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Ok, time to tap the group knowledge. I've got a Felder KF700, 1.25" spindle that I acquired but haven't used the shaper yet.
I recently attended Alpine Workshop with a few great new friends. It was a great learning experience, but somehow I never got around to asking the following question, so here it goes:
I would like to use the shaper to replace my existing router table, mostly to regain that floor space. I could spend $1k to buy the high speed router spindle, but that seems pretty drastic, especially given the disadvantages of bits vs cutters.?
If you had to choose between spending $1k on a high speed spindle or putting that money towards cutters that do similar jobs, what would you choose? Most of my router bits are pretty standard round overs and beads. My shaper came with cope and stick, panel-raising, and chamfer cutters, so I have already "replaced" those.
Looking at Amana's carbide-tipped cutters, I could buy their whole line of round overs and rub collars for under $1k. Or would insert cutters be better? If so, which head and cutters do you recommend?
I got to use the asking Rangate products at Alpine Workshop, but I'm not sure that $2k for their multi purpose cutter is the most cost effective choice for a hobbyist workshop. But, I'm open to suggestions.
Thanks,
Brandon
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I have KF700sp in my double car garage, space is tight, but I will not get rid of my router table.?
The changeover on KF700sp just takes TOO MUCH time, it is a real pain. I love the shaper, but absolutely hate the changeover.
I am a hobbyist, cannot image KF as a only saw/shaper machine in a professional workshop.
James
Ok, time to tap the group knowledge. I've got a Felder KF700, 1.25" spindle that I acquired but haven't used the shaper yet.
I recently attended Alpine Workshop with a few great new friends. It was a great learning experience, but somehow I never got around to asking the following question, so here it goes:
I would like to use the shaper to replace my existing router table, mostly to regain that floor space. I could spend $1k to buy the high speed router spindle, but that seems pretty drastic, especially given the disadvantages of bits vs cutters.?
If you had to choose between spending $1k on a high speed spindle or putting that money towards cutters that do similar jobs, what would you choose? Most of my router bits are pretty standard round overs and beads. My shaper came with cope and stick, panel-raising, and chamfer cutters, so I have already "replaced" those.
Looking at Amana's carbide-tipped cutters, I could buy their whole line of round overs and rub collars for under $1k. Or would insert cutters be better? If so, which head and cutters do you recommend?
I got to use the asking Rangate products at Alpine Workshop, but I'm not sure that $2k for their multi purpose cutter is the most cost effective choice for a hobbyist workshop. But, I'm open to suggestions.
Thanks,
Brandon
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Brandon,
I would never give up my router table even though I have a Profil 45 shaper. ?For simple operations, the router table is far quicker to set up. ?However, part of its simplicity is that it’s not part of the shaper. ?A router spindle for the shaper sounds on par with a shaper cutter in terms of setup time and fussing around. I do like the convenience of having the router table set up for edge-easing, leaving the shaper set up for more complex profile operations.
That said, if you wanted a round-over cutter for the shaper, Whitehill makes an indexable stepped cutter with 2-6mm radii, but check the cavity depth of your shaper to ensure this cutter will fully lower into the spindle hole:
I have a Freud Industrial round-over indexable shaper cutter that I just love. ?According to the Freud Industrial catalog it is still available. ?You can download their catalog here: ?
The cutter I have is the TP31M - it will cut 8-17.5mm radius concave or convex profiles for edging work. ?It’s a 160mm diameter cutter with a 35mm arbor hole that I have a dedicated top-hat bushing pair to shim it down to 30mm. ?The inserts are HSS and easily sharpened, duplicated or made into other radii at a good sharpening shop.
Here are some photos:
David Best
DBestWorkshop@...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/collections/
https://www.youtube.com/@David_Best
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On May 20, 2023, at 3:45 PM, Brandon Nickel <brandon.nickel@...> wrote:
Ok, time to tap the group knowledge. I've got a Felder KF700, 1.25" spindle that I acquired but haven't used the shaper yet.
I recently attended Alpine Workshop with a few great new friends. It was a great learning experience, but somehow I never got around to asking the following question, so here it goes:
I would like to use the shaper to replace my existing router table, mostly to regain that floor space. I could spend $1k to buy the high speed router spindle, but that seems pretty drastic, especially given the disadvantages of bits vs cutters.?
If you had to choose between spending $1k on a high speed spindle or putting that money towards cutters that do similar jobs, what would you choose? Most of my router bits are pretty standard round overs and beads. My shaper came with cope and stick, panel-raising, and chamfer cutters, so I have already "replaced" those.
Looking at Amana's carbide-tipped cutters, I could buy their whole line of round overs and rub collars for under $1k. Or would insert cutters be better? If so, which head and cutters do you recommend?
