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I am close to buying a Hammer Planer / Jointer combo.? I am just a hobbyist who is frustrated with the capacity and performance of my old Delta 6" jointer.? I understand that the the 12" A3-31 is more likely to stay true and is easier to adjust when needed.? What are your opinions on that?? I like the idea of 16" capacity going to the A3-41 but don't want headaches with adjustment.? I also am not experienced enough yet to know if I need 16" capacity.? It seems most of my glue up would be 12" or less so I can alternate the grain to keep flat.? I would really love some opinions before I buy.?
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Sometimes after glue up, the piece you want to flatten will be wider than 12”
Bill Bélanger?
I am close to buying a Hammer Planer / Jointer combo.? I am just a hobbyist who is frustrated with the capacity and performance of my old Delta 6" jointer.? I understand that the the 12" A3-31 is more likely to stay true and is easier to adjust when needed.? What are your opinions on that?? I like the idea of 16" capacity going to the A3-41 but don't want headaches with adjustment.? I also am not experienced enough yet to know if I need 16" capacity.? It seems most of my glue up would be 12" or less so I can alternate the grain to keep flat.? I would really love some opinions before I buy.?
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I too am a hobbyist woodworker who went through the same decision process. I was going with the A3-31 until a friend asked me why I was downsizing the width of my planer as my Dewalt DW735 did 13”. He had a great point and I went with the A3-41 and have not regretted have the extra width.?
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I’d “+1” the 16” path. I have a Hammer A3-41 and have been very happy with it. I was initially a little skeptical of whether I’d need the 16” for jointing, but found myself needing every inch of that for a recent stair project where I was glueing up stair treads, then needed to joint and plane them. The blanks ended up being ~15”, it was really nice having the 16” to work with.?
In my mind, most shop-based thickness planers start at 15” and go up from there. So, my thought was that a 16” thickness planer was right in line with most machines, with the benefit of having a extra-large jointer.?
I think that it’s telling how many machines Felder offers in the 410mm/16” size (A3-41, AD741, AD941)compared to the larger/smaller offerings. I don’t have sales numbers on how many machines of a given size Felder sells, but I think it’s worth noting how much attention they give it....
--
Tom Gensmer
Heritage Home Renewals, LLC
Minneapolis, MN
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?I, too, am a hobbyist.? I just received my A3-31.? I have never needed to JOINT a board wider than 12 inches, and when I've needed a wider planer, 16" wouldn't have been enough.? I belong to a community shop with a 20" planer and 21" drum sander for those occasions, and am currently looking for a cabinet shop willing to run, or let me run, for a fee wider stock on those very rare occasions when it's required.? ? Failing that, I'll use a router and sled.? That was my thinking on the purchase--I'll let you know in six months whether I'm rethinking that.
I too am a hobbyist woodworker who went through the same decision process. I was going with the A3-31 until a friend asked me why I was downsizing the width of my planer as my Dewalt DW735 did 13”. He had a great point and I went with the A3-41 and have not regretted have the extra width.?
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Aside from the width discussion you may want to compare the bed lengths. Some US 6" jointers had longer tables than the wide euro ones so if you do long boards that may help in your decision. I went from a 6" to a 16" and quickly found I could flatten old cutting boards and an end table workbench by throwing the entire thing upside down on the jointer. Was it needed, no, but it was a fun day and I didn't need to re-oil a hand plane.?
--
Mike B
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How serious of a hobbyist are you? Wanting to invest in a Hammer machine makes me think you are either a very serious hobbyist, small scale professional,? or someone with plenty of money looking for something to spend it on.
If you are serious, yes definitely Hammer, great machine. I would also suggest?that you buy a model with a helical cutterhead. Less fiddly and less time consuming, changing blades when compared with straight, one piece knives.? Longer blade life with solid
carbide.
The newer cutterhead allows you to plane knotty, or seriously figured timber, or long boards that change grain direction several times, without any tear out. This means significantly less time, effort needed for finishing. I mean light years difference. I cannot
emphasise this enough.
If you have the funds I would invest in the 16" model. I have the 12" model. Yes it is rare that I need to plane or thickness a board wider than 12". I do sell my work occasionally,(not enough to be a full time maker), and there are times when I really need
that extra capacity. Having to do a work around, manually increases the labour time unnecessarily, and increases the cost of the job, cuts into your margins.
Hamish
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Hamish - I agree will everything except helical head.?
Too many people say that like it’s a no brainer. ?It’s not. Depending on what your main material is , it might leave a worse finish.?
As fir quickness of setting / changing blades , a Tersa head or similar is 10 to 50 times faster for changeover and doesn’t require a torque wrench.?
Dave
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On Jan 12, 2021, at 4:53 PM, Hamish Casimir <hamishcasimir@...> wrote:
?
How serious of a hobbyist are you? Wanting to invest in a Hammer machine makes me think you are either a very serious hobbyist, small scale professional,? or someone with plenty of money looking for something to spend it on.
