?

?

?

Not meant to be sarcastic…I read all the time that 15,000 is too slow for small bits.? Is there engineering behind this?? Seems like RPM and feed rate and chip removal are related.? Higher RPM allows for a faster feed rate. But also if the feed rate is too low relative to the RPM you get poor results.? For commercial cutters for the shaper you often get given the ideal RPM/Feed rate.?

?

I have not used my router inverted in a table since getting my Felder early 2010.? The router spindle with my machine was rated for 19,000 rpm continuously, and for up to 23,000 RPM for short use with higher bearing wear.? I’ve tried small bits at 15,000, 19,000, and 23,000 RPM and not noticed any difference.

?

Could be that single speed routers all ran at a nominal 22,000-23,000 with no load and bigger bits were a problem with vibration.? So then when router bits west big they made variable speed routers to slow them down for big bits and maybe that’s where “you need 22,000 RPM to run small bits” wisdom arose?

?

Also, ever notice how with a very light cut at 22K RPM with pitch is high and as soon as you load the router down the pitch lowers a lot? What RPM is the motor actually running at under load?? With my 4kw shaper motor my 15K RPM spindle doesn’t slow at all.? I would not be surprised at all to see that under load routers slow down a lot.

?

So, does anyone have science or engineering on the Intrawebs wisdom that says 15,000 RPM is too slow?

?

?

?

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Eric Janson
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2020 1:51 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111

?

?

On Dec 28, 2020, at 10:35 AM, imranindiana via <imranindiana@...> wrote:

My machine has generic guide that is based upon recommended feed rate between 40 & 70m/s

<image0.jpeg>

lower feed rate than 40m/s can result in kickback and higher than 75m/s can cause damage to tooling not to mention excessive wear if the tool continues to run w/o damage.

There is a graph in the manual that further refined this with inclusion of cutter length b

<image1.jpeg>

I know this does not cover router spindle. Has anyone seen a graph like above from Felder for router spindle?

Imran

On Dec 28, 2020, at 12:02 PM, Joe Jensen <joe.jensen@...> wrote:

?

Not meant to be sarcastic…I read all the time that 15,000 is too slow for small bits.? Is there engineering behind this?? Seems like RPM and feed rate and chip removal are related.? Higher RPM allows for a faster feed rate. But also if the feed rate is too low relative to the RPM you get poor results.? For commercial cutters for the shaper you often get given the ideal RPM/Feed rate.?

?

I have not used my router inverted in a table since getting my Felder early 2010.? The router spindle with my machine was rated for 19,000 rpm continuously, and for up to 23,000 RPM for short use with higher bearing wear.? I’ve tried small bits at 15,000, 19,000, and 23,000 RPM and not noticed any difference.

?

Could be that single speed routers all ran at a nominal 22,000-23,000 with no load and bigger bits were a problem with vibration.? So then when router bits west big they made variable speed routers to slow them down for big bits and maybe that’s where “you need 22,000 RPM to run small bits” wisdom arose?

?

Also, ever notice how with a very light cut at 22K RPM with pitch is high and as soon as you load the router down the pitch lowers a lot? What RPM is the motor actually running at under load?? With my 4kw shaper motor my 15K RPM spindle doesn’t slow at all.? I would not be surprised at all to see that under load routers slow down a lot.

?

So, does anyone have science or engineering on the Intrawebs wisdom that says 15,000 RPM is too slow?

?

?

?

From:?[email protected]?<[email protected]>?On Behalf Of?Eric Janson
Sent:?Sunday, December 27, 2020 1:51 PM
To:?[email protected]
Subject:?Re: [FOG] Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111

?

This spindle works at 15,000 rpm, so for smaller- diameter router bits the cutting edge speed is kind of low. For larger bits and deeper cuts, it works great, having many HP behind it, and is as close to totally?vibration- free as you are going to get. Changing spindles is not difficult, but changing back and forth is a pain, so my cast- iron router table is my go- to for that sort of work unless I feel I really need what the Felder spindle brings.

Cheers

Eric

?

