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160 mm dust collection ducting in the USA
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Hi all,
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I'm researching dust collection options for my shop, and several of my top choices for collector have a 160 mm inlet.? In the beginning, I assumed that I'd just drop that down to 6" ducting with an adapter.? But, my shop is at 6360' altitude, which effectively increases the static pressure in the ducting by a factor of ~1.27.? As it happens, 160mm ducting has about 78% of the static pressure per foot of 6" ducting, so 160mm duct work will give me almost the same static pressure as 6" ducts at sea level.? So, I'm thinking of buying 160mm ducting, but that seems to be a bit hard to come by in the USA.? I haven't yet started making phone calls, but all the normal duct suppliers people mention list only imperial measurement ducts on their websites, and no metric.? Has anyone here sourced metric ducting in the USA?? My preference is ducting with quick connect clamps.? If I can't find a good source of 160mm ducting, I may size up to 7".? My local Felder rep has confirmed that they do not sell 160mm ducting, just 160mm flex hose.? A search for "160mm" in the forum doesn't seem turn up any mention of 160mm ducting in the USA.
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-Michael Wolf
Tahoe City, CA
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Hey Michael,
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I just installed a DC system and sourced all of my quick connect ducting from the Blast Gate Co. () in Michigan.? They are incredibly well priced vs. others and were able to make custom reducers from imperial to metric and also carried metric hose to make connections to my machines (AD741, FB510, K700S, F700Z, HS950) easy.?
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Regarding your inlet being 160mm, Blast Gate can make a custom fitting/machine adaptor for this and then make recommendations on using their imperial QC ducting with metric reducers as I mentioned.?
?
I would suggest you tell them how high ;) you are along with the specs of your DC and machines and they can draw up plans (at no cost btw).
?
Kamal Patel
?
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To add to conversation, might make more financial sense in USA to buy 7" (not common in my experience) or 8" than to spec a special metric order. The static head will be even greater at 7" or 8", however line velocity for carrying the load should not be ignored. My main system has 8" mains, 6" branches, and reduces at the tools to metric or otherwise FWIW, BUT, I have to have 2 branches open minimum at all times to keep enough velocity to flush.
Hey Michael,
?
I just installed a DC system and sourced all of my quick connect ducting from the Blast Gate Co. () in Michigan.? They are incredibly well priced vs. others and were able to make custom reducers from imperial to metric and also carried metric hose to make connections to my machines (AD741, FB510, K700S, F700Z, HS950) easy.?
?
Regarding your inlet being 160mm, Blast Gate can make a custom fitting/machine adaptor for this and then make recommendations on using their imperial QC ducting with metric reducers as I mentioned.?
?
I would suggest you tell them how high ;) you are along with the specs of your DC and machines and they can draw up plans (at no cost btw).
?
Kamal Patel
?
-- Brett Wissel Saint Louis Restoration 1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd) St Louis, MO 63110 314.772.2167 brett@...
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Correction - "static head will be even greater at 7" or 8"" should read "static head reductions will be even greater at 7" or 8"" .?
On Wed, Dec 18, 2024 at 12:08?PM Brett Wissel via <Brettwissel= [email protected]> wrote: To add to conversation, might make more financial sense in USA to buy 7" (not common in my experience) or 8" than to spec a special metric order. The static head will be even greater at 7" or 8", however line velocity for carrying the load should not be ignored. My main system has 8" mains, 6" branches, and reduces at the tools to metric or otherwise FWIW, BUT, I have to have 2 branches open minimum at all times to keep enough velocity to flush.
Hey Michael,
?
I just installed a DC system and sourced all of my quick connect ducting from the Blast Gate Co. () in Michigan.? They are incredibly well priced vs. others and were able to make custom reducers from imperial to metric and also carried metric hose to make connections to my machines (AD741, FB510, K700S, F700Z, HS950) easy.?
?
Regarding your inlet being 160mm, Blast Gate can make a custom fitting/machine adaptor for this and then make recommendations on using their imperial QC ducting with metric reducers as I mentioned.?
?
I would suggest you tell them how high ;) you are along with the specs of your DC and machines and they can draw up plans (at no cost btw).
