I could make a go of it with a limited the Felder head but the Tersa head is blinding fast- like one minute to change out the blades.
As I said even the modest MiniMax has served well for me.
Time is important but more so simple ease.
I want the machines cutting wood and everything that keeps me in work flow is good.
|
Yep. There are lots of ways to view it. Both options are great. I just don¡¯t think one is more cost effective than the other. I can just turn one carbide segment if it gets chipped, Tersa is a quicker wholesale swap.?
On Mon, May 15, 2023 at 10:01 AM Jason Holtz < jholtzy@...> wrote: Andy Swapping knives in a Tersa head is a few minute operation vs. at least an hour plus rotating all the knives on a spiral head. I've heard of people with Tersa having a fresh set they'll just install for a final pass and then put the duller workhorses back in. Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture
612 432-2765
--
Jason
J. Holtz Furniture
|
Andy Swapping knives in a Tersa head is a few minute operation vs. at least an hour plus rotating all the knives on a spiral head. I've heard of people with Tersa having a fresh set they'll just install for a final pass and then put the duller workhorses back in. Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
612 432-2765 -- Jason J. Holtz Furniture 3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
|
One Tersa carbide head is retail at 20-150$+. For my planer it¡¯s 150$.?
It takes a few minutes to turn the segmented heads. You get 4 turns before the head is worn.?
You turn one carbide silent power segment, and while it may take longer. You have 4x the cutting life.
Time is money yes, a silent power cutter head potentially saves 4x Tersa changes or in my case 450$ per full blade change.?
I don¡¯t make 450$ per hour. ?
"Why would tersa be a better option vs Felder silent power?? With a carbide cutter you can just rotate the cutter¡.."
Because most people don't value their time at $0 / hr.
By the time you've rotated 2-3 segmented cutters and properly torqued them, the Tersa owner has knocked down a couple of wedges and replaced all 3 or 4 blades on his cutter head and is back to planing.?? So, the more often you need a new cutting edge,? the Tersa user banks time savings at an exponential rate.
I have not conducted a study or seen any data on whether a Tersa knife edge lasts longer than a segmented cutter edge or vice versa? - so I have to hedge my over all cost benefit judgement pending solid data.
D
|
"Why would tersa be a better option vs Felder silent power?? With a carbide cutter you can just rotate the cutter¡.."
Because most people don't value their time at $0 / hr.
By the time you've rotated 2-3 segmented cutters and properly torqued them, the Tersa owner has knocked down a couple of wedges and replaced all 3 or 4 blades on his cutter head and is back to planing.?? So, the more often you need a new cutting edge,? the Tersa user banks time savings at an exponential rate.
I have not conducted a study or seen any data on whether a Tersa knife edge lasts longer than a segmented cutter edge or vice versa? - so I have to hedge my over all cost benefit judgement pending solid data.
D
|
Andy,
¡possibly because it may be (I am guessing here) easier to install three indexed knives than to rotate 96 cutters?
|
Why would tersa be a better option vs Felder silent power?? With a carbide cutter you can just rotate the cutter¡..?
trboat/ to answer you¡¯re real question¡¡¡¡¡..
No , I don¡¯t think out of hand one can say there is a clear leader in combo machines.? Both makers have fine offerings with strengths and weaknesses.?
I believe TERSA is still available on both makes too.? So is a spiral cutter head with carbide segments.? I cannot say which would be better for teak processing - but I suspect the Tersa wins the more frequently you change cutters.?
D Sent from?iPhone On May 15, 2023, at 7:19 AM, David Luckensmeyer <dhluckens@...> wrote:
?
Warm regards,
Lucky
Dr David Luckensmeyer
Ah- sorry.
I will rein in my tendency to edit so as to provide as much accuracy as possible.
Once and done I promise.
|
trboat/ to answer you¡¯re real question¡¡¡¡¡..
No , I don¡¯t think out of hand one can say there is a clear leader in combo machines. ?Both makers have fine offerings with strengths and weaknesses.?
I believe TERSA is still available on both makes too. ?So is a spiral cutter head with carbide segments. ?I cannot say which would be better for teak processing - but I suspect the Tersa wins the more frequently you change cutters.?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On May 15, 2023, at 7:19 AM, David Luckensmeyer <dhluckens@...> wrote:
?
Warm regards,
Lucky
Dr David Luckensmeyer
Ah- sorry.
