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Hamish,
Your ? of how serious of a hobbyist I am is interesting...sometimes hard to define yourself :).? I am 62 and until the last year or two hadn't touched woodworking since High School.? I started looking in the mirror a few years ago and said I need some hobbies.? Woodworking seemed attractive so I started researching tools.? I have been very blessed with having some resources from my life's work and my perfectionist, buy a tool once obsession drives me to analyze my purchases in great detail.? The opinions of people like you and groups like this help me a lot.? With that said my projects so far have involved woods with interesting grain patterns, plenty of knots and character.? I may be weird but I seem to get pleasure out of taking a rough sawn board and discovering as I surface all sides and lay the boards out how the look turns out.? I usually epoxy most knots that seem unstable. So with that said I feel the jointer/planer I have is the heart and soul of my hobby.? I am making things that will outlast me for friends, family and charities.? My 6" old rusty Delta jointer and and Dewalt planer just don't seem to be enough.? I would like to have less tear out on knots, be able to make something without having to glue a bunch of 6" boards together, get rid of the snip that is almost impossible to get rid of on my Delta 6" jointer.? I have the resources to buy an A3-41 but don't have the runway to make a bad take off.? I say that all with much thanks and respect for all who their ideas and opinions and thoughts yours was spot on.
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Thanks for your explanations Hamish. I think we agree more than disagree; we are just finding solutions in different ways. For example, if I had excessive tear out on a chopping board, I’d just move on to my wide belt sander. Or if I was feeling particularly atavistic, I’d pull out my Sauer and Steiner smoother and get to work.?
I’m also in Australia (Brisbane) and know exactly what you mean about non-Australian timbers machining like butter. Where are you located? Cheers, Lucky
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On 13 Jan 2021, at 9:48 am, Hamish Casimir <hamishcasimir@...> wrote:
?
Lucky, In the context of having to change or rotate every single individual blade on a helical cutterhead, I would agree with you.
In practical use, as a serious hobbyist, or small fine woodworking business, the solid carbide cutters stay sharp many times longer than the standard blades. This means you don't need to change anywhere near as often. If you're a small volume, high quality
worker, it could be many years before you need to.
?It also means if you get a nick in a helical carbide blade you can rotate the offending 1-2 blades. With regular knives if you get a nick, you have to change out the whole set.
I would also agree that straight grained purpleheart planes very well with regular knives. The fiddleback stuff gives me nightmares just thinking about it. Helical cutters no prob.
Where the helical cutterhead really shines is things like laminated cutting boards. I usually do several small batches a year. Sometimes, I make the mistake of orienting a laminate, the with the grain of one running in the opposite direction to all the
others. You get a nasty surprise when try to flatten it after glue up, with the tear out on that one area, using regular blades. With a helical cutterhead, there is no problem. Straight to finish sanding, no time consuming divetts to sand out.
The machine I have is about 11 years old. I believe Tersa blades might have been an option at the time(???). I had the regular reversible blades, until I changed out the cutterhead last year for a helical. The reversible blades would be slower than Tersa,
to change, but I didn't mind so much because I was used to the old style jointers, ancient method of using wrenches, where you tighten one bolt and the knives would move out of alignment somewhere else, and it takes hours to get a decent change.
I'm down here in Australia, where most of our hardwoods make working with oak feel like a softwood, and also have an abrasive high silica content to boot. I really notice the difference, when working with fine Northern hemisphere woods like walnut, cherry,?
maple, or oak. They feel like planing butter in comparison.?
Hamish.
Very pertinent points Hamish.
But what about David’s rejoinder about the speed issue of changing out blades? Your reference to “a lot less time consuming” in change over is simply untrue. Maybe you’re thinking about older machines which do not have indexed straight knives?
Even then, I’m not sure you’d be correct. Tell us more!
Many share your opinions, but this matter (straight versus helical) is absolutely not a “no brainer”. I’m a fine furniture maker, professional, and I use many exotic timbers, including Purple Heart (although not very often; you lucky bugger!!
:-). A new set of Tersa blades (which take two minutes to install) cuts Purple Heart very well indeed. You might agree, that the cutter head diameter (5” or larger; versus 4” or smaller) plays a very large part in whether there is tear-out. Thoughts?
So, to be clear, I’m comparing your comments with my experience with half a dozen thicknessers, including my current machine which is a Dual 51, 5” cutter head with Tersa knife system. I love the Tersa system.
