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I found a well done on hook an loop sandpaper.? I found the results compelling and wanted to share them with the group.??
Marty
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Well done test…. and now I have a new brand to buy… :-)
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On Dec 5, 2021, at 9:32 AM, marty shultz < azmartys@...> wrote:
I found a well done on hook an loop sandpaper.? I found the results compelling and wanted to share them with the group.??
Marty
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This is the 2nd test he's done.
My only issue with his conclusion is that out in the real world, 3M isn't widely available.
AND when the real world price of of 40 cents a disc is factored in? - Diablo's SandNet becomes very attractive almost equaling 3m's performance.? When you take into account the 2000+ locations the SandNet is available today, right now this minute - it's almost a no brainer.
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I'm calling bluff here before I spend all the time on the video I found some major flaws: 1. RETAIL PRICING USED - ugh. Commercial/industrial customers don't buy retail?pricing, not a fair comparison there either. 2. Retail products generally chosen - ugh. I have nearly never been satisfied with retail offering performance for my shop's use. 2. One specific?SKU used - Festool Rubin SUCKED from the day I bought the first box - their best all-arounder is Granat. Klingspor PS29 SUCKS also, PS33 is way better. Klingspor in particular carries a multitude of abrasive / adhesive open vs closed coat / paper weight / etc options, so it's just not a fair comparison of offerings if you ask me. I've heard amazing things about 3M cubitron in the right applications but have yet to jump on that bandwagon. 3. SANDING MACHINE ACTION - one type of action doesn't perform the same for all sandpapers, so it's not fair that way, either.
Just realize any study is imperfect and biased, regardless of attempts. I respect the production value and all, just not the "one size fits all" approach. He really just found the best paper for this application based on his sample choices.
On Sun, Dec 5, 2021 at 11:01 AM Brian Lamb < blamb11@...> wrote: Well done test…. and now I have a new brand to buy… :-)
On Dec 5, 2021, at 9:32 AM, marty shultz < azmartys@...> wrote:
I found a well done on hook an loop sandpaper.? I found the results compelling and wanted to share them with the group.??
Marty
-- Brett Wissel Saint Louis Restoration 1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd) St Louis, MO 63110 314.772.2167 brett@...
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I’m going to try it based on material removed. The pricing he listed seems way off. I’m guessing he bought low quantities or does not know where to shop?? Specifically the festool price he listed was off. Maybe he is in canada eh?
I'm calling bluff here before I spend all the time on the video I found some major flaws: 1. RETAIL PRICING USED - ugh. Commercial/industrial customers don't buy retail?pricing, not a fair comparison there either. 2. Retail products generally chosen - ugh. I have nearly never been satisfied with retail offering performance for my shop's use. 2. One specific?SKU used - Festool Rubin SUCKED from the day I bought the first box - their best all-arounder is Granat. Klingspor PS29 SUCKS also, PS33 is way better. Klingspor in particular carries a multitude of abrasive / adhesive open vs closed coat / paper weight / etc options, so it's just not a fair comparison of offerings if you ask me. I've heard amazing things about 3M cubitron in the right applications but have yet to jump on that bandwagon. 3. SANDING MACHINE ACTION - one type of action doesn't perform the same for all sandpapers, so it's not fair that way, either.
Just realize any study is imperfect and biased, regardless of attempts. I respect the production value and all, just not the "one size fits all" approach. He really just found the best paper for this application based on his sample choices.
On Sun, Dec 5, 2021 at 11:01 AM Brian Lamb < blamb11@...> wrote: Well done test…. and now I have a new brand to buy… :-)
On Dec 5, 2021, at 9:32 AM, marty shultz < azmartys@...> wrote:
I found a well done on hook an loop sandpaper.? I found the results compelling and wanted to share them with the group.??
Marty
--
Brett Wissel Saint Louis Restoration (at Shaw Blvd) St Louis, MO 63110 314.772.2167 brett@...
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Having spent some of my career designing and running experiments I can see flaws in his experimental process. I thought about running my own test.? I'd like to see additional factors like: Grain (open vs closed grain),? Hardness, With/without vacuum extraction, Force (heavy vs light), and say 5 additional professional sandpaper types. I'd like to measure how the paper does when sanding glue joints.? Does it clog up fast???
To run a 1/4 fraction factorial experiment with five factors and four randomized replicates would take 32 trials.? But that only tests two different sandpaper types and would take 16 hours of? sanding time.??I would spend more time testing than I'd spend sanding all my projects in a year.? ??