I will rein in my tendency to edit so as to provide as much accuracy as possible.
Once and done I promise.
|
Warm regards,
Lucky
Dr David Luckensmeyer
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Ah- sorry.
I will rein in my tendency to edit so as to provide as much accuracy as possible.
Once and done I promise.
|
Ah- sorry.
I will rein in my tendency to edit so as to provide as much accuracy as possible.
Once and done I promise.
|
Hi trboat (sorry I missed your name):
Every time you edit your post, I get another email into my inbox. An edit or two seems ok, but I¡¯m getting a lot of emails from you! ?
Warm regards,
Lucky
Dr David Luckensmeyer
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
[Edited Message Follows]
To simplify my search can we say out of hand that there is a leader in the combination machine offerings between Felder and SCM?
Looking at my shop I believe I would at minimum choose a saw/molder.
I have a 12¡± MiniMax J/P and would consider the five functions machines and sell the J/P.
This leaves me with looking at the KF and CF 500 or 700 machines as well as the equivalent machines from SCM group starting with the CU series.
The J/P I have is the modest ¡®Smart¡¯ 30 and honestly it has been a reliable workhorse for the ten years or so I¡¯ve had it in the shop.
If replacing I would like more width.
I Mill mostly teak so I like the Tersa head for its simple option of carbide blades.
Lets say I am going to buy used.
That leaves me really quite free to select as all of these machines are affordable but complicated sometimes by the evolution of features over time.
Felder redesigned the core blade system in the 700 series in 2007?
I guess I am looking at the CF741 vs CU410E as being the machines I would choose between as it stands.
|
To simplify my search can we say out of hand that there is a leader in the combination machine offerings between Felder and SCM?
Looking at my shop I believe I would at minimum choose a saw/molder.
I have a 12¡± MiniMax J/P and would consider the five functions machines and sell the J/P.
This leaves me with looking at the KF and CF 500 or 700 machines as well as the equivalent machines from SCM group starting with the CU series.
The J/P I have is the modest ¡®Smart¡¯ 30 and honestly it has been a reliable workhorse for the ten years or so I¡¯ve had it in the shop.
If replacing I would like more width.
I Mill mostly teak so I like the Tersa head for its simple option of carbide blades.
Lets say I am going to buy used.
That leaves me really quite free to select as all of these machines are affordable but complicated sometimes by the evolution of features over time.
Felder redesigned the core blade system in the 700 series in 2007?
I guess I am looking at the CF741P vs CU410C or CU410E as being the machines I would choose between as it stands.
|
Re: Update on Martin T32 Jointer/Planer
I have a tilting spindle moulder, a SCM TI145EP, I use the tilting feature, maybe 5% of the time??
|
Re: Update on Martin T32 Jointer/Planer
David and Scott,
I am not sure that the infeed roller is replaceable on my FS7.? The segmented infeed rollers I have will leave a mark if you take a very small pass on softer woods, but I would not say it is .5mm.
I planed a 19" wide table top for a friend this week that was cedar with epoxy in the center.? I took a few passes at 1mm but several at less than .5mm and we did not see any marks.?
The outfeed roller is easily replaceable, though I am not sure if I would except for long term maintenance.? I am an open book.? If anyone wants to see an FS7, feel free to come on by any time, I am in Southern California? I am not sure if there are any others in North America at this point.
PK
|
Re: Update on Martin T32 Jointer/Planer
One more benefit is that the dust extraction port stays on the right and you do not have to lower the planer table to do the changeover.?
PK, so when you are using the planer set at around 3/4 inch, and then you want to lower the jointer tables to use the jointer, you do not have to lower the planer table at all? ?With the Griggio-Martin, even though the dust extraction port stays on the right, you would have to lower the planer table to over 5 inches in order to do a changeover to jointer.
|
Re: Update on Martin T32 Jointer/Planer
Thanks for chiming in here Scott. ?I agree with you that the Martin T45 and T54 are clearly the best available jointer planer pair - if you have the floor space and the budget. ?The pair will certainly net out to $60K or more. ?In contrast the SCMI FS7 J/P is about half that in cost. ?No question that in my shop I do not have room for separates, and I assume the same is true of a lot of other users on here, even given the compact nesting arrangement that¡¯s possible with the Martin pair. ?So if I were looking to buy a 20¡± combination J/P machine today, the FS7 would be a delightful upgrade from my Dual 51. ?