Lucky
Dave you are correct regarding the type of material you mainly use having an effect on finish quality. Say if you had exclusive access to clear, straight grained softwood, or mahogany,
you get a quality better finish from straight knives.
If you are a fine woodworker then even if you are using top quality softwood, you are still going to have to handplane or finish sand for the best surface.?
If you are doing entry level, high volume production work in softwood, and can get good quality wood, I'd go for conventional blades.
If you work with many different woods, hardwoods, highly figured woods, less than perfect grain or knots, regular blades can give you serious tear out. After planing some fiddleback
purple heart, for a small tabletop, with regular knives, I needed to spend the best part of a full week scraping, then sanding the top smooth enough to get a top quality finish.
Not something you want to do when time =money.
Horses for courses, when we're talking about specificity. For many and varied tasks I'd choose a helical cutterhead, for its versatility?
?Hamish.
Hamish - I agree will everything except helical head.?
Too many people say that like it’s a no brainer. ?It’s not. Depending on what your main material is , it might leave a worse finish.?
As fir quickness of setting / changing blades , a Tersa head or similar is 10 to 50 times faster for changeover and doesn’t require a torque wrench.?
Dave
?
How serious of a hobbyist are you? Wanting to invest in a Hammer machine makes me think you are either a very serious hobbyist, small scale professional,? or someone with plenty
of money looking for something to spend it on.
If you are serious, yes definitely Hammer, great machine. I would also suggest?that you buy a model with a helical cutterhead. Less fiddly and less time consuming, changing blades
when compared with straight, one piece knives.? Longer blade life with solid carbide.
The newer cutterhead allows you to plane knotty, or seriously figured timber, or long boards that change grain direction several times, without any tear out. This means significantly
less time, effort needed for finishing. I mean light years difference. I cannot emphasise this enough.
If you have the funds I would invest in the 16" model. I have the 12" model. Yes it is rare that I need to plane or thickness a board wider than 12". I do sell my work occasionally,(not
enough to be a full time maker), and there are times when I really need that extra capacity. Having to do a work around, manually increases the labour time unnecessarily, and increases the cost of the job, cuts into your margins.
Hamish
|
Hey Lucky, If I had the space I'd get a wide belt sander too. Very small shop, 1 car garage. Somehow I make it work(well most of the time, but it is pretty crammed).
Sauer and Steiner's have to be about the most beautiful hand planes ever made. It would be hard to justify me buying one(though I'd love to). Very envious. At the moment I can justify Lie Nielsens, HNT Gordons and Veritas. Not anywhere near the same ball park
as Sauer & Steiner but I'll take what I can get.
I'm in outer Sydney, about 10 mins away from the NSW Felder dealer.
Nice to meet another fellow Aussie woodworker.
Hamish.
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Show quoted text
Thanks for your explanations Hamish. I think we agree more than disagree; we are just finding solutions in different ways. For example, if I had excessive tear out on a chopping board, I’d just move on to my wide belt sander. Or if I was feeling
particularly atavistic, I’d pull out my Sauer and Steiner smoother and get to work.?
I’m also in Australia (Brisbane) and know exactly what you mean about non-Australian timbers machining like butter. Where are you located?
Cheers, Lucky
On 13 Jan 2021, at 9:48 am, Hamish Casimir <hamishcasimir@...> wrote:
?
Lucky, In the context of having to change or rotate every single individual blade on a helical cutterhead, I would agree with you.
In practical use, as a serious hobbyist, or small fine woodworking business, the solid carbide cutters stay sharp many times longer than the standard blades. This means you don't need to change anywhere near as often. If you're a small volume, high quality
worker, it could be many years before you need to.
?It also means if you get a nick in a helical carbide blade you can rotate the offending 1-2 blades. With regular knives if you get a nick, you have to change out the whole set.
I would also agree that straight grained purpleheart planes very well with regular knives. The fiddleback stuff gives me nightmares just thinking about it. Helical cutters no prob.
Where the helical cutterhead really shines is things like laminated cutting boards. I usually do several small batches a year. Sometimes, I make the mistake of orienting a laminate, the with the grain of one running in the opposite direction to all the
others. You get a nasty surprise when try to flatten it after glue up, with the tear out on that one area, using regular blades. With a helical cutterhead, there is no problem. Straight to finish sanding, no time consuming divetts to sand out.
