|
Bill,? I’ve gone my entire professional career without a dedicated router table. When I really need one, I set up a piece of board on some Euro saw horses, and set up a temporary production run. Otherwise I use the shaper or a hand held router.?
I do plan on making a router table one day, but it will be a bench version that I can shove out of the way. I will never dedicate floor space to said table while I have a shaper ready to go.?
Of course, what you’re making is also a consideration. I have a genuine need for a router table about once every two months. If I needed one every week I’d disregard my comments above.?
You’ve brought up a good point we all wrestle with. Hope this helps you.?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 1 Jan 2021, at 8:49 am, Bill Belanger <Bill@...> wrote:
? Wondering how many of you who have a shaper, also have a router table? I have one of both, but I'm thinking in my little shop I could use the room? I'm just getting setup, so haven't really had the full use of the shop enough to see how badly I need both.
Thanks in advance Bill Bélanger
My most used router bit is a 1/8” round over. Most of the time it’s in the router spindle already.? It’s removing almost nothing but the cut is great.?
Used a 45 bevel router bit yesterday in the router spindle (never even looked at the RPM setting on the VFD) and it’s cutting diameter the way I used it was like 7/8”.? Just removing a small amount of stock.?
?
If anyone has any experiment ideas I would be happy to run some tests at 15,000 and 23,000 to see the difference using a power feeder.? Could but a
new bit and test at the two RPM settings and 2 or 3 feed rates.
?
?
Tip speed is most critical.? Feed speed can compensate for fast tip speed but not slow.? Number of flutes helps the cuts per inch but doesn't help when the tip speed slow other than potentially
having each flute take less cut.? My experience with the 15K limit on the Felder is that core box and cove bits give me the most problem as speed is slow and a fair amount of stock needs to be removed.? I run those bits at 23K but most others seem to work
at the 15K range.? Dave
Hi Joe,
?
I did not post because I did not think I good useable info but here it is anyways.
?
I choose b=100 because it has lines for the smallest cutter dia on all 4 plots. So I replotted b=100 lines from 4 diff graphs onto a single graph. Then I extrapolated for smaller spindle dia of 10mm & 20mm. Then extrapolated for cutter
dia less than 100mm. So now we have this:
?
<image001.png>
?
However, 4” (100mm) is not a realistic cutting edge for a router bit. I thought anymore extrapolation (which would move 10mm & 20mm curves in NE direction) would likely be not valid. If Felder provided more data (for smaller cutter dia)
for b=10 in their plots then it would be a more appropriate to repeat the above exercise.
?
Here is the data for above graph
<image002.jpg>
?
Imran
?
From: [email protected]
On Behalf Of Joe Jensen
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2020 11:13 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111
?
Number of flutes is important too.
?
?
would be interesting to put the data points from the 4 graphs to see if the relationship is linear. If so we can easily extrapolate if fir router use.
?
My machine has generic guide that is based upon recommended feed rate between 40 & 70m/s
lower feed rate than 40m/s can result in kickback and higher than 75m/s can cause damage to tooling not to mention excessive wear if the tool continues to run w/o damage.
There is a graph in the manual that further refined this with inclusion of cutter length b
I know this does not cover router spindle. Has anyone seen a graph like above from Felder for router spindle?
?
Not meant to be sarcastic…I read all the time that 15,000 is too slow for small bits.? Is there engineering behind this?? Seems like RPM and feed rate
and chip removal are related.? Higher RPM allows for a faster feed rate. But also if the feed rate is too low relative to the RPM you get poor results.? For commercial cutters for the shaper you often get given the ideal RPM/Feed rate.?
?
I have not used my router inverted in a table since getting my Felder early 2010.? The router spindle with my machine was rated for 19,000 rpm continuously,
and for up to 23,000 RPM for short use with higher bearing wear.? I’ve tried small bits at 15,000, 19,000, and 23,000 RPM and not noticed any difference.
?
Could be that single speed routers all ran at a nominal 22,000-23,000 with no load and bigger bits were a problem with vibration.? So then when router
bits west big they made variable speed routers to slow them down for big bits and maybe that’s where “you need 22,000 RPM to run small bits” wisdom arose?
?
Also, ever notice how with a very light cut at 22K RPM with pitch is high and as soon as you load the router down the pitch lowers a lot? What RPM
is the motor actually running at under load?? With my 4kw shaper motor my 15K RPM spindle doesn’t slow at all.? I would not be surprised at all to see that under load routers slow down a lot.
?
So, does anyone have science or engineering on the Intrawebs wisdom that says 15,000 RPM is too slow?
?
?
?
From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
On Behalf Of Eric Janson
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2020 1:51 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111
?
This spindle works at 15,000 rpm, so for smaller- diameter router bits the cutting edge speed is kind of low. For larger bits and deeper cuts, it works great, having many HP behind it, and is as close to totally?vibration- free as you
are going to get. Changing spindles is not difficult, but changing back and forth is a pain, so my cast- iron router table is my go- to for that sort of work unless I feel I really need what the Felder spindle brings.
?
On Sun, Dec 27, 2020 at 7:05 AM imranindiana via <imranindiana=[email protected]> wrote:
Just sharing. I have no knowledge of this part.
Look at this on eBay
Imran
?
|
It does help Lucky. I bought the router table for my new shop because?I always had one. I bought the shaper on recommendation from my salesman?but he told me NOT to bother buying the router spindle, that it was quicker and easier to use a router table, but I got the spindle anyway. I'm just setting up and my?first opotunity?was to use the shaper for something too big for the router table, and watching this?thread (which it looks like I hijacked, oops, just realized and I apologize) looks like I might be able to use the F700Z all the time. I'd much rather do that, since I've always had issues with the router table with chatter etc. So I think my best bet is to force myself to use the shaper exclusively for 6 months?or so and see how it goes. Thanks again for your response.