If you are serious, yes definitely Hammer, great machine. I would also suggest?that you buy a model with a helical cutterhead. Less fiddly and less time consuming, changing blades when compared with straight, one piece knives.? Longer blade life with solid
carbide.
The newer cutterhead allows you to plane knotty, or seriously figured timber, or long boards that change grain direction several times, without any tear out. This means significantly less time, effort needed for finishing. I mean light years difference. I cannot
emphasise this enough.
If you have the funds I would invest in the 16" model. I have the 12" model. Yes it is rare that I need to plane or thickness a board wider than 12". I do sell my work occasionally,(not enough to be a full time maker), and there are times when I really need
that extra capacity. Having to do a work around, manually increases the labour time unnecessarily, and increases the cost of the job, cuts into your margins.
Hamish
|
I love my tersa head. It is so quick (1min) that you can afford to keep a set for dirty, questionable material and another for good stuff or passes after the initial pass.
Imran
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On Jan 12, 2021, at 5:23 PM, David Sabo via groups.io <sabo_dave@...> wrote: ? Hamish - I agree will everything except helical head.?
Too many people say that like it’s a no brainer. ?It’s not. Depending on what your main material is , it might leave a worse finish.?
As fir quickness of setting / changing blades , a Tersa head or similar is 10 to 50 times faster for changeover and doesn’t require a torque wrench.?
Dave On Jan 12, 2021, at 4:53 PM, Hamish Casimir <hamishcasimir@...> wrote:
?
How serious of a hobbyist are you? Wanting to invest in a Hammer machine makes me think you are either a very serious hobbyist, small scale professional,? or someone with plenty of money looking for something to spend it on.
If you are serious, yes definitely Hammer, great machine. I would also suggest?that you buy a model with a helical cutterhead. Less fiddly and less time consuming, changing blades when compared with straight, one piece knives.? Longer blade life with solid
carbide.
The newer cutterhead allows you to plane knotty, or seriously figured timber, or long boards that change grain direction several times, without any tear out. This means significantly less time, effort needed for finishing. I mean light years difference. I cannot
emphasise this enough.
If you have the funds I would invest in the 16" model. I have the 12" model. Yes it is rare that I need to plane or thickness a board wider than 12". I do sell my work occasionally,(not enough to be a full time maker), and there are times when I really need
that extra capacity. Having to do a work around, manually increases the labour time unnecessarily, and increases the cost of the job, cuts into your margins.
Hamish
|
Dave you are correct regarding the type of material you mainly use having an effect on finish quality. Say if you had exclusive access to clear, straight grained softwood, or mahogany, you get a quality better finish from straight knives.
If you are a fine woodworker then even if you are using top quality softwood, you are still going to have to handplane or finish sand for the best surface.?
If you are doing entry level, high volume production work in softwood, and can get good quality wood, I'd go for conventional blades.
If you work with many different woods, hardwoods, highly figured woods, less than perfect grain or knots, regular blades can give you serious tear out. After planing some fiddleback purple heart, for a small tabletop, with regular knives, I needed to spend
the best part of a full week scraping, then sanding the top smooth enough to get a top quality finish.
Not something you want to do when time =money.
Horses for courses, when we're talking about specificity. For many and varied tasks I'd choose a helical cutterhead, for its versatility?
?Hamish.
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Show quoted text
Hamish - I agree will everything except helical head.?
Too many people say that like it’s a no brainer. ?It’s not. Depending on what your main material is , it might leave a worse finish.?
As fir quickness of setting / changing blades , a Tersa head or similar is 10 to 50 times faster for changeover and doesn’t require a torque wrench.?
Dave
On Jan 12, 2021, at 4:53 PM, Hamish Casimir <hamishcasimir@...> wrote:
?
How serious of a hobbyist are you? Wanting to invest in a Hammer machine makes me think you are either a very serious hobbyist, small scale professional,? or someone with plenty of money looking for something to spend it on.
If you are serious, yes definitely Hammer, great machine. I would also suggest?that you buy a model with a helical cutterhead. Less fiddly and less time consuming, changing blades when compared with straight, one piece knives.? Longer blade life with solid
carbide.
The newer cutterhead allows you to plane knotty, or seriously figured timber, or long boards that change grain direction several times, without any tear out. This means significantly less time, effort needed for finishing. I mean light years difference. I cannot
emphasise this enough.
If you have the funds I would invest in the 16" model. I have the 12" model. Yes it is rare that I need to plane or thickness a board wider than 12". I do sell my work occasionally,(not enough to be a full time maker), and there are times when I really need
that extra capacity. Having to do a work around, manually increases the labour time unnecessarily, and increases the cost of the job, cuts into your margins.
Hamish
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Great feedback from everyone.? How was the experience of getting everything co-planer with the A3-41?? I am hearing some people needed to hire the tech to come in?