The machine I have is about 11 years old. I believe Tersa blades might have been an option at the time(???). I had the regular reversible blades, until I changed out the cutterhead last year for a helical. The reversible blades would be slower than Tersa,
to change, but I didn't mind so much because I was used to the old style jointers, ancient method of using wrenches, where you tighten one bolt and the knives would move out of alignment somewhere else, and it takes hours to get a decent change.
I'm down here in Australia, where most of our hardwoods make working with oak feel like a softwood, and also have an abrasive high silica content to boot. I really notice the difference, when working with fine Northern hemisphere woods like walnut, cherry,?
maple, or oak. They feel like planing butter in comparison.?
Hamish.
Very pertinent points Hamish.
But what about David’s rejoinder about the speed issue of changing out blades? Your reference to “a lot less time consuming” in change over is simply untrue. Maybe you’re thinking about older machines which do not have indexed straight knives?
Even then, I’m not sure you’d be correct. Tell us more!
Many share your opinions, but this matter (straight versus helical) is absolutely not a “no brainer”. I’m a fine furniture maker, professional, and I use many exotic timbers, including Purple Heart (although not very often; you lucky bugger!!
:-). A new set of Tersa blades (which take two minutes to install) cuts Purple Heart very well indeed. You might agree, that the cutter head diameter (5” or larger; versus 4” or smaller) plays a very large part in whether there is tear-out. Thoughts?
So, to be clear, I’m comparing your comments with my experience with half a dozen thicknessers, including my current machine which is a Dual 51, 5” cutter head with Tersa knife system. I love the Tersa system.
Lucky
Dave you are correct regarding the type of material you mainly use having an effect on finish quality. Say if you had exclusive access to clear, straight grained softwood, or mahogany,
you get a quality better finish from straight knives.
If you are a fine woodworker then even if you are using top quality softwood, you are still going to have to handplane or finish sand for the best surface.?
If you are doing entry level, high volume production work in softwood, and can get good quality wood, I'd go for conventional blades.
If you work with many different woods, hardwoods, highly figured woods, less than perfect grain or knots, regular blades can give you serious tear out. After planing some fiddleback
purple heart, for a small tabletop, with regular knives, I needed to spend the best part of a full week scraping, then sanding the top smooth enough to get a top quality finish.
Not something you want to do when time =money.
Horses for courses, when we're talking about specificity. For many and varied tasks I'd choose a helical cutterhead, for its versatility?
?Hamish.
Hamish - I agree will everything except helical head.?
Too many people say that like it’s a no brainer. ?It’s not. Depending on what your main material is , it might leave a worse finish.?
As fir quickness of setting / changing blades , a Tersa head or similar is 10 to 50 times faster for changeover and doesn’t require a torque wrench.?
Dave
?
How serious of a hobbyist are you? Wanting to invest in a Hammer machine makes me think you are either a very serious hobbyist, small scale professional,? or someone with plenty
of money looking for something to spend it on.
If you are serious, yes definitely Hammer, great machine. I would also suggest?that you buy a model with a helical cutterhead. Less fiddly and less time consuming, changing blades
when compared with straight, one piece knives.? Longer blade life with solid carbide.
The newer cutterhead allows you to plane knotty, or seriously figured timber, or long boards that change grain direction several times, without any tear out. This means significantly
less time, effort needed for finishing. I mean light years difference. I cannot emphasise this enough.
If you have the funds I would invest in the 16" model. I have the 12" model. Yes it is rare that I need to plane or thickness a board wider than 12". I do sell my work occasionally,(not
enough to be a full time maker), and there are times when I really need that extra capacity. Having to do a work around, manually increases the labour time unnecessarily, and increases the cost of the job, cuts into your margins.
Hamish
|
Hi Hamish:
Nice. Emu Plains is a very nice part of the world. About 15 years ago I flew down to Sydney to see the Dual 51 in the Sydney showroom and bought it not long after.
I used to have a 1 car garage space so I know what it is like. You can do a lot, as I’m sure you do.
Ahem, I can’t justify a Sauer and Steiner either. I wanted a Mike Wenzloff saw and decided I couldn’t ever afford one, until one year I decided to go for it only to find that he had retired a few years earlier. Then Konradt had an accident and stopped making for a while and I realised that if I didn’t just order one, I’d probably never have one.