Bill Bélanger
On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 4:24 PM David Luckensmeyer < dhluckens@...> wrote: Bill,? I’ve gone my entire professional career without a dedicated router table. When I really need one, I set up a piece of board on some Euro saw horses, and set up a temporary production run. Otherwise I use the shaper or a hand held router.?
I do plan on making a router table one day, but it will be a bench version that I can shove out of the way. I will never dedicate floor space to said table while I have a shaper ready to go.?
Of course, what you’re making is also a consideration. I have a genuine need for a router table about once every two months. If I needed one every week I’d disregard my comments above.?
You’ve brought up a good point we all wrestle with. Hope this helps you.? On 1 Jan 2021, at 8:49 am, Bill Belanger <Bill@...> wrote:
? Wondering how many of you who have a shaper, also have a router table? I have one of both, but I'm thinking in my little shop I could use the room? I'm just getting setup, so haven't really had the full use of the shop enough to see how badly I need both.
Thanks in advance Bill Bélanger
My most used router bit is a 1/8” round over. Most of the time it’s in the router spindle already.? It’s removing almost nothing but the cut is great.?
Used a 45 bevel router bit yesterday in the router spindle (never even looked at the RPM setting on the VFD) and it’s cutting diameter the way I used it was like 7/8”.? Just removing a small amount of stock.?
?
If anyone has any experiment ideas I would be happy to run some tests at 15,000 and 23,000 to see the difference using a power feeder.? Could but a
new bit and test at the two RPM settings and 2 or 3 feed rates.
?
?
Tip speed is most critical.? Feed speed can compensate for fast tip speed but not slow.? Number of flutes helps the cuts per inch but doesn't help when the tip speed slow other than potentially
having each flute take less cut.? My experience with the 15K limit on the Felder is that core box and cove bits give me the most problem as speed is slow and a fair amount of stock needs to be removed.? I run those bits at 23K but most others seem to work
at the 15K range.? Dave
Hi Joe,
?
I did not post because I did not think I good useable info but here it is anyways.
?
I choose b=100 because it has lines for the smallest cutter dia on all 4 plots. So I replotted b=100 lines from 4 diff graphs onto a single graph. Then I extrapolated for smaller spindle dia of 10mm & 20mm. Then extrapolated for cutter
dia less than 100mm. So now we have this:
?
<image001.png>
?
However, 4” (100mm) is not a realistic cutting edge for a router bit. I thought anymore extrapolation (which would move 10mm & 20mm curves in NE direction) would likely be not valid. If Felder provided more data (for smaller cutter dia)
for b=10 in their plots then it would be a more appropriate to repeat the above exercise.
?
Here is the data for above graph
<image002.jpg>
?
Imran
?
From: [email protected]
On Behalf Of Joe Jensen
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2020 11:13 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111
?
Number of flutes is important too.
?
?
would be interesting to put the data points from the 4 graphs to see if the relationship is linear. If so we can easily extrapolate if fir router use.
?
My machine has generic guide that is based upon recommended feed rate between 40 & 70m/s
lower feed rate than 40m/s can result in kickback and higher than 75m/s can cause damage to tooling not to mention excessive wear if the tool continues to run w/o damage.
There is a graph in the manual that further refined this with inclusion of cutter length b
I know this does not cover router spindle. Has anyone seen a graph like above from Felder for router spindle?
?
Not meant to be sarcastic…I read all the time that 15,000 is too slow for small bits.? Is there engineering behind this?? Seems like RPM and feed rate
and chip removal are related.? Higher RPM allows for a faster feed rate. But also if the feed rate is too low relative to the RPM you get poor results.? For commercial cutters for the shaper you often get given the ideal RPM/Feed rate.?
?
I have not used my router inverted in a table since getting my Felder early 2010.? The router spindle with my machine was rated for 19,000 rpm continuously,
and for up to 23,000 RPM for short use with higher bearing wear.? I’ve tried small bits at 15,000, 19,000, and 23,000 RPM and not noticed any difference.
?
Could be that single speed routers all ran at a nominal 22,000-23,000 with no load and bigger bits were a problem with vibration.? So then when router
bits west big they made variable speed routers to slow them down for big bits and maybe that’s where “you need 22,000 RPM to run small bits” wisdom arose?
?
Also, ever notice how with a very light cut at 22K RPM with pitch is high and as soon as you load the router down the pitch lowers a lot? What RPM
is the motor actually running at under load?? With my 4kw shaper motor my 15K RPM spindle doesn’t slow at all.? I would not be surprised at all to see that under load routers slow down a lot.
?
So, does anyone have science or engineering on the Intrawebs wisdom that says 15,000 RPM is too slow?
?
?
?
From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
On Behalf Of Eric Janson
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2020 1:51 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111
?
This spindle works at 15,000 rpm, so for smaller- diameter router bits the cutting edge speed is kind of low. For larger bits and deeper cuts, it works great, having many HP behind it, and is as close to totally?vibration- free as you
are going to get. Changing spindles is not difficult, but changing back and forth is a pain, so my cast- iron router table is my go- to for that sort of work unless I feel I really need what the Felder spindle brings.
?
On Sun, Dec 27, 2020 at 7:05 AM imranindiana via <imranindiana=[email protected]> wrote:
Just sharing. I have no knowledge of this part.