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You also need to look at the design of the planer when judging what type of blades work best.? Machines that lack chipbreakers and a pressure bar, both near the knives, benefit more with helical heads.? Tersa and straight knives need those more than the shearing
cut of the helical or spiral do.? I'm not sure the Hammer planer has the same design as the 700 or better planers so a Tersa on a 900 or Format is a whole different animal than one on a Hammer.? Dave
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Dave you are correct regarding the type of material you mainly use having an effect on finish quality. Say if you had exclusive access to clear, straight grained softwood, or mahogany, you get a quality better finish from straight knives.
If you are a fine woodworker then even if you are using top quality softwood, you are still going to have to handplane or finish sand for the best surface.?
If you are doing entry level, high volume production work in softwood, and can get good quality wood, I'd go for conventional blades.
If you work with many different woods, hardwoods, highly figured woods, less than perfect grain or knots, regular blades can give you serious tear out. After planing some fiddleback purple heart, for a small tabletop, with regular knives, I needed to spend
the best part of a full week scraping, then sanding the top smooth enough to get a top quality finish.
Not something you want to do when time =money.
Horses for courses, when we're talking about specificity. For many and varied tasks I'd choose a helical cutterhead, for its versatility?
?Hamish.
Hamish - I agree will everything except helical head.?
Too many people say that like it’s a no brainer. ?It’s not. Depending on what your main material is , it might leave a worse finish.?
As fir quickness of setting / changing blades , a Tersa head or similar is 10 to 50 times faster for changeover and doesn’t require a torque wrench.?
Dave
On Jan 12, 2021, at 4:53 PM, Hamish Casimir <hamishcasimir@...> wrote:
?
How serious of a hobbyist are you? Wanting to invest in a Hammer machine makes me think you are either a very serious hobbyist, small scale professional,? or someone with plenty of money looking for something to spend it on.
If you are serious, yes definitely Hammer, great machine. I would also suggest?that you buy a model with a helical cutterhead. Less fiddly and less time consuming, changing blades when compared with straight, one piece knives.? Longer blade life with solid
carbide.
The newer cutterhead allows you to plane knotty, or seriously figured timber, or long boards that change grain direction several times, without any tear out. This means significantly less time, effort needed for finishing. I mean light years difference. I cannot
emphasise this enough.
If you have the funds I would invest in the 16" model. I have the 12" model. Yes it is rare that I need to plane or thickness a board wider than 12". I do sell my work occasionally,(not enough to be a full time maker), and there are times when I really need
that extra capacity. Having to do a work around, manually increases the labour time unnecessarily, and increases the cost of the job, cuts into your margins.
Hamish
|
Very pertinent points Hamish.
But what about David’s rejoinder about the speed issue of changing out blades? Your reference to “a lot less time consuming” in change over is simply untrue. Maybe you’re thinking about older machines which do not have indexed straight knives? Even then, I’m not sure you’d be correct. Tell us more!
Many share your opinions, but this matter (straight versus helical) is absolutely not a “no brainer”. I’m a fine furniture maker, professional, and I use many exotic timbers, including Purple Heart (although not very often; you lucky bugger!! :-). A new set of Tersa blades (which take two minutes to install) cuts Purple Heart very well indeed. You might agree, that the cutter head diameter (5” or larger; versus 4” or smaller) plays a very large part in whether there is tear-out. Thoughts?
So, to be clear, I’m comparing your comments with my experience with half a dozen thicknessers, including my current machine which is a Dual 51, 5” cutter head with Tersa knife system. I love the Tersa system.
Lucky
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Dave you are correct regarding the type of material you mainly use having an effect on finish quality. Say if you had exclusive access to clear, straight grained softwood, or mahogany, you get a quality better finish from straight knives.
If you are a fine woodworker then even if you are using top quality softwood, you are still going to have to handplane or finish sand for the best surface.?
If you are doing entry level, high volume production work in softwood, and can get good quality wood, I'd go for conventional blades.
If you work with many different woods, hardwoods, highly figured woods, less than perfect grain or knots, regular blades can give you serious tear out. After planing some fiddleback purple heart, for a small tabletop, with regular knives, I needed to spend
the best part of a full week scraping, then sanding the top smooth enough to get a top quality finish.
Not something you want to do when time =money.
Horses for courses, when we're talking about specificity. For many and varied tasks I'd choose a helical cutterhead, for its versatility?
?Hamish.
Hamish - I agree will everything except helical head.?
Too many people say that like it’s a no brainer. ?It’s not. Depending on what your main material is , it might leave a worse finish.?
As fir quickness of setting / changing blades , a Tersa head or similar is 10 to 50 times faster for changeover and doesn’t require a torque wrench.?
Dave
?
How serious of a hobbyist are you? Wanting to invest in a Hammer machine makes me think you are either a very serious hobbyist, small scale professional,? or someone with plenty of money looking for something to spend it on.
If you are serious, yes definitely Hammer, great machine. I would also suggest?that you buy a model with a helical cutterhead. Less fiddly and less time consuming, changing blades when compared with straight, one piece knives.? Longer blade life with solid
carbide.
The newer cutterhead allows you to plane knotty, or seriously figured timber, or long boards that change grain direction several times, without any tear out. This means significantly less time, effort needed for finishing. I mean light years difference. I cannot
emphasise this enough.