On Sun, Dec 27, 2020 at 7:05 AM imranindiana via??<imranindiana=[email protected]> wrote:

Just sharing. I have no knowledge of this part.

Look at this on eBay

Imran

?

On 28 Dec 2020, at 17:48, Michael Marsico <michael.marsico1@...> wrote:

?

I don’t know the engineering but have used the high speed router spindle with router bits and have not had any issues

?

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Joe Jensen
Sent: Monday, December 28, 2020 12:02 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111

?

Not meant to be sarcastic…I read all the time that 15,000 is too slow for small bits.? Is there engineering behind this?? Seems like RPM and feed rate and chip removal are related.? Higher RPM allows for a faster feed rate. But also if the feed rate is too low relative to the RPM you get poor results.? For commercial cutters for the shaper you often get given the ideal RPM/Feed rate.?

?

I have not used my router inverted in a table since getting my Felder early 2010.? The router spindle with my machine was rated for 19,000 rpm continuously, and for up to 23,000 RPM for short use with higher bearing wear.? I’ve tried small bits at 15,000, 19,000, and 23,000 RPM and not noticed any difference.

?

Could be that single speed routers all ran at a nominal 22,000-23,000 with no load and bigger bits were a problem with vibration.? So then when router bits west big they made variable speed routers to slow them down for big bits and maybe that’s where “you need 22,000 RPM to run small bits” wisdom arose?

?

Also, ever notice how with a very light cut at 22K RPM with pitch is high and as soon as you load the router down the pitch lowers a lot? What RPM is the motor actually running at under load?? With my 4kw shaper motor my 15K RPM spindle doesn’t slow at all.? I would not be surprised at all to see that under load routers slow down a lot.

?

So, does anyone have science or engineering on the Intrawebs wisdom that says 15,000 RPM is too slow?

?

?

?

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Eric Janson
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2020 1:51 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111

?

This spindle works at 15,000 rpm, so for smaller- diameter router bits the cutting edge speed is kind of low. For larger bits and deeper cuts, it works great, having many HP behind it, and is as close to totally?vibration- free as you are going to get. Changing spindles is not difficult, but changing back and forth is a pain, so my cast- iron router table is my go- to for that sort of work unless I feel I really need what the Felder spindle brings.

Cheers

Eric

?

On Sun, Dec 27, 2020 at 7:05 AM imranindiana via <imranindiana=[email protected]> wrote:

Just sharing. I have no knowledge of this part.

<~WRD0001.jpg>

Look at this on eBay

Imran

?

On Dec 28, 2020, at 12:41 PM, Brett Wissel <Brettwissel@...> wrote:

The problem?with math is that it is theoretical until proven in practice. In regular?math calculations, my CNC router should?run maxed out 24k rpms and burn up the material at 2000ipm. But, in reality it is happier in most wood materials running in the 16k to 18k range and much lower speeds like 250-500ipm sometimes?in tougher plywoods, but more like 10-12 ipm in hardwoods with grain problems and a lot of tool engagement. I can and have caused situations where the cutter force is so great the workholding just can't resist it and pieces slide. So there's that. Also nearly every bit I've broken has been from flexing/vibration fatigue.

I find two major reasons for lower router speeds in regular router tables - 1) to keep from burning up guide bearings and getting too much heat from shaft flex (esp. with 1/4" shafts), 2) the frequency and poles of most of the drive motors mean the range they run is a happy compromise between torque/hp/speed for most practical?uses and available motor configurations.

But my feeling with the 15k rpm router spindle in the shaper table is mostly that it is a sweetly smooth running setup, and feeling how hard it pushes your bits you are probably more likely to cause the bit shaft to heat up and break before anything else on a shaper. Yes, I've done that too. Increasing the rpms creates a pulley-ratio problem as well as a vibration-safety problem. Also as at some point you get the spindle pulley bigger than the bearings and now the shaper spindle isn't going to fit in the machine - somewhere in these thoughts is most likely the culprit as to why the router spindle OEM setting is 15k.?

