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Sawstop slider?
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Hi all, Like an?amoeba reproducing through cell division, I am in the process of diverging my one shop into two, one for professional work (door, window, and cabinet construction), and one at home for hobby (musical instruments and furniture). The home shop won't have enough room to comfortably fit a full slider, so the KF700 goes to the production shop. But I love crosscutting on the table saw. Also, my kids (9yo and 11yo) are my little apprentices and love to work with me in the shop. So I'm leaning toward buying a Sawstop and the sliding table attachment. I know it's not the same as a Euro slider by any means, but I won't be doing sheet goods, at least not large pieces. It's mostly the crosscutting of small pieces of solid wood that I want to do. Do any of you have experience with this? I know you can bolt it onto the extension wing for larger capacity, but I'm so used to the slider being almost right up against the blade, removing the friction from sliding your parts across the cast iron, so I'd lean toward removing the extension wing and mounting the slider closer to the blade. Any thoughts out there, or am I on the wrong track here? Thanks, Shawn |
开云体育ShawnLast year I replace my sawstop with slider with my current K700S. I can elaborate much more in this topic later this evening.? Steve? On Feb 10, 2022, at 12:57 PM, Shawn Kammerer via groups.io <shawnkammerer@...> wrote:
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You’ve peaked my curiosity there Steve. I had a Sawstop years ago before my first KF700, and obviously it’s a totally different animal, but I’ve never used their slider attachment. I’d love to hear your thoughts this evening.?
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On Thursday, February 10, 2022, 11:00 AM, Steve Lyde via groups.io <stlyde@...> wrote:
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开云体育What about a short stroke Felder or hammer slider? If you keep with a 700 series you have complete interchangeability of accessories.
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开云体育
When I looked at the sliding attachment on the SS I was disappointed.? It was an afterthought and not in the same league as a true slider.? The crosscut fence in particular had no great way to zero.? I'm a fan of crosscutting on a table saw and have five short
stroke sliders, none will crosscut more than 39".? I'd look at the shortest offerings of Hammer, Minimax, SCM SI 12,? etc.? Even an old Hammond Trim Saw is a sweet machine if you don't need to rip on it.? If you want a Wadkin PK, I have one I don't use.? Dave
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Shawn Kammerer via groups.io <shawnkammerer@...>
Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2022 2:03 PM To: [email protected] <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [FOG] Sawstop slider? ?
You’ve peaked my curiosity there Steve. I had a Sawstop years ago before my first KF700, and obviously it’s a totally different animal, but I’ve never used their slider attachment. I’d love to hear your thoughts this evening.?
On Thursday, February 10, 2022, 11:00 AM, Steve Lyde via groups.io <stlyde@...> wrote:
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开云体育I went from a 52” regular SawStop to a CF531. Pretty much same footprint and the J/P fits in the same space.? The slider on the SS is too small and too far from the blade to be much use.? On Feb 10, 2022, at 1:16 PM, David Kumm <davekumm@...> wrote:
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开云体育Why aren’t you considering a K700 with a shorter slider? ?David Best Best Services 415-652-1366
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I’m a hobbyist. Last year I debated whether to get a SawStop or a Hammer slider. It was a tough decision but I went with the SawStop ICS, mostly because of price and because I was comfortable with using a cabinet saw. I’m happy with the saw but from time to time I look at the slider attachment for it. Every time I do, I realize that if I bought it, I’d have an inferior slider at close to what I would’ve paid for the Hammer. If I had it to do again, I’d go with the Hammer.?
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I'm also a hobbyist.? Although I have become a very serious one over the last 8 years, prior to 2014, I had never switched on a table saw and when I took my first class, thought a jointer was something that magically made joints.? I'm a retired ER doctor--and bought into SawStop's safety technology with a vengeance.? The "premium" price was less than the cost of walking into an ER and giving one's name after an injury before receiving any treatment. Three years ago, I started doing period reproduction classes locally with Chuck Bender whose shop is mostly Felder equipment.? There I experienced his slider.? If I had it to do over again, I'd have purchased the K3Winner.? I'm happy with the SS, and have found ways to do most everything I can do with the slider, but it is definitely less convenient.? Anecdotally, I am told that most "serious table saw" injuries are not from blade contact but rather from kickback.? Having researched the medical side of things, 88% of table saw injuries are associated with blade contact and the anecdotes are not true.? IMO, especially if one is dealing with 9 and 11 year old "apprentices", I wouldn't consider anything other than a SawStop.? Jeff On Thu, Feb 10, 2022 at 3:27 PM Victor Jarrett via <vwjarrett=[email protected]> wrote: I’m a hobbyist. Last year I debated whether to get a SawStop or a Hammer slider. It was a tough decision but I went with the SawStop ICS, mostly because of price and because I was comfortable with using a cabinet saw. I’m happy with the saw but from time to time I look at the slider attachment for it. Every time I do, I realize that if I bought it, I’d have an inferior slider at close to what I would’ve paid for the Hammer. If I had it to do again, I’d go with the Hammer.? |
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I used to have a Jessem?MAST-R-SLIDE Sliding Table Saw Attachment on my general table saw. It was awesome.? Unfortunately?they don't?make it anymore, but you may be able to find one used.? I sold that saw when I upgraded to the Hammer.