?
Kamal Patel
?
--
Brett Wissel Saint Louis Restoration 1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd) St Louis, MO 63110 314.772.2167 brett@...
-- Brett Wissel Saint Louis Restoration 1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd) St Louis, MO 63110 314.772.2167 brett@...
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I agree with Brett¡¯s suggestion on this. ?You¡¯re better off sticking with imperial-sized rigid pipe to and including the blast gates, and necking down to metric at each machine where flex hose is involved. ?I have an RL-160 with a single 6¡± Nordfab pipe running though the shop, branching off to imperial-sized pipes and blast gates as you can see in the attached. ?Those branches in turn have blast gates, then a fitting to convert to metric for the flex-hose connections to the machine. ?
You didn¡¯t identify the extractor you are using, but if it¡¯s a Felder RL-series on 3-phase, the extractor impeller is running 20 percent faster than the design target due to the difference in 50 versus 60 hertz. ?Have you factored that into your thinking?
David Best
DBestWorkshop@...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/collections/
https://www.youtube.com/@David_Best
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On Dec 18, 2024, at 10:13?AM, Brett Wissel via groups.io <Brettwissel@...> wrote:
Correction - "static head will be even greater at 7" or 8"" should read "static head reductions will be even greater at 7" or 8"" .? On Wed, Dec 18, 2024 at 12:08?PM Brett Wissel via <Brettwissel= [email protected]> wrote: To add to conversation, might make more financial sense in USA to buy 7" (not common in my experience) or 8" than to spec a special metric order. The static head will be even greater at 7" or 8", however line velocity for carrying the load should not be ignored. My main system has 8" mains, 6" branches, and reduces at the tools to metric or otherwise FWIW, BUT, I have to have 2 branches open minimum at all times to keep enough velocity to flush.
Hey Michael,
?
I just installed a DC system and sourced all of my quick connect ducting from the Blast Gate Co. () in Michigan.? They are incredibly well priced vs. others and were able to make custom reducers from imperial to metric and also carried metric hose to make connections to my machines (AD741, FB510, K700S, F700Z, HS950) easy.?
?
Regarding your inlet being 160mm, Blast Gate can make a custom fitting/machine adaptor for this and then make recommendations on using their imperial QC ducting with metric reducers as I mentioned.?
?
I would suggest you tell them how high ;) you are along with the specs of your DC and machines and they can draw up plans (at no cost btw).
?
Kamal Patel
?
--
Brett Wissel Saint Louis Restoration 1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd) St Louis, MO 63110 314.772.2167 brett@...
-- Brett Wissel Saint Louis Restoration 1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd) St Louis, MO 63110 314.772.2167 brett@...
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I'm also going to suggest going with 7" ducting. I couldn't afford to spend the money on the quick connect stuff, but find the spiral wound duct to be not only very resonably priced, but super easy to put up. When i changed all the ductwork to use an RL200, i went with 8" spiral wound main runs eventually reducing to 6 and 5". In all i had 50' of 8", 30' of 6" the same of 5" plus all the wye's etc. Everything is screwed together with self tapping screws and the joints are also taped. It took me roughly 6 to 8 hours to do by myself and I am very happy with the performance of the whole system.?
Regards,
Bryce
--
https://www.brycecomerwoodworks.com/
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHdrRaAZd_pOa7wwbdNPUEw
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Sounds like no one is using metric sized main ducts, which is sort of what I expected to hear.? I'm a little concerned about going from a 160mm inlet to a 7" duct (~175mm), as I don't know how to estimate what the impact of the constriction at the collector would be.? But perhaps that just means I should pay a professional company to do the math for me.? Going from a 160mm inlet to a 6" main duct is easier to wrap my head around, but the increase in static pressure, combined with my altitude, is a bit problematic.
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I definitely don't want to run 8" main ducting, as I'm a one man operation, and all of my tools will constrict airflow enough that I wouldn't be able to maintain the right velocity in the main 8" duct without having extra gates open.
?
