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Hello FOG,
If your a fan of slider machines, you might find this short tour video fascinating. ?Tour portion of the video starts at 4:55 of the video. ?
Thx,
Wade
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Thanks for sharing, Wade! I'm still "drooling"?.
Tim House
Hello FOG,
If your a fan of slider machines, you might find this short tour video fascinating.? Tour portion of the video starts at 4:55 of the video. ?
Thx,
Wade
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Great video. Love the wooden sliders. Sorry as this is a bit off topic, but years ago before I could afford a real slider, I made a sliding table saw using a 10' aluminum channel and these linear bearings. I also used their bearings to build a 13 spindle boring machine. I wanted to share this website as others here into making metal things might find it useful. Their simple "dual vee" wheel and track systems are really pretty reasonable and durable. Tom Ruth
https://www.bwc.com/
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Tom do you have any pictures or videos of your mentioned set up? I’m considering making a slab flattening jig and that might offer some inspiration.?
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On Feb 27, 2023, at 11:02 AM, tomruth@... wrote:
? [Edited Message Follows]
Great video. Love the wooden sliders. Sorry as this is a bit off topic, but years ago before I could afford a real slider, I made a sliding table saw using a 10' aluminum channel and these linear bearings. I also used their bearings to build a 13 spindle boring machine. I wanted to share this website as others here into making metal things might find it useful. Their simple "dual vee" wheel and track systems are really pretty reasonable and durable. Tom Ruth https://www.bwc.com/
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I've got the Stiles rep coming out tomorrow. I'm dying to know what that saw cost. I love the feature of the outrigger pivoting for miter cuts, and cutting on both sides of the fence would be great. The hand saving tech I'm sure would pay for itself in one trip to the ER. It would be a nice upgrade from the 80's Panhans...
Jason Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
612 432-2765 -- Jason J. Holtz Furniture 3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
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Jason, I wondered the same thing. I believe a Felder saw with the same safety feature is about US$45,000.
if it was a $5,000 upgrade to my K700S I would have bought it. Adding over $30k put it out of reach.
Watching the fellow demonstrate the safety feature by sliding his hand into the blade without even looking made me squirm. For my entire life I’ve been taught to use safety devices but to never rely on them.?
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John Hinman
Boise ID
K700S and A941
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I bought my F45 a few months before the IWF show which no doubt were selling lower than I paid.? The base machine is $39k then you add in automation on rip, scoring features, digital fence (+$5k), dual air clamps, Duplex which is their EGL equivelent, Palin is the parallel guide in analog and digital, the length compensation mitre fence you are north of $50k. That was a lifetime purchase I made after consulting with experts here Kappa vs Martin vs Altendorf, I was going the Martin route but they never responded to my signed quote. Altendorf NA sales checked in with my on a regular basis even after hours, saw delivery day sales guy called, week later sales guy called, month later sales guy called. Not to up sell the question was "are you satisfied, any issues?". All of my dealings with Altendorf have been first class and they are responsive to phone and email most importantly they take pride in what they do. I tried going the Stiles route but the cost was higher than going direct to NA Altendorf sales. Tony Cannon is the gent I worked with 704-200-8328 or t.cannon@.... The other item to mention is the Altendorf quoting system shows the base machine, the options you selected and the options you DID NOT select all in one place with descriptions/cost for each. Each manufacturer has their own feature set it's difficult to understand them all from websites and brochures in this case options are listed in detail in front of you. I will be posting some videos of the F45 soon similar to MW and the Canadian dude K700s without the suit to youtube. Last word- even if the Altendorf, Kappa and Martin machines were at the same build level the service is not. Altendorf sales, service, accounting and shipping you can call any of those extensions and talk to a real live person.? Call me crazy for commending a basic business practice when spending $50k that the other companies can't do. ? Jay Bowen Cleveland
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Going through the configurator on the Altendorf web site was quite interesting. There are a lot of options! I don’t know if the result is more like a sports car or a truck.