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开云体育ShawnI had my sawstop with slider for several years. As most owners will attest the sawstop saw is a great saw with its given safety features. But the slider is just an over grown miter gauge, and not a very good one at that. ?As someone else alluded to the slider has no really good way to zero it out for a 90 degree cut. The latest versions of that slider has a zero setting but it’s very sloppy so it might as well not exist.? After getting used to a real slider I would suggest, as have some others, buying a smaller slide Felder/Hammer.? Steve? On Feb 10, 2022, at 3:10 PM, lyounger@... wrote:
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Cliff Rohrabacher, Esq.
开云体育I have nothing to say about saw stop. But? sliders,? no matter the size, have some really nice safety
options.? The ability to make jugs and fixtures that? can be
affixed to the slider into which difficult to hold or finicky
pieces? has been? one of my most liked features. I'm a big fan of
fixturing.? Clamp the work in the fixture and take the cut. Your
hands are never anywhere near the cut.? With little kids this may
be a consideration. On 2/10/22 1:56 PM, Shawn Kammerer via
groups.io wrote:
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Bob Card
I have a SawStop and a Hammer C3 (and also a SCM si400 slider).? There is no comparison in a "bolt on" slider to a true format slider. For your smaller shop, maybe a Hammer slider?? It would cost roughly the same as a SawsStop but even with the short slider, it would give you MUCH more flexibility for cross cuts, and would save you from having to keep a cross cut sled stored somewhere.? Now, with that said, if you do plan on using the SawStop with their sliding attachment, I must say it does look like their attachment is pretty well built.? I've also seen some comments on other groups that Harvey makes a slider (and is possibly the maker of the SawStop slider), and that might also be worth looking at.?
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Roger S
开云体育If you go down the Hammer C3 rip fence route then I can guarantee that you will lose the will to live. ?It shouldn’t take several minutes to adjust and lock the fence in the right position. ?
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Thanks for all the input, and Roger, thanks for pointing out the Harvey slider! It looks almost identical to the SS, but on sale right now for $300 less. However, I have a Rockler Woodworking 15 minutes away, and I just went down there and got a hand's on?experience?with the SS with slider. It was mounted in place of the cast iron wing, so as close to the blade as possible. I was not thrilled with it, after?exclusively using my 9' KF700s for years now. The adjustments seem okay, and it's a huge upgrade over standard cabinet saw, but I've already rewired my brain to the Euro slider style, and it felt more like stepping back down the evolutionary chain. Don't know how else to explain it. The flesh sensing tech is awesome, and I'm hoping Felder starts offering it in their more affordable saws, but as has been mentioned, the sliding table offers a lot of options for clamping fixtures, F&F, pneumatic claming, etc. I'm definitely leaning toward a short stroke Hammer at this point. Anyone have one they don't need anymore? I'm pretty sure the answer is no, but hey, it never hurts to ask! I'm in the SF Bay Area, but willing to drive. Thanks, Shawn
On Friday, February 11, 2022, 10:30:24 AM PST, Roger S <rsinden@...> wrote:
If you go down the Hammer C3 rip fence route then I can guarantee that you will lose the will to live. ?It shouldn’t take several minutes to adjust and lock the fence in the right position. ?
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Roger S
开云体育TBH I think we’re confusing things. ?IMO if you apply good safe working practices then there is a minimal need for a SawStop. ? But to use the rip fence….day in…day out..then you need to get one that works.
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Shawn, for 20 years I had a 3hp contractor saw with a sliding crosscut saw - pretty much the same setup as the SawStop+crosscut slider you are considering. The CC slider was a very decent, solid cast iron and steel construction which kept its settings. It was a much better machine than the standard tablesaw.?