You didn¡¯t identify the extractor you are using, but if it¡¯s a Felder RL-series on 3-phase, the extractor impeller is running 20 percent faster than the design target due to the difference in 50 versus 60 hertz. ?Have you factored that into your thinking?
?
I did get a fan-curve for the RL-160 from Fergus Cooke at Felder Sacramento, but I guess I need to double check as to whether that's for 50 Hz or 60 Hz power.? I haven't yet settled on a specific collector.? I'm biased towards a euro-style negative pressure unit, and I'm looking at Felder, Al-Ko, Spaenex, and Hocker Polytechnic units.? Unfortunately, none of them sell high pressure dust collectors until you get into physically larger units than I need for my shop, so I may have to fall back to a American cyclone unit.? The Oneida folks sell a 5HP high vacuum SMART Boost system that is rated for 1000 CFM at ~18" WC, which would more than meet my needs.? The price is attractive compared to the Europeans, but the downside is a much higher noise level.? I'm pretty noise sensitive, so going that route will probably force me to think about building a containment closet for the collector, and baffled or duct silencers for the exhaust.
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-Michael Wolf
Tahoe City, CA
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Hi Michael,
Calculations for dust collector setup are not that complicated. Here is one place I looked at 20 yrs ago and they still have the info:
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On Dec 21, 2024, at 8:25?PM, Michael Wolf via groups.io <missingeggacct@...> wrote:
?
[Edited Message Follows]
Sounds like no one is using metric sized main ducts, which is sort of what I expected to hear.? I'm a little concerned about going from a 160mm inlet to a 7" duct (~175mm), as I don't know how to estimate what the impact of the constriction at the collector would be.? But perhaps that just means I should pay a professional company to do the math for me.? Going from a 160mm inlet to a 6" main duct is easier to wrap my head around, but the increase in static pressure, combined with my altitude, is a bit problematic.
?
I definitely don't want to run 8" main ducting, as I'm a one man operation, and all of my tools will constrict airflow enough that I wouldn't be able to maintain the right velocity in the main 8" duct without having extra gates open.
?
You didn¡¯t identify the extractor you are using, but if it¡¯s a Felder RL-series on 3-phase, the extractor impeller is running 20 percent faster than the design target due to the difference in 50 versus 60 hertz. ?Have you factored that into your thinking?
?
I did get a fan-curve for the RL-160 from Fergus Cooke at Felder Sacramento, but I guess I need to double check as to whether that's for 50 Hz or 60 Hz power.? I haven't yet settled on a specific collector.? I'm biased towards a euro-style negative pressure unit, and I'm looking at Felder, Al-Ko, Spaenex, and Hocker Polytechnic units.? Unfortunately, none of them sell high pressure dust collectors until you get into physically larger units than I need for my shop, so I may have to fall back to a American cyclone unit.? The Oneida folks sell a 5HP high vacuum SMART Boost system that is rated for 1000 CFM at ~18" WC, which would more than meet my needs.? The price is attractive compared to the Europeans, but the downside is a much higher noise level.? I'm pretty noise sensitive, so going that route will probably force me to think about building a containment closet for the collector, and baffled or duct silencers for the exhaust.
?
-Michael Wolf
Tahoe City, CA
If you wanna make it very economical by tap on branches? They attach to the ?main screw it on or pop rivet. Designing and building for 50 years
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On Dec 21, 2024, at 8:10?PM, imranindiana via groups.io <imranindiana@...> wrote:
? Hi Michael,
Calculations for dust collector setup are not that complicated. Here is one place I looked at 20 yrs ago and they still have the info:
| |
On Dec 21, 2024, at 8:25?PM, Michael Wolf via groups.io <missingeggacct@...> wrote:
?
[Edited Message Follows]
Sounds like no one is using metric sized main ducts, which is sort of what I expected to hear.? I'm a little concerned about going from a 160mm inlet to a 7" duct (~175mm), as I don't know how to estimate what the impact of the constriction at the collector would be.? But perhaps that just means I should pay a professional company to do the math for me.? Going from a 160mm inlet to a 6" main duct is easier to wrap my head around, but the increase in static pressure, combined with my altitude, is a bit problematic.
?