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John Hinman
Boise ID
K700S and A941
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My local Stiles rep stopped by today. The hand saver option is only available on the F45 Elmo controller equipped saw. Top of the line, near $75k. Gulp. They do hope to bring it down the line including the much more approachable F25 series saw.? Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South
Minneapolis, MN 55406
612.432.2765 -- Jason J. Holtz Furniture 3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
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That’s the same as Felder, only on the top of the line machine at this time. It is going to take some volume sales to bring the prices down to where they can offer this sort of thing on the “less than top of the line” saws.
Brian Lamb
blamb11@...
www.lambtoolworks.com
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On Feb 28, 2023, at 4:19 PM, Jason Holtz <jholtzy@...> wrote:
My local Stiles rep stopped by today. The hand saver option is only available on the F45 Elmo controller equipped saw. Top of the line, near $75k. Gulp. They do hope to bring it down the line including the much more approachable F25 series saw.? Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South
Minneapolis, MN 55406
612.432.2765 -- Jason J. Holtz Furniture 3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
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$75k is a lot of money. I’m curious - how many of the people in this group who make a living in woodworking can justify that kind of outlay?
As far as volume goes, these features have to come on mass-market machines in order to get volume. Even the Hammer brand probably does not have enough volume to justify developing a less costly but still reliable version.
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John Hinman
Boise ID
K700S and A941
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A commercial shop with employees might very well be able to justify this type of saw given the decrease in insurance rates. One lost finger or hand could easily cost hundreds of thousands in claims.
As for volume, it’s like anything else, quote 20 pieces vs. 100 pieces vs. 1000 pieces and the whole adoption of the technology becomes infinitely more affordable. Will it ever trickle down to all saws, I doubt it, but then some folks never thought seat belts and airbags would be in all cars either. It will most likely depend upon how many lawsuits come along as to how quick the safety approach wins out.
Brian Lamb
blamb11@...
www.lambtoolworks.com
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On Feb 28, 2023, at 4:59 PM, John Hinman <jhinman1911@...> wrote:
$75k is a lot of money. I’m curious - how many of the people in this group who make a living in woodworking can justify that kind of outlay?
As far as volume goes, these features have to come on mass-market machines in order to get volume. Even the Hammer brand probably does not have enough volume to justify developing a less costly but still reliable version.
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John Hinman
Boise ID
K700S and A941
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Jason, did the Stiles rep tell you how much the hand saver adds to the cost of the machine?
I’m just curious, as I am not in the market for a $75,000 saw. I like the idea of the safety feature, but have never been impressed with the overall quality of SawStop saws.
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John Hinman
Boise ID
K700S and A941
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John Hinman,
I’ve spent nearly a third of that for my K700S, along with all my current accessories, this was a huge expense for me and my “woodworking” salary. ?But I’m enjoying the investment! ? Now of course my saw has no “anti-wiener cut off” thingamajig installed on it, so I just relay on being damn careful! ???? ?I can still do math with all ten of my fingers! ??. And in about 90 days I’ll be even safer, Mac’s clamps are coming! ???????
Thx,
Wade
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On Feb 28, 2023, at 3:59 PM, John Hinman <jhinman1911@...> wrote:
?$75k is a lot of money. I’m curious - how many of the people in this group who make a living in woodworking can justify that kind of outlay?
As far as volume goes, these features have to come on mass-market machines in order to get volume. Even the Hammer brand probably does not have enough volume to justify developing a less costly but still reliable version.
--
John Hinman
Boise ID
K700S and A941
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The accessories really add up, don’t they!
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John Hinman
Boise ID
K700S and A941
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John,
I read somewhere that the Felder technology (PCS) added about 10K $ to the cost of the machine. Assuming this is the right ? order of magnitude ? it becomes easier to see how this extra cost can be offset by savings in insurance premiums (and human trauma associated with severe accidents). In other words, the savings in insurance premiums does not automatically equal the full cost of the equipment but rather the marginal portion pertaining to the safety system. One still has to deal with the cash flow/investment size of the equation though.