If you have the funds I would invest in the 16" model. I have the 12" model. Yes it is rare that I need to plane or thickness a board wider than 12". I do sell my work occasionally,(not enough to be a full time maker), and there are times when I really need
that extra capacity. Having to do a work around, manually increases the labour time unnecessarily, and increases the cost of the job, cuts into your margins.
Hamish
|
Dave:
Good points. Can the Hammer machines even be ordered with Tersa?
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Lucky
On 13 Jan 2021, at 9:05 am, David Kumm < davekumm@...> wrote:
You also need to look at the design of the planer when judging what type of blades work best.? Machines that lack chipbreakers and a pressure bar, both near the knives, benefit more with helical heads.? Tersa and straight knives need those more than the shearing cut of the helical or spiral do.? I'm not sure the Hammer planer has the same design as the 700 or better planers so a Tersa on a 900 or Format is a whole different animal than one on a Hammer.? Dave
Dave you are correct regarding the type of material you mainly use having an effect on finish quality. Say if you had exclusive access to clear, straight grained softwood, or mahogany, you get a quality better finish from straight knives.
If you are a fine woodworker then even if you are using top quality softwood, you are still going to have to handplane or finish sand for the best surface.?
If you are doing entry level, high volume production work in softwood, and can get good quality wood, I'd go for conventional blades.
If you work with many different woods, hardwoods, highly figured woods, less than perfect grain or knots, regular blades can give you serious tear out. After planing some fiddleback purple heart, for a small tabletop, with regular knives, I needed to spend the best part of a full week scraping, then sanding the top smooth enough to get a top quality finish.
Not something you want to do when time =money.
Horses for courses, when we're talking about specificity. For many and varied tasks I'd choose a helical cutterhead, for its versatility?
?Hamish.
Hamish - I agree will everything except helical head.?
Too many people say that like it’s a no brainer. ?It’s not. Depending on what your main material is , it might leave a worse finish.?
As fir quickness of setting / changing blades , a Tersa head or similar is 10 to 50 times faster for changeover and doesn’t require a torque wrench.?
Dave ? How serious of a hobbyist are you? Wanting to invest in a Hammer machine makes me think you are either a very serious hobbyist, small scale professional,? or someone with plenty of money looking for something to spend it on.
If you are serious, yes definitely Hammer, great machine. I would also suggest?that you buy a model with a helical cutterhead. Less fiddly and less time consuming, changing blades when compared with straight, one piece knives.? Longer blade life with solid carbide. The newer cutterhead allows you to plane knotty, or seriously figured timber, or long boards that change grain direction several times, without any tear out. This means significantly less time, effort needed for finishing. I mean light years difference. I cannot emphasise this enough.
If you have the funds I would invest in the 16" model. I have the 12" model. Yes it is rare that I need to plane or thickness a board wider than 12". I do sell my work occasionally,(not enough to be a full time maker), and there are times when I really need that extra capacity. Having to do a work around, manually increases the labour time unnecessarily, and increases the cost of the job, cuts into your margins.
Hamish
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Sure Hamish , but remember craftsman have gotten by and been profitable for a century without helical heads.?
It’s usually a wash cost wise to the end user in most cases. Maybe high volume figured wood operations. But that’s not most small businesses and certainly not hobbyists.?
Granted most hobbyists using Felder aren’t worried about costs , so either can make sense. It’s still not a slam dunk in my view though.?
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On Jan 12, 2021, at 5:41 PM, Hamish Casimir <hamishcasimir@...> wrote:
?
Dave you are correct regarding the type of material you mainly use having an effect on finish quality. Say if you had exclusive access to clear, straight grained softwood, or mahogany, you get a quality better finish from straight knives.
If you are a fine woodworker then even if you are using top quality softwood, you are still going to have to handplane or finish sand for the best surface.?
If you are doing entry level, high volume production work in softwood, and can get good quality wood, I'd go for conventional blades.
If you work with many different woods, hardwoods, highly figured woods, less than perfect grain or knots, regular blades can give you serious tear out. After planing some fiddleback purple heart, for a small tabletop, with regular knives, I needed to spend
the best part of a full week scraping, then sanding the top smooth enough to get a top quality finish.
Not something you want to do when time =money.
Horses for courses, when we're talking about specificity. For many and varied tasks I'd choose a helical cutterhead, for its versatility?
?Hamish.
Hamish - I agree will everything except helical head.?
Too many people say that like it’s a no brainer. ?It’s not. Depending on what your main material is , it might leave a worse finish.?
As fir quickness of setting / changing blades , a Tersa head or similar is 10 to 50 times faster for changeover and doesn’t require a torque wrench.?
Dave
On Jan 12, 2021, at 4:53 PM, Hamish Casimir <hamishcasimir@...> wrote:
?
How serious of a hobbyist are you? Wanting to invest in a Hammer machine makes me think you are either a very serious hobbyist, small scale professional,? or someone with plenty of money looking for something to spend it on.