Look at this on eBay
Imran
?
|
I have a 2004 CF731 combination machine and have made a router insert that I can drop into the shaper table hole when I need an actual router. It works well and fits my Porter Cable 891 2.25HP router.?
Jarrett
On Thu, Dec 31, 2020, 5:33 PM Bill Belanger < Bill@...> wrote: It does help Lucky. I bought the router table for my new shop because?I always had one. I bought the shaper on recommendation from my salesman?but he told me NOT to bother buying the router spindle, that it was quicker and easier to use a router table, but I got the spindle anyway. I'm just setting up and my?first opotunity?was to use the shaper for something too big for the router table, and watching this?thread (which it looks like I hijacked, oops, just realized and I apologize) looks like I might be able to use the F700Z all the time. I'd much rather do that, since I've always had issues with the router table with chatter etc. So I think my best bet is to force myself to use the shaper exclusively for 6 months?or so and see how it goes. Thanks again for your response.
Bill Bélanger
On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 4:24 PM David Luckensmeyer < dhluckens@...> wrote: Bill,? I’ve gone my entire professional career without a dedicated router table. When I really need one, I set up a piece of board on some Euro saw horses, and set up a temporary production run. Otherwise I use the shaper or a hand held router.?
I do plan on making a router table one day, but it will be a bench version that I can shove out of the way. I will never dedicate floor space to said table while I have a shaper ready to go.?
Of course, what you’re making is also a consideration. I have a genuine need for a router table about once every two months. If I needed one every week I’d disregard my comments above.?
You’ve brought up a good point we all wrestle with. Hope this helps you.? On 1 Jan 2021, at 8:49 am, Bill Belanger <Bill@...> wrote:
? Wondering how many of you who have a shaper, also have a router table? I have one of both, but I'm thinking in my little shop I could use the room? I'm just getting setup, so haven't really had the full use of the shop enough to see how badly I need both.
Thanks in advance Bill Bélanger
My most used router bit is a 1/8” round over. Most of the time it’s in the router spindle already.? It’s removing almost nothing but the cut is great.?
Used a 45 bevel router bit yesterday in the router spindle (never even looked at the RPM setting on the VFD) and it’s cutting diameter the way I used it was like 7/8”.? Just removing a small amount of stock.?
?
If anyone has any experiment ideas I would be happy to run some tests at 15,000 and 23,000 to see the difference using a power feeder.? Could but a
new bit and test at the two RPM settings and 2 or 3 feed rates.
?
?
Tip speed is most critical.? Feed speed can compensate for fast tip speed but not slow.? Number of flutes helps the cuts per inch but doesn't help when the tip speed slow other than potentially
having each flute take less cut.? My experience with the 15K limit on the Felder is that core box and cove bits give me the most problem as speed is slow and a fair amount of stock needs to be removed.? I run those bits at 23K but most others seem to work
at the 15K range.? Dave
Hi Joe,
?
I did not post because I did not think I good useable info but here it is anyways.
?
I choose b=100 because it has lines for the smallest cutter dia on all 4 plots. So I replotted b=100 lines from 4 diff graphs onto a single graph. Then I extrapolated for smaller spindle dia of 10mm & 20mm. Then extrapolated for cutter
dia less than 100mm. So now we have this:
?
<image001.png>
?
However, 4” (100mm) is not a realistic cutting edge for a router bit. I thought anymore extrapolation (which would move 10mm & 20mm curves in NE direction) would likely be not valid. If Felder provided more data (for smaller cutter dia)
for b=10 in their plots then it would be a more appropriate to repeat the above exercise.
?
Here is the data for above graph
<image002.jpg>
?
Imran
?
From: [email protected]
On Behalf Of Joe Jensen
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2020 11:13 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111
?
Number of flutes is important too.
?
?
would be interesting to put the data points from the 4 graphs to see if the relationship is linear. If so we can easily extrapolate if fir router use.
?
My machine has generic guide that is based upon recommended feed rate between 40 & 70m/s
lower feed rate than 40m/s can result in kickback and higher than 75m/s can cause damage to tooling not to mention excessive wear if the tool continues to run w/o damage.
There is a graph in the manual that further refined this with inclusion of cutter length b
I know this does not cover router spindle. Has anyone seen a graph like above from Felder for router spindle?
?
Not meant to be sarcastic…I read all the time that 15,000 is too slow for small bits.? Is there engineering behind this?? Seems like RPM and feed rate
and chip removal are related.? Higher RPM allows for a faster feed rate. But also if the feed rate is too low relative to the RPM you get poor results.? For commercial cutters for the shaper you often get given the ideal RPM/Feed rate.?
?
I have not used my router inverted in a table since getting my Felder early 2010.? The router spindle with my machine was rated for 19,000 rpm continuously,
and for up to 23,000 RPM for short use with higher bearing wear.? I’ve tried small bits at 15,000, 19,000, and 23,000 RPM and not noticed any difference.
?
Could be that single speed routers all ran at a nominal 22,000-23,000 with no load and bigger bits were a problem with vibration.? So then when router
bits west big they made variable speed routers to slow them down for big bits and maybe that’s where “you need 22,000 RPM to run small bits” wisdom arose?
?
Also, ever notice how with a very light cut at 22K RPM with pitch is high and as soon as you load the router down the pitch lowers a lot? What RPM
is the motor actually running at under load?? With my 4kw shaper motor my 15K RPM spindle doesn’t slow at all.? I would not be surprised at all to see that under load routers slow down a lot.
?
So, does anyone have science or engineering on the Intrawebs wisdom that says 15,000 RPM is too slow?