I definitely don't want to run 8" main ducting, as I'm a one man operation, and all of my tools will constrict airflow enough that I wouldn't be able to maintain the right velocity in the main 8" duct without having extra gates open.
?
You didn¡¯t identify the extractor you are using, but if it¡¯s a Felder RL-series on 3-phase, the extractor impeller is running 20 percent faster than the design target due to the difference in 50 versus 60 hertz. ?Have you factored that into your thinking?
?
I did get a fan-curve for the RL-160 from Fergus Cooke at Felder Sacramento, but I guess I need to double check as to whether that's for 50 Hz or 60 Hz power.? I haven't yet settled on a specific collector.? I'm biased towards a euro-style negative pressure unit, and I'm looking at Felder, Al-Ko, Spaenex, and Hocker Polytechnic units.? Unfortunately, none of them sell high pressure dust collectors until you get into physically larger units than I need for my shop, so I may have to fall back to a American cyclone unit.? The Oneida folks sell a 5HP high vacuum SMART Boost system that is rated for 1000 CFM at ~18" WC, which would more than meet my needs.? The price is attractive compared to the Europeans, but the downside is a much higher noise level.? I'm pretty noise sensitive, so going that route will probably force me to think about building a containment closet for the collector, and baffled or duct silencers for the exhaust.
?
-Michael Wolf
Tahoe City, CA
 Designing and building for 50 years
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Show quoted text
On Dec 21, 2024, at 9:46?PM, mac campshure via groups.io <mac512002@...> wrote:
? If you wanna make it very economical by tap on branches? They attach to the ?main screw it on or pop rivet. Designing and building for 50 years On Dec 21, 2024, at 8:10?PM, imranindiana via groups.io <imranindiana@...> wrote:
? Hi Michael,
Calculations for dust collector setup are not that complicated. Here is one place I looked at 20 yrs ago and they still have the info:
| |
On Dec 21, 2024, at 8:25?PM, Michael Wolf via groups.io <missingeggacct@...> wrote:
?
[Edited Message Follows]
Sounds like no one is using metric sized main ducts, which is sort of what I expected to hear.? I'm a little concerned about going from a 160mm inlet to a 7" duct (~175mm), as I don't know how to estimate what the impact of the constriction at the collector would be.? But perhaps that just means I should pay a professional company to do the math for me.? Going from a 160mm inlet to a 6" main duct is easier to wrap my head around, but the increase in static pressure, combined with my altitude, is a bit problematic.
?
I definitely don't want to run 8" main ducting, as I'm a one man operation, and all of my tools will constrict airflow enough that I wouldn't be able to maintain the right velocity in the main 8" duct without having extra gates open.
?
You didn¡¯t identify the extractor you are using, but if it¡¯s a Felder RL-series on 3-phase, the extractor impeller is running 20 percent faster than the design target due to the difference in 50 versus 60 hertz. ?Have you factored that into your thinking?
?
I did get a fan-curve for the RL-160 from Fergus Cooke at Felder Sacramento, but I guess I need to double check as to whether that's for 50 Hz or 60 Hz power.? I haven't yet settled on a specific collector.? I'm biased towards a euro-style negative pressure unit, and I'm looking at Felder, Al-Ko, Spaenex, and Hocker Polytechnic units.? Unfortunately, none of them sell high pressure dust collectors until you get into physically larger units than I need for my shop, so I may have to fall back to a American cyclone unit.? The Oneida folks sell a 5HP high vacuum SMART Boost system that is rated for 1000 CFM at ~18" WC, which would more than meet my needs.? The price is attractive compared to the Europeans, but the downside is a much higher noise level.? I'm pretty noise sensitive, so going that route will probably force me to think about building a containment closet for the collector, and baffled or duct silencers for the exhaust.
?
-Michael Wolf
Tahoe City, CA
On Sat, Dec 21, 2024 at 06:10 PM, imranindiana wrote:
Hi Michael,
?
Calculations for dust collector setup are not that complicated. Here is one place I looked at 20 yrs ago and they still have the info:
?
?
?