If you are serious, yes definitely Hammer, great machine. I would also suggest?that you buy a model with a helical cutterhead. Less fiddly and less time consuming, changing blades when compared with straight, one piece knives.? Longer blade life with solid
carbide.
The newer cutterhead allows you to plane knotty, or seriously figured timber, or long boards that change grain direction several times, without any tear out. This means significantly less time, effort needed for finishing. I mean light years difference. I cannot
emphasise this enough.
If you have the funds I would invest in the 16" model. I have the 12" model. Yes it is rare that I need to plane or thickness a board wider than 12". I do sell my work occasionally,(not enough to be a full time maker), and there are times when I really need
that extra capacity. Having to do a work around, manually increases the labour time unnecessarily, and increases the cost of the job, cuts into your margins.
Hamish
|
I don't believe Hammer offers Tersa but I don't follow the Hammer market.? I'd rather buy higher end used.? Dave
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From: [email protected] on behalf of David Luckensmeyer
Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2021 6:10 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] 12" or 16" Jointer /Planer
Dave:
Good points. Can the Hammer machines even be ordered with Tersa?
Lucky
On 13 Jan 2021, at 9:05 am, David Kumm < davekumm@...> wrote:
You also need to look at the design of the planer when judging what type of blades work best.? Machines that lack chipbreakers and a pressure bar, both near the knives, benefit more with helical heads.? Tersa and straight knives need those more than the shearing
cut of the helical or spiral do.? I'm not sure the Hammer planer has the same design as the 700 or better planers so a Tersa on a 900 or Format is a whole different animal than one on a Hammer.? Dave
Dave you are correct regarding the type of material you mainly use having an effect on finish quality. Say if you had exclusive access to clear, straight grained softwood, or mahogany,
you get a quality better finish from straight knives.
If you are a fine woodworker then even if you are using top quality softwood, you are still going to have to handplane or finish sand for the best surface.?
If you are doing entry level, high volume production work in softwood, and can get good quality wood, I'd go for conventional blades.
If you work with many different woods, hardwoods, highly figured woods, less than perfect grain or knots, regular blades can give you serious tear out. After planing some fiddleback
purple heart, for a small tabletop, with regular knives, I needed to spend the best part of a full week scraping, then sanding the top smooth enough to get a top quality finish.
Not something you want to do when time =money.
Horses for courses, when we're talking about specificity. For many and varied tasks I'd choose a helical cutterhead, for its versatility?
?Hamish.
Hamish - I agree will everything except helical head.?
Too many people say that like it’s a no brainer. ?It’s not. Depending on what your main material is , it might leave a worse finish.?
As fir quickness of setting / changing blades , a Tersa head or similar is 10 to 50 times faster for changeover and doesn’t require a torque wrench.?
Dave
?
How serious of a hobbyist are you? Wanting to invest in a Hammer machine makes me think you are either a very serious hobbyist, small scale professional,? or someone with plenty
of money looking for something to spend it on.
If you are serious, yes definitely Hammer, great machine. I would also suggest?that you buy a model with a helical cutterhead. Less fiddly and less time consuming, changing blades
when compared with straight, one piece knives.? Longer blade life with solid carbide.
The newer cutterhead allows you to plane knotty, or seriously figured timber, or long boards that change grain direction several times, without any tear out. This means significantly
less time, effort needed for finishing. I mean light years difference. I cannot emphasise this enough.
If you have the funds I would invest in the 16" model. I have the 12" model. Yes it is rare that I need to plane or thickness a board wider than 12". I do sell my work occasionally,(not
enough to be a full time maker), and there are times when I really need that extra capacity. Having to do a work around, manually increases the labour time unnecessarily, and increases the cost of the job, cuts into your margins.
Hamish
|
Dave, I chuckled when you said you don’t follow the Hammer market. Said machines are a couple of tons too light for you!!?
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On 13 Jan 2021, at 9:16 am, David Kumm <davekumm@...> wrote:
?
I don't believe Hammer offers Tersa but I don't follow the Hammer market.? I'd rather buy higher end used.? Dave
Dave:
Good points. Can the Hammer machines even be ordered with Tersa?
Lucky
On 13 Jan 2021, at 9:05 am, David Kumm < davekumm@...> wrote:
You also need to look at the design of the planer when judging what type of blades work best.? Machines that lack chipbreakers and a pressure bar, both near the knives, benefit more with helical heads.? Tersa and straight knives need those more than the shearing
cut of the helical or spiral do.? I'm not sure the Hammer planer has the same design as the 700 or better planers so a Tersa on a 900 or Format is a whole different animal than one on a Hammer.? Dave
Dave you are correct regarding the type of material you mainly use having an effect on finish quality. Say if you had exclusive access to clear, straight grained softwood, or mahogany,
you get a quality better finish from straight knives.
If you are a fine woodworker then even if you are using top quality softwood, you are still going to have to handplane or finish sand for the best surface.?
If you are doing entry level, high volume production work in softwood, and can get good quality wood, I'd go for conventional blades.