?
?
?
From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
On Behalf Of Eric Janson
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2020 1:51 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111
?
This spindle works at 15,000 rpm, so for smaller- diameter router bits the cutting edge speed is kind of low. For larger bits and deeper cuts, it works great, having many HP behind it, and is as close to totally?vibration- free as you
are going to get. Changing spindles is not difficult, but changing back and forth is a pain, so my cast- iron router table is my go- to for that sort of work unless I feel I really need what the Felder spindle brings.
?
On Sun, Dec 27, 2020 at 7:05 AM imranindiana via <imranindiana=[email protected]> wrote:
Just sharing. I have no knowledge of this part.
Look at this on eBay
Imran
?
|
I have the David Best kit for dropping a router into shaper opening like Jarret mentioned. It works exceptionally well with bits with bearings. I have however used a board for a fence as well, that was clamped to the table.
Imran
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Dec 31, 2020, at 6:46 PM, Jarrett Maxwell <j.a.max7@...> wrote: ? I have a 2004 CF731 combination machine and have made a router insert that I can drop into the shaper table hole when I need an actual router. It works well and fits my Porter Cable 891 2.25HP router.?
Jarrett On Thu, Dec 31, 2020, 5:33 PM Bill Belanger < Bill@...> wrote: It does help Lucky. I bought the router table for my new shop because?I always had one. I bought the shaper on recommendation from my salesman?but he told me NOT to bother buying the router spindle, that it was quicker and easier to use a router table, but I got the spindle anyway. I'm just setting up and my?first opotunity?was to use the shaper for something too big for the router table, and watching this?thread (which it looks like I hijacked, oops, just realized and I apologize) looks like I might be able to use the F700Z all the time. I'd much rather do that, since I've always had issues with the router table with chatter etc. So I think my best bet is to force myself to use the shaper exclusively for 6 months?or so and see how it goes. Thanks again for your response.
Bill Bélanger
On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 4:24 PM David Luckensmeyer < dhluckens@...> wrote: Bill,? I’ve gone my entire professional career without a dedicated router table. When I really need one, I set up a piece of board on some Euro saw horses, and set up a temporary production run. Otherwise I use the shaper or a hand held router.?
I do plan on making a router table one day, but it will be a bench version that I can shove out of the way. I will never dedicate floor space to said table while I have a shaper ready to go.?
Of course, what you’re making is also a consideration. I have a genuine need for a router table about once every two months. If I needed one every week I’d disregard my comments above.?
You’ve brought up a good point we all wrestle with. Hope this helps you.? On 1 Jan 2021, at 8:49 am, Bill Belanger <Bill@...> wrote:
? Wondering how many of you who have a shaper, also have a router table? I have one of both, but I'm thinking in my little shop I could use the room? I'm just getting setup, so haven't really had the full use of the shop enough to see how badly I need both.
Thanks in advance Bill Bélanger
My most used router bit is a 1/8” round over. Most of the time it’s in the router spindle already.? It’s removing almost nothing but the cut is great.?
Used a 45 bevel router bit yesterday in the router spindle (never even looked at the RPM setting on the VFD) and it’s cutting diameter the way I used it was like 7/8”.? Just removing a small amount of stock.?
?
If anyone has any experiment ideas I would be happy to run some tests at 15,000 and 23,000 to see the difference using a power feeder.? Could but a
new bit and test at the two RPM settings and 2 or 3 feed rates.
?
?
Tip speed is most critical.? Feed speed can compensate for fast tip speed but not slow.? Number of flutes helps the cuts per inch but doesn't help when the tip speed slow other than potentially
having each flute take less cut.? My experience with the 15K limit on the Felder is that core box and cove bits give me the most problem as speed is slow and a fair amount of stock needs to be removed.? I run those bits at 23K but most others seem to work
at the 15K range.? Dave
Hi Joe,
?
I did not post because I did not think I good useable info but here it is anyways.
?
I choose b=100 because it has lines for the smallest cutter dia on all 4 plots. So I replotted b=100 lines from 4 diff graphs onto a single graph. Then I extrapolated for smaller spindle dia of 10mm & 20mm. Then extrapolated for cutter
dia less than 100mm. So now we have this:
?
<image001.png>
?
However, 4” (100mm) is not a realistic cutting edge for a router bit. I thought anymore extrapolation (which would move 10mm & 20mm curves in NE direction) would likely be not valid. If Felder provided more data (for smaller cutter dia)
for b=10 in their plots then it would be a more appropriate to repeat the above exercise.
?
Here is the data for above graph
<image002.jpg>
?
Imran
?
From: [email protected]
On Behalf Of Joe Jensen
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2020 11:13 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111
?
Number of flutes is important too.
?
?
would be interesting to put the data points from the 4 graphs to see if the relationship is linear. If so we can easily extrapolate if fir router use.
?
My machine has generic guide that is based upon recommended feed rate between 40 & 70m/s
lower feed rate than 40m/s can result in kickback and higher than 75m/s can cause damage to tooling not to mention excessive wear if the tool continues to run w/o damage.
There is a graph in the manual that further refined this with inclusion of cutter length b
I know this does not cover router spindle. Has anyone seen a graph like above from Felder for router spindle?
?
Not meant to be sarcastic…I read all the time that 15,000 is too slow for small bits.? Is there engineering behind this?? Seems like RPM and feed rate
and chip removal are related.? Higher RPM allows for a faster feed rate. But also if the feed rate is too low relative to the RPM you get poor results.? For commercial cutters for the shaper you often get given the ideal RPM/Feed rate.?