On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 12:59 PM Brian Lamb <blamb11@...> wrote:

Pretty simple to figure out, they claim the sweet spot is 60m/second. You take 60 (m/s)x1000 (mm per m) x60 (seconds per minute)= 3,600,000 mm per minute. Then you calculate the circumference, say it’s a 13mm router bit (close to 1/2”), so 3.1416x13=40.84mm circumference. 3,600,000/40.84=88,148 rpm.?

Unless I f’ed up my math, you are not ever going to get that sort of rpm, fastest CNC routers I’ve seen are in the 28k to 32k rpm. So all of this is a mute point, suffice it to say, the rpm that the Felder router spindle spins (15k on non VFD machines, 20k on VFD machines) is more than sufficient to work well with all but the smallest of cutters, I’ve tried 3/16 and not so good, 1/4” and up seem to work fine. The larger your diameter of cutter the slower the rpm can be.

Brian Lamb
blamb11@...

On Dec 28, 2020, at 10:35 AM, imranindiana via <imranindiana@...> wrote:

My machine has generic guide that is based upon recommended feed rate between 40 & 70m/s

<image0.jpeg>

lower feed rate than 40m/s can result in kickback and higher than 75m/s can cause damage to tooling not to mention excessive wear if the tool continues to run w/o damage.

There is a graph in the manual that further refined this with inclusion of cutter length b

<image1.jpeg>

I know this does not cover router spindle. Has anyone seen a graph like above from Felder for router spindle?

Imran

On Dec 28, 2020, at 12:02 PM, Joe Jensen <joe.jensen@...> wrote:

?

Not meant to be sarcastic…I read all the time that 15,000 is too slow for small bits.? Is there engineering behind this?? Seems like RPM and feed rate and chip removal are related.? Higher RPM allows for a faster feed rate. But also if the feed rate is too low relative to the RPM you get poor results.? For commercial cutters for the shaper you often get given the ideal RPM/Feed rate.?

?

I have not used my router inverted in a table since getting my Felder early 2010.? The router spindle with my machine was rated for 19,000 rpm continuously, and for up to 23,000 RPM for short use with higher bearing wear.? I’ve tried small bits at 15,000, 19,000, and 23,000 RPM and not noticed any difference.

?

Could be that single speed routers all ran at a nominal 22,000-23,000 with no load and bigger bits were a problem with vibration.? So then when router bits west big they made variable speed routers to slow them down for big bits and maybe that’s where “you need 22,000 RPM to run small bits” wisdom arose?

?

Also, ever notice how with a very light cut at 22K RPM with pitch is high and as soon as you load the router down the pitch lowers a lot? What RPM is the motor actually running at under load?? With my 4kw shaper motor my 15K RPM spindle doesn’t slow at all.? I would not be surprised at all to see that under load routers slow down a lot.

?

So, does anyone have science or engineering on the Intrawebs wisdom that says 15,000 RPM is too slow?

?

?

?

From:?[email protected]?<[email protected]>?On Behalf Of?Eric Janson
Sent:?Sunday, December 27, 2020 1:51 PM
To:?[email protected]
Subject:?Re: [FOG] Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111

?

This spindle works at 15,000 rpm, so for smaller- diameter router bits the cutting edge speed is kind of low. For larger bits and deeper cuts, it works great, having many HP behind it, and is as close to totally?vibration- free as you are going to get. Changing spindles is not difficult, but changing back and forth is a pain, so my cast- iron router table is my go- to for that sort of work unless I feel I really need what the Felder spindle brings.

Cheers

Eric

?

On Sun, Dec 27, 2020 at 7:05 AM imranindiana via??<imranindiana=[email protected]> wrote:

Just sharing. I have no knowledge of this part.

Look at this on eBay

Imran

?

--

Brett Wissel
Saint Louis Restoration
1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd)
St Louis, MO 63110

314.772.2167
brett@...

On Dec 28, 2020, at 1:35 PM, Brett Wissel <Brettwissel@...> wrote:

Brian,?