But since I don¡¯t own and FS7, I can¡¯t comment about the feed rollers except to say that if you have a rubber outfeed roller (or two) and the infeed roller is properly adjusted, minor indentations coming off the infeed roller should be taken off by the cutterhead. ?The FS7 comes standard with a?helicoidal grooved steel infeed roller, but can be optioned to have a sectioned steel roller. ?I know Paul got the sectioned roller option on his machine, so maybe he can comment. ?
What I can comment on is that a rubber infeed roller will see plenty of degradation and chewed-away rubber in use - largely due to the sharp front edge of the material entering the roller and abrading the rubber. ?I consider a rubber infeed roller to be a consumable item. ?Shown below are the two feed rollers out of my Dual 51 the last time I had them removed for recovering. ?You can see that the infeed feed roller gets a lot more wear and tear (it¡¯s the one on the top in the photo):
David Best
DBestWorkshop@...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/collections/
https://www.youtube.com/@David_Best
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On May 14, 2023, at 7:17 PM, bespoken via groups.io <bespoken@...> wrote:
As many may know I am the Martin dealer for Southern CA. I had sold the Griggio machine to a couple of customers, and they were very happy with it. The machine was a 100% Griggio that was painted in Martin colors and imported by Martin USA. It was a popular machine, as many of the combination jointer planer machines had many disadvantages. This machine was heavy and well made. Martin decided to start making it in Germany and has been selling that in Europe. Since Martin has to abide by the UL listing rules, we would have to certify the electrical components to UL standards. This is important for liability reasons, and some other machinery manufactures do not do this for their machines that are sold here.
I was made aware that the SCMI machine is a virtual copy of the Griggio machine. Martin did add on the Aigner fence and an option for the SUVAmatic guard - both excellent additions to the machine. We are also making the cutterhead in house.
For Martin, we sell far more of the T45 and T54 machines over the combination machine. This is what Martin does best in the market, and is what most customers want. One customer who bought the combo machine since sold it and bought the T45 and T54 machines. He liked the machine, but separates are always going to be much faster and the machines are Martin quality.?
One issue that I did find with the combo was that you had to take off at least .5 mm of stock in order to remove the marks from the in feed roller. Having a rubber in feed roller would be ideal and this is what we use on the T45. You can run a piece through twice without changing the height and it will not mark it. ?I am not sure that the in feed roller on the SCMI can be changed out to rubber. But this may be an issue (David?).
|
Larry,
I ordered through Wurth.? They have the local business.
PK
|
Hi there. There¡¯s someone on this forum (check the posts under the #forsale tag) selling Felder saw-shaper and J/P machines. The seller is in CT. He has also cross-listed on Felder¡¯s used machines marketplace.
|
Re: Update on Martin T32 Jointer/Planer
As many may know I am the Martin dealer for Southern CA. I had sold the Griggio machine to a couple of customers, and they were very happy with it. The machine was a 100% Griggio that was painted in Martin colors and imported by Martin USA. It was a popular machine, as many of the combination jointer planer machines had many disadvantages. This machine was heavy and well made. Martin decided to start making it in Germany and has been selling that in Europe. Since Martin has to abide by the UL listing rules, we would have to certify the electrical components to UL standards. This is important for liability reasons, and some other machinery manufactures do not do this for their machines that are sold here.
I was made aware that the SCMI machine is a virtual copy of the Griggio machine. Martin did add on the Aigner fence and an option for the SUVAmatic guard - both excellent additions to the machine. We are also making the cutterhead in house.
For Martin, we sell far more of the T45 and T54 machines over the combination machine. This is what Martin does best in the market, and is what most customers want. One customer who bought the combo machine since sold it and bought the T45 and T54 machines. He liked the machine, but separates are always going to be much faster and the machines are Martin quality.?
One issue that I did find with the combo was that you had to take off at least .5 mm of stock in order to remove the marks from the in feed roller. Having a rubber in feed roller would be ideal and this is what we use on the T45. You can run a piece through twice without changing the height and it will not mark it. ?I am not sure that the in feed roller on the SCMI can be changed out to rubber. But this may be an issue (David?).
|
sure, just email me on timbershelf@...or face book search Albert Lee in Auckland
|
Jason Holtz
David Luckensmeyer
Albert Lee
PK
David P. Best