If you work with many different woods, hardwoods, highly figured woods, less than perfect grain or knots, regular blades can give you serious tear out. After planing some fiddleback
purple heart, for a small tabletop, with regular knives, I needed to spend the best part of a full week scraping, then sanding the top smooth enough to get a top quality finish.
Not something you want to do when time =money.
Horses for courses, when we're talking about specificity. For many and varied tasks I'd choose a helical cutterhead, for its versatility?
?Hamish.
Hamish - I agree will everything except helical head.?
Too many people say that like it’s a no brainer. ?It’s not. Depending on what your main material is , it might leave a worse finish.?
As fir quickness of setting / changing blades , a Tersa head or similar is 10 to 50 times faster for changeover and doesn’t require a torque wrench.?
Dave
?
How serious of a hobbyist are you? Wanting to invest in a Hammer machine makes me think you are either a very serious hobbyist, small scale professional,? or someone with plenty
of money looking for something to spend it on.
If you are serious, yes definitely Hammer, great machine. I would also suggest?that you buy a model with a helical cutterhead. Less fiddly and less time consuming, changing blades
when compared with straight, one piece knives.? Longer blade life with solid carbide.
The newer cutterhead allows you to plane knotty, or seriously figured timber, or long boards that change grain direction several times, without any tear out. This means significantly
less time, effort needed for finishing. I mean light years difference. I cannot emphasise this enough.
If you have the funds I would invest in the 16" model. I have the 12" model. Yes it is rare that I need to plane or thickness a board wider than 12". I do sell my work occasionally,(not
enough to be a full time maker), and there are times when I really need that extra capacity. Having to do a work around, manually increases the labour time unnecessarily, and increases the cost of the job, cuts into your margins.
Hamish
|
Lucky, your analysis is fair.? As I've gained weight, I compensate with heavier equipment to keep the ratio correct.
I am a firm believer in the benefits of a heavy base for machinery though.? Stability starts at the bottom and translates to holding settings at the top.? As always, I run counter to the herd.? I might get trampled but I don't sniff much butt that way.? Dave
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Dave, I chuckled when you said you don’t follow the Hammer market. Said machines are a couple of tons too light for you!!?
On 13 Jan 2021, at 9:16 am, David Kumm <davekumm@...> wrote:
?
I don't believe Hammer offers Tersa but I don't follow the Hammer market.? I'd rather buy higher end used.? Dave
Dave:
Good points. Can the Hammer machines even be ordered with Tersa?
Lucky
On 13 Jan 2021, at 9:05 am, David Kumm < davekumm@...> wrote:
You also need to look at the design of the planer when judging what type of blades work best.? Machines that lack chipbreakers and a pressure bar, both near the knives, benefit more with helical heads.? Tersa and straight knives need those more than the shearing
cut of the helical or spiral do.? I'm not sure the Hammer planer has the same design as the 700 or better planers so a Tersa on a 900 or Format is a whole different animal than one on a Hammer.? Dave
Dave you are correct regarding the type of material you mainly use having an effect on finish quality. Say if you had exclusive access to clear, straight grained softwood, or mahogany,
you get a quality better finish from straight knives.
If you are a fine woodworker then even if you are using top quality softwood, you are still going to have to handplane or finish sand for the best surface.?
If you are doing entry level, high volume production work in softwood, and can get good quality wood, I'd go for conventional blades.
If you work with many different woods, hardwoods, highly figured woods, less than perfect grain or knots, regular blades can give you serious tear out. After planing some fiddleback
purple heart, for a small tabletop, with regular knives, I needed to spend the best part of a full week scraping, then sanding the top smooth enough to get a top quality finish.
Not something you want to do when time =money.
Horses for courses, when we're talking about specificity. For many and varied tasks I'd choose a helical cutterhead, for its versatility?
?Hamish.
Hamish - I agree will everything except helical head.?
Too many people say that like it’s a no brainer. ?It’s not. Depending on what your main material is , it might leave a worse finish.?
As fir quickness of setting / changing blades , a Tersa head or similar is 10 to 50 times faster for changeover and doesn’t require a torque wrench.?
Dave
?
How serious of a hobbyist are you? Wanting to invest in a Hammer machine makes me think you are either a very serious hobbyist, small scale professional,? or someone with plenty
of money looking for something to spend it on.
If you are serious, yes definitely Hammer, great machine. I would also suggest?that you buy a model with a helical cutterhead. Less fiddly and less time consuming, changing blades
when compared with straight, one piece knives.? Longer blade life with solid carbide.
The newer cutterhead allows you to plane knotty, or seriously figured timber, or long boards that change grain direction several times, without any tear out. This means significantly
less time, effort needed for finishing. I mean light years difference. I cannot emphasise this enough.
If you have the funds I would invest in the 16" model. I have the 12" model. Yes it is rare that I need to plane or thickness a board wider than 12". I do sell my work occasionally,(not
enough to be a full time maker), and there are times when I really need that extra capacity. Having to do a work around, manually increases the labour time unnecessarily, and increases the cost of the job, cuts into your margins.