While imperfect, the robot likely applies constant force which would be a big factor in stock removal.? Maintaining constant pressure is something I would have difficulty doing in my shop.? ?
I read a lot of reviews after I posted the link and some people are having problems keeping the sandpaper on the sander.? They complain that the look and loop isn't satisfactory.? It may require a new backer pad.? I'm going to try Xtract a try and see how it works for me. I'll post my anecdotal thoughts later.?
Other people have said his prices aren't the same as they get.? The author commented that he bought 50 packs and used the price on his receipt.? Maybe he didn't shop for the best prices like us penny pinchers do :)??
Cheers,
Marty
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This sandpaper study is emblematic of a real scientific attempt to answer a question. The criticism of the study is typical and important to the scientific method. Studies are never “perfect” to all eyes. Open debate is critical. External influences also need to be examined. So, gripe away. This hones our perspective of the project. However, in the final analysis, how it works for each of us is the real test. But at least now I have an idea about what to try. ?I have to?applaud?this guy’s effort.
Mark
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On Dec 6, 2021, at 10:38 AM, marty shultz < azmartys@...> wrote:
Having spent some of my career designing and running experiments I can see flaws in his experimental process. I thought about running my own test.? I'd like to see additional factors like: Grain (open vs closed grain),? Hardness, With/without vacuum extraction, Force (heavy vs light), and say 5 additional professional sandpaper types. I'd like to measure how the paper does when sanding glue joints.? Does it clog up fast???
To run a 1/4 fraction factorial experiment with five factors and four randomized replicates would take 32 trials.? But that only tests two different sandpaper types and would take 16 hours of? sanding time.??I would spend more time testing than I'd spend sanding all my projects in a year.? ??
While imperfect, the robot likely applies constant force which would be a big factor in stock removal.? Maintaining constant pressure is something I would have difficulty doing in my shop.? ?
I read a lot of reviews after I posted the link and some people are having problems keeping the sandpaper on the sander.? They complain that the look and loop isn't satisfactory.? It may require a new backer pad.? I'm going to try Xtract a try and see how it works for me. I'll post my anecdotal thoughts later.?
Other people have said his prices aren't the same as they get.? The author commented that he bought 50 packs and used the price on his receipt.? Maybe he didn't shop for the best prices like us penny pinchers do :)??
Cheers,
Marty
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I think you are overthinking it.?
You are listing a bunch of variables without knowing if they actually have an impact or not on the end result. For example, you?cite using variable pressure. Unless one of the papers behaves completely differently when the pressure changes during sanding (which I doubt), this variable would be irrelevant since the controlled experiment?would?use the same pressure variation for all of them. The stock removal would change from the constant pressure vs variable pressure tests, but only in absolute values, not relative. Testing without dust extraction is useless since it would?not represent real life usage.?
Regarding pricing, you can easily get the data and put your own price and see how it changes the results.?
My point is, even if the experience isn't?perfect in the sense that it represents a best case?scenario, it has one of the most important criteria for experimentation: it is reproducible. So anyone (with a robot) can replicate it with its own set of parameters and create a new set of results to add to the knowledge base.
Just like Patrick Sullivan research on glue (), I think this kind of work is improving the craft by transforming guesses into facts.?
On Mon, Dec 6, 2021 at 10:38 AM marty shultz < azmartys@...> wrote: Having spent some of my career designing and running experiments I can see flaws in his experimental process. I thought about running my own test.? I'd like to see additional factors like: Grain (open vs closed grain),? Hardness, With/without vacuum extraction, Force (heavy vs light), and say 5 additional professional sandpaper types. I'd like to measure how the paper does when sanding glue joints.? Does it clog up fast???
To run a 1/4 fraction factorial experiment with five factors and four randomized replicates would take 32 trials.? But that only tests two different sandpaper types and would take 16 hours of? sanding time.??I would spend more time testing than I'd spend sanding all my projects in a year.? ??
While imperfect, the robot likely applies constant force which would be a big factor in stock removal.? Maintaining constant pressure is something I would have difficulty doing in my shop.? ?
I read a lot of reviews after I posted the link and some people are having problems keeping the sandpaper on the sander.? They complain that the look and loop isn't satisfactory.? It may require a new backer pad.? I'm going to try Xtract a try and see how it works for me. I'll post my anecdotal thoughts later.?
Other people have said his prices aren't the same as they get.? The author commented that he bought 50 packs and used the price on his receipt.? Maybe he didn't shop for the best prices like us penny pinchers do :)??