Besides, Holtey planes cost way too much! LOL
Yes, I have LNs, HNTs, and LVs as well. All very good planes. I use them a lot. I can’t say that the Sauer and Steiner is demonstrably better, but I LOVE it a whole lot more! And I use it. No putting it on the shelf for me.
Take care,
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Show quoted text
Hey Lucky, If I had the space I'd get a wide belt sander too. Very small shop, 1 car garage. Somehow I make it work(well most of the time, but it is pretty crammed).
Sauer and Steiner's have to be about the most beautiful hand planes ever made. It would be hard to justify me buying one(though I'd love to). Very envious. At the moment I can justify Lie Nielsens, HNT Gordons and Veritas. Not anywhere near the same ball park as Sauer & Steiner but I'll take what I can get.
I'm in outer Sydney, about 10 mins away from the NSW Felder dealer. Nice to meet another fellow Aussie woodworker.
Hamish.
Thanks for your explanations Hamish. I think we agree more than disagree; we are just finding solutions in different ways. For example, if I had excessive tear out on a chopping board, I’d just move on to my wide belt sander. Or if I was feeling particularly atavistic, I’d pull out my Sauer and Steiner smoother and get to work.?
I’m also in Australia (Brisbane) and know exactly what you mean about non-Australian timbers machining like butter. Where are you located? Cheers, Lucky ? Lucky, In the context of having to change or rotate every single individual blade on a helical cutterhead, I would agree with you. In practical use, as a serious hobbyist, or small fine woodworking business, the solid carbide cutters stay sharp many times longer than the standard blades. This means you don't need to change anywhere near as often. If you're a small volume, high quality worker, it could be many years before you need to. ?It also means if you get a nick in a helical carbide blade you can rotate the offending 1-2 blades. With regular knives if you get a nick, you have to change out the whole set.
I would also agree that straight grained purpleheart planes very well with regular knives. The fiddleback stuff gives me nightmares just thinking about it. Helical cutters no prob.
Where the helical cutterhead really shines is things like laminated cutting boards. I usually do several small batches a year. Sometimes, I make the mistake of orienting a laminate, the with the grain of one running in the opposite direction to all the others. You get a nasty surprise when try to flatten it after glue up, with the tear out on that one area, using regular blades. With a helical cutterhead, there is no problem. Straight to finish sanding, no time consuming divetts to sand out.
The machine I have is about 11 years old. I believe Tersa blades might have been an option at the time(???). I had the regular reversible blades, until I changed out the cutterhead last year for a helical. The reversible blades would be slower than Tersa, to change, but I didn't mind so much because I was used to the old style jointers, ancient method of using wrenches, where you tighten one bolt and the knives would move out of alignment somewhere else, and it takes hours to get a decent change.
I'm down here in Australia, where most of our hardwoods make working with oak feel like a softwood, and also have an abrasive high silica content to boot. I really notice the difference, when working with fine Northern hemisphere woods like walnut, cherry,? maple, or oak. They feel like planing butter in comparison.?
Hamish. Very pertinent points Hamish.
But what about David’s rejoinder about the speed issue of changing out blades? Your reference to “a lot less time consuming” in change over is simply untrue. Maybe you’re thinking about older machines which do not have indexed straight knives? Even then, I’m not sure you’d be correct. Tell us more!
Many share your opinions, but this matter (straight versus helical) is absolutely not a “no brainer”. I’m a fine furniture maker, professional, and I use many exotic timbers, including Purple Heart (although not very often; you lucky bugger!! :-). A new set of Tersa blades (which take two minutes to install) cuts Purple Heart very well indeed. You might agree, that the cutter head diameter (5” or larger; versus 4” or smaller) plays a very large part in whether there is tear-out. Thoughts?
So, to be clear, I’m comparing your comments with my experience with half a dozen thicknessers, including my current machine which is a Dual 51, 5” cutter head with Tersa knife system. I love the Tersa system.
Lucky
Dave you are correct regarding the type of material you mainly use having an effect on finish quality. Say if you had exclusive access to clear, straight grained softwood, or mahogany, you get a quality better finish from straight knives.
If you are a fine woodworker then even if you are using top quality softwood, you are still going to have to handplane or finish sand for the best surface.?