Hamish
|
Lucky, In the context of having to change or rotate every single individual blade on a helical cutterhead, I would agree with you.
In practical use, as a serious hobbyist, or small fine woodworking business, the solid carbide cutters stay sharp many times longer than the standard blades. This means you don't need to change anywhere near as often. If you're a small volume, high quality
worker, it could be many years before you need to.
?It also means if you get a nick in a helical carbide blade you can rotate the offending 1-2 blades. With regular knives if you get a nick, you have to change out the whole set.
I would also agree that straight grained purpleheart planes very well with regular knives. The fiddleback stuff gives me nightmares just thinking about it. Helical cutters no prob.
Where the helical cutterhead really shines is things like laminated cutting boards. I usually do several small batches a year. Sometimes, I make the mistake of orienting a laminate, the with the grain of one running in the opposite direction to all the
others. You get a nasty surprise when try to flatten it after glue up, with the tear out on that one area, using regular blades. With a helical cutterhead, there is no problem. Straight to finish sanding, no time consuming divetts to sand out.
The machine I have is about 11 years old. I believe Tersa blades might have been an option at the time(???). I had the regular reversible blades, until I changed out the cutterhead last year for a helical. The reversible blades would be slower than Tersa,
to change, but I didn't mind so much because I was used to the old style jointers, ancient method of using wrenches, where you tighten one bolt and the knives would move out of alignment somewhere else, and it takes hours to get a decent change.
I'm down here in Australia, where most of our hardwoods make working with oak feel like a softwood, and also have an abrasive high silica content to boot. I really notice the difference, when working with fine Northern hemisphere woods like walnut, cherry,?
maple, or oak. They feel like planing butter in comparison.?
Hamish.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: [email protected] on behalf of David Luckensmeyer
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2021 10:09 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] 12" or 16" Jointer /Planer
Very pertinent points Hamish.
But what about David’s rejoinder about the speed issue of changing out blades? Your reference to “a lot less time consuming” in change over is simply untrue. Maybe you’re thinking about older machines which do not have indexed straight knives?
Even then, I’m not sure you’d be correct. Tell us more!
Many share your opinions, but this matter (straight versus helical) is absolutely not a “no brainer”. I’m a fine furniture maker, professional, and I use many exotic timbers, including Purple Heart (although not very often; you lucky bugger!!
:-). A new set of Tersa blades (which take two minutes to install) cuts Purple Heart very well indeed. You might agree, that the cutter head diameter (5” or larger; versus 4” or smaller) plays a very large part in whether there is tear-out. Thoughts?
So, to be clear, I’m comparing your comments with my experience with half a dozen thicknessers, including my current machine which is a Dual 51, 5” cutter head with Tersa knife system. I love the Tersa system.
Lucky
Dave you are correct regarding the type of material you mainly use having an effect on finish quality. Say if you had exclusive access to clear, straight grained softwood, or mahogany,
you get a quality better finish from straight knives.
If you are a fine woodworker then even if you are using top quality softwood, you are still going to have to handplane or finish sand for the best surface.?
If you are doing entry level, high volume production work in softwood, and can get good quality wood, I'd go for conventional blades.
If you work with many different woods, hardwoods, highly figured woods, less than perfect grain or knots, regular blades can give you serious tear out. After planing some fiddleback
purple heart, for a small tabletop, with regular knives, I needed to spend the best part of a full week scraping, then sanding the top smooth enough to get a top quality finish.
Not something you want to do when time =money.
Horses for courses, when we're talking about specificity. For many and varied tasks I'd choose a helical cutterhead, for its versatility?
?Hamish.
Hamish - I agree will everything except helical head.?
Too many people say that like it’s a no brainer. ?It’s not. Depending on what your main material is , it might leave a worse finish.?
As fir quickness of setting / changing blades , a Tersa head or similar is 10 to 50 times faster for changeover and doesn’t require a torque wrench.?
Dave
?
How serious of a hobbyist are you? Wanting to invest in a Hammer machine makes me think you are either a very serious hobbyist, small scale professional,? or someone with plenty
of money looking for something to spend it on.
If you are serious, yes definitely Hammer, great machine. I would also suggest?that you buy a model with a helical cutterhead. Less fiddly and less time consuming, changing blades
when compared with straight, one piece knives.? Longer blade life with solid carbide.
The newer cutterhead allows you to plane knotty, or seriously figured timber, or long boards that change grain direction several times, without any tear out. This means significantly
less time, effort needed for finishing. I mean light years difference. I cannot emphasise this enough.
If you have the funds I would invest in the 16" model. I have the 12" model. Yes it is rare that I need to plane or thickness a board wider than 12". I do sell my work occasionally,(not
enough to be a full time maker), and there are times when I really need that extra capacity. Having to do a work around, manually increases the labour time unnecessarily, and increases the cost of the job, cuts into your margins.