Cheers,
Marty
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?I agree Mark.? I'm a retired physician.? Did you know that 10% of "controlled studies" are reproducible in follow-up studies?
At least this sandpaper study represents an attempt to sort the various brands.? When I first started woodworking, I assumed "sandpaper is sandpaper" and bought cheap junk.? I quickly discovered that sandpaper is NOT just sandpaper, and some kinds are far more useful than others.? Mirka abranet mesh has been my go-to for the past 2 years--it works quicker, lasts longer, and leaves a better finish than other brands I've tried from HF garbage to premium stuff and makes sanding if not a pleasure, far less of a chore.? Based on this study I've ordered some Xtract cubitron in various grits to try--worst case, I'll go back to what I've been using.? Best case,? I'll have found a new, considerably cheaper, solution.? ? Without the study, I'd never even have looked elsewhere.? Jeff
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Thanks for posting this Marty
Jonathan Katz-Moses (JKM) has a decent following on YouTube and he seems to have cracked one of the nuts on how to make money from YouTube (>400K followers) He's located in or near Santa Barbara, California.
But yes, my guess is a big chunk of his followers are more likely going to be weekend / part time woodworkers, so I think comparing what retail products are available with prices is fair.
My take on the analysis was it was very thorough and a good place to start.? My feeling is the 3M product will give me better value as the discs will stay sharper longer.?
When I saw the video (early September), I half attempted to check what was available and at that time the 3M product was scarce (and mostly sold out on the TayTools site he recommended).? Having only recently stocked up on a box of every grade of Granat, I figured 3M would have time to improve their supplies and distribution, before I need to buy any.??
Cheers,
David
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The video's Patrick Sullivan did on glue joints were great!
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My local distributor just got this new 3M Xtract in stock. I ordered 3 boxes this morning and will get to try it out tomorrow. It was $58.50 for these boxes or $0.39 each disc I believe. That is considerably less than the Mirka Abranet I've been using and am very happy with. I tried the Mirka Novastar prior. It was okay paper, and less expensive than Abranet-but I cut myself all the time with the spinning discs edge on the sander. Never had that happen with any other paper.
I only ordered the 3M in 220 because that's what I was in need of and their stock was still low, but I'll report back after I try it out for a while.
Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
612 432-2765 -- Jason J. Holtz Furniture 3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
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FWIW, I would have also rated based on 'how fast stock is removed' rather than 'how much stock is removed per $ of paper'. ? 3M still would have won but others like Festool Granat would have rated higher. He does talk about this and show the data so I could make my own comparison. ?
I just refilled my sandpaper stock last week and buy boxes of 50 disks. They last for several years so I won't be trying 3M just yet, but hopefully I'll remember for the next order.
Even as a non-commercial user I value my time over a small incremental cost, yet I can't believe I spent 30 minutes watching a sandpaper video.
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So anyone tried Xtract yet? Hope it is as good as advertised as I ordered some last night.
What is the deal with + on grits, like 80+, 220+?
Does this mean one has to use their series to get rid of scratch marks? Like 80+ followed by 160+?
Imran
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I have a few boxes of it that I’ve been going through for a couple months. It does remain sharper for longer than the abranet and autonet that I’m used to if you’re sanding wide flat surfaces. However it begins to degrade easily if you’re sanding edges or anything that isn’t a wide flat surface. As soon as the edges in the wavy pattern catch on something, it causes the abrasive media to come loose.? To give you an example of what I’m talking about, sounding something like a cabinet door with a 2-2.5” wide door frame, inevitably the paper will catch on the inside corner of the door as you pass over it.? On the plus side, it is cheaper than the mirka abranet, pricing is on par with autonet. I’m still thinking of stocking it for flat surface sanding but most of their tasks will be reserved for abra/autonet. I like to use up spent discs with a round paper sanding block for hand sanding edges and other applications.?
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On Jun 18, 2022, at 6:48 AM, imranindiana <imranindiana@...> wrote:
?So anyone tried Xtract yet? Hope it is as good as advertised as I ordered some last night.
What is the deal with + on grits, like 80+, 220+?
Does this mean one has to use their series to get rid of scratch marks? Like 80+ followed by 160+?
Imran
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I have and I like it very much.? I still have paper from Klingspor and Abranet which I've used with Xtract.? I haven't had any swirl marks.? I haven't noticed THAT much difference between it and other mesh-type abrasives, and have used them together.? I do find it seems to last longer making changing sheets less frequent.? Jeff
So anyone tried Xtract yet? Hope it is as good as advertised as I ordered some last night.