If you are doing entry level, high volume production work in softwood, and can get good quality wood, I'd go for conventional blades.
If you work with many different woods, hardwoods, highly figured woods, less than perfect grain or knots, regular blades can give you serious tear out. After planing some fiddleback purple heart, for a small tabletop, with regular knives, I needed to spend the best part of a full week scraping, then sanding the top smooth enough to get a top quality finish.
Not something you want to do when time =money.
Horses for courses, when we're talking about specificity. For many and varied tasks I'd choose a helical cutterhead, for its versatility?
?Hamish.
Hamish - I agree will everything except helical head.?
Too many people say that like it’s a no brainer. ?It’s not. Depending on what your main material is , it might leave a worse finish.?
As fir quickness of setting / changing blades , a Tersa head or similar is 10 to 50 times faster for changeover and doesn’t require a torque wrench.?
Dave ? How serious of a hobbyist are you? Wanting to invest in a Hammer machine makes me think you are either a very serious hobbyist, small scale professional,? or someone with plenty of money looking for something to spend it on.
If you are serious, yes definitely Hammer, great machine. I would also suggest?that you buy a model with a helical cutterhead. Less fiddly and less time consuming, changing blades when compared with straight, one piece knives.? Longer blade life with solid carbide. The newer cutterhead allows you to plane knotty, or seriously figured timber, or long boards that change grain direction several times, without any tear out. This means significantly less time, effort needed for finishing. I mean light years difference. I cannot emphasise this enough.
If you have the funds I would invest in the 16" model. I have the 12" model. Yes it is rare that I need to plane or thickness a board wider than 12". I do sell my work occasionally,(not enough to be a full time maker), and there are times when I really need that extra capacity. Having to do a work around, manually increases the labour time unnecessarily, and increases the cost of the job, cuts into your margins.
Hamish
|
I completely agree with Hamish.? When I had straight knives I NEVER went from planer to finish.? For fine projects I use a card scraper and for all
else they have sanded starting at 150 out of the drum sander and then orbital up to 320.? I love the finish on a board from a hand plane but I’ve never seen that with a power planer.? With straight knives there are tiny ridges running across the board and
with the Byrd head I get tiny scallops.? Both need to be removed.? I have lusted after a Japanese power plane but I essentially never work with soft wood and I almost always use the most figured wood I can.
?
I can sand out or hand scrape the tiny scallops but I can never sand out tear out.? ?On my jointer I went from conventional straight knives to a Terminus
head which is a Tersa clone.?? With fresh knives it cut amazing.? But after surfacing a couple hundred board feet of rough sawn hardwood the finish was so-so.? The knives just didn’t stay sharp.? Yes easy to change but for the finish I wanted it would have
cost me a ton of money. I suppose I could have modified my workflow to process all the rough sawn surfaces first and then swapped blades but I hate to change workflow. I swapped the 8” jointer to a Byrd and I loved it.? Then I upgraded to a 12” SCMI jointer
and the first thing I did was get a Byrd head.? Then my planer got one.
?
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From: [email protected] < [email protected]>
On Behalf Of Hamish Casimir
Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2021 3:41 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] 12" or 16" Jointer /Planer
?
Dave you are correct regarding the type of material you mainly use having an effect on finish quality. Say if you had exclusive access to clear, straight grained softwood, or mahogany, you get
a quality better finish from straight knives.
If you are a fine woodworker then even if you are using top quality softwood, you are still going to have to handplane or finish sand for the best surface.?
If you are doing entry level, high volume production work in softwood, and can get good quality wood, I'd go for conventional blades.
If you work with many different woods, hardwoods, highly figured woods, less than perfect grain or knots, regular blades can give you serious tear out. After planing some fiddleback purple heart,
for a small tabletop, with regular knives, I needed to spend the best part of a full week scraping, then sanding the top smooth enough to get a top quality finish.
Not something you want to do when time =money.
Horses for courses, when we're talking about specificity. For many and varied tasks I'd choose a helical cutterhead, for its versatility?
Hamish - I agree will everything except helical head.?
Too many people say that like it’s a no brainer. ?It’s not. Depending on what your main material is , it might leave a worse finish.?
As fir quickness of setting / changing blades , a Tersa head or similar is 10 to 50 times faster for changeover and doesn’t require a torque wrench.?
?
?