I'm fairly comfortable making the calculations.? But I don't know of a resource to guestimate the static pressure impact of reducing the ductwork diameter as you enter the collector.? I know of a few resources for ductwork fitting equivalent lengths, but everyone seems to assume that you're sucking air from the narrow side to the wide side, not the reverse.? My guess is that the static pressure impact of reducing the diameter is pretty high, depending only slightly on how quickly the transition is made.
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-Michael Wolf
Tahoe City, CA
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Michael,
That is a fair point. I could have ventured an answer 20 yrs ago when I was researching but my memory is terrible and don¡¯t recall much of it at this time ?
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On Dec 22, 2024, at 2:24?AM, Michael Wolf via groups.io <missingeggacct@...> wrote: ? On Sat, Dec 21, 2024 at 06:10 PM, imranindiana wrote:
Hi Michael,
?
Calculations for dust collector setup are not that complicated. Here is one place I looked at 20 yrs ago and they still have the info:
?
?
?
I'm fairly comfortable making the calculations.? But I don't know of a resource to guestimate the static pressure impact of reducing the ductwork diameter as you enter the collector.? I know of a few resources for ductwork fitting equivalent lengths, but everyone seems to assume that you're sucking air from the narrow side to the wide side, not the reverse.? My guess is that the static pressure impact of reducing the diameter is pretty high, depending only slightly on how quickly the transition is made.
?
-Michael Wolf
Tahoe City, CA
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Your 160mm is 6.3" and if you went 7" it's only .700 bigger. Open the inlet sheet metal of the dust collector to match your pipe. Then you don't have any restriction to worry about... that's if your collector is set up for 160mm, you said you haven't decided what collector you are using, you might end up with something closer to 200mm, or at least larger than 7".
Brian Lamb blamb11@... lambtoolworks.com
On Sunday, December 22, 2024 at 12:24:30 AM MST, Michael Wolf via groups.io <missingeggacct@...> wrote:
On Sat, Dec 21, 2024 at 06:10 PM, imranindiana wrote:
Hi Michael,
?
Calculations for dust collector setup are not that complicated. Here is one place I looked at 20 yrs ago and they still have the info:
?
?
?
I'm fairly comfortable making the calculations.? But I don't know of a resource to guestimate the static pressure impact of reducing the ductwork diameter as you enter the collector.? I know of a few resources for ductwork fitting equivalent lengths, but everyone seems to assume that you're sucking air from the narrow side to the wide side, not the reverse.? My guess is that the static pressure impact of reducing the diameter is pretty high, depending only slightly on how quickly the transition is made.
?
-Michael Wolf
Tahoe City, CA
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Michael,
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Flow x pressure = horsepower
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All 3 have to be considered together.? Sure, big pipe reduces pressure losses but at the same time reduces air speed.? Chunky materials can settle out on longer horizontal runs.? Speed is just as critical.? Most loss is produce by fittings and transitions and poor design.? Avoid 90's and couplings and keep hoses short. Don't neck down.? Seal even small leak points because they add up.? If this is a hobby shop with only one machine running at a time, size for the largest I.E.? belt sander. 5hp seems generous for most shops of double car garage size.? The performance curve is king.
?
Side note: Cement plants often have these giant 60 degree incline-decline ducts sticking up above most other equipment.? This design reduces accumulation of dust and maybe even blockage or possible collapse of the structure by overloading versus long horizontal runs.? A funny looking but cost efficient design.? A best balance point of compromises.
?
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Thanks for that correction¡I am far from an expert in fluid mechanics, so was having a difficult time trying to figure out why a larger-sized duct would have a greater static head. I can now return to knowing not that much about the subject!
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Open the inlet sheet metal of the dust collector to match your pipe. Then you don't have any restriction to worry about...
?
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I suppose I could potentially do that.? But I'm more inclined to purchase a dust collector that meets my needs out of the box.? Or maybe the phrase in this instance should be "off the pallet".? I doubt I'll buy a system with a 200mm inlet, they're generally more collector (including both price and size) than I really need.