I decided to upgrade 5 years ago. The choice was either another, but better version of the above, which would be the SawStop+CC slider, or a Hammer K3 Winner. I am a serious hobbiest building solid wood furniture, no sheet goods, and frequently enter furniture design and build competitions. At this stage I had not used a true slider, recognising that the machine fixture I had was designed for crosscutting, and not ripping. This is a relevant difference.? I was fortunate to be able to experience both machines side-by-side and understand the limitation of the SS, along with the promise of the K3. The K3 I was looking at was a short wagon 1250mm. Both machines are very solidly built and will last an amateur forever. Hell, I see many pro shops having far lesser quality machines than mine, and certainly lesser quality than SS. The K3 has 4 hp to the SS 3 hp, and a 12” blade vs the 10” of the SS. Having used a 12” for so many years, moving to a 10” was a step backward. Interestingly, ignoring the travel needed for the wagon, the K3 has a much smaller footprint than the SS. And the extra space needed for wagon travel is actually an illusion since one needs this on a standard tablesaw anyway. Lastly, the “slider” on the SS is not a wagon as you know it, but designed for crosscut use. The side lies about 6-9” away from the blade, unlike a true slider, and I think that you would find this disconcerting. In the end it was the K3 that came out quite far on top, not in quality of build (this was much of a muchness), but it features and range. I have had zero regret, and am still finding more ways to do things on this delightful machine. ? This photo was taken shortly after getting the K3 … Regards from Perth Derek |
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Hi Shawn
The San Diego Fine Woodworking Association has a woodworking shop for exclusive use by its members.? One of the table saws is a Sawstop with the slider, so I've used it (or tried to) for years.? I can say that even though the member shop enjoys the services of a professional who keeps the equipment well-calibrated and running smoothly (and he does an excellent job), the SS slider was never a commonly usable piece of gear.? I would sometimes get in right after he had spent yet another hour fiddling with it, and he'd tell me, "Well, you'll get a good cut for the first 5 or 10 cuts, but then she'll start to slip, and after that you're on your own, and all bets are off it you're not gentle with it or accidentally bump it".? If you were not the first user immediately after one of his efforts, you had zero chance of getting precision or accuracy from the slider. I was also lucky enough to attend Palomar College's School of Cabinet and Furniture Making, and they have a pile of Saw Stops.? Only one is set up to accept the slider, and in my 2 years there, they only fully set up the slider once, and that was just to demonstrate to someone that the slider could not be used to produce quality results.? The school also employs a team of professionals to maintain its millions of dollars in woodworking equipment. That slider did have a rough life -- hundreds of students, many of whom were experiencing their first table saw, used it, so perhaps it's excusable, but it's another data point for you to consider. I should add that in both these cases, the Sawstop saws themselves were universally regarded as excellent saws, entirely reliable and capable of working hard, working often and producing excellent results.? Before I bought my Hammer, a SS was the only other choice.? Was was never an option for me was buying the slider. |
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Derek and Speedrrracer, thanks for sharing your experiences comparing SS style sliders with Hammer sliders, I appreciate the time you guys put into it. I think Sawstop makes the best cabinet saw on the market, but in the end, it’s still a cabinet saw. And cabinet saws place the operator in line with the blade and require the operator to push the wood along?the rip fence past the blade. SS blade brake protects you from serious injury if you touch the blade, and the riving knife reduces the chance of having wood shot back at you.
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Preaching to the quire here I know, but sliders have a completely different approach to safety, or they can anyway. I’m still too frequently using the rip fence as a traditional rip fence instead of a bump stop, but there’s no good reason for it, unless the piece is longer than the slider. Slide the table back, secure your workpiece (pneumatic clamps, F&F, hold downs, whatever), walk the slider past the blade with your hands nowhere near the danger zone, unclamp, repeat. You’re not in the line of fire, and the rip fence shouldn’t be trapping any cutoffs between the fence and blade anyway. So really, the safest saw would be one with a sliding table long enough for your longest typical rip, along with a good parallel rip fence option (by which I mean?Brian Lamb’s) and F&F.? Emphasis on safety in this discussion is because of my kids being in the shop. But they’ll not be using a table saw without close supervision in any case. So I’m definitely thinking a Hammer slider, but maybe not the shortest stroke option.? Thanks again, all.? -Shawn ? On Saturday, February 12, 2022, 4:45 PM, Derek Cohen <derekcohen@...> wrote:
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David P. Best
Jeff
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