How serious of a hobbyist are you? Wanting to invest in a Hammer machine makes me think you are either a very serious hobbyist, small scale professional,? or someone with plenty of money looking
for something to spend it on.
If you are serious, yes definitely Hammer, great machine. I would also suggest?that you buy a model with a helical cutterhead. Less fiddly and less time consuming, changing blades when compared
with straight, one piece knives.? Longer blade life with solid carbide.
The newer cutterhead allows you to plane knotty, or seriously figured timber, or long boards that change grain direction several times, without any tear out. This means significantly less time,
effort needed for finishing. I mean light years difference. I cannot emphasise this enough.
If you have the funds I would invest in the 16" model. I have the 12" model. Yes it is rare that I need to plane or thickness a board wider than 12". I do sell my work occasionally,(not enough
to be a full time maker), and there are times when I really need that extra capacity. Having to do a work around, manually increases the labour time unnecessarily, and increases the cost of the job, cuts into your margins.
|
I have an A331 and had a similar battle and ultimately went with the 12”. It has been two yrs and I have only once came up against anything close to 12” max width. Large butcher blocks is one of the only things that I think would regularly need a larger jointer. Like mentioned above I would just use a router sled if I had something larger. Only thing that would be nice would be the longer beds.?
The machine arrived and I had no issues with table alignment?
|
Stan,
good info and thanks!? It seems there is a trend with the bigger beds on the 41 it is trickier to get them co-planer.? I have heard from several people that the 12" is a piece of cake but even though they love the capacity of the 41 some have had problems and maybe even had to pay to have a tech come in.? I would love to hear some details from owners of both sizes.? thanks again
|
I’ve had the Felder AD741 for 20 years now, adjusted a couple times over the years, mainly from moving it shop to shop, but no issues.
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Stan,
good info and thanks!? It seems there is a trend with the bigger beds on the 41 it is trickier to get them co-planer.? I have heard from several people that the 12" is a piece of cake but even though they love the capacity of the 41 some have had problems and maybe even had to pay to have a tech come in.? I would love to hear some details from owners of both sizes.? thanks again
|
I have a 16" General 880 jointer. It was the last straight knife head in the shop, and that was just unacceptable. Swapped it for the Byrd and have been happy ever since. I often run into 16" not being wide enough as I do a lot of slab work. My lumber supplier friend bought a brand new 20" SCM Le Invincible?jointer he doesn't really need last year. I'm drooling just thinking about it. I can't really justify $15k for a 4" wider jointer though...Even my 24" planer is too narrow sometimes. Good rule of thumb is to get as wide as you can afford and fit in the shop.
Jason Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
612 432-2765 -- Jason J. Holtz Furniture 3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
|
D Kilen,
This is going to be a generic response but you may find some information useful.
I am not sure if more problems reported on 41 (if that is true) necessarily means that it has more problems. It could be due to the fact that there are many more 41s sold compared to 31.
I have dual51 so cannot give you direct feed but in general the higher model usually has improvement in design, not sure if this is applicable here. This improved design could mean that 41 is more adjustable or easier to adjust. I would look into this.
One criticism of 41 (i think it was AD941 but not certain and not sure if it is still true with latest model) was the lack of spring assist in lifting the tables. I am 5’8” 60 yrs of age and 160# and I have no difficulty in lifting dual51 tables. This is something that a user does a lot so perhaps you can look into that.
Another major diff could be that 31 planer table has a single post vs 4 posts on 41. That is big on my list.
I would recommend checking both machines out. If you are not near a showroom check them out by locating a 31 & a 41 owner near you. Many of us here are perfectly willing to show machines, granted we have to be careful due to covid.
Good luck,
Imran
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On Jan 13, 2021, at 1:27 PM, dkilen@... wrote: ?Stan,
good info and thanks!? It seems there is a trend with the bigger beds on the 41 it is trickier to get them co-planer.? I have heard from several people that the 12" is a piece of cake but even though they love the capacity of the 41 some have had problems and maybe even had to pay to have a tech come in.? I would love to hear some details from owners of both sizes.? thanks again
|
I believe all the hammer j/p’s are the same build, ad941 is where the 4 post planer table begins, it is spring assist not too bad of a lift. I don’t think I would not get a 16” just because you heard it was harder to adjust, like Brian said once its set it pretty much sticks unless a big move then maybe a readjust is in order.