What is the deal with + on grits, like 80+, 220+?
Does this mean one has to use their series to get rid of scratch marks? Like 80+ followed by 160+?
Imran
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My experience is the same as Dan's. Good for flats, not great on edges. About worthless for hand sanding. It tears quite easily when you catch an edge or corner.?
It's thinner than Abranet, and doesn't slice my skin like a Chinese throwing star when I accidentally hit the edge of the spinning disc.?
Jason? Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South
Minneapolis, MN 55406
612.432.2765 -- Jason J. Holtz Furniture 3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
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Thank you all for the feedback. Sounds like worth trying. I also reuse discs for hand sanding. Good to know about issues with edge sanding.
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On Jun 18, 2022, at 12:38 PM, Jason Holtz <jholtzy@...> wrote: ? My experience is the same as Dan's. Good for flats, not great on edges. About worthless for hand sanding. It tears quite easily when you catch an edge or corner.?
It's thinner than Abranet, and doesn't slice my skin like a Chinese throwing star when I accidentally hit the edge of the spinning disc.?
Jason? Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South
Minneapolis, MN 55406
612.432.2765 -- Jason J. Holtz Furniture 3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
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My opinion is that the test is a valuable datapoint. While a significant effort was made to reduce confounding variables?by the use of a sanding machine (more on this in a moment) to control for pressure and time, a limitation of the test results was that they can really only be applicable for?one type of wood. The effect on different hardness ?of wood types, as well as grain orientation, might deliver different results.
Further, the test results focus on only one element of sanding, which is amount of waste. This is similar to video of woodworkers taking gorgeous, gossamer shavings with a handplane, which are then held up for “proof” of the performance of the plane or blade. The real test is the quality of the surface on the wood which is left behind in association with the stated grit along with the time to do this and the distance the paper can go.?This kind of result requires a prodigious amount of experimentation and experimentation time. Consequently, what we have here is a partial data point for the wood involved.
The other interesting factor for me was the way the machine moved. The pattern is familiar to me as I use this, having learned to do so from car detailers using polishing machines on the bodies of cars to buff paint. The “criss cross” pattern ensures even coverage. I do wonder how many woodworkers who sand regularly do this as well.
I should point out that, while I have been sanding wood for 40 years, my go-to is a handplane (better surface and more efficient). I do have sanders from both Festool and Mirka, and my preferred paper is Mirka Abranet. What I like about Abranet is that the mesh permits maximum dust extraction, and that this reduces dust scratches, and so improves both efficiency and surface quality.?
Regards from Perth
Derek
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Thank you for your comments.? I agree with you.? I just wanted to point out that Xtract is a mesh like Abranet (which has been my preferred for years).? I'm not sure Xtract works better, but it works just as well--neither leaves any significant dust anywhere other than in my? dust extractor which is of benefit to both the surface being sanded and my lungs.? Jeff
My opinion is that the test is a valuable datapoint. While a significant effort was made to reduce confounding variables?by the use of a sanding machine (more on this in a moment) to control for pressure and time, a limitation of the test results was that they can really only be applicable for?one type of wood. The effect on different hardness ?of wood types, as well as grain orientation, might deliver different results.
Further, the test results focus on only one element of sanding, which is amount of waste. This is similar to video of woodworkers taking gorgeous, gossamer shavings with a handplane, which are then held up for “proof” of the performance of the plane or blade. The real test is the quality of the surface on the wood which is left behind in association with the stated grit along with the time to do this and the distance the paper can go.?This kind of result requires a prodigious amount of experimentation and experimentation time. Consequently, what we have here is a partial data point for the wood involved.
The other interesting factor for me was the way the machine moved. The pattern is familiar to me as I use this, having learned to do so from car detailers using polishing machines on the bodies of cars to buff paint. The “criss cross” pattern ensures even coverage. I do wonder how many woodworkers who sand regularly do this as well.
I should point out that, while I have been sanding wood for 40 years, my go-to is a handplane (better surface and more efficient). I do have sanders from both Festool and Mirka, and my preferred paper is Mirka Abranet. What I like about Abranet is that the mesh permits maximum dust extraction, and that this reduces dust scratches, and so improves both efficiency and surface quality.?
Regards from Perth
Derek
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marty shultz
Jeff
Jason Holtz
imran
Dan Gavrilyuk