an almost identical photo, but now my ruler is resting on the sheet metal, showing approx. 40mm of capacity below table. This is the maximum capacity for burying a large cutter below-table on a Profil 45. I can’t remember how small the cutter has to be before it misses the sheet metal. I didn’t want to remove my cutter to find out. Maybe someone else can chime in? That said, your interest is in the dado cutter, which at 228mm, is bigger than the cutter pictured. ? ? The theoretical 250mm capacity alluded to in a previous post does not translate to the real world, at least not to my machine which has the Aigner Integral Fence fitted. You can see that the max opening is about 235mm. I say “about” because the fence plates are calibrated and supported on cap screws that sit behind the fences. I could probably eek this out to 240mm, but then the fence is only supported partially on a cap screw. In my opinion, 235mm is a safe, working maximum. ? ? Lastly, here’s a picture of the fence opening itself. My picture shows a width of 260mm but there are screws on either side (one head is visible on the lefthand side, and in photos above) which reduce the usable opening to around 250mm. There you go – that’s the published capacity. Thus, in practical terms you could mount a 250mm cutter in this shaper, and then the fence plates would be the limiting factor when moving the fence back. I do not have a cutter of this size so I cannot illustrate. ? ? All said and done, it is possible to mount the dado set, at 228mm diameter, and move the fence into any position you want. And it is possible to bury the entire cutter, at full width, below table. But it is not possible to tilt said cutter. A smaller groover would be required for tilted applications. ? I hope this helps. ? Warm regards, Lucky ? From:
[email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Steven B <sb@...> Thank you, Imran. The reason I ask is because I own the Felder dado set, and I'm in the market for a shaper. It's helpful if I can limit the amount of tooling costs up front until I figure out my work flow.
As Lucky pointed out there may be limitations within the table opening and hood with the larger diameter dado set. I don't use tenons in my work, but some of it uses shaker panels; I've typically cut the slots on the router table which leaves a lot to be desired
in terms of workability. My gut says it's sort of insane to use a dado set on the shaper for slotting, but who knows. |
|
David,
Thanks for the info. Your pictures describe well the possibilities and limitations associated with large cutter heads. Maybe my earlier message was not clear; I made reference to the use of the tenoning hood, which allows for a larger tool than the ? main fence ?. The operations will, however, be different than what can be done with the main fence.? I have attached a screen capture of the item I was talking about. I hope this helps clear any confusion. Jacques |
开云体育Hi Jacques: ? No worries. I was replying to Steve’s original query about the 228mm dado and feasibility of using it in a shaper. Apologies if I mixed up my reply with your post about the tenoning hood. Indeed, that is a different scenario, although the below-table constraints remain – but you’re across those. Cheers. ? Warm regards, Lucky ? From:
[email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Jacques Gagnon <jacques.gagnon309@...> David, |
开云体育I thought I would chime in with some photos of a KF700 shaper hood with 220mm diameter tooling installed for comparison. ?I pulled these photos out of the archive and they relate to the KF700 and F700. ?The first image below is right out of the Survival Guide, and it illustrates the point that the Felder 220mm rebate head, which has a total thickness of 30mm, will NOT fully lower into the shaper cavity. ?To clear the obstructions below the cutter, it must sit proud of the cast iron top by 3mm.If someone else on here would measure the diameter of the hole in the cast iron top with all rings removed, it might clarify what size tooling will actually fit down into the cavity. ?But looking at the photo above, that being a 220mm diameter cutter, I’d say the chances of the 228mm dado cutter being able to clear the hole in the cast iron top is good, although the margins will be quite small. ?The large Felder dado cutter will have a maximum thickness of just under 24mm when fitted with shims to cut 20mm wide groove, and thus will very likely sink down into the shaper cavity without impingement unless it’s tilted. The photo below shows a pair of 220mm rebate heads mounted on a KF700 with the Aigner fence installed on the hood. ?By eye, the possible cutter projection appears to be in the neighborhood of 50mm with the fence plates move to the extreme outward position. For sure, the Felder dado cutter can be accommodated by the optional Felder tenoning hood mentioned in?Jacques previous post. ?There is more on shaper hood comparisons at this link: ?? Another alternative is the larger of the two Aigner BowmouldMaster hoods. ?Shown below is a photo I just took of that unit, which illustrates a 235mm diameter tooling limit, and has no projection limitations. ?So the Felder dado cutters will fit fine under this hood. Following up on Lucky’s post, I have fully documented the Profil 45 shaper tooling capacity at the following link: David Best DBestWorkshop@... https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/collections/ https://www.youtube.com/@David_Best
|
开云体育Thanks David B. Your documentation (accessed from your Flickr link) is far more thorough than mine! Thanks for sharing. ? Warm regards, Lucky ? From:
[email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of David P. Best <dbestworkshop@...> I thought I would chime in with some photos of a KF700 shaper hood with 220mm diameter tooling installed for comparison. ?I pulled these photos out of the archive and they relate to the KF700 and F700. ?The first image below is right out of the Survival Guide, and it illustrates the point that the Felder 220mm rebate head, which has a total thickness of 30mm, will NOT fully lower into the shaper cavity. ?To clear the obstructions below the cutter, it must sit proud of the cast iron top by 3mm. ? ? If someone else on here would measure the diameter of the hole in the cast iron top with all rings removed, it might clarify what size tooling will actually fit down into the cavity. ?But looking at the photo above, that being a 220mm diameter cutter, I’d say the chances of the 228mm dado cutter being able to clear the hole in the cast iron top is good, although the margins will be quite small. ?The large Felder dado cutter will have a maximum thickness of just under 24mm when fitted with shims to cut 20mm wide groove, and thus will very likely sink down into the shaper cavity without impingement unless it’s tilted. ? The photo below shows a pair of 220mm rebate heads mounted on a KF700 with the Aigner fence installed on the hood. ?By eye, the possible cutter projection appears to be in the neighborhood of 50mm with the fence plates move to the extreme outward position. ? ? For sure, the Felder dado cutter can be accommodated by the optional Felder tenoning hood mentioned in?Jacques previous post. ?There is more on shaper hood comparisons at this link: ?? ? Another alternative is the larger of the two Aigner BowmouldMaster hoods. ?Shown below is a photo I just took of that unit, which illustrates a 235mm diameter tooling limit, and has no projection limitations. ?So the Felder dado cutters will fit fine under this hood. ? ? ? Following up on Lucky’s post, I have fully documented the Profil 45 shaper tooling capacity at the following link: ?