Helical has been great, couldn’t imagine going back to straight knife on a j/p combo, if separates then helical on planer, tersa on jointer. If I had a wide belt and separates then maybe tersa on planer as well. Wouldn’t worry about the time spent turning the carbides on the helical, you won’t be doing it that often.?
I had a 12” mm j/p for 30 years in addition to my scm 63b, glad I went to the 16” AND power drive, power drive has the ability to change your life! Of course you would need to jump to the ad741...
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On Jan 13, 2021, at 2:03 PM, imranindiana via groups.io <imranindiana@...> wrote:
? D Kilen,
This is going to be a generic response but you may find some information useful.
I am not sure if more problems reported on 41 (if that is true) necessarily means that it has more problems. It could be due to the fact that there are many more 41s sold compared to 31.
I have dual51 so cannot give you direct feed but in general the higher model usually has improvement in design, not sure if this is applicable here. This improved design could mean that 41 is more adjustable or easier to adjust. I would look into this.
One criticism of 41 (i think it was AD941 but not certain and not sure if it is still true with latest model) was the lack of spring assist in lifting the tables. I am 5’8” 60 yrs of age and 160# and I have no difficulty in lifting dual51 tables. This is something that a user does a lot so perhaps you can look into that.
Another major diff could be that 31 planer table has a single post vs 4 posts on 41. That is big on my list.
I would recommend checking both machines out. If you are not near a showroom check them out by locating a 31 & a 41 owner near you. Many of us here are perfectly willing to show machines, granted we have to be careful due to covid.
Good luck,
Imran
On Jan 13, 2021, at 1:27 PM, dkilen@... wrote:
?Stan,
good info and thanks!? It seems there is a trend with the bigger beds on the 41 it is trickier to get them co-planer.? I have heard from several people that the 12" is a piece of cake but even though they love the capacity of the 41 some have had problems and maybe even had to pay to have a tech come in.? I would love to hear some details from owners of both sizes.? thanks again
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Aren’t carbide knives offers by Tersa?
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On Jan 13, 2021, at 2:20 PM, Mark Kessler <mkessler10@...> wrote:
? I believe all the hammer j/p’s are the same build, ad941 is where the 4 post planer table begins, it is spring assist not too bad of a lift. I don’t think I would not get a 16” just because you heard it was harder to adjust, like Brian said once its set it pretty much sticks unless a big move then maybe a readjust is in order.
Helical has been great, couldn’t imagine going back to straight knife on a j/p combo, if separates then helical on planer, tersa on jointer. If I had a wide belt and separates then maybe tersa on planer as well. Wouldn’t worry about the time spent turning the carbides on the helical, you won’t be doing it that often.?
I had a 12” mm j/p for 30 years in addition to my scm 63b, glad I went to the 16” AND power drive, power drive has the ability to change your life! Of course you would need to jump to the ad741... On Jan 13, 2021, at 2:03 PM, imranindiana via groups.io <imranindiana@...> wrote:
? D Kilen,
This is going to be a generic response but you may find some information useful.
I am not sure if more problems reported on 41 (if that is true) necessarily means that it has more problems. It could be due to the fact that there are many more 41s sold compared to 31.
I have dual51 so cannot give you direct feed but in general the higher model usually has improvement in design, not sure if this is applicable here. This improved design could mean that 41 is more adjustable or easier to adjust. I would look into this.
One criticism of 41 (i think it was AD941 but not certain and not sure if it is still true with latest model) was the lack of spring assist in lifting the tables. I am 5’8” 60 yrs of age and 160# and I have no difficulty in lifting dual51 tables. This is something that a user does a lot so perhaps you can look into that.
Another major diff could be that 31 planer table has a single post vs 4 posts on 41. That is big on my list.
I would recommend checking both machines out. If you are not near a showroom check them out by locating a 31 & a 41 owner near you. Many of us here are perfectly willing to show machines, granted we have to be careful due to covid.