I got to use the asking Rangate products at Alpine Workshop, but I'm not sure that $2k for their multi purpose cutter is the most cost effective choice for a hobbyist workshop. But, I'm open to suggestions.
Thanks,
Brandon
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Another KF user here who wouldn't be without a router table. Even if it were one of the baby Veritas ones Tom Gensmer loves so much. Most of my round over type operations are with dedicated Bosch Colt routers. They are cheap enough I have 3 or 4 with dedicated functions. I have a pair of cordless Milwaukee routers also for specific veneer trimming use that are used dozens of times every day. That said the router table is still in use way more often than the shaper.
Jason? Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South
Minneapolis, MN 55406
612.432.2765 -- Jason J. Holtz Furniture 3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
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If you had to choose between spending $1k on a high speed spindle or putting that money towards cutters that do similar jobs
My 0.02. ?Well, if you give up your router table, and you also do not have the option of using your shaper with router bits, there are certain things you will not be able to do. ?For just 1 example, let's say you make dovetails using a jig and a router table. ?Shaper tooling will not do a similar job.
This topic has come up in different forms where some say you do not want to use the shaper with router bits when the speed is slower where others say if you are 10,000 to 12,000 RPM, you are fine. ?Whereas some say they would never be without a router table, others with a shaper got rid of their router table and never looked back. ?However, I do not believe they were using the shaper as part of a combo and were without a router spindle.
I have a stand alone shaper and got rid of my router table. ?If space were truly were not an issue, I would not have done that but I preferred using space for a separate jointer planer after having a combo JP for decades. ?However, I would not have done that if I could not use my shaper with router bits and be able to move the fence back far enough to work with router bits, and no way would I have done that when my shaper was part of a saw-shaper combo even with a router spindle due to the changeover hassle as pointed out. ?
Before I got rid of my router table, I went without using it where I used my shaper exclusively to make sure I would not miss it.
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Not sure about your K700 but my CF731 router spindle rotates at a higher speed than the standard shaper spindle. The higer speeds are better for router bits
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Paul Mc Cann
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For new shaper owners I always suggest 3 cutters to start with
1) a 125mm diameter carbide rebate head for rebates, planing, bevelling and pattern copying?
2) an adjustable groover for grooves, bridle joints and tenons.
3) a 40 or 40/50mm Euroblock head with limiters for steel knives, which will handle most of your solid wood profiling
As you have a Felder, I presume you have a curve guard, I would add a few back bearing guide rings including a 125mm one
Regards, Rod
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Why 125mm for the rebate head specifically? No opinion just curious.?
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? I recommend you NOT buy a collection of shaper tooling prospectively. ?Buy as you need them. ?I could make the case that everyone needs a rebate head, but when it comes to profile cutters and groovers, the type of projects you embark on will have a lot of influence on which specific cutters to buy. ?I have some shaper cutters that I was convinced I would need and haven’t been used once in 20 years. ? David Best - via mobile phone? David Best - via mobile phone?
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On May 22, 2023, at 6:52 AM, rodsheridan <riderofgallifrey@...> wrote:
?For new shaper owners I always suggest 3 cutters to start with
1) a 125mm diameter carbide rebate head for rebates, planing, bevelling and pattern copying?
2) an adjustable groover for grooves, bridle joints and tenons.
3) a 40 or 40/50mm Euroblock head with limiters for steel knives, which will handle most of your solid wood profiling
As you have a Felder, I presume you have a curve guard, I would add a few back bearing guide rings including a 125mm one
Regards, Rod
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I agree with David on this. ??I am certainly a lower skill level than most in this group? I have accumulated some heads but have others I
was sure I would use and have never put them on my shaper.
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?I recommend you NOT buy a collection of shaper tooling prospectively. ?Buy as you need them. ?I could make the case that everyone needs a rebate head, but when it comes to profile cutters and groovers, the type of projects you embark on will
have a lot of influence on which specific cutters to buy. ?I have some shaper cutters that I was convinced I would need and haven’t been used once in 20 years. ?
David Best - via mobile phone?
David Best - via mobile phone?
On May 22, 2023, at 6:52 AM, rodsheridan <riderofgallifrey@...> wrote:
?For new shaper owners I always suggest 3 cutters to start with
1) a 125mm diameter carbide rebate head for rebates, planing, bevelling and pattern copying?
2) an adjustable groover for grooves, bridle joints and tenons.
3) a 40 or 40/50mm Euroblock head with limiters for steel knives, which will handle most of your solid wood profiling
As you have a Felder, I presume you have a curve guard, I would add a few back bearing guide rings including a 125mm one
Regards, Rod
-- Michael Marsico
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Thanks for the input so far. It sounds like the group consensus would be to continue to use my router for the things it's good at. I built a very simple MDF table with a lift and homemade fence about 15 years ago. I was planning a serious upgrade like an Incra prior to buying the KF700. An Incra top and fence will run me almost as much as the Felder high speed spindle, not to mention still taking up about a 2'x3' footprint. I can certainly understand that removing the Aigner fence will be a PITA if I just need to use the saw briefly.?