Jacques
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Jacques,
$10,000 for effective safety industrial equipment is a bargain, considering the damage a table saw can do to a person. The cost impact on a business is huge, too. The change in focus on safety in the last 100 years has been tremendous. Less than 100 years ago the question on a major construction project was not whether someone would die on the job, but instead the question was how many would die. Sure glad that has changed!
My wondering about the cost of the tool was more about the other features - all of the automation, power sliders, and things like vacuum clamps and air beds. Those things have to add a lot to the cost. Under what conditions do they pay off?
My question is really one of curiosity. I have no experience in production woodworking or factories, but it is fascinating to read discussions by some of the professionals that participate here.
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John Hinman
Boise ID
K700S and A941
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I was told the Felder PCS was about a 9kUSD upgrade when I ordered my stuff a year ago, provided it was available on the model ordered. ? I am mostly focused on only sending material I want cut through these machines, however elusive this is.? And without any ejection, backlash or other inertial consequence unintended. ? These are great advances, but not affordable to me.? Of course I have seen welders turn an empty 55 gallon drum over to stand on while reaching an a-frame? overhead and watched them launched 20 feet in the air when the sparks went under the bottom of and ignited the now gas filled bomb they stood on and guys with loose shirt sleeves get pulled into 90 rpm 800mm 100,000 hp shaft to no good end with safeguards all around. ? I do not know what this means to me.? I just finished building a new bicycle which I am sure in the hilly woods here in WV will kill me for certain because drivers only move into their own lane AFTER they crest the blind hill because they only look for other pickup trucks (which are high).? And motorcycle riding here is a mix of euphoria and terror for the same reasons.? Great roads, horrid drivers.? Somewhat like flying aerobatics, but cheaper. ? I have neighbors, mostly female, who seem to believe that battery powered chain saws are safer than their gas powered forbears, and therefore do not require any safety measures, because they are so cute…? I give gloves, goggles, etc. away and show how these chains can react in impromptu classes.? But I am not getting ahead of this curve. ? I think I will go back to growing trees into the shape I want furniture and then euthanize them, saving my risk taking to being in motion. But maybe not. ? Erik ?
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From: John HinmanSent: Tuesday, February 28, 2023 21:59 To: [email protected]Subject: Re: [FOG] Altendorf, The inventor of the slider ? Jacques,
$10,000 for effective safety industrial equipment is a bargain, considering the damage a table saw can do to a person. The cost impact on a business is huge, too. The change in focus on safety in the last 100 years has been tremendous. Less than 100 years ago the question on a major construction project was not whether someone would die on the job, but instead the question was how many would die. Sure glad that has changed!
My wondering about the cost of the tool was more about the other features - all of the automation, power sliders, and things like vacuum clamps and air beds. Those things have to add a lot to the cost. Under what conditions do they pay off?
My question is really one of curiosity. I have no experience in production woodworking or factories, but it is fascinating to read discussions by some of the professionals that participate here.
--
John Hinman
Boise ID
K700S and A941
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I couldn't get a specific answer to that question, but an Elmo without it was $50-60k. It is a big ticket accessory at the?moment. I wonder if the? European market will require it on all new saws at some point? It seems like a great system, but my sliders with pneumatic clamps, riving knives and overarm guards are very safe machines. My hand is rarely anywhere near the blade unless I am changing it. I cannot justify one of these as a one man show.?
I have a Sawstop also, and find it to be better build quality than any of the cabinet saws it competes with.? Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South
Minneapolis, MN 55406
612.432.2765 -- Jason J. Holtz Furniture 3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
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Great video, thanks Wade for mentioning it.
The feature I liked most about the new Altendorf saws was the fence in the middle of the swing arm/table.? Lifting the Felder fence and repositioning it is something I like to avoid, but this idea seems pretty cool.? The drop down safety feature is great and although it should help lowering insurance premiums, just being able to get back to work in 10 seconds without any blood seems like a huge benefit.?
Cheers
David
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Dan Gavrilyuk
Jason Holtz