Good luck,
Imran
On Jan 13, 2021, at 1:27 PM, dkilen@... wrote:
?Stan,
good info and thanks!? It seems there is a trend with the bigger beds on the 41 it is trickier to get them co-planer.? I have heard from several people that the 12" is a piece of cake but even though they love the capacity of the 41 some have had problems and maybe even had to pay to have a tech come in.? I would love to hear some details from owners of both sizes.? thanks again
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Carbide is offered by Tersa and those who use them feel they are worth the heavy price.? I think Joe Calhoon runs two carbide with two blanks and feels the two knife head gives him the best compromise.? Two knife heads used to be common on euro machines with
large diameter heads running at 5000-6000 rpm.? The attack angle and tip speed were such that the finish was supposedly very good.? My Bauerle is in transit and has a two knife head so I will have some experience in the future.? Dave
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Aren’t carbide knives offers by Tersa?
D
On Jan 13, 2021, at 2:20 PM, Mark Kessler <mkessler10@...> wrote:
?I believe all the hammer j/p’s are the same build, ad941 is where the 4 post planer table begins, it is spring assist not too bad of a lift. I don’t think I would not get a 16” just because you heard it was harder to adjust, like Brian said
once its set it pretty much sticks unless a big move then maybe a readjust is in order.
Helical has been great, couldn’t imagine going back to straight knife on a j/p combo, if separates then helical on planer, tersa on jointer. If I had a wide belt and separates then maybe tersa on planer as well. Wouldn’t worry about the time spent turning
the carbides on the helical, you won’t be doing it that often.?
I had a 12” mm j/p for 30 years in addition to my scm 63b, glad I went to the 16” AND power drive, power drive has the ability to change your life! Of course you would need to jump to the ad741...
On Jan 13, 2021, at 2:03 PM, imranindiana via groups.io <imranindiana@...> wrote:
?
D Kilen,
This is going to be a generic response but you may find some information useful.
I am not sure if more problems reported on 41 (if that is true) necessarily means that it has more problems. It could be due to the fact that there are many more 41s sold compared to 31.
I have dual51 so cannot give you direct feed but in general the higher model usually has improvement in design, not sure if this is applicable here. This improved design could mean that 41 is more adjustable or easier to adjust. I would look
into this.
One criticism of 41 (i think it was AD941 but not certain and not sure if it is still true with latest model) was the lack of spring assist in lifting the tables. I am 5’8” 60 yrs of age and 160# and I have no difficulty in lifting dual51 tables.
This is something that a user does a lot so perhaps you can look into that.
Another major diff could be that 31 planer table has a single post vs 4 posts on 41. That is big on my list.
I would recommend checking both machines out. If you are not near a showroom check them out by locating a 31 & a 41 owner near you. Many of us here are perfectly willing to show machines, granted we have to be careful due to covid.
Good luck,
Imran
On Jan 13, 2021, at 1:27 PM, dkilen@... wrote:
?Stan,
good info and thanks!? It seems there is a trend with the bigger beds on the 41 it is trickier to get them co-planer.? I have heard from several people that the 12" is a piece of cake but even though they love the capacity of the 41 some have had problems and
maybe even had to pay to have a tech come in.? I would love to hear some details from owners of both sizes.? thanks again
|
I speak with annotated photos here. ?
I am not a fan of flip-up table style jointers, especially when the tables are wider than 12". ?I’ve owned three now, all 20” width, and they are complex to align, and the cam-elevation system that replaced the parallelogram system in the mid-2000’s has proven to be less reliable in maintaining alignment. ?If I were buying a jointer today, I would strongly consider the Felder AD951L or the Plan 51L since neither of these jointers have flip-up tables. ?All the other jointers in the Felder line-up have flip-up tables - even the smaller stand alone jointers. ?I would also be looking seriously at the SCM equipment, specifically the Nova f 410 or 520: ??
David Best
https://www.instagram.com/davidpbest/
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Stan,
good info and thanks!? It seems there is a trend with the bigger beds on the 41 it is trickier to get them co-planer.? I have heard from several people that the 12" is a piece of cake but even though they love the capacity of the 41 some have had problems and maybe even had to pay to have a tech come in.? I would love to hear some details from owners of both sizes.? thanks again
|
Love all the information and suggestions.? I think the A3-41 is about the top of what I am willing to spend.? still have more tools on my list to buy...I suppose I always will.
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The Hammer A3-41 has the single pole lifting; however, it does have spring assists on both tables, which are co-planar.?
I had a 12" J/P and sold it last summer, as I often wanted to joint surfaces wider than 14". I have a Hammer A3-41 coming next month (?). Covid caused an 8 month wait.?
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David Luckensmeyer
Joe Jensen
Jason Holtz
imran
David P. Best