David Best ? ?
? |
开云体育Hi Murray: ? Very kind of you to say that. ? I do not find the bat ears to be a negativity and therefore have not tried to “hone them down”. They are big enough to see, for sure, and in fine furniture if the joint were exposed, you would definitely see them. But by definition, I don’t see many (any?) instances where an exposed joint of that type is compatible with fine furniture. ? My main use for the dado is for grooving of drawer parts, machining lapped joints, even making tenons (even though technically that ought to be done on the shaper). For each of these three examples, the bat ears have no bearing and do not show (except maybe at the back of a drawer so there is that). ? If a furniture design called for a full, open groove or trench, exposed for the world to see, then I’d explore a different machinery method – probably a router. ? Bottom line, the bat ears are rarely a problem and if they are, there’s always an alternative. Personally, I don’t see the dado design to be a shortcoming. Those bat ears give me exceptionally sharp crosscuts (e.g. half-lap joints), and any “ears” from the nickers are hidden. If the cutter didn’t have those nickers, the crosscuts would not be nearly so clean – especially in cantankerous hardwoods like I often use. ? Consequently, the dado cutter is perfect for my needs. I hope this is useful. ? Warm regards, Lucky ? Dr David Luckensmeyer ? From:
[email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of murrayau1 <murrayp@...> I’m just wondering if there is any consensus on the significance of the “bat ears“ issue? Lucky, you do fine work, do you find this to be a problem? Has anyone honed ?the nickers, if so, how do you go about it. Thanks. Murray. |
开云体育I agree with Lucky, the bat ears are visible but I don’t design furniture with exposed dados. Also they serve to make exceptionally clean cuts.?On May 24, 2023, at 6:19 PM, David Luckensmeyer <dhluckens@...> wrote:
|
开云体育This has been discussed and debated several times over the years here on FOG. ?Have a look at the following threads in the archive:Personally, I think it all depends on the type of projects you are tackling. ?It is true that the nickers will yield better cross-grain joints, and tend to limit chip-out, particularly with the top veneers on plywood with hardwood faces, and with melemine particle board. ?The Felder dado cutters also produce a true flat bottom. ?But if you’re planning to do things like make Green & Green or Scandinavian bridle joints, like the one shown below, you either hate them or find them enhancing the overall “craftiness” of the joint. ? The nickers on the Felder unit are carbide, and thus challenging to “hone down” - I did it once for a project and don’t recommend it. ?I have a pair of Forrest Dado King 12” sets that I had bored to 30mm and the pin holes installed which when sharp deal with cross-grain chip-out as any ATB style saw blade. ?I don’t use them often, but they have served me well, especially when cutting very deep tenons on the shaper for projects like Post & Rail fences. ?See below: David Best DBestWorkshop@... https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/collections/ https://www.youtube.com/@David_Best
|
|
Having yet to actually mount the Felder dado set and make some cuts, I figured this would be a good way to do some tests and see for myself the "bat ears".
Each dado measures 7mm H x 12mm W I cut some white oak without a sacrificial board, no tear out on the cross grain. I've marked the cuts infeed/outfeed. The bat ears measure less than 0.5mm I also cut some Colorfin plywood. It is notorious for chipping out very easily. The Felder dado set cut it perfectly with no chipout on the face. The dado also measures 7mm H x 12mm W For what it's worth, the bat ears are barely perceptible. Like Mac said get out your microscope.?This next photo was taken from my eye level with the pieces on the sliding table. You can't see them at all. Hope that is helpful for anyone else wondering. Steve |
开云体育Thanks for the photos. ?As has been commented on before, some people don’t have an issue with the bat ears, others do. ?That said, my bat ears are bigger than your bat ears. ??David Best DBestWorkshop@... https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/collections/ https://www.youtube.com/@David_Best
|
David P. Best
imran
David Luckensmeyer
Joe Jensen