Floor space is getting to be a premium. I just brought home a 3' x 5' granite surface plate that I need to work into the floor plan. Hmmm....
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The INCRA router table is amazing. I have a shaper. It’s great for larger work but I find a router table indispensable in the work I do.?
The INCRA can do so many things, and being able to hog out rebates and grooves on the shaper then go directly to the router table is a big plus for my individual workflow.?
Thanks for the input so far. It sounds like the group consensus would be to continue to use my router for the things it's good at. I built a very simple MDF table with a lift and homemade fence about 15 years ago. I was planning a serious upgrade like an Incra prior to buying the KF700. An Incra top and fence will run me almost as much as the Felder high speed spindle, not to mention still taking up about a 2'x3' footprint. I can certainly understand that removing the Aigner fence will be a PITA if I just need to use the saw briefly.?
Floor space is getting to be a premium. I just brought home a 3' x 5' granite surface plate that I need to work into the floor plan. Hmmm....
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I think 125 diameter is largest cutter under table to tilt with felder 700 series other wise nice size not to big or small , get run bearing to match 2 can be handy for tenons or high profiling. Designing and building for 50 years
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On May 23, 2023, at 5:54 AM, Andy <andy.raynor08@...> wrote:
? The INCRA router table is amazing. I have a shaper. It’s great for larger work but I find a router table indispensable in the work I do.?
The INCRA can do so many things, and being able to hog out rebates and grooves on the shaper then go directly to the router table is a big plus for my individual workflow.? Thanks for the input so far. It sounds like the group consensus would be to continue to use my router for the things it's good at. I built a very simple MDF table with a lift and homemade fence about 15 years ago. I was planning a serious upgrade like an Incra prior to buying the KF700. An Incra top and fence will run me almost as much as the Felder high speed spindle, not to mention still taking up about a 2'x3' footprint. I can certainly understand that removing the Aigner fence will be a PITA if I just need to use the saw briefly.?
Floor space is getting to be a premium. I just brought home a 3' x 5' granite surface plate that I need to work into the floor plan. Hmmm....
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I have a 2005 KF700 w/ 600sqft if space. I regularly switch out the spindles. It takes a ~5 minutes and then I have a sliding router table that goes 15k rpm AND tilts. No router and lift table is going to do that. The router spindle in a smaller hobbyist shop is worth it for floor space imo. Everything I can't do or don't want to change out the spindle for (rarely) I can do by hand or on a track.
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Today I needed to cut a tongue and groove to assemble a new steam box. ?I was looking forward to using my new adjustable groover (6.4mm-12mm) but the spacers did not come with it. ?I immediately went in to call Felder and order some spacers. ?Tried twice through sales (going to order that 12-20mm groover as well). ?On hold for 5 minutes, then immediately to voicemail with a message to call on a cell phone if you want to talk immediately. ?Of course, this dude has not called me back the last time I dealt with him. ?Call back and ask for Liz. ?Go to voicemail with no greeting as to who it is. ?So I call back, ask for technical service. ?Say that I need the spacers for the part number. ?Wait — I need your customer number. ?Don’t have it. ?3 minutes of them looking it up. ?In the meantime, I log into their website and give the customer number. ?I need the spacers for the adjustable groover for circular saws. ?Wait, I need to know what machine this is for. ?More malarkey. ?Finally she says I have to get a tech. ?By this time, I’ve wasted 20 minutes. ?I wait for another 5. ?She comes back and says no technician is available, I’ll put in a ticket and they will call you tomorrow.
I go back to the shop. ?I start to disassemble the saw to mount the Forrest dado stack. ?That requires removing the saw blade. ?And replacing the table insert. ?And then figuring out how much to recalibrate the cross cut fence so that I know where to cut the groove and the rebate.
Wait a minute! ?I can do this on my router table with an intra fence. ?It was done perfectly in 15 minutes.
There’s a place for a router table with a good fence. ?At least in my opinion.
YMMV
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On May 23, 2023, at 1:18 PM, Joe Kurtz <jkurtz505@...> wrote:
I have a 2005 KF700 w/ 600sqft if space. I regularly switch out the spindles. It takes a ~5 minutes and then I have a sliding router table that goes 15k rpm AND tilts. No router and lift table is going to do that. The router spindle in a smaller hobbyist shop is worth it for floor space imo. Everything I can't do or don't want to change out the spindle for (rarely) I can do by hand or on a track.
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It’s pretty interesting what router options are available in Europe. ?Here’s a link to some tilting router lifts…
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David P. Best
Jason Holtz
rodsheridan