?
I have not used my router inverted in a table since getting my Felder early 2010.? The router spindle with my machine was rated for 19,000 rpm continuously,
and for up to 23,000 RPM for short use with higher bearing wear.? I’ve tried small bits at 15,000, 19,000, and 23,000 RPM and not noticed any difference.
?
Could be that single speed routers all ran at a nominal 22,000-23,000 with no load and bigger bits were a problem with vibration.? So then when router
bits west big they made variable speed routers to slow them down for big bits and maybe that’s where “you need 22,000 RPM to run small bits” wisdom arose?
?
Also, ever notice how with a very light cut at 22K RPM with pitch is high and as soon as you load the router down the pitch lowers a lot? What RPM
is the motor actually running at under load?? With my 4kw shaper motor my 15K RPM spindle doesn’t slow at all.? I would not be surprised at all to see that under load routers slow down a lot.
?
So, does anyone have science or engineering on the Intrawebs wisdom that says 15,000 RPM is too slow?
?
?
?
From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
On Behalf Of Eric Janson
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2020 1:51 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111
?
This spindle works at 15,000 rpm, so for smaller- diameter router bits the cutting edge speed is kind of low. For larger bits and deeper cuts, it works great, having many HP behind it, and is as close to totally?vibration- free as you
are going to get. Changing spindles is not difficult, but changing back and forth is a pain, so my cast- iron router table is my go- to for that sort of work unless I feel I really need what the Felder spindle brings.
?
On Sun, Dec 27, 2020 at 7:05 AM imranindiana via <imranindiana=[email protected]> wrote:
Just sharing. I have no knowledge of this part.
Look at this on eBay
Imran
?
|
For precise height adjustment of the router bit, a router lift is needed.?
I had used Bosch MRF23EVS in the router table, it is a pain to adjust the height,?it?failed eventually. I replaced it with Porter Cable 7518 plus Incra router lift, night and day difference.
If I had the separate shaper, I would probably buy the router spindle and get rid of the router table.
James
On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 8:50 PM imranindiana via <imranindiana= [email protected]> wrote: I have the David Best kit for dropping a router into shaper opening like Jarret mentioned. It works exceptionally well with bits with bearings. I have however used a board for a fence as well, that was clamped to the table.
Imran On Dec 31, 2020, at 6:46 PM, Jarrett Maxwell < j.a.max7@...> wrote: ? I have a 2004 CF731 combination machine and have made a router insert that I can drop into the shaper table hole when I need an actual router. It works well and fits my Porter Cable 891 2.25HP router.?
Jarrett On Thu, Dec 31, 2020, 5:33 PM Bill Belanger < Bill@...> wrote: It does help Lucky. I bought the router table for my new shop because?I always had one. I bought the shaper on recommendation from my salesman?but he told me NOT to bother buying the router spindle, that it was quicker and easier to use a router table, but I got the spindle anyway. I'm just setting up and my?first opotunity?was to use the shaper for something too big for the router table, and watching this?thread (which it looks like I hijacked, oops, just realized and I apologize) looks like I might be able to use the F700Z all the time. I'd much rather do that, since I've always had issues with the router table with chatter etc. So I think my best bet is to force myself to use the shaper exclusively for 6 months?or so and see how it goes. Thanks again for your response.
Bill Bélanger
On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 4:24 PM David Luckensmeyer < dhluckens@...> wrote: Bill,? I’ve gone my entire professional career without a dedicated router table. When I really need one, I set up a piece of board on some Euro saw horses, and set up a temporary production run. Otherwise I use the shaper or a hand held router.?
I do plan on making a router table one day, but it will be a bench version that I can shove out of the way. I will never dedicate floor space to said table while I have a shaper ready to go.?
Of course, what you’re making is also a consideration. I have a genuine need for a router table about once every two months. If I needed one every week I’d disregard my comments above.?
You’ve brought up a good point we all wrestle with. Hope this helps you.? On 1 Jan 2021, at 8:49 am, Bill Belanger <Bill@...> wrote:
? Wondering how many of you who have a shaper, also have a router table? I have one of both, but I'm thinking in my little shop I could use the room? I'm just getting setup, so haven't really had the full use of the shop enough to see how badly I need both.
Thanks in advance Bill Bélanger
My most used router bit is a 1/8” round over. Most of the time it’s in the router spindle already.? It’s removing almost nothing but the cut is great.?
Used a 45 bevel router bit yesterday in the router spindle (never even looked at the RPM setting on the VFD) and it’s cutting diameter the way I used it was like 7/8”.? Just removing a small amount of stock.?
?
If anyone has any experiment ideas I would be happy to run some tests at 15,000 and 23,000 to see the difference using a power feeder.? Could but a
new bit and test at the two RPM settings and 2 or 3 feed rates.
?
?
Tip speed is most critical.? Feed speed can compensate for fast tip speed but not slow.? Number of flutes helps the cuts per inch but doesn't help when the tip speed slow other than potentially
having each flute take less cut.? My experience with the 15K limit on the Felder is that core box and cove bits give me the most problem as speed is slow and a fair amount of stock needs to be removed.? I run those bits at 23K but most others seem to work
at the 15K range.? Dave
Hi Joe,
?
I did not post because I did not think I good useable info but here it is anyways.
?
I choose b=100 because it has lines for the smallest cutter dia on all 4 plots. So I replotted b=100 lines from 4 diff graphs onto a single graph. Then I extrapolated for smaller spindle dia of 10mm & 20mm. Then extrapolated for cutter
dia less than 100mm. So now we have this:
?