My point wasn't an argument against your position, Brian! No argument with your math or points, I fully agree that you have to start with the math. I just hate it that I can seldom perform my CNC router as well as the math says I should and I'm certain I've rarely run hand-feeding on a standard router table to match what chip loads and feed rate calculations would suggest.? The problem beyond machine?capability/rigidity is the material itself. The CNC router learning curve has taught me that practically?cutting solid? wood for the routers is often?limited by the workholding methods and the stock itself - the wood - can't sustain the forces the machines might be capable of pushing against them at max performance, much less the variability of the strengths throughout the boards and orientations of grain. Engineered products with more consistency beyond solid lumber you?can?get the math to match the practice, and enact workholding that can resist heavy cutting forces. I have accomplished this with only 1/2" dia end mills though my machine can push larger tools.

At least with most metals you have higher and more consistent tensile and shear strength throughout the stock without hidden internal defects and such as wood. Wood is just all over the place physical-properties-wise.

If the router spindle in the shaper table were sped up another 100% I'm not sure one could practically enjoy a 100% performance boost, my main reasoning in my experience is that's because you are still putting that force against the same tool shaft trying to deflect it.?

On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 2:01 PM Brian Lamb <blamb11@...> wrote:

A lot of what is theoretical vs. practical is dependent upon the rigidity of the machine. You might be able to really put rpm and ipm to use in a big Onsrud or Thermwood router, be at 1/2 or 1/4 of that with a ShopSabre or Camaster type machine and well below that with a light duty table top type machine. Doesn’t mean the carbide cutter shouldn’t be running at 88k rpm and 880ipm ?(for a two fluter), it is more that the machine can’t sustain those types of forces and speeds.

In metalworking we deal with SFPM, chip load per tooth, depth of cut and axial cut all the time. All of it vary much dependent upon the machine you are trying to use.

Brian Lamb
blamb11@...

On Dec 28, 2020, at 12:41 PM, Brett Wissel <Brettwissel@...> wrote:

The problem?with math is that it is theoretical until proven in practice. In regular?math calculations, my CNC router should?run maxed out 24k rpms and burn up the material at 2000ipm. But, in reality it is happier in most wood materials running in the 16k to 18k range and much lower speeds like 250-500ipm sometimes?in tougher plywoods, but more like 10-12 ipm in hardwoods with grain problems and a lot of tool engagement. I can and have caused situations where the cutter force is so great the workholding just can't resist it and pieces slide. So there's that. Also nearly every bit I've broken has been from flexing/vibration fatigue.

I find two major reasons for lower router speeds in regular router tables - 1) to keep from burning up guide bearings and getting too much heat from shaft flex (esp. with 1/4" shafts), 2) the frequency and poles of most of the drive motors mean the range they run is a happy compromise between torque/hp/speed for most practical?uses and available motor configurations.

But my feeling with the 15k rpm router spindle in the shaper table is mostly that it is a sweetly smooth running setup, and feeling how hard it pushes your bits you are probably more likely to cause the bit shaft to heat up and break before anything else on a shaper. Yes, I've done that too. Increasing the rpms creates a pulley-ratio problem as well as a vibration-safety problem. Also as at some point you get the spindle pulley bigger than the bearings and now the shaper spindle isn't going to fit in the machine - somewhere in these thoughts is most likely the culprit as to why the router spindle OEM setting is 15k.?

On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 12:59 PM Brian Lamb <blamb11@...> wrote:

Pretty simple to figure out, they claim the sweet spot is 60m/second. You take 60 (m/s)x1000 (mm per m) x60 (seconds per minute)= 3,600,000 mm per minute. Then you calculate the circumference, say it’s a 13mm router bit (close to 1/2”), so 3.1416x13=40.84mm circumference. 3,600,000/40.84=88,148 rpm.?

Unless I f’ed up my math, you are not ever going to get that sort of rpm, fastest CNC routers I’ve seen are in the 28k to 32k rpm. So all of this is a mute point, suffice it to say, the rpm that the Felder router spindle spins (15k on non VFD machines, 20k on VFD machines) is more than sufficient to work well with all but the smallest of cutters, I’ve tried 3/16 and not so good, 1/4” and up seem to work fine. The larger your diameter of cutter the slower the rpm can be.