Hamish
|
When straight knives nick, I just shift the offending one in one direction or the other.? You do need to make sure it doesn't hit anything but on my machines there is usually 1/4" or more of length in the head than necessary for the knives.? If not, I order
knives a little short.? I can usually get quite a few nicks in the blades ( Tersa too ) before changing the whole set.? Dave
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Lucky, In the context of having to change or rotate every single individual blade on a helical cutterhead, I would agree with you.
In practical use, as a serious hobbyist, or small fine woodworking business, the solid carbide cutters stay sharp many times longer than the standard blades. This means you don't need to change anywhere near as often. If you're a small volume, high quality
worker, it could be many years before you need to.
?It also means if you get a nick in a helical carbide blade you can rotate the offending 1-2 blades. With regular knives if you get a nick, you have to change out the whole set.
I would also agree that straight grained purpleheart planes very well with regular knives. The fiddleback stuff gives me nightmares just thinking about it. Helical cutters no prob.
Where the helical cutterhead really shines is things like laminated cutting boards. I usually do several small batches a year. Sometimes, I make the mistake of orienting a laminate, the with the grain of one running in the opposite direction to all the
others. You get a nasty surprise when try to flatten it after glue up, with the tear out on that one area, using regular blades. With a helical cutterhead, there is no problem. Straight to finish sanding, no time consuming divetts to sand out.
The machine I have is about 11 years old. I believe Tersa blades might have been an option at the time(???). I had the regular reversible blades, until I changed out the cutterhead last year for a helical. The reversible blades would be slower than Tersa,
to change, but I didn't mind so much because I was used to the old style jointers, ancient method of using wrenches, where you tighten one bolt and the knives would move out of alignment somewhere else, and it takes hours to get a decent change.
I'm down here in Australia, where most of our hardwoods make working with oak feel like a softwood, and also have an abrasive high silica content to boot. I really notice the difference, when working with fine Northern hemisphere woods like walnut, cherry,?
maple, or oak. They feel like planing butter in comparison.?
Hamish.
Very pertinent points Hamish.
But what about David’s rejoinder about the speed issue of changing out blades? Your reference to “a lot less time consuming” in change over is simply untrue. Maybe you’re thinking about older machines which do not have indexed straight knives?
Even then, I’m not sure you’d be correct. Tell us more!
Many share your opinions, but this matter (straight versus helical) is absolutely not a “no brainer”. I’m a fine furniture maker, professional, and I use many exotic timbers, including Purple Heart (although not very often; you lucky bugger!!
:-). A new set of Tersa blades (which take two minutes to install) cuts Purple Heart very well indeed. You might agree, that the cutter head diameter (5” or larger; versus 4” or smaller) plays a very large part in whether there is tear-out. Thoughts?
So, to be clear, I’m comparing your comments with my experience with half a dozen thicknessers, including my current machine which is a Dual 51, 5” cutter head with Tersa knife system. I love the Tersa system.
Lucky
Dave you are correct regarding the type of material you mainly use having an effect on finish quality. Say if you had exclusive access to clear, straight grained softwood, or mahogany,
you get a quality better finish from straight knives.
If you are a fine woodworker then even if you are using top quality softwood, you are still going to have to handplane or finish sand for the best surface.?
If you are doing entry level, high volume production work in softwood, and can get good quality wood, I'd go for conventional blades.
If you work with many different woods, hardwoods, highly figured woods, less than perfect grain or knots, regular blades can give you serious tear out. After planing some fiddleback
purple heart, for a small tabletop, with regular knives, I needed to spend the best part of a full week scraping, then sanding the top smooth enough to get a top quality finish.
Not something you want to do when time =money.
Horses for courses, when we're talking about specificity. For many and varied tasks I'd choose a helical cutterhead, for its versatility?
?Hamish.
Hamish - I agree will everything except helical head.?
Too many people say that like it’s a no brainer. ?It’s not. Depending on what your main material is , it might leave a worse finish.?
As fir quickness of setting / changing blades , a Tersa head or similar is 10 to 50 times faster for changeover and doesn’t require a torque wrench.?
Dave
?
How serious of a hobbyist are you? Wanting to invest in a Hammer machine makes me think you are either a very serious hobbyist, small scale professional,? or someone with plenty
of money looking for something to spend it on.
If you are serious, yes definitely Hammer, great machine. I would also suggest?that you buy a model with a helical cutterhead. Less fiddly and less time consuming, changing blades
when compared with straight, one piece knives.? Longer blade life with solid carbide.
The newer cutterhead allows you to plane knotty, or seriously figured timber, or long boards that change grain direction several times, without any tear out. This means significantly
less time, effort needed for finishing. I mean light years difference. I cannot emphasise this enough.
If you have the funds I would invest in the 16" model. I have the 12" model. Yes it is rare that I need to plane or thickness a board wider than 12". I do sell my work occasionally,(not
enough to be a full time maker), and there are times when I really need that extra capacity. Having to do a work around, manually increases the labour time unnecessarily, and increases the cost of the job, cuts into your margins.
Hamish
|
Bill Belanger
JP Rice
Tom Gensmer
Jeff
imran
David Luckensmeyer