<image001.png>
?
However, 4” (100mm) is not a realistic cutting edge for a router bit. I thought anymore extrapolation (which would move 10mm & 20mm curves in NE direction) would likely be not valid. If Felder provided more data (for smaller cutter dia)
for b=10 in their plots then it would be a more appropriate to repeat the above exercise.
?
Here is the data for above graph
<image002.jpg>
?
Imran
?
From: [email protected]
On Behalf Of Joe Jensen
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2020 11:13 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111
?
Number of flutes is important too.
?
?
would be interesting to put the data points from the 4 graphs to see if the relationship is linear. If so we can easily extrapolate if fir router use.
?
My machine has generic guide that is based upon recommended feed rate between 40 & 70m/s
lower feed rate than 40m/s can result in kickback and higher than 75m/s can cause damage to tooling not to mention excessive wear if the tool continues to run w/o damage.
There is a graph in the manual that further refined this with inclusion of cutter length b
I know this does not cover router spindle. Has anyone seen a graph like above from Felder for router spindle?
?
Not meant to be sarcastic…I read all the time that 15,000 is too slow for small bits.? Is there engineering behind this?? Seems like RPM and feed rate
and chip removal are related.? Higher RPM allows for a faster feed rate. But also if the feed rate is too low relative to the RPM you get poor results.? For commercial cutters for the shaper you often get given the ideal RPM/Feed rate.?
?
I have not used my router inverted in a table since getting my Felder early 2010.? The router spindle with my machine was rated for 19,000 rpm continuously,
and for up to 23,000 RPM for short use with higher bearing wear.? I’ve tried small bits at 15,000, 19,000, and 23,000 RPM and not noticed any difference.
?
Could be that single speed routers all ran at a nominal 22,000-23,000 with no load and bigger bits were a problem with vibration.? So then when router
bits west big they made variable speed routers to slow them down for big bits and maybe that’s where “you need 22,000 RPM to run small bits” wisdom arose?
?
Also, ever notice how with a very light cut at 22K RPM with pitch is high and as soon as you load the router down the pitch lowers a lot? What RPM
is the motor actually running at under load?? With my 4kw shaper motor my 15K RPM spindle doesn’t slow at all.? I would not be surprised at all to see that under load routers slow down a lot.
?
So, does anyone have science or engineering on the Intrawebs wisdom that says 15,000 RPM is too slow?
?
?
?
From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
On Behalf Of Eric Janson
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2020 1:51 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111
?
This spindle works at 15,000 rpm, so for smaller- diameter router bits the cutting edge speed is kind of low. For larger bits and deeper cuts, it works great, having many HP behind it, and is as close to totally?vibration- free as you
are going to get. Changing spindles is not difficult, but changing back and forth is a pain, so my cast- iron router table is my go- to for that sort of work unless I feel I really need what the Felder spindle brings.
?
On Sun, Dec 27, 2020 at 7:05 AM imranindiana via <imranindiana=[email protected]> wrote:
Just sharing. I have no knowledge of this part.
Look at this on eBay
Imran
?
|
I cant measure the spindle speed, but I can verify that on my 700Z with vfd, all my router bits run great. Cutters from a 1/8" round over to 1 12" or more. This makes for a versatile machine when you consider a 1/8" round over to a pair of 220 mm rebate heads employed for tenoning.
|
All:
When I bought my KF 700, I sold my Incra/Porter Cable router table to save space and also to force myself to use the shaper with the router spindle.
My experience verifies the Joe Jensen question, even with the slower speed --the solidity and power of the Felder has worked well every time I have used same. ?Having said that, I have often thought that a dedicated router table would be a useful re-addition. ?In the process of moving my shop, I am considering one—the cost is certainly higher than before, I think I costed out my product choices at almost $2K.
Happy New Year to all.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Dec 31, 2020, at 5:37 PM, robert andre < ehf222@...> wrote:
I cant measure the spindle speed, but I can verify that on my 700Z with vfd, all my router bits run great. Cutters from a 1/8" round over to 1 12" or more. This makes for a versatile machine when you consider a 1/8" round over to a pair of 220 mm rebate heads employed for tenoning.
|
I never had a “proper” router table and always had a shaper. ??My “router table” was a router plate that dropped in a hole in a bench and the fence
was clamped in place and adjusted with light taps ?
?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: [email protected] < [email protected]>
On Behalf Of Bill Belanger
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2020 3:49 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111
?
Wondering how many of you who have a shaper, also have a router table?
I have one of both, but I'm thinking in my little shop I could use the room?
I'm just getting setup, so haven't really had the full use of the shop enough to see how badly I need both.
?
My most used router bit is a 1/8” round over. Most of the time it’s in the router spindle
already.? It’s removing almost nothing but the cut is great.? Used a 45 bevel router bit yesterday in the router spindle (never even looked at the RPM setting on the VFD) and it’s cutting diameter the way I used it was like 7/8”.? Just removing a small amount
of stock.?
?
If anyone has any experiment ideas I would be happy to run some tests at 15,000 and 23,000
to see the difference using a power feeder.? Could but a new bit and test at the two RPM settings and 2 or 3 feed rates.
?
?
Tip speed is most critical.? Feed speed can compensate for fast tip speed but not slow.? Number of flutes helps the cuts per inch but
doesn't help when the tip speed slow other than potentially having each flute take less cut.? My experience with the 15K limit on the Felder is that core box and cove bits give me the most problem as speed is slow and a fair amount of stock needs to be removed.?
I run those bits at 23K but most others seem to work at the 15K range.? Dave
Hi Joe,
?