Brian Lamb
blamb11@...

On Dec 28, 2020, at 10:35 AM, imranindiana via <imranindiana@...> wrote:

My machine has generic guide that is based upon recommended feed rate between 40 & 70m/s

<image0.jpeg>

lower feed rate than 40m/s can result in kickback and higher than 75m/s can cause damage to tooling not to mention excessive wear if the tool continues to run w/o damage.

There is a graph in the manual that further refined this with inclusion of cutter length b

<image1.jpeg>

I know this does not cover router spindle. Has anyone seen a graph like above from Felder for router spindle?

Imran

On Dec 28, 2020, at 12:02 PM, Joe Jensen <joe.jensen@...> wrote:

?

Not meant to be sarcastic…I read all the time that 15,000 is too slow for small bits.? Is there engineering behind this?? Seems like RPM and feed rate and chip removal are related.? Higher RPM allows for a faster feed rate. But also if the feed rate is too low relative to the RPM you get poor results.? For commercial cutters for the shaper you often get given the ideal RPM/Feed rate.?

?

I have not used my router inverted in a table since getting my Felder early 2010.? The router spindle with my machine was rated for 19,000 rpm continuously, and for up to 23,000 RPM for short use with higher bearing wear.? I’ve tried small bits at 15,000, 19,000, and 23,000 RPM and not noticed any difference.

?

Could be that single speed routers all ran at a nominal 22,000-23,000 with no load and bigger bits were a problem with vibration.? So then when router bits west big they made variable speed routers to slow them down for big bits and maybe that’s where “you need 22,000 RPM to run small bits” wisdom arose?

?

Also, ever notice how with a very light cut at 22K RPM with pitch is high and as soon as you load the router down the pitch lowers a lot? What RPM is the motor actually running at under load?? With my 4kw shaper motor my 15K RPM spindle doesn’t slow at all.? I would not be surprised at all to see that under load routers slow down a lot.

?

So, does anyone have science or engineering on the Intrawebs wisdom that says 15,000 RPM is too slow?

?

?

?

From:?[email protected]?<[email protected]>?On Behalf Of?Eric Janson
Sent:?Sunday, December 27, 2020 1:51 PM
To:?[email protected]
Subject:?Re: [FOG] Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111

?

This spindle works at 15,000 rpm, so for smaller- diameter router bits the cutting edge speed is kind of low. For larger bits and deeper cuts, it works great, having many HP behind it, and is as close to totally?vibration- free as you are going to get. Changing spindles is not difficult, but changing back and forth is a pain, so my cast- iron router table is my go- to for that sort of work unless I feel I really need what the Felder spindle brings.

Cheers

Eric

?

On Sun, Dec 27, 2020 at 7:05 AM imranindiana via??<imranindiana=[email protected]> wrote:

Just sharing. I have no knowledge of this part.

Look at this on eBay

Imran

?

--

Brett Wissel
Saint Louis Restoration
1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd)
St Louis, MO 63110

314.772.2167
brett@...

--

Brett Wissel
Saint Louis Restoration
1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd)
St Louis, MO 63110

314.772.2167
brett@...

?

?

Number of flutes is important too.

?

?

?

Hi Joe,

?

I did not post because I did not think I good useable info but here it is anyways.

?

I choose b=100 because it has lines for the smallest cutter dia on all 4 plots. So I replotted b=100 lines from 4 diff graphs onto a single graph. Then I extrapolated for smaller spindle dia of 10mm & 20mm. Then extrapolated for cutter dia less than 100mm. So now we have this:

?

?

However, 4” (100mm) is not a realistic cutting edge for a router bit. I thought anymore extrapolation (which would move 10mm & 20mm curves in NE direction) would likely be not valid. If Felder provided more data (for smaller cutter dia) for b=10 in their plots then it would be a more appropriate to repeat the above exercise.

?

Here is the data for above graph

?

Imran

?

?

Number of flutes is important too.

?

?

?

?