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On Sun, Dec 22, 2024 at 07:47 AM, Jonathan Smith wrote:
Flow x pressure = horsepower
The formula oversimplifies reality, as horsepower is directed through impeller designs with different efficiencies.? And even for a given impeller design, the efficiency of pushing air is affected by atmospheric pressure.? Or to put it another way, you need a constant factor added into the equation that accounts for impeller design and atmospheric pressure.? A few hundred feet of elevation one way or the other doesn't make enough of a difference to worry about.? But here in Lake Tahoe, the ~1950m elevation makes a material difference.
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Any dust collector manufacturer worth dealing with will publish a fan-curve chart for the collector's performance at the inlet, which will allow one to avoid the need for test equipment to measure the static pressure of the collector, but those fan curve charts will be calculated for something close to sea level.? Better manufacturers will be able to supply a fan curve chart adjusted for a specific altitude.? For example, here's what Al-Ko has provided me for an 160P, with the sea-level and 2000m curves showing the drop in performance at my altitude:
?
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Not every vendor will offer that personal service, so the alternative is finding a reference for a static pressure adjustment factor for a given altitude.? Al-Ko's standard fan-curve is calculated at 400m altitude, while their adjusted chart shows a drop of about 500 Pa at my altitude.? Using the reference book adjustment factor of 1.27 increase in static pressure for my elevation, and you get a result that pretty closely matches their adjusted chart.? With either approach, it's then reasonable to use something like Bill Pentz's spreadsheet to estimate ductwork static pressure, and have a good chance of designing a dust collection system that will function as expected once purchased and installed.? I'm a one man operation, so the simplicity of planning for a single tool at a time works for me.? Bill's spreadsheet won't work for anyone designing a multi-tool collection system, as he acknowledges.? Even his advice for calculating dust collection for a single tool with multiple dust ports is a bit questionable.? Were I looking at a multi-tool collection system, I'd just bite the bullet and pay a professional to do the more complex math needed.
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Michael, You are correct.? Like PVT there are always other factors, sometimes known and sometimes unknown and even unknown unknown. That's why the curve is king.? I size fan systems for lumber dry kilns.? Fans and drives are sized based on the math and experience and we always round up or "oversize".? We normally use VFD's in lieu of across the line starters (both are similar cost) so speeds can be reduced when tuning the system on start-up.? This saves power operating cost, overdried pockets AND keeps us out of trouble with the customers.? Math is important but experience avoids problems and produces the most cost effective solution.?
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Betty Crocker used to add a note to the baking instructions for high elevations.? We live at 4000' where water boils at 204f so mostly ignore this factor.? I do take 1 club less on the golf course though.
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On Thu, Dec 26, 2024 at 08:18 AM, Jonathan Smith wrote:
I size fan systems for lumber dry kilns.
I don't have much experience drying lumber.? I assume the fan system is to replace the humid air with dry air, and maximize the rate water leaves the wood?
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We do have a golf course here in Tahoe City, but I've never tried playing.? There is an informal event here called the "Tahoe trifecta", which requires skiing, golfing, and surfing on the lake, all in a single day.? But I'm too old for those kinds of shenanigans.? :-)
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-Michael Wolf
Tahoe City, CA
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150mm duct with a 15" impeller @ 60hz simply works and no calculators required and it is proven by every unit I sold which was a lot of Clearvues. The 16" impeller Clearvue we specified with an 8" main duct and 150mm off that to each machine and the port on the machine for both size impellers needs to be opened up to 150mm at the machine for maximum air flow. There are a lot of CV's in Oz and they all work using those specs. These days I have a different view on things, I would use a 17" impeller with a 3 phase motor which would be controlled by a VFD for speed control. Doing that means you would get far more air flow than needed and then using the VFD the speed could be wound back on the motor and the air flow would still do the job but it would be a lot less noisy. I would not buy a single phase dust collector for a bet because the 3 phase motor and VFD combination offers so many advantages such as soft start, low speed air scrubbing when machines aren't being used, unlimited starts per hour etc. Just remember the smaller the impeller the noisier it will be because the motor speed needs to be higher so using an impeller which is effectively oversized means a slower running speed for an effective air flow.?
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David P. Best
Bryce Comer
imran
Jonathan Smith
Larry