I did not post because I did not think I good useable info but here it is anyways.
?
I choose b=100 because it has lines for the smallest cutter dia on all 4 plots. So I replotted b=100 lines from 4 diff graphs onto a single graph. Then I extrapolated for smaller spindle dia of 10mm & 20mm. Then
extrapolated for cutter dia less than 100mm. So now we have this:
?
?
However, 4” (100mm) is not a realistic cutting edge for a router bit. I thought anymore extrapolation (which would move 10mm & 20mm curves in NE direction) would likely be not valid. If Felder provided more data
(for smaller cutter dia) for b=10 in their plots then it would be a more appropriate to repeat the above exercise.
?
Here is the data for above graph
?
Imran
?
From:
[email protected] On Behalf Of Joe Jensen
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2020 11:13 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111
?
Number of flutes is important too.
?
?
would be interesting to put the data points from the 4 graphs to see if the relationship is linear. If so we can easily extrapolate if fir router use.
?
My machine has generic guide that is based upon recommended feed rate between 40 & 70m/s
lower feed rate than 40m/s can result in kickback and higher than 75m/s can cause damage to tooling not to mention excessive wear if the tool continues to run w/o damage.
There is a graph in the manual that further refined this with inclusion of cutter length b
I know this does not cover router spindle. Has anyone seen a graph like above from Felder for router spindle?
?
Not meant to be sarcastic…I read all the time that 15,000 is too slow for small bits.? Is there engineering behind this??
Seems like RPM and feed rate and chip removal are related.? Higher RPM allows for a faster feed rate. But also if the feed rate is too low relative to the RPM you get poor results.? For commercial cutters for the shaper you often get given the ideal RPM/Feed
rate.?
?
I have not used my router inverted in a table since getting my Felder early 2010.? The router spindle with my machine was
rated for 19,000 rpm continuously, and for up to 23,000 RPM for short use with higher bearing wear.? I’ve tried small bits at 15,000, 19,000, and 23,000 RPM and not noticed any difference.
?
Could be that single speed routers all ran at a nominal 22,000-23,000 with no load and bigger bits were a problem with vibration.?
So then when router bits west big they made variable speed routers to slow them down for big bits and maybe that’s where “you need 22,000 RPM to run small bits” wisdom arose?
?
Also, ever notice how with a very light cut at 22K RPM with pitch is high and as soon as you load the router down the pitch
lowers a lot? What RPM is the motor actually running at under load?? With my 4kw shaper motor my 15K RPM spindle doesn’t slow at all.? I would not be surprised at all to see that under load routers slow down a lot.
?
So, does anyone have science or engineering on the Intrawebs wisdom that says 15,000 RPM is too slow?
?
?
?
From:
[email protected] <[email protected]>
On Behalf Of Eric Janson
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2020 1:51 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111
?
This spindle works at 15,000 rpm, so for smaller- diameter router bits the cutting edge speed is kind of low. For larger bits and deeper cuts, it works great, having many HP behind it, and is as close to totally?vibration-
free as you are going to get. Changing spindles is not difficult, but changing back and forth is a pain, so my cast- iron router table is my go- to for that sort of work unless I feel I really need what the Felder spindle brings.
?
On Sun, Dec 27, 2020 at 7:05 AM imranindiana via
<imranindiana=[email protected]> wrote:
Just sharing. I have no knowledge of this part.
Look at this on eBay
Imran
?
|
Bill, maybe you can do a test with a ? bit in the KF700 and the router table to see what difference it makes.
?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: [email protected] < [email protected]>
On Behalf Of Bill Belanger
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2020 4:33 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111
?
It does help Lucky. I bought the router table for my new shop because?I always had one. I bought the shaper on recommendation from my salesman?but he told me NOT to bother buying the router spindle, that it was quicker and easier to use
a router table, but I got the spindle anyway. I'm just setting up and my?first opotunity?was to use the shaper for something too big for the router table, and watching this?thread (which it looks like I hijacked, oops, just realized and I apologize) looks
like I might be able to use the F700Z all the time. I'd much rather do that, since I've always had issues with the router table with chatter etc. So I think my best bet is to force myself to use the shaper exclusively for 6 months?or so and see how it goes.
Thanks again for your response.
?
On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 4:24 PM David Luckensmeyer <dhluckens@...> wrote:
Bill,?
I’ve gone my entire professional career without a dedicated router table. When I really need one, I set up a piece of board on some Euro saw horses, and set up a temporary production run. Otherwise I use the shaper or a hand held router.?
I do plan on making a router table one day, but it will be a bench version that I can shove out of the way. I will never dedicate floor space to said table while I have a shaper ready to go.?
Of course, what you’re making is also a consideration. I have a genuine need for a router table about once every two months. If I needed one every week I’d disregard my comments above.?
You’ve brought up a good point we all wrestle with. Hope this helps you.?
On 1 Jan 2021, at 8:49 am, Bill Belanger <Bill@...> wrote:
?
Wondering how many of you who have a shaper, also have a router table?
I have one of both, but I'm thinking in my little shop I could use the room?
I'm just getting setup, so haven't really had the full use of the shop enough to see how badly I need both.
?
My most used router bit is a 1/8” round over. Most of the time it’s in the router spindle
already.? It’s removing almost nothing but the cut is great.? Used a 45 bevel router bit yesterday in the router spindle (never even looked at the RPM setting on the VFD) and it’s cutting diameter the way I used it was like 7/8”.? Just removing a small amount
of stock.?
?
If anyone has any experiment ideas I would be happy to run some tests at 15,000 and 23,000
to see the difference using a power feeder.? Could but a new bit and test at the two RPM settings and 2 or 3 feed rates.
?
?
Tip speed is most critical.? Feed speed can compensate for fast tip speed but not slow.? Number of flutes helps the cuts per inch but
doesn't help when the tip speed slow other than potentially having each flute take less cut.? My experience with the 15K limit on the Felder is that core box and cove bits give me the most problem as speed is slow and a fair amount of stock needs to be removed.?
I run those bits at 23K but most others seem to work at the 15K range.? Dave
Hi Joe,
?
I did not post because I did not think I good useable info but here it is anyways.
?
I choose b=100 because it has lines for the smallest cutter dia on all 4 plots. So I replotted b=100 lines from 4 diff graphs onto a single graph. Then I extrapolated for smaller spindle dia of 10mm & 20mm. Then extrapolated for cutter dia less than 100mm.
So now we have this:
?
?
However, 4” (100mm) is not a realistic cutting edge for a router bit. I thought anymore extrapolation (which would move 10mm & 20mm curves in NE direction) would likely be not valid. If Felder provided more data (for smaller cutter dia) for b=10 in their
plots then it would be a more appropriate to repeat the above exercise.
?
Here is the data for above graph
?
Imran
?
From: [email protected]
On Behalf Of Joe Jensen
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2020 11:13 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111
?
Number of flutes is important too.
?
?
would be interesting to put the data points from the 4 graphs to see if the relationship is linear. If so we can easily extrapolate if fir router use.
?
My machine has generic guide that is based upon recommended feed rate between 40 & 70m/s
lower feed rate than 40m/s can result in kickback and higher than 75m/s can cause damage to tooling not to mention excessive wear if the tool continues to run w/o damage.
There is a graph in the manual that further refined this with inclusion of cutter length b
I know this does not cover router spindle. Has anyone seen a graph like above from Felder for router spindle?
?
Not meant to be sarcastic…I read all the time that 15,000 is too slow for small bits.? Is there engineering behind this?? Seems like RPM and feed rate and chip removal
are related.? Higher RPM allows for a faster feed rate. But also if the feed rate is too low relative to the RPM you get poor results.? For commercial cutters for the shaper you often get given the ideal RPM/Feed rate.?
?
I have not used my router inverted in a table since getting my Felder early 2010.? The router spindle with my machine was rated for 19,000 rpm continuously, and for up
to 23,000 RPM for short use with higher bearing wear.? I’ve tried small bits at 15,000, 19,000, and 23,000 RPM and not noticed any difference.
?
Could be that single speed routers all ran at a nominal 22,000-23,000 with no load and bigger bits were a problem with vibration.? So then when router bits west big they
made variable speed routers to slow them down for big bits and maybe that’s where “you need 22,000 RPM to run small bits” wisdom arose?
?
Also, ever notice how with a very light cut at 22K RPM with pitch is high and as soon as you load the router down the pitch lowers a lot? What RPM is the motor actually
running at under load?? With my 4kw shaper motor my 15K RPM spindle doesn’t slow at all.? I would not be surprised at all to see that under load routers slow down a lot.
?
So, does anyone have science or engineering on the Intrawebs wisdom that says 15,000 RPM is too slow?
?
?
?
From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
On Behalf Of Eric Janson
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2020 1:51 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111
?
This spindle works at 15,000 rpm, so for smaller- diameter router bits the cutting edge speed is kind of low. For larger bits and deeper cuts, it works great, having many HP behind it, and is as close to totally?vibration- free as you are going to get. Changing
spindles is not difficult, but changing back and forth is a pain, so my cast- iron router table is my go- to for that sort of work unless I feel I really need what the Felder spindle brings.
?
On Sun, Dec 27, 2020 at 7:05 AM imranindiana via <imranindiana=[email protected]> wrote:
Just sharing. I have no knowledge of this part.
Look at this on eBay
Imran
?
|
Bill, I have a router table and I recently bought the high speed spindle for my KF700. I have a really small work shop. Initially I put my router table out for sale. When I got a buyer on it I got cold feet. I told the buyer it was not for sale anymore. I have put too many building hours into that table, I didn't have heart to sell it. It's now stashed away due to lack of space, but I do miss two features from it. Both of which I will probably implement on the KF700:
1. Incra fence
2. Incra magna lock
My router table is home built with a Festool OF 2200 permanently mounted. I have never had any viration issues or lack of power. But the KF700 is really smooht, even at the lower speed (15k).
If I would have space for it I would definitely use the router table. The setup time is faster for small jobs.
|
I have it for my F-3 and I can only use the larger router bits. I wish they made a 3/4 spindle for the machine because there is a lot of tooling and it is cheaper. I should have not spent the money for the router spindle and had a custom made 3/4 in a machine shop. I still use my Incra router table and fence all the time.
|
I have a 3/4 inch spindle that Felder made for me years ago as a part of my Kf700 pro. ? I never really used it since the knives just do not cut like the newer shaper knives. ?There is a reason they are cheaper. ? Philip Davidson?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Jan 13, 2021, at 2:13 PM, chris swartzwelder <nm3m198@...> wrote:
?I have it for my F-3 and I can only use the larger router bits. I wish they made a 3/4 spindle for the machine because there is a lot of tooling and it is cheaper. I should have not spent the money for the router spindle and had a custom made 3/4 in a machine shop. I still use my Incra router table and fence all the time.
--
Philip
davidsonukuleles.com
|
David Luckensmeyer
Bill Belanger
imran